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21 Comments
Superb video with good amounts of info. Looking forward to see how this develops.
Interesting direction, I wasn't expecting that although I guess that you hinted at some interest in earlier comments. Everything looks pretty good with one very important exception which is something that I mentioned the last time that you were referencing S & T.
This key that I'm going to mention here is probably the biggest key that I have ever discovered in the golf swing and I find that it takes me from bad swings to excellent swings in seconds when I utlize it and also helps me to understand how to usably imitate any golf swing very quickly so I hope that you consider this carefully because I'm giving you a trade secret here.
This key is the motion of the lead arm and shoulder. In all good, and powerful, swings the lead arm moves in a particular fashion RELATIVE TO the lead shoulder path. That motion can be described as kind of a loop up, in, down, and out. The clubhead simultaneously does a similar loop around the longitudinal axis of the lead arm as the lead arm is following it's partcular motion. This is actually how the whipping motion of the clubhead evident in all great and powerful swings is created. However, I must reemphasize that this happens relative to the motion of the lead shoulder (joint) and it must be understood that lead shoulder motions in golf swings can be very different; something often not understood in golf instruction.
For example, the shoulder can move out and down, out and level, (even out and up is possible but rare), or in some cases (usually with arms a little away from the chest at address, which frees them to do this), the shoulder can just must move straight across or that and just slighly down. In Marcus Edblad's swing, he has his arms freed from his chest at address and then he stands up slightly and his lead shoulder essentially comes straight across and slightly down which allows his lead arm to follow a very tight path up his chest as he turns and then when he drops into more of a squat on the way down he has created more room on his trail side for the lead arm and clubhead to continue their looping motions. The sum total of this is to create a whip where the unfolding trail arm is able to perform this motion along the same lines of force as the swinging lead arm. This means that everything follows the lead arm with a slight (or sometimes bigger; Cameron Champ with driver for example) loop. This combination of complementary motions turns the arms club combo into a whip, or a kind of trebuchet. This also means that this "trebuchet" can be released through the ball in conjunction with the downswing turn of the hips which multiplies power. The most important role of the trail elbow in this process is to keep enough width in its motion in order to be able to drop in behind the motion of the looping lead arm and thus form the rear member of the trubuchet linkage.
Since the S & T swing does not move weight to the trail side, the motion of the lead shoulder socket traces a tighter loop than in standard swings. In Grant Waite's swing for example, the lead upper arm starts fairly close to his lead lat at address and then the lead shoulder comes out, down, and across so in a similar swing to his the lead arm arm will have to work out and across being fairly low at the start and then lifting rapidly as the turn deepens. In other words the lead arm reflects the path of the lead shoulder in the takeaway and while that is happening the clubhead is staying above the hands in order to perform its complimentary loop around the looping lead arm.
Saguto has his hands more freed from his chest at address and this slight difference has fairly big consequences. Generally, as with Marcus, this allows you to swing the club a little more directly around the body with a little less emphasis on lift (still very important though) and this is pretty much the principal difference that is seen between Saguto and Waite. In both cases though, the lead arm must move out and free itself in order to gain power and leverage. Saguto's happens on a little flatter plane than Waite's due to the freeer arms but the same lead arm and clubhead power loop is happening in both swings.
The lack of this kind of freed up lead arm motion (properly respecting the motion of the lead shoulder will make it hard to get much power in an S & T type motion and particularly as you get into longer shafts. Proper lead arm motion will also allow you to be able to utilize your hips more through impact as you release the "trebuchet". It looked to me that they only got to about 5-10 degrees open by iimpact in those swings. Let me know if have any questions. Cheers.
It will work for you if you turn around your left leg. If not, it won’t. Recommend you take a look at Mike Adams and Terry Rowles and their measurements and movement screens.
I liked the new series idea. I noticed that what you thought was less 1/2 or 3/4 quarter swing was pretty close to a full swing as far as club position at the top goes. Perhaps we’d all be better off taking what we perceive as a 3/4 swing.
I will keep my weight shift. S&T is a viable solution for those whom do not shallow the club in the downswing. You take it back shallow and bring it down on the same plane around a fixed axis. The shoulder tilt dictates the swing plane. Go see Tom he seems like a pretty cool guy. 😎
Do you have a slightly open stance with pw? And will the low point stay the same throughout all irons?
I think S&T has some attractive things but it didn't work for my back. Had some success with the irons but the driver was another story. I think S&T reintroduced the concept that older generation golfers did for years, but for some reason was lost in the 1980s. S&T reintroduced the concept that the shoulders in the backswing should not be level with the horizon. They were right! This lead to hip slides and the head moving too far off the ball which resulted in poor ball contact.
I am excited! I taught my Wife to play this way 7-8 years ago, she is still at it. We went to a 3 day school in Pennsylvania. I loved the way it compressed the irons. Honestly I have not compressed Irons like that before or since.I did feel like I lost some distance with my woods, driver. But they were still accurate. My issues started with back pain also. I finally gave up on it just so I could play golf. I probably was doing something wrong to cause the back issues. I have heard some can alleviate the back issue with the Gary Player walk through. I have been really struggling this year with solid contact on chips, pitches, and irons. So I am going back to it. I highly recommend the book as a reference also. I will be joining you in this renewed journey!
Can you try JuJu swing next?
Tried this swing, most complicated swing ever. Promotes way too many swing thoughts. But did lead me to the "Golf Machine". Lots can be learned about the movement of the body in the swing.
It works for all clubs and to be honest your own swing journey really started to look like stack and tilt. What I like about the system is no one will look the same. The idea is to reduce variables but you can add or take away. Ive been working woth it over a year now. Many say the driver is difficult but Ive never had an issue but to be fair ive always hit the ball high. For me what really makes all the difference is better bal control. These days I rarely take full swings my bread and butter is those punchy 1/2 abd 3/4 shots. Rmember the main thing with Stack and tilt is consistent low point and enough power to play the course. Average drive these days are 260. I can get it out there further but at that swing speed I am mor likely to keep it in play. Looking forward to this test.
I was playing my best golf with the stack and tilt until the ole back said nope no more stack and tilt for you. Had to over haul the whole thing and that was/is not easy. I will say even though the stack and tilt was straighter, the distance was pretty terrible. Since switching my 7 iron has went from 150-155 to 175-180. Anyway, I say all that to warn you about the awkward position it puts your spine in especially during the backswing.
For those of you who say you can't hit your driver with S & T, than don't use it. Like Jim Venetos says, it's hard enough to learn one swing. Iron and driver are always going to be two different swings. I use a mini driver, same as iron swing.
Tried stack and tilt, but my chiro steered me away from it. While it’s promoted to be a swing that is good for your back, it can actually cause more damage if not done correctly. Thanks for another great video!
Hey bro! SNT is an interesting thing. I have run down this rabbit hole a few times over the years. I am always enamored with the super quick improvement in flush contact and consistency with the irons. Its the think that pulls me back there some times. As I get older and struggle getting back to my left side it also alleviates that issue for me. That said for me, it starts to come apart with the driver specifically and to a lesser degree with my fairway woods. I lose distance with it, which I can't afford to lose these days. I am intrigued that you are taking a look at it and won't be surprised if you love it. I love the irons with it, just never could figure the other out. Hope you do!
Looking forward to watching this journey.👍🏻
Very much looking forward to this series! Remember: start left, stay left, finish left.
You seem to do well with all methods. Just wondering what has been your lowest handicap, even unofficially if not a Club member.
Not going to mention his name but he is probably the #1 biomechanical guy in golf. I bought his swingspeed device and had the opportunity to communicate with him when setting up my system. I asked him about S&T and he said he wouldn’t recommend it.
Would love to see a spreadsheet of the different aspects, pros and cons of the various golf swings.
Thank God you test all these things for us because my brain would be a hot mess with all these different swings going through my head 🤣