After a surprising upset in Mesa, Collin Johns is back on the PicklePod. He explains how the new Vulcan ball is affecting play and how the new serve rule has helped remove egregious faults from the game.
Collin recalls the few teams that have taken him and his brother Ben in the past three years and explains how those opponents were able to hand them an L. Learn what three drills CJ says are mandatory in an all-new episode.
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0:00 Colin Johns intro
3:38 A little word association
5:45 Breaking news
9:30 Early life at the Johns household
13:29 The famous nut shot
15:49 Collin’s first match the eye protection
18:32 Bodybag or net cord?
21:14 The bookcase that made Ben’s backhand
29:46 Frankensteining – Stealing shots from other players
33:16 The impact of the Vulcan ball
41:10 The loss the Gabe Tardio/Andrei Daescu
48:27 What’s it take to beat the Johns bros
53:36 Only three drills allowed
59:27 Collin’s role on the player council
1:08:14 The year of the drop serve
1:11:26 Consulting and myth-busting
You walk off the court you and Ben are talking do you sort of attempt to diagnose what what went wrong how you should have played it differently what oh there there’s no talking there’s no chance there’s no talking uh at that point it’s more like a funeral uh but uh
You can’t just go out and swing for the fences without a legitimate understanding of when and where you should attack CU I think that it’s thrown around a lot oh you have to play aggressive to beat Ben and Colin and I think that’s pretty clear if you’re
Gonna try to beat us in a dinking war I think that you’re gonna die very slow death but that’s a very serious answer that I don’t appreciate I’m glad we’re talking about this sort of thing yeah well let’s uh let’s keep going with that was it Nationals where you took that Nutshot he hit me up he said Ben and Colin aren’t playing he said the kids aren’t playing I forgot who else he said wasn’t playing he’s like you want to play Riley’s not playing James is out with injury so there there’s a pretty good uh sparse
Field more sparse so how does it feel so that means wait wait you did this didn’t you do this last year where or you played like one extra tournament one additional tournament than Ben so now you get to be number one player in the world in in the
Ranking well we would I would have to do well enough to surpass him which I can’t because he won with Matt in Kansas City which is a higher tier tournament than M ah yeah all right so you to get on the grind you got to get on a couple extra
Tournaments again yeah all right well we’re uh we’re live so we’re going to use that and we’re going to roll in but we’re trying something different today uh we’re going to start doing like formal intros I saw it on uh Shannon Sharp’s podcast I really liked it with
Johnny Manzel I’m like all right let’s do it so this is going to be the first one so that people who tune in and haven’t watched the show before or don’t know Colin which is not many people we’ll have a good background on who he
Is so Colin Johns is a former tennis pro turn pickle ball professional who made his pickle ball debut in 2018 he is currently ranked number two in men’s doubles number 26 in mixed doubles on the PPA tour and formerly ranked people don’t not many people know this in the
Top 10 of men’s singles he is the brother of number one ranked men’s doubles mixed doubles and men’s singles player Ben Johns together they have won over 25 men’s doubles titles to date his sister Hannah Johns is a broadcast host and commentator for the PPA tour Colin
Is also the co-owner and founder of pickleball 360 an instructional video-based business and a co-founder of the mobile coaching platform my pickle ball coach it’s his third time on the show he’s one of the most requested guests so Colin welcome to the show thank you with that intro sounds like
Something out of The Godfather like it’s just how many more Jones can we get in sport of pickleball um did I nail it is there anything else you would add in there I mean I think that that’s uh pretty concise and pretty good there former world number one doubles player
Former world number one yes yeah right then regained his rightful spot at the top when I injured my ailles last year yeah would you mess with him about that though I would all the time I would like print that out and put it in his room it’s not really something that uh we
Talk about he didn’t talk about it when I was number one I don’t talk about it when I lost the spot it’s just not really uh it doesn’t matter to us if we’re one and two that means we’re the top team and that’s what’s important it’s a cute
Answer I was going to say I don’t have a brother but I can’t imagine it would go down like probably wouldn’t with most but uh I can say that uh it’s all friendly uh cool all right well you open to playing uh a little word association word association this could get very
Interesting so I’ll give a word you don’t give a one-word answer instead give us the first thought that comes to mind the first thought that comes to mind how dangerous is this game like where are we going with this you can take it wherever you
Want I mean I’d say go risky go risky well that’s what would do what would Al top do also go risky uh all right ready all right Mesa poor visibility deckle big backand slide Matt right you can give like a phrase if you want too so like you have a thought or story
Delamination carbon net cords infuriating Ben uh the best Riley the best friend the not best friend Major League pickleball uh entertaining table tennis um fun pickle ball influencers uh variety Tim Nelson Legend US Open uh OG tournament good job Colin very very well done first ever I like that yeah that
Was that was good feel like feel like you should have somebody on that will be a little bit more risky than that yeah I love the curveball there in the middle you had to help me out you just start laughing um I want to know what your
Real thought was when that yeah I’m sure people would pay money to uh to know the real thought there uh all right well before we jump on how much money is it cuz we can we can negotiate this right now I mean depending on how many fines I get for uh
Cursing uh we can take those away 20 bucks yeah it’s 20 bucks it’s not that much 20 bucks is 20 bucks yeah it’s for a good cause anyway it is for a good cause all right you walked in here and said right before you came in you got some
News Yes actually literally in the the past hour there have some been some developments and this is the way it goes in pick a ball where you know things are always moving uh I did not plan to play Minnesota um it’s always cold there I don’t love the conditions um but James
Got injured at the last tournament and uh Matt texted me this morning and asked if I would be interested in playing with him in that tournament and also taking over james’ normal mix partner uh in a bright as well so obviously that’s a pretty tantalizing offer um you get to
Go and play a pick ball tournament for a few days with two of the best players in the game and you know just to change it up something fun um certainly it’s been a while since I’ve had um that high a rank mixed partner so I think that I
Might be looking forward to playing with Anna as as much or more than playing with Matt and Matt and I have gotten on really well over the years um and I think it’s just going to be a lot of fun to to change it up and uh do something
Different cool I like it we’ve got some news too that was breaking right before we we hopped on here so by the time this airs which will be Friday I’m sure this will have circulated there may be um a contract signed but but as of now it sounds like
The major league pickleball board approved the merger last night which was the biggest sticking point the discrepancy in terms of philosophies amongst the owners and it’s likely going to uh an owner’s vote this afternoon so the board approved so then the owners vote to essentially ratify it right do
We know what majority they need to get is it just a simple majority or I don’t know it’s a good question from I mean this is a little while ago so things could have changed like I think it was a just an outright majority and I think
There’s 20 eligible voting teams so they need 11 of the 20 teams to to vote in favor of something like this that’s how I understood it at the end what are the other four teams that don’t get a vote the other four teams would be the like
The vibe expansion teams um cuz there was yeah there something to do with like last year’s uh failed merger I guess or whatever that was 2022 merger they’re basically a couple of teams like Utah black diamonds that are owned by you know the parau family that don’t get a
Vote in this at least that’s how it was in December I’m somewhat out of the loop at this point so it would be pretty funny to have those teams voting too because considering that it’s a merge with the PPA and the partz are definitely owners of the PPA it would be
Funny hey do you want to vote for or against does the deal sound good from your perspective or not yeah I don’t know I don’t I’m not super up to date so that’s a that’s a good update I mean I think we’re we’re running up against uh against some
Deadlines here to get to get paid so yeah the the major league pickall players I know have been uh waiting a while you being one of them to uh to receive payment so obviously it would be great to get this all through and get things moving get people paid and move
Forward mhm definitely is that a conversation that players are having like when the hell are we going to get paid what do we do well certainly you hear about it in the player tent from from every now and then it’s uh you know some players don’t have an unlimited
Budget depending on their their sponsorship or the job that they work outside of pick ball so uh for some people it it becomes a more pressing issue as time goes along for obvious reasons so um you certainly hope for their sake that they get paid soon yeah interesting all right well we haven’t
Had a development in a while we’ll see if they finally close this thing um um let’s do uh something a little bit different so we’ve had you on before we haven’t really talked about like your background and so I want to kind of take it back to Maryland and ask what was it
Like growing up in the John’s household I know you had ton of siblings I believe you were all homeschooled yeah what was that environment like yeah that’s definitely a real throwback all the way to Childhood uh I would say that we had a very unique upbringing um being
Homeschooled our whole lives and we had six kids in the house at that time um I’m one of seven but my little sister didn’t arrive until 13 years after my youngest sister so she came after I was out of the house and most of us were out
Of the house so um it was mostly just the six of us and for those of you who don’t know um we’re all two years apart so when I was 10 I had 8-year-old um sister Hannah uh Lily was six Ben would have been four and then my sister would
Have been two and a baby so um there’s a pretty ordered spread there um which makes a lot of fun you have sisters you have brother uh Ben being my only brother we spent a lot of time uh together playing out in the the yard playing some backyard whiffle ball or
Just playing really anything um whether it was video games and and that’s what sort of uh set the table for for later on for sports and we didn’t know at the time but uh pickle ball um because he was 6 years younger than me he was always trying to play catchup with me
And my friends which was always fun to include him him um but I think that made him tougher and that’s uh that’s part of the reason uh he turned into the uh the person the player that he is today yeah but uh the sisters played a really big
Part as well they were always very supportive of uh whatever Ben and I were doing um they would s my baseball games for hours on end so they were real Troopers in that sense and they grew up playing some sports as well um softball a little bit of tennis and then they did
Girly stuff with Irish dance and all that sort of stuff so yes of course the uh the John’s family definitely uh we socialized but it wasn’t in the normal sense of school we did did it through Sports and uh other activities right so your sisters would come watch you play
Like your whole family would show up to these baseball games and whatnot yep for the longest time pretty much everyone turned up at the baseball games and that was when we were all a little bit younger but and played baseball as well and then later on they would come to the
Tennis tournaments some of the time um so I definitely uh appreciate all those times looking back where you’re just little sisters you’re like do we really have to go to another baseball tournament this weekend and just sit in the Sun and uh definitely uh they were good sisters yeah they’re Troopers not
That they had much of a choice but so out of curiosity were you ever hit by like a baseball oh yeah yeah definitely it’s not a great feeling especially compared to a pickle ball pickle ball is Small Potatoes compared to a ball that’s coming fast it’s a lot heavier un
Fortunately it didn’t have it happened too many times but uh definitely something that happens once in a while that is is not something that I regard as a as a good memory so what was the uh you know we’ve seen the reaction to getting hit from a from a pickle ball uh
What’s the reaction to getting hit by a baseball I would say in that it’s more shock and to make sure that you’re physically okay um if it hit you in a bad spot I it’s heav enough ball to where it can do some damage you obviously have to wear a helmet um some
Players protect their Shin or their elbow so just taking a second Shake It Off make sure you’re okay and you’re just a little shock that it happened rather than and pickle ball you kind of know it’s going to happen from time to time it’s just part of the game um and
It’s less about it being dangerous as it being very annoying sure sure so it’s less annoying in baseball it hurts more but like you still throw your helmet and stuff or no no that didn’t happen okay I’m just trying to get a sense you’re just trying to take a second to to get
Your bearings make sure everything’s all right and then you move on that’s a very serious answer that I don’t appreciate I’m glad we’re talking about this sort of thing yeah well let’s uh let’s keep going with that was it Nationals where you took that nutshot no the the uh that was Del was
The famous uh nutshot was in Del it was actually an AP tournament I want to say it was 2021 and it was the very first point of the gold medal match full Stadium of people live stream we’re playing Pat and Jay and for the record Ben’s the one who
Popped the ball up he hit it nice and high to Pat Smith’s forehand and for those of you who have never seen Pat Smith he’s a very Burly German gentleman that can swing very hard at the ball and he said it was quote the cleanest forehand I hit of the whole tournament
And it hit me directly in the lower extremities which did not feel good and I spent at least 10 minutes on the ground it was not a great way to start a gold medal match um but we did come back and win the match so yeah it did cost us
The first game I was I was hurting were you just were you in shambles for the rest of the game or what how did how did the rest of that like play out well I told Ben that for laughing at me while I was on the ground yeah as any brother
Would be um he better step up and play better because I’m hurting you popped up the ball you’re responsible for this and on top of that you’re laughing at me you better actually bring it did he so he didn’t bring it well enough in game one
In game one it wasn’t enough but after that we rolled I think it was like four and four so he did a good job all right we’ll take it were you in coming out of the the Winner’s side too so you had a little cushion we were yeah double
Elimination in those days I think we had beaten Steve and deal in the Winner’s bracket final and then Pat and Jay had beaten them in the bronze to get to us so yeah we would have still had a game to 15 you’re G to you’re going to see
That clip again because we’re definitely clipping that the world doesn’t need to see that oh no they do they most definitely do I may or may not have that one saved in my phone just TR remember what not to do the pat teases me he’s like yeah you better check uh protect those
McNuggets when you play me so you got accent now these well I can’t do the pet Smith accent it’s half kiwi half German with a little bit of English thrown in but uh I know now to keep the paddle up and in front of the important things
Maybe just the paddle is down well it’s down it’s not up it’s more down you are correct there we go normally people protect the face I protect that so are you going to bring back bring back like the helmet or the cup or any of that
Stuff from the baseball days I mean you got to start to think about it with as much as uh people people are pegging these days it’s just uh it’s getting a little out of control we might need to at least bring some protective eyewear in all seriousness but uh yeah why not
Show up with a cup and a helmet I think you can just stay in there you have no fear of getting hit I mean I recommended a deal on the daily there we go I mean it would send a message if somebody showed up in a full helmet like cup all
That like bunch of padding on be like yeah people are hitting the ball hard now it is interesting Mesa we saw a lot more people with with eyewear yes and I can say in Mesa this last tournament was the first professional match I’ve ever played an entire match
With protective eyewear on oh did you and it was in my second round of mixed we were playing outside and it’s very bright it’s hard to see so I have a pair of glasses that are slightly tinted so it was also because I wanted it to be
Less bright but I also have been really trying to get used to wearing protective eyewear so for the past couple months I pretty much been wearing protective eyewear in every single practice uh just to try to get accustom to it and I had not done it in a tournament cuz I still
Feel like I’m not 100% used to I feel like it still affects my vision just a little bit um but I wanted to see if I could do it for a match uh particular particularly because it was going to help in that bright sunlight and I was
Able to do it I didn’t really seem to affect me so I’m hopeful to be able to wear protective eyewear all the time at some point and you look at somebody like Anna Lee I was talking to her mom about it and obviously hers our prescription
But she said that it doesn’t affect at this point she’s been wearing them for so long that um it would be actually worse for her to not wear the glasses and wear contact so clearly you can get used to it it’s just a matter of time um
So I’m really trying to do that in practice just because of the scare that I had at Nationals especially um where Ben deflected the ball off his paddle into my temple it missed my eyes but in a different case scenario that could have been really bad and the only place
You can get really hurt by a pickle ball is directly in the eye so protective eyewear just protects you and you feel safer and when I’ve been wearing them in practice I just feel a sense of security that I don’t have um when I’m not wearing them H yeah that’s fair you can
Stand in there and Flinch a little bit less too like if you’re not worried about getting hit anywhere yeah obviously if you get hit in the face it’s not fun but you’re not going to be seriously hurt the only place would be the eyes we got to get you a sponsorship
With uh like Rya eyewear or something like that I’ll work on that for you well Yola is actually investigating that space um so we’ve been testing some prototypes so we’re hopeful that we can uh have something that Ben and I both like very soon interesting what don’t
What don’t they do they do everything what what uh what pisses you off more a net cord that lands in or getting body bagged a net cord that lands in it’s just so annoying especially if they’re pulling the trigger from somewhere they really shouldn’t be like
If someone just swings as hard as they can from midcourt when the balls in their shoelaces and then it Clips the top of the tape and goes right over your paddle like they deserve to lose the point and they win the point they get get a winner out of it that just
Infuriates me versus getting body bagged honestly getting body bagged is part of the game as long as you’re not head hunting and you’re trying to hit somebody above the shoulders that’s not cool as long as you’re going for the body at the pro level it’s fair game
Like you understand that you have to be able to read people’s attacks and have the skill of getting out of the way um I don’t think that it should turn into dodgeball per se but it is part of the game and you have to accept it and
Sometimes you’re going to get hit so be it mhm what are your views on that being like a low percentage shot versus like going for it I mean I have mixed feelings about it like I said you can’t go head hunting that’s not cool but as far as legitimate play depending on who
You’re playing it’s something you really need to implement if you look at somebody like deal I mean we got to pick on Deal after that podcast interview absolutely uh he’s a big guy he likes to stand in and he doesn’t try to leave a lot of out balls um so when you know
That ahead of time you got a nice big Target and it’s very hard to catch up to the ball every time and deal might say that he can catch up with his backhand counter to almost everything um but it is pretty difficult it makes the shot
Quite difficult um so you have to beware when you’re playing somebody like that CU maybe he leaves it or maybe he gets a hold of the counter anyway but the threat of that shot really makes the other shots that much better um so I do
Think it’s a legitimate play it can be a higher risk shot if you’re playing somebody who leaves out balls really well um somebody who’s smaller in stature I remember Adam Stone I can’t remember that if that guy ever got hit cuz he’s smaller he was good at reading
S he was squirly he was so hard to hit and uh it would be annoying because you’d hit what you thought was a good attack and he just kind of duck down and the ball would go out and uh if you’re playing somebody like that you can’t
Really go body bagging as much yeah and I like to think I read people’s paddles pretty well to where I can leave a lot of those balls and not get bagged as much um certainly stature has a lot to do with it if you’re playing Eric Lang
That’s a much bigger Target Jay deiler bigger Target so those guys are more the targets of the body bags um but it does make for interesting viewing at times yeah no definitely does okay I saw on I don’t know if we talked about it on our
Podcast or I saw it from a clip of another podcast but you talked about going back to your childhood you guys had uh a ping pong table in the basement up against a wall in a peculiar peculiar way and you were talking about how the positioning of that table forced either
I think you and Ben to hit certain like uh style of shot that translated into a shot you guys using in pickle wall yeah so we had a ping-pong table in our basement and I think it might have been on this podcast that we talked about it
At one point um but to reiterate again we had the ping pong table in our basement where a bookcase was up against one side of the table on the far side um so basically a right-hander’s backhand side and traditionally in table tennis the forehand is the more dominant shot
You’re going to be more aggressive with it and you would run around and move to your back inside to hit forehands um but because the bookcase was there it got in the way and as the older brother I would make Ben take the bad side I would say
You’re going to go over there on the bookcase side and what he had to do to adjust was to hit more backhands and not that it necessarily taught him the backhand technique but it did force him to hit more backhands simply because he was obstructed by that bookcase um so we
Have a good picture of it and actually I think the picture of it the bookcase has moved further away than it used to be it actually used to be closer than that but I think that had that bookcase not been there it’s quite possible that Ben would have played a more dominant forehand
Game and not develop the backend role that he now uses to great effect on the pickall court so that’s why a lot of people really enjoy that story interesting what do you CLI that what do you think was uh what do you think was more formative in your pickle ball uh
Skill your time playing tennis or your time playing ping pong I think they both have distinct benefits I don’t think that I would be the player or Ben would be the player without both of those Sports I think that as of right now if I could pick any two background Sports to
Create the perfect player I would have to choose tennis and table tennis and merge those two um of course we haven’t seen other combinations whether it be bad Mitten Etc but I think those together hold a lot of value um I would have to pick tennis as the more
Important one just because the racket skills you develop um the overall stroke production of something like groundstrokes and just general coordination Vision moving with your partner Etc um you can’t really substitute the skills that you gain from tennis if you look at somebody like Jack sock um the guy’s an amazing athlete
He’s got great racket skills from tennis um and clearly they translate well to a pickleball court or can translate well I do think those are enhanced by other skills that you can acquire from table tennis so something like the stroke production of rolls very similar to
Table Tennis um you have a paddle um and pickle ball similar more similar to a table tennis paddle than a tennis racket and something as simple as recognizing Spin and knowing how it affects the ball on your paddle face that came relatively natural uh to me and Ben because of the
Table tennis background and we didn’t even really think about it oh if you receive slice you’re going to get more Top Spin and here’s the adjustment adjustment you should make um so people coming from tennis may or may not quite grasp that in the same way and I do
Think that people are getting educated more in the pickleball sense where a tennis player comes in and they start to get to know that just by playing pickle ball but I do think that table tennis was very valuable as well yeah as it comes to as it pertains to like the
Slice I didn’t know that coming from tennis really like you do kind of get taught a little bit hit up a little bit more on slices in tennis but I never really knew the the why and it also didn’t impact things a ton yes but then now here with with pickle ball paddles
Somebody slices it to you you basically can just kind of hit straight up yeah you can really really uh go after it as a result of it yeah and you’ve seen the slice returns almost disappear at this point where you just don’t want to give them that much backspin with as much Top
Spin as they can create on a roll drop or drive and before if you look back 3 four years ago the slice return was probably the preferred return I can remember when Ben would almost always slice his backand Matt Wright had a pretty heavy slice Wes Gabriel’s then as
A throwback those were all Heavy sliced returns that were hard to control because you didn’t have the same sort of spin potential on the paddles um so you couldn’t use the spin against them as much um but yeah in tennis you you would hardly ever apply that concept the only
Time I could really think of applying it on a tennis court would be if you’re stepping into a Top Spin shot that’s coming at you and cutting down on the ball for a drop shot and you’re getting the ball to spin back towards you a little bit more that’s the only time I
Could really think where it would really work to your benefit otherwise the amount of spin you can get from the strings just overwhelms basically anything else MH so what do you think like is what benefits are there of of table tennis versus tennis and I know
You went into that a little bit but I’m talking specifically like you know tennis you obviously have the ground strokes the moving with the partners table tennis you have the the backhand roll shot like are there any other s specific shots that that you think table tennis is very helpful for table tennis
I think the top few benefits would be like I said the rolls so not just the backand roll but also the Top Spin roll and the orientation of the hand when it contacts the ball so to keep the ball in on a table tennis table you really need
To close your paddle face more it’s almost completely closed on some shots in order to get the ball down enough to make the table and if you account for the height of the table and the height of the net the net is actually the same exact height as a
Pickleball uh court and interesting I didn’t know that and then also if you stand right at the end of a pickle ball hold on the you’re saying proportionally proportionally so it’s something called counter height which is quite common across many things but when you account for the height of the table the height
Of the net it’s the same height in inches as a pickable net off the ground and get this the same thing is true if you stand at the back of a ping pong table and you don’t reach over the table if you make contact right at that length
Your distance to the net is almost identical if you’re standing behind the kitchen line and Reaching Forward into the kitchen if you’re relatively tall so as long as your wingspan is pretty good somebody like Ben is hitting his backhand roll from the exact same
Distance to the net as he would be on a ping pong table give or take I mean to just have that in your back pocket like a a throwout fact yes it’s it’s something I’ve given some thought to but clearly there are some very big similarities um between pickle ball and
Table tennis I think that’s the single biggest one um so the stroke production because of all those facts are going to be quite similar and in table tennis spin is I’m not going to say it’s everything but it’s so so important like if you can generate just a little bit
More spin that can be the Difference Maker in pickable I view it a little bit differently it’s that spin is such a commodity in the sense that it’s hard to generate it because of the equipment that you’re playing with even the carbon fiber paddles that we play with now um
Trying to hit a smooth plastic ball with lots of spin is difficult um you can only get so much of it so if somebody gives you an opportunity to create more like a slice you really want to take advantage of that because now that means
You can get just a few more RPMs on the ball which is already hard enough to do and somebody’s just giving it to to you um that’s a massive Advantage so that would be the other thing that I already mentioned that I think tablet has really helped us understand is when a
Particular spin comes at you and that applies to Back Spin Top Spin and side spin um if you think about the way the ball checks when it’s delivered to you based on a particular angle that’s something that can also be used on a pickle ball CT so if the ball’s being
Hit to you from your left and then you hold the paddle flat where is the ball going to rebound to it’s going to rebound more to your right so just knowing the angles of the spin the paddle where you want to put the ball it’s all very similar and when you have
That familiarity um not to mention the great reflexes you need um when you play table tennis you can transfer that so easily to um pick a ball when you when you and Ben are hanging out do you guys like talk about this stuff I wouldn’t say that we talk about
It on the regular but certainly we bounce ideas off each other I would say I’m probably more active about bringing it up in the first place um but Ben always likes to discuss it whether it’s a new shot or new strategy or just experimenting um Ben was the one that
Was experimenting with different shots before I even started pick a ball and he’s like oh I I like this shot that somebody hit and was like oh Marson was trying this or you know Aspen Curr was trying that and I really like that shot
And I kind of wanted to to try it mimic it and um he called it frankensteining so he’s been doing that for a long long time um trying out different shots and you see it even now his uh his two-headed backand looks a heck of a lot
Like James ant’s backand and uh that’s definitely something that he looked at what James had and he’s like I think I can make this work for me and I think that’s something that we’ve both done over the years that has been beneficial kind of keeps the ideas flowing and
Definitely makes for some good conversations okay then you’re probably well I saw him I saw him doing I saw Ben doing the some Riley for a little while like lifting up that oh the elbow raise the elbow raise he he’s gone away from that recently yes he you can remember
When he used to do that though and I don’t know why it’s so effective but wait talk about that break down what what you’re talking about so when Riley pulls off the bounce or sometimes he fakes it he will raise up his left elbow a little bit so sort of flapping it up
Like he’s doing the chicken dance MH and for whatever reason it’s deceptive and it fools a lot of people they’re not really sure what he’s about to do and obviously it only has so much to do with the actual shot he’s about to hit but it’s almost like a shiny object hey look
Over here while I hit the shot into your body and a lot of people can’t pick up the ball very well as somebody who’s played in front of him for years I can tell you that it takes him getting used to um so there was a time when Ben would
Experiment with that and he did comment that it seems to get people I don’t know why it is but it does seem to get people more often than not I think it gets people because they expect that it’s going to do something but if you take
That out of your mind mind that it actually doesn’t do anything yeah you’re good but it works it does work um anything you’re experimenting with anything that you’re trying to emulate from another player oh there are lots of things that uh I wish that I had or that
I start to emulate uh the anal two-handed Inside Out roll is something that i’ love to have so so backhand Inside Out roll so as a dink when she’s playing with Ben and Ben when he rarely doesn’t take a middle ball she has this nasty twohand backand roll inside out
Which I just don’t have that shot I would love to have that shot I’ve experimented a little bit with it I’m not anywhere close to as good as she is with it but it’s something that I feel like would benefit me in certain situations and certainly if I’m playing
Mixed from the right it could be a very beneficial shot you see people like James O’Reilly use it from that side to great effect um so that was one that I was experimenting with more last year um among other shots I think that it just it sort of keeps everything fresh when
You’re working working on a new shot and if somebody does something particularly well I think that you’re well served by starting to imitate it a little bit and putting your own spin on it doesn’t have to look exactly the same but a lot of times you can learn something from the
Other players that do a shot particularly well all right talking about like shot types RPMs how you can manipulate the ball what are you how are you feeling about the new Vulcan ball and how have you had to adjust to to play that more effectively yes the the Vulcan ball so
Clearly we had been playing with the dura as the main ball for a long time before that and I would say the dura up to this point has been the best ball just because one everyone’s used to it but it also generally stays in round is pretty predictable we had some issues
With the quality control with it not staying in round at times um but overall I would put it as the ball that was most preferred by the pros overall um the V ball came in and clearly they’ve been developing this for a while and it has
Some real positives to it I really kind of like how it feels on the paddle um it’s easy to see with the green color um the spin the speed I all don’t mind those things and the only one issue that it has right now or it seems to have for
The first three tournaments is it does seem to go out of round quite quickly um or it’s subject to that depending on the conditions um I do know that vam was working to fix that issue um so we’re hopeful that the balls can stay round at least for longer we’ve been rotating the
Balls out after every single game so certainly that does help that only needs to last you know 10 to 20 minutes um before it’s going to be cycled out um so we’re all hopeful that the Vulcan ball can continue to be used and improve as time goes along so you would anticipate
Them coming out with some sort of variation of the current ball it’s certainly very possible I know that they’re looking into different things they can do um the durability meaning the out of round problem is something they they recognize that they can improve and certainly the feedback from
The players has been uh good in some ways and then in that particular way it’s a little bit lacking um so creating a good ball is not an easy task and we’re not saying it is but clearly they want the feedback um the PPA wants feedback on really anything equipment
Related whether it’s paddle testing or uh the ball that they use um so the players have been vocal in their feedback and I think that’s helpful can create an even better bow interesting I don’t know Tyler said that they don’t go out around well he might be biased
Considering he is sponsored by Vulcan I’m just going to point that out who’s to say honestly um do you think that you know I think we have seen an inordinate amount of upsets so far this year would you would you agree with that I guess I’d have to look at past
Years as well to really say yes or no but we can say that yes there have definitely been some upsets that you would not expect um in the first three tournaments it’s not like everything has gone according to plan sure do you think do you think this change of ball is
Contributing to that at all I would definitely say it could be a factor um the ball that you play with has a much bigger effect than you would think especially in the different weather conditions so you might think oh well you play with this new ball for a week
Or two and it’s relatively easy to get used to I mean look at what the pros did at Nationals or US Open they they can adjust to the Franklin ball no problem there was that week last year where we had to have that basically 3-day turn turnaround between MLP and Nationals
We’re using a completely different ball that being said I do think that it takes more time to get used to using a bow in a variety of conditions um whether it’s dry whether it’s humid whether it’s cold whether it’s hot it’s not like you can just reprogram the feel you have for the
Ball in every environment that takes time and then also trusting it under pressure uh we’ve been playing with the dur ball for years now like we know exactly how it performs in basically every condition whether it’s humid um dry cold hot somewhere in between it’s it really does affect the ball and and
You can talk about this as well it’s it changes how you play play the game it changes how it feels on your paddle and certain players do better than others um in different conditions I mean somebody like Matt Wright loves when the ball is cold when it’s fast and he plays well
Indoors um versus somebody like myself I like the ball to be a little bit slow I always play relatively well with the Franklin ball or a soft Dura ball um I feel like it suits my style so it makes a difference and I think that’s something that’s a little bit overlooked
When the ball is changed it’s you can’t get used to it in a week or two because you’re not going to be playing with it under pressure in a variety of different conditions do you think so you think that’s potentially contributing to some of these upsets just because nobody’s
Used this is the first time everybody’s played with this ball at the the Hyundai Masters or Mesa with a more sort of slippery court or Desert Ridge I mean you know those were the conditions between those three tournaments were pretty similar I’d say they’re all like somewhat West Coast dry desert
Conditions yeah I would say Mesa was definitely the warmest of those I when I played outside during the day the ball was definitely the softest much softer than Desert Ridge or at the Masters so that did very a little bit but we haven’t been to somewhere like Florida
Where it’s been really hot and humid and to see how the ball react so it’ll be interesting to see when we do that how does the ball play um but to answer your question I do think it it has something to do with the upsets anytime you level
The playing field whether it’s changing the ball or changing the paddles or making it really windy where it’s a new condition that not everyone is used to I think that levels the playing field enough to where the teams that are not favored have a better chance to win mhm
One more one more question about the ball at least for me I don’t know what you have Tommy but what how would you other than the the out of round or versus breaking how would you compare the way this plays to Aura and let’s say Obviously we know that conditions is is
Huge but in perfect indoor conditions how would you compare a the Vulcan ball to uh the the dura I would say I do have to play with it more to have a really good thorough understanding of it but here’s my take on it in particular conditions cuz I
Don’t know that you could say perfect conditions because perfect conditions mean a set of conditions so let’s just say a colder faster environment so like what you’re saying when we play in Minneapolis with the ball how is the ball going to play I would say it’s relatively rubbery so it really tends to
Play fast and rebound quite a bit so that is conducive to aggressive play um the spin is quite good so when the ball is cold and it’s fast conditions it may play faster than a maybe not but I would say it’s at least very close and then if
The ball gets very soft So based on what I played with in Arizona and Mesa outside when in the sun I would say that it plays actually softer than Aura so whatever the conditions are I feel like they’re accentuated when you play with the Vulcan ball if it’s cold it plays
Really fast if if it’s warm it plays very slow so I’ll have to play with it more but that would be my take on it right now it seems like it’s more weather dependent it is more weather dependent than than the dura I would say I’ve had a similar experience with
Faster in cold conditions slower in warm conditions but still pretty limited sample size yes limited sample size and for those of you listening it might sound a little extreme like how much could the ball really affect Play It’s really it comes down to reaction time because when you’re talking split
Seconds if the ball is marginally faster if it’s 5% 10% faster when you’re talking you know a quarter of a second that starts to make a difference and that can be a difference between getting your paddle on the ball or not and a match being one and loss so that’s the
Reason I feel like the ball is so important as well as something like the power of paddles Etc okay Dura in 30 degrees versus Dura in 100 degrees in humidity how much faster as a percentage is the ball coming at you kitchen line to Kitchen line man I hope I don’t throw
A bad estimate out there it feels to me like 20% faster I could that could be a little much maybe it’s closer to 15% but to me it feels significant and to me 20% would be in the neighborhood of of what it feels like yeah that’s fair I I I was thinking
A quarter like it is it’s a huge difference between 30 to I feel like over 85 it’s all the same pretty much yeah but yeah the the conditions are enormous and how the ball plays no doubt do you want to take this opport opportunity to blame your loss to tardio
And Andre on the ball well I don’t want to to blame anything first thing should be to uh congratulate those guys on playing a great match I mean they came out with a good game plan they they played aggressive um they played inspired they were enthusiastic energetic from the
Start um clearly were known to be slow starters and I think part of their game plan was knowing that and trying to take advantage of that um so you know you’re playing a best out of three pick a ball match and the team that comes out um
With energy and and catches a few shots early can really carry that into the rest of the game and the rest of the match um so uh credit to them for coming out and and playing that well and they not only beat us but they carried that
Momentum into the next match because a lot of times you can have a let down after you have a big win and then lose in the quarterfinals and they beat Pat and Jay and not only that they went on to beat Riley and Thomas in the semis so
Um they had a great run um they both played well and uh well done to them so in retrospect you walk off the court you and Ben are talking do you sort of attempt to diagnose what what went wrong how you should have played it differently what are those oh there
There’s no talking there’s no chance there’s no talking uh at that point it’s more like a funeral uh but uh certainly you can learn things from certain matches and I don’t feel like this one in particular is one that we need to review we kind of know what happened and
Uh what we would need to do better next time certain matches it could be a little bit more of a strategy change so if you think of back when Riley and Matt used to play together they would literally completely change sides for a whole match where Riley would play one
Match on the right and then he play the next one on the left which really drastically changes how the match is going to flow so depending on the outcome of the match we would definitely have a discussion hey what did you like what did you not like in this formation
Against this team um in a matchup like that you’re going to have more discussion versus a match like this you’re probably going to have less discussion you ever have a loss and you and Ben go back to the house and throw it up on the TV and watch back and talk
Through it that is never wants to happen really that’s not going to happen uh at that point you’re both competitive and it hurts to lose and you need to take a little time you I mean you’re not going to let it affect your week but for the next
Hour or two you’re you know not happy so right you kind of let it it for a bit and then after that you can start to think about what you could do better next time all right since you won your first PPA Mesa 2021 do you have off the top of your
Head all the teams you’ve lost to since then in men’s Devils you and Ben as a team I could get pretty close I think well we do so go oh you do oh this is an exam of types yeah so including that tournament in Mesa sure
So we lost that day in the quarterfinals to Tyler and Spencer right so when you wion that first title you came back around we came back around Tyler and Spencer yes not the team that people picked as the one to to take us down in that tournament but fortunately we had
That second chance to come back around so the rest of that year Ben played quite a bit with Matt that year so I’m trying to remember if we lost at all in that in that 2021 Year I’ll come back to that but for 2022 we lost four times I believe or no
Six times we lost six times uh we lost four times to Matt and Riley in that year uh our other two losses would have come to JW and Dylan um on that windy day in Florida and the other one there was one other one would have been Tyson and Jay
At Nationals where we also had the opportunity to come back and double dip so those were our six losses that year the following year would have been last year we lost four times we lost the first match of the year to Philip laer and Ben n MH oh yeah also not a team
That you would expect us to lose to uh they routed Us in two games in the second round uh we lost to Pat and DJ in the quarterfinals of Seattle so they played a good match there we lost to JW and Dylan When I had my bruis
Achilles in the final of DEA excuses making excuses just facts just facts they beat us fair and square because I walked out in the court that day and that means you’re ready to play uh and then our other uh loss of that year was Wyatt Stone and JN Martinez Vic and
Obviously this past weekend we lost to Andre desue and Gab cardia so that is our only loss this year unless I missed any in 2021 which I very M very May way very well may have um I think that concludes my list do you remember the Vegas Austin Gridley Mario bentos
Match I do yes the wait was that 2021 it was I think that was 21 it was 21 for some reason I thought that was in 2020 but yes you are correct okay we had oh I could I could be wrong could be wrong
Cuz it was a ppaa it was at the Plaza Hotel but it was classified as a PPA so you have to be right about that Jay and Pat never beat you guys they got really close no they did beat they did beat us they beat us in Atlanta so I stand correct
2021 in May yes Atlanta they beat us so that would be another team that was one that I knew that we had but I thought that was previous to that there’s one more there is one more Riley and Riley and AJ yeah yes at Vegas The Plaza
Hotel The Plaza Hotel has not been good to us that must have been in 2022 I think that was they ended up getting like a bronze when AJ came in no maybe that was I don’t remember he came in sort of last minute and partnered up
With Riley for that yeah he won both because he won with Jesse and mixed that was sort of his coming out party he won men’s doubles and mixed doubles that weekend so what does it take to to beat the team of of Ben and Colin like you
Got some you got some some teams that you would consider to be flukes you have some teams that you know maybe on their day they can they can beat you or their day and you’re not day right the flukes being you know a couple of these teams
That you wouldn’t expect the people that I would say can give you a run and can give you good matches being the Riley and Matt team the JW and Dylan team yeah I guess the main thing is you want to play us on a side Court in an
Early round based on that sample set I mean how many of those matches happened on the side Court uh where it was an early round match to where maybe we go in with low energy they come out with high energy you know different things can happen whether it’s you know more
Wind and things of that nature um so that would be the best way to beat us is avoid Center Court the other way if you look at the one team that has beaten us multiple times in one year there’s only one of those teams on that list and
That’s Matt and riy they beat us four times in one year and that was in 2022 um they both play a very aggressive style but they’re also they’re also very good counter punchers but they also understand the game of pickle ball well you can’t just go out and swing for the fences without
A legitimate understanding of when and where you should attack cuz I think that it’s thrown around a lot oh you have to play aggressive to beat Ben and Colin and I think that’s pretty clear if you’re going to try to beat us in a dinking war I think that you’re going to
Die very slow death but the ways to be aggressive are not as obvious as as you would think you can’t just pull triggers from anywhere and everywhere and hope that it works maybe if you’re certain players that can work but I think for the most part you’re
Going to have to do it in a smarter way and Riley and Matt are both seasoned veterans when it comes to attacking and then they complimented each other quite well so when they beat Riley was playing the left Matt was playing the right and I think that that really suited both of
Their Styles and they played basically aggressive high octane pickle ball but they did it in a wayve that was Dave Fleming special they did it in a way that was experienced enough to not be dumb about it so it’s a very fine balance and I’m not saying it’s easy but
You need to play aggressive but you need to know what you should be looking for when you’re pulling triggers I like it I’ll take it I’ll accept it so that’s what you’re GNA do next time you play us I mean I wasn’t G to do anything differently you’re gonna
Talk to Matt right and say how do I speed up against Colin no if if if I’m GNA win against you guys I’m GNA probably be on the left just pulling everything pretty much there was that one match in Vegas yeah me and me and Dylan had like four or five match points
I think you had I think just one that I can recall at least six or seven at least six or seven I do remember that it was on Dylan he missed in transition it wasn’t on you I mean Dylan kind of Dylan got us there so well Dylan
Played very well in that match but I do recall that you played a lot of left in that match and you were pulling a lot of triggers and it was working and it was on a side Court I will point out that you got that right you’re like Connor we
Really need to be on court 17 right now yeah yeah when I talk Connor listens uh but yeah that you had our backs against the wall and we had to come back from I don’t know it was probably like eight four down in the third something like that and uh yeah
You were playing some good left and pulling a lot of triggers so yeah yeah we we talked about this here but like my my game plan was not going to going to change one bit after hearing this yes it was just pull yeah pull and pull quickly
Pretty much hey what’s up bro hey you into pickle ball at all you in the pickle ball no all right I’ve got a nice little side hustle going here basically just show up at pickle ball courts and uh I bring some products that they might need and I I
Slang pickle ball products with pickle ball being such a hot sport right now there’s a lot of different products coming out and it’s hard to keep up with so I just basically bring the products directly to the customer right here hey hey bro hey you’re looking thirsty out
There you need one of these ice shakers you know to be honest with you though all I’m really doing is I just subscribe to the pickle ball box and it comes straight to my door with all the hottest pickle ball gear in here and it’s like
$250 worth of stuff and I get it for 99 bucks hey Donna I got that new Fela zip up you were asking about right here yeah that pickle ball Fela zip up yeah yo these pickle ball junkies man once you give them a taste of that new product
That they got coming out they can’t get enough of it hey Tom weren’t you asking about some pickle ball socks man I got some socks right here for you brand new yo did y’all need some sunblock was somebody asking about some sunblock hey what’s up bro you want to check out what
All I got yeah come check it out man check it out wait wait wait cops dude cops cops be cool be cool what’s up officer good day having a good day good all right check it out if you had to choose three drills to do in perpetuity
You could do no other drills no other drills these are the only three drills you can ever drill for the rest of your career what are those three drills and then give a little explanation of what each one is okay well I’ll start with the first most obvious one
And that is the one that Ben and I do the most and that’s simply going straight up on the sides that we play so right side for me left side for Ben and starting with a dink and from there you can really hit anything you want um we
Don’t do Ernies because it’s obvious that you’re going to go down the line and we don’t do lobs just because neither of us lob very much um and we’d rather focus on some of the other aspects of the game but certainly you could do it with lobs uh you want to
Work somewhat cooperatively but at the same time push each other so let’s say you speed the ball up and the other person pops it way high you don’t have to take them out on that one you can kind of keep the rally going um but you want to do everything from that point
When the dink rally starts meaning speed UPS counters blocks different types of dinks trying to get each other off balance um because a lot of pickle ball is attacking straight ahead and countering attacks that are hit from straight ahead so that’s why Ben and I really like that drill uh you can really
Test each other and you also get plenty of dink practice um certainly dinking crosscourt is valuable but I think that at a certain point you want to focus more on the attacks and less on the dinks and certainly once in a while we’ll dink crosscourt but I think that
Takes the attacks out of play a little bit too much um because you don’t attack Cross Court that much um so that would be my number one pick on drill that you could do so this that’s a basically like a dink to speed up drill like you’re playing skin singles straight ahead it’s
Basically skinny singles Straight Ahead from the kitchen line and it’s somewhat Cooperative in the sense you don’t have to jam it down their throat if they hit it really high of course you could play it that way but that’s the general drill right there uh another one that I really
Like is one person starts the kitchen line other person starts the Baseline and a lot of people play this as a 7-Eleven game where if the person at the Baseline can win seven points before the other person at the kitchen line can win 11 points then they win the game uh I
Don’t usually keep score with this but just feeding the ball in as it would be return that person drops drives whatever they want playing it out on half court it’s essentially skinny singles but one person starts up at the kitchen line um so you might say well why don’t you just
Play Skinny singles um that might very well be my last drill because you get serves and returns in that scenario um but the reason I like these first two without the ser and return is you get more reps and you get more reps of the things that
Of the shots that I think are more important not that the serve and return are not important um but I would say the third shot fourth shot and the ones after that are the ones that are the mo most vital at the highest level um you
Don’t see a lot of points one simply on the ser and return but you got to have adequate ser and return and just for continuity I guess I would just go with the last one being skinny singles um just because you get everything in that scenario and skinny singles meaning you
Can do it in all directions so when you move you score so some points are going to be played Cross Court some are going to be played down the line you start 0 0 um let’s say when the first point in the right Court I move to the left court I
Serve down the line I’m now playing the left side the other person’s playing the right side you go straight ahead I score again I move back to the right side and then same for the other person if they score when they’re serving they move that way you have all four directions
Crosscourt in both directions and down the line in both directions so to summarize you’ve got skinny singles from the kitchen skinny singles where one person’s at the kitchen and one person’s at the Baseline and then just skinny singles yeah so skinny singles essentially yes I got you
Because if you’re limited by three you want something that you can get a lot of reps with the most important things but then also everything um of course there are other drills that I would want to do but if you have four people out there though is there another drill that you
Would do with with four I don’t think drilling with four people is particularly use useful now playing points yes that’s the only way you can as yeah you might as well just play but I think actually when you drill one versus one is the most useful way because you’re hitting every shot you
Have to be active and engaged on every single shot and you just get the most repetitions the most flow to the game if you’re one V one I do think that two versus one drills have their place as well so there will be times where I’ll have somebody on my side dinking with
Ben crosscourt and then he’ll attack me down the line and then same um on my side um I’ll have two people on the other side dinking with me crosscourt and then I would attack Ben straight up so a drill like that can be useful um because you’re still getting a lot of
Reps but you’re doing something that you need a third person for I don’t think that there are a lot of four person drills that I myself would personally want to do other than just simply clip points yeah I think the the three-person drill can be good for like speed UPS
Like yes dinking crosscourt is is great right but when somebody leaves the ball up if you’re dinking one-on-one you’re just speeding it up to an empty court like it’s good to have that third person there it’s tough to tough to arrange I suppose but yes there’s there’s some
Merit to that one yeah I like that one we do that one every once in a while and definitely speeding up without any sort of response is very different than having somebody over there actively moving and you really got to be good with your spots which is a big part of of attacking
Mhm uh you mentioned that you’ve replaced Ben on the PPA Pro Player Council which is responsible for coming up with new rules and decisions like for example the new serving rule which was recently implemented um I had heard Rumblings and this is you know sometimes players just
Say this out of frustration but they were like yeah the new serve rule that’s because Colin and Ben wanted it that way but they must think that we just we have all the power huh Ben and Colin want it you know overnight it’s implemented I mean that is kind of I mean
Partially an assumption that a lot of people make is like you and Ben are The Golden Boys of the PPA and if you want something to happen and you apply enough pressure it’ll happen whether that’s true or not I don’t know but I think that is like a general perception like
People tend to act as if that’s the case yeah I think that’s definitely a gross exaggeration the PPA is is a professional tour and clearly they want to respect the opinions of some of their top players but back in the Mesa days like when you win your first title like
You know you could you could pull some strings and make some stuff I mean yeah of course they’re going to have they’re going to give more weight to certain people’s opinions than others but Ben and I are not the only ones at the Top If Anna Lee and her mother give a
Suggestion I feel like that’s weighted as well um the the top players that have been around a long time as well so some somebody like Catherine or Jesse that’s they’ve been playing the PPA for a long time I feel like their suggestions are also heated by the PPA um they’ll hear
Them out and decide whether that’s the the right course of action and then of course the majority if everyone’s saying hey there’s this one paddle that we really feel like is a problem or we’d like to make sure it’s legal and and I want you to test it then I think the PPA
Starts to listen to something like that so I think there are a lot of different ways that you can make the PPA pay attention to what you’re saying and I do think it’s a it’s a good step that we have this Pro Player Council and I try
To represent the players not just myself when I’m on that um I’ll talk to to different players and and get their take on it so the serve rule for example uh talk to feder Rico or or Pablo and say hey what do you guys think of this rule
Do you think that we could improve it do you like it the way it is what are the pros what are the cons I’m still open to suggestions and certain things that we could potentially improve even more um because I know some people are a fan of
This new new surve rule and some are not and the thinking behind the rule was not to completely take away the aggressive nature of the surf because I think a lot of people thought that they’re like oh well Colin Ben don’t like facing huge Sur so they’re going to change the rules
So that they don’t have to face them the reality is the serves are still almost as big I would say I mean if you look at somebody like Dean James they’re still cranking the surf it’s not it’s not affect of the game to where it’s a
Powder puff it’s coming in at you the objective was to make the enforcement easier for the refs so that they could get better at calling ones that were either murky or clearly not good um because when you can toss the ball up it really increases the window that the ref
Has to look for so for example if the ball is tossed as you could with the o with the old rule over your head the player can hit the ball at his chest or he can Let It Drop to his stomach to his knees whatever there’s a large window
Where he can choose to hit it which makes it very difficult for the ref to determine okay where did he actually hit it versus if you minimize that window which we sort of did with this new rule you can only toss the ball so high so how could you
Really get around the rule it’s much harder certainly there are players that are pushing the envelope but you don’t have any flagrant offenses where there were times you’re like dude you’re serving from your shoulders M I don’t think we’ve had really any serves like that um and that was one of the main
Objectives we want to make it easier on the refs and at the same time not give any player a huge Advantage by you know pushing the boundaries of the rule and of course you don’t want the serve to rule the game and in the actual USA
Pickle ball rule book it says the serve is not meant to be a weapon now maybe that’s outdated maybe it’s not but that’s the way that it reads right now and I think part of the reason pickle ball is fun to watch is there there are rallies and again I’m not saying the
Serve can’t be aggressive I think that players can still take advantage of the serve when somebody’s unwinding the stack hit a big serve and have the opportunity to shake and bake get some errors you see plenty of Errors still being hit on the return of serve so I
Just want to make sure that it stays within reason and we’re not missing four or five returns a game because I don’t think that makes for good viewership I like it well Colin well I’ve got I’ve got some things he wants to say I’ve got my opinions and
It’s not about whether or not the serve should be a weapon or not I do I do think I need to push back on making this easier to enforce because I I think we’ve actually made it more difficult to enforce the serve Rule now theoretically like we’ve added one additional thing
That a referee needs to to look at they now need to see whether you are tossing the ball upwards but we’ve eliminated the requirement to look at where their belly button is right or where the contact point is if you drop it straight downwards the enforcement should be
There’s no way the ball should be made contact with above the level of the waist right I think that was the intent but now you have players who are kind of like unbending they’re straightening their legs as the ball is going up there’s a little bit of an upwards
Motion I think that’s just as difficult to enforce whether the ball is being released upwards as it is to Force where the contact point is so I would say that anytime you’re going to attach the serve rule to a body part which it’s really hard to avoid unless you went to a drop
Surve anytime you do that the rule is going to be subjective and it’s going to be hard to enforce to some extent I think that you’ve made it easier because the harder thing for the refs was where is he making contact actually now I don’t mind so much if there’s a little
Bit of upward motion to the ball and I I think this has been loosened up a little bit as far as the enforcement um Conor parau and Don Stanley have been communicating about hey how much is too much I mean is it a true release SL drop
Can there be no upward motion at the Masters there were a lot of um early calls like that and I think they loosened it up because they realized when any when when any player releases the ball there’s going to be a little bit of natural upward release so allow
Them to do that and really allow the refs to focus more on where they’re making contact so if I were the ref I would not focus so much on the upward motion I would more focus on are they striking it above the top of their hip
Or are they not just look at that and because you have the threat of upward motion I feel like most players are not going to get too out of control with it it’s more like it’s having a law that’s a threat that somebody might enforce but it’s not often enforced I feel like
That’s going to limit players enough to where the refs can now look at that one thing which is where is somebody making contact are they making contact too high or are they good and that makes the rule easier to enforce so that would be how I
Would like to see it enforced but isn’t that what they were supposed to be doing before we changed the diff the contact point before it was belly button now it’s top of the waist shouldn’t they just have been looking at where the contact point was before because all the
Other other elements stay the same upwards motion all that stuff yeah so the contact Point yes but the ball is now traveling from the opposite direction which makes a big difference because you’re traveling upwards as opposed to dropping downwards from somebody who’s thrown it up yes because
If you’re releasing it upwards then the ball is going to then travel back downwards and the player can basically choose at that point whether to to hit it high or not versus the other way knowing that they can’t really Propel the ball too far up if there was no
Limit to how far they could throw it up then yes it would be identical but because there’s that threat of too much upward motion it’s it’s not the same because now the ball’s traveling from somewhere that would be legal essentially close to your knees or slightly higher to somewhere that may be
Illegal versus before it was starting somewhere that was illegal high and moving to somewhere that might be legal or would be legal that’s why I feel like it’s different okay was the was the uh drop serve batted around at in the Pro counil at all and and why why this as
Opposed to drop serve when I think the drop serve does eliminate a lot more subjectivity than this rule agreed it was definitely something that was kicked around and I think the main reason it was not adopted was we didn’t like the Optics of it um when you’re dropping a
Pickle ball it just doesn’t bounce all that high and I don’t love how that would look to viewership especially new viewership on TV like pick ball already sometimes looks lowlevel enough where now you’re dropping the ball to hit it I mean the the USA pick ball in part put
That rule in for the people that really struggle with getting the serve in play so I think the Optics were the main reason that was avoided although for the Masters I suggested as an alternative to the new rule if people were really struggling with it they could use the
Drop serve at the pro level that was something I was a proponent of um ultimately they decided not to do that but the drop serve was definitely a legitimate option and like you said it definitely eliminates the subjectivity mhm how many drop serers have you hit in
Your career I mean not not in not in real matches probably zero I’m going to guess in real matches I can’t remember ever hitting one in practice when it was first adopted where you could do it I experimented with it a little bit probably you know several dozen times a
Couple dozen times and then you realize I can hit the ball higher out of my hand than I can if I hit a drop serve so what’s the point um so definitely something I’ve experimented with but I decided not to use Fair I think you can make the drop serve look interesting if
You put your body weight into it and step into it um I just don’t know how many how many Pros have have tried that so I’m a I’m personally like given the fact that we’ve gotten rid of all this other stuff like I’m I’m drop serve fan
You’re drop serve fan now I’m I’m a drop serve fan now because I don’t like subjective rules I don’t like subjective rules you went from Zaya to uh to drop serve well yeah once we decided that we don’t want the serve to be a weapon let’s at least make objective rules I
Would be in for a drop surf I I honestly it would take away the subjectivity but I do worry about the Optics a little bit that would be my only misgiving I’ll show you a cool serve next time we next time we play let’s do it because I do
Remember Tyson at some point posted something where he’s hitting drop serves I think it was like the year that the drop serve was allow everyone was like oh God yeah everyone’s like oh Tyson’s got this new drop serve it’s going to be killer and then I think that he did it
For like one tournament and then it turned out that it wasn’t the the best thing for him so he’s just went traditional yeah yeah but I’m looking forward to seeing this I have a hard cut off you guys can keep keep talking I got to go tour my wedding venue sorry you
Know priorities Jenny would kill you if you weren’t there I’ve got a couple text messages from her as we speak so I’ll let you guys at it uh Colin good stuff drop serves rule no I’m just kidding all right Zane departed but sounds like you have some sort of
Announcement around what you’re going to be doing on the Consulting side of things yes it’s something that Ben and I are both excited about and I can’t talk about too much just yet um but we do have some exciting announcements coming up in the near future on helping pickle
Ball facilities um with design and Consulting that sort of stuff it’s something that I’ve been interested in doing for a long time I think it’s something the pickall space really needs um so we’re going to have some exciting announcements um on that soon you guys should open up your own
Facility I don’t know that I would want to run my own facility put someone in place put your name on it’s so much work on a daily weekly basis that I don’t necessarily feel like I would want to do that at least right now um but I do
Think that helping people get off on the right foot is something that I could see myself doing for a long time yeah and then you’ve got pickle ball 360 and it’s my pickleball coach yes those are companies that I have co-founded so pickle ball 360 was founded by myself
Ben deal and our videographer and those are online um subscription videos um so we’ve been producing those for about 3 years now and my pickleball coach is well they started in golf um but then they went into the soccer space and now the pickall space and essentially it’s
Allowing people to turn in videos of themselves right in a systematic way and having the coaches or coaching teams analyze them give them feedback and having them um have a path to improve in that way so that’s a company I’m a co-founder in um it’s definitely starting to take off and they’re doing
Some great work behind the scenes got some great Partnerships um so those are two companies that are something that I see myself doing beyond my playing days and I do realize I’m not going to play Pickleball forever um certainly I enjoy it but there are other Ventures that I
Have an interest in and I would like to contribute to pick ball in those ways right Ben Ben said something similar is there any like golden idea that you guys toss around it’s like okay as soon as we’re done competing or at least competing as much
This is an idea we want to pursue I think this this Consulting um announcement that we’ll have um before too long um would be in that category something that we both feel H feel has a lot of potential um we both really enjoy that sort of work it’s it’s passive but
You can be as involved as you want it to be um another another thing that to me would be really interesting to do that I’ve been working on a lot recently is educating not so much players but educating coaches a little bit better because the pickle ball teaching guide
Book has not had a remake to it in quite some time and I feel like there’s a lot of bad information out there U that people receive from coaches um there’s a lot of good information out there as well but when you have bad information out there it’s hard to determine what is
Good and what is bad so I am definitely going to have something on that very soon as well um I see the importance of educating the coaching staff as something that could have a real ripple effect not just here in the United States but also internationally if you
Could get that out to a new developing country that don’t have any pickleball coaches right now and get them started on the right foot I think that that could have a really exciting effect got it okay so between the coaching that you do see a lot of these guys doing
Instruction YouTube content what do you think are some of like the biggest misconceptions that are perpetuated by coaches and these instructional creators that you think are just like no that’s that’s wrong uh well actually I was talking to my social media manager recently we’re going to do a myth
Busting series I like and I don’t really want to uh to say anything right now and and then somebody not so much give it away but somebody’s going to be like oh you’re picking on me specifically you looked at my video and you’re like just dead wrong about that and I’m not trying
To single anybody out I’m just trying to get more people the right information so I think that that is a series that you should look out for and and definitely can help a lot of people because there are a few things that I feel like are perpetuated regularly that are just not
Correct give me one example one example uh moving with your partner so when you move with your partner versus relative relative to the ball you don’t know where your partner’s going to hit so I’ll give you an example you’re at the kitchen line beside your partner all
Four players at the kitchen line your partner is pulled wide for a dink so Ben goes out to the left side hits a backhand dink a routine backhand dink I know he’s going to D it back crosscourt I mean the ball’s too low it’s pretty clear that he’s not going to attack it
Why should I waste my time and energy to move with my partner quote unquote towards the center of the Court towards my backhand side when I know the ball is going to appear in just a moment crosscourt in all likelihood versus moving with the ball most people are taught to move with
Their partner now that can sometimes be correct if Ben’s about to hit the ball down the line so he’s about to hit an attack Straight Ahead yes I want to shift towards the center a little bit because now I’m responsible for the center as being across from the ball but
It’s relative to the ball it’s not relative to your partner don’t move towards your partner unless you know the ball is going to be in a specific location namely Straight Ahead from them and crosscourt from you when if he’s wide for that Dink and he hits it back
Crosscourt I’m able to keep my head more still I’m able to anticipate and track the ball better and be in better position simply by holding my position I’m not saying you have to be a statue but you don’t need to follow your partner when they go and get a wide dink
I think a lot of people are taught you to move with your partner and it starts to look ridiculous when there’s just a normal dink rally going back and forth like Ben’s ring with feder Rico how ridiculous would it look if I took two hurried steps towards the center every
Time Ben went out wide for the ball the the top players they just don’t do that right now like I said there are exceptions to that and certainly when your partner attacks there are different things you want to do but I would say that would be a really big one and
Something that I would like to expand on more in the future I like it we can end it there all right thanks for coming on yes thanks for having me pod yeah I’m not going to lie
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29 Comments
can you ask him why is serve is so weak?
Let’s go Collin!
CJ’s logo is no bueno
can you ask Colin, when he assesses opponents, What are the key factors, attributes, etc, that he takes notes on for that player? Does he do this by closely reviewing video of matches?
CJ always gives great insight to the game! Great episode
Colin Johns is the biggest drama queen in Pickleball. 10 minutes on the ground after groin shot. Acted like he got killed by forehead shot and eye rolling every net that goes against him. The perfect Beta for his younger brothers Alpha. Also can’t take Julian Arnold’s antics without going off in interview. Great analyst but definitely Beta.
Collin best guest ever.
Man, Colin is a great right-side player, but charisma probably isn’t his greatest asset.
Thank you for everyone's time and posting. Met you Zane in Mesa in '21, still a fan. I thought they changed the serve rule because PPA was tired of everyone complaining about Tyson's serve. 🤭I only do a drop serve now. And Collin, congratulations on all you and Ben do.
I really appreciate Colin's thoughts on the effects of Table Tennis as a foundation for Pickleball. Years ago I was a tournament level Table Tennis player and I have always felt that my TT Background is a huge factor in my current Pickleball game. I also played Tennis for decades, but I still think Table Tennis (more than Tennis) provides unique shot choices, especially around the kitchen.
Collin always brings the insight. Very interesting at the end about moving relative to the ball as opposed to with your partner. Definitely makes a lot of sense at very high levels where players dont hit erratic shots and its more logically as to where your partner is going to hit. At lower levels often times you are playing percentages particularly if you are with a random partner that is just doing wild stuff. Just like he talked about when the ball goes out wide to Ben and it is low, he knows that Ben is not going to attack that and will hit a normal dink back cross court because that is the logical shot. The problem at lower levels is that your partner Recreation Joe will take that same low outside ball and hit a bail out shot hard and high middle which is going to get countered right through the middle gap. I would say there is a higher percentage of that happening at 4.0 and below than the partner doing the logical thing like Ben.
Yeah Collin! I think you and Matt and AB will be entertaining to watch
I personally know of two cases of retinal detachment caused by a deflected ball.
Didn’t they lose to a 32 seed in 2023
Collin is a contender for goat at analyzing, explaining and breaking down strategy and shot selection in pickleball and I always look forward to hearing his thoughts. Like that Zane spoke his mind on drop serves and would give more weight to Zane's point that drop serves remove subjectivity than Collin's concern about optics. which in itself is a subjective opinion. I am confident Zane and other top pros could use the drop serve as a weapon while eliminating the controversy about whether or not it is legal.
re drilling, agree about the first drill setup (simulating play across the net at nvz). that is the one thing I cannot practice by myself on a wall (unpredictable speedups and/or volleys). but it is something where I'm susceptible in real games.
The only way I would buy a Vulcan is if they sold them for $1 buck a ball. They are grossly overpriced, and I might have to think twice about buying them for even a dollar.
Drop serve is the goofiest geriatric looking thing I can think of. It would really weaponize the serve…….. it would kill the viewership 🙂
Great guest. Like his take on the hot topics.
why don't the ball manufacturers make 2 models of balls, 1 for cold weather and 1 for hot conditions?
Colin johns is my favorite player. Smartest player in the game
Everyone talks about eye protection but no one talks about the ear damage that pickleball causes, The cracking noise near your ear is not good at all and will cause permanent damage. I personal have to wear some type of ear plug like ones for concerts. I know the pickleball noise is a meme for outsiders but I'm surprised no one talks about this.
So articulate and well spoken. He could easily acquire the title as “The Professor of Pickleball.”
Do not normally root for the Johns but Collin is my favorite guest you guys get. His insight to the game is exceptional! Looking forward to the next time he joins you already!
Given the issue with being unable to come out with a plastic ball that is soft enough to not crack while being stiff enough to not deform in all conditions. I would like to see a company that comes out with both a "hot" ball and a "cold" ball that plays best in their respective climates. It would be great for tournaments sponsored in the Midwest where it can be near freezing one day and hot the next. That way you don't have to worry about being stuck with a crappy ball depending on the weather because the sponsor only has one ball available. Though I'm not sure how they would decide which ball to use whether that is done match by match basis and players vote on the ball or it is decided before the day of tournament.
Great response to Tim Nelson. “Legend.”
As CJ mentioned, any time the serve gets judged relative to body parts (navel, waist, hip, crotch, etc), you're asking for trouble. Too subjective.
EASY FIX even without a bounce serve: Simply require it to be dropped from the hand – without any energy being added (neither spin, or up, or down, or sideways) … from 34" max height (the net height at the center). Yes wind will make it move sideways a bit, but otherwise it'll drop per
Always interesting to hear his insights.
17:40 he really shouldnt be bringing this up.
https://youtu.be/NZOthOWfGyw?si=qVWBE1gvgku8_yko
1:03:27 faking an injury.