What If is back with a big topic: VAR. Should the contentious technology continue or should the Premier League vote to scrap it?
Emma Paton is joined by Tim Spiers, Dan Kilpatrick and former Premier League referee and VAR Graham Scott to discuss the pros and cons of getting rid of VAR.
The panel also discuss the possibility of introducing a VAR challenge system, and other potential improvements to the system.
Host: Emma Paton
Guests: Tim Spiers, Dan Kilpatrick, Graham Scott
Executive Producer: Adam Jones
Producers: Mike Stavrou, Grayson Moody
Timecodes:
00:00 – Intro
02:20 – The introduction of VAR and it’s impact
09:05 – The experience of being a VAR
17:19 – The highest profile VAR blunders
20:58 – What does life look like without VAR?
27:18 – Tweaking VAR rather than removing it
38:33 – Who Am I? Trivia
40:28 – The verdict: VAR or no VAR?
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#premierleague #referee #var #manchestercity #manchesterunited
I got on a rabbit hole on YouTube and was watching old match of the day vids from the 2008 season. Believe me, if you think the whinging is bad about referee decisions are bad now, they were horrendous back then. Back then genuinely objectivity wrong decisions were made without VAR (e.g clear handball, a foul outside the box given a pen). VAR hasn’t been perfect but has improved the game
Nice try but you're not distracting us from 114FC
Too much hate and anger on social media for VAR to be removed now, take it away and refs would slaughtered, VAR takes a lot of the heat, shame but here we are.
Footage/Data has to be open source and auditable, especially by teams, with formal petition mechanisms for redress. Offside should be Head-to-Knee (no arms). Current convention is a concession to refs' fallible eyes and that extra error margin.
When are you going to the alternative timeline by what if Michael Oliver, Darren England, Dan Cook and Stuart Burt didn´t go to the UAE and didn’t t get 20.000 extra and did officiate better with less bias hehe… Oliver as PL coming closer to a verdict giving his first red card ever to City with the Foden incident…´
And then theres Mike Dean and his generations ref challenges in game… Centre circle, no yellow cards etc..
Enzo Fernandez offside against ManU the horrible missed tackles the slow motion tackles looking way worse is just so damning and shows the lack of qualification of them who sits by the screens. Only way to get to terms with VAR if its deemed to stay and inevitably lower the quality of the on field referees then I think is to introduce a challenge system, and also approve corrections retrospectively, like half time or after full time. And that until VAR resources are good enough and have more understanding of the flow of the game, the speeds and that not all is intentional… Automated goal line and offsides are fine but VAR is just adding more human error to the game… I hope they scrap it.
I am listening to the panelist arguing against VAR using emotions, pressure that VAR puts on the refs, fans hate it, the game was made to be fast look at all this delays, please do VAR on this episode😂😂😂, …..@Athletic please lets put valid arguments, the game of football has changed decisons with errors have been reduce using VAR, football is much better than few years ago, the establishment hates as it introduces equality.
Supposed to be clear and obvious… Taking 5 minutes over a 4mm offside toe is not what it was brought in for.
Watching the championship or old highlights of top division games pre VAR feels so nice and pure.
But removing VAR would cause more harm that good. Just needs to implemented far better than it has to date
Yanited will win EPL if no VAR
Three points. Firstly, yes, there are slightly fewer errors but those that remain are particularly vexing and egregious given that the officials now use the same perspective as fans do to judge the game. No more begrudging 'perhaps he didn't see it' or 'it happened too fast'.
Secondly, the option to review and overturn is another potential lever for inconsistent refereeing within matches and across the season: one pony tail innocuously pulled leads to a red, a scalping by another team is ignored. Given the level of cheating people have finally caught up to, accusations of inadvertent bias (and worse) are flying. VAR can definitely exaggerate such inconsistencies – overturning the correct onfield offside decision in the Manchester Derby being an example, actual incontrovertible evidence was dismissed.
Finally, like this post, VAR takes way too long. No more glance over to the assistant before celebrating – no, it's several agonising minutes of Schrodinger neither or sensations, while we have to endure a performative forensic examination which often still gets it wrong.
VAR isnt the problem. Its the people using it.
A) watch things in real time. If you can't tell from that, then its not clear and obvious
B) All penalty and red card decision should be reviewed by on pitch ref.
What if……Michael Oliver was influencing games on behalf of Manchester City in return for all the lucrative refereeing gigs in UAE he was given….
If VAR was scrapped, it would bring the game back. Personally, I blame Sky. Their constant analysis and undermining of referees is the reason VAR exists. Let's be honest. People make mistakes. Players make mistakes. Managers make mistakes. Officials make mistakes. Players also cheat. I'd be fine with VAR if it was 100% perfect, 100% of the time. Goal line technology is brilliant. How many times has that been challenged? I can't think of a single occasion. How often has VAR got it wrong? Relatively regularly. Unlike other sports football has few natural breaks. There's no additional delivery as in cricket. There's not the end of a rally as in tennis. There's not a definitive finish line as in athletics. Not only are there no natural breaks but if the game progresses, earlier incorrect calls are then ignored as "it's too late to correct". There should be consistency with VAR and there isn't. A VAR decision in one game doesn't set a precedent and in a different game, the opposite call is made. Clear and obvious is subjective, so that doesn't add value. The one time where VAR could, in theory, add value is offside. That law was changed to give the attacking side a fairer chance by making the law level. Now, with zoom and, sometimes, weirdly drawn lines, the smallest part of a boot or forehead can be used to rule out what should be a perfectly good goal. It removes the fairness of the changed law. It also makes officials lazy, thinking that VAR will bail them out. The responsibility should ALWAYS be with them and not with people in a room, watching TV miles away.
If only…..
I think that being an on-field referee and being a VAR are quite different and that referees should specialize and focus on working with whichever role they are better at. Also, I know a guy that is good at esports and he is very skilled or talented at seeing things quickly and accurately on a screen, so I would suggest that they try hiring some people with that kind of skill or talent.
VAR and refeering can still be improved much more.
Very often, right away after a contentious VAR decision is made, the TV producer show an alternative angle or an extended clip that immediatly disprove the referees decision making.
That leaves fans with a feeling that the VAR only look for things to overturn, rather than study the context of a situation – it breeds conspiracy and disdain. Get more skilled operators into these matches, and that issue is largely fixed – as Graham Scott aknowledge himself.
Then there is consistency in decision making, where interpretation of the rules seemingly shift from game to game, even to situation to situation.
Sometimes, it appears that if a contentious, scrutinized call has been made in a high profile game, the next time a similar call has to be made – the referees tend toward avoiding reaching the same conclusion. Possibly due to fears that they'll receive the same criticism and overt negative response as their colleagues.
While human nature is difficult to anticipate, I think this can be mitigated by referees doing interviews after games where they explain their thinking in the concrete cases. That reduces room for conspiracy, and provide insight into the decision making process at large.
PGMOL leadership can be even more active in the media-scape; with direct conversation with fan groups or clubs about how they interpret a decision situation. Having Howard Webb turn up every other month to explain away mistakes under very weak challenges from a former pro is not the medicine that is needed. PGMOL need to respond well to genuine arguments coming from actual stakeholders – not an impartial person. All to often, Howard Webb gets away with a weak explanation that any serious level of argumental challenge would tear apart.
These things are not that difficult and can be introduced tomorrow if they wanted to.
Ex EPL Referee joins red cartel reporting team shock horror😂
The answer is obvious. There would be absolute anarchy, weekly cries that all referees are incompetent leading to a gradual shortage of refs. Instead of seeing 1 or 2 controversial decisions a weekend, there would be 1 or 2 controversial decisions in every single match. Basically people lack respect and tolerance, even with VAR notice how after seeing multiple videos from different angles, experts still can’t agree on decisions. Even where decisions are proven to be factually correct, fans and even managers of losing teams STILL complain that the decision was wrong. Anyone remember the Spurs v Sporting Lisbon Chsmpions league group game. Spurs needed to win to qualify and they were pushing for the winner in the last 15 minutes, it was a great game with Harry Kane scoring a dramatic last minute winner. It looked on side in real time but the video showed he was about 6 inch offside, so the decision to rule out the goal was 100% correct but after the match Conteh accused VAR of killing a great moment and killing joy. He also said if it was Real Madrid scoring in the last minute, if it was a tight decision then the goal would have stood. The morning after all the newspapers criticised VAR for spoiling the game and this was after VAR was proven to have made the correct decision.
The clamour started for VAR because referees were at best incompetent on far too many occasions. Guess what they're exactly the same with VAR. Match officials along with politicians are the only professionals who never face consequences for their actions. Being demoted a league for a couple of games is not a punishment for their failures. The fact that there's still so many spectacular howlers being made despite all of the technology speaks volumes.
Don't threaten me with a good time!
The fact the 1st thing the guy said was why there were no pictures of a referee, perfectly encapsulates the problem with modern day refs. They actually think they are as important as the players and want to share their limelight. SMH. 🙂↔️
What if… Pro ref /PGMOL was investigated?
This ex-ref is describing a 'process' that is fundamentally flawed in every way, and he seems to think that its a justifiable excuse for 'mistakes' being made, and then 3 other people in the room that dont pick this nonsense apart. I can't believe what I'm hearing, but if this is the way things are done in the VAR world then 'good process' makes a lot of sense. 'Process' before any kind of Sense. VAR needs to go ASAP.
Interestingly no acknowledgment of how VAR interacts with (or corrects for) referee bias and/or malpractice. Except for a half sentence hand-waving away "conspiracy theories." The guilty verdicts in the biggest cheating and corruption scandal in the history of the sport were less than one week ago.
Var should be a 3 man panel. 90 secs to decide for or against and then press a button. Democracy. Done
What if..we extended the investigation to include the referees who were paid thousands of pounds by Abu Dhabi and Riyadh, to officiate matches in their leagues, while owning clubs in the premiere league? Namely of course Michael Oliver and Darren England.
You guys reported on all of that, I think it’s time you dug deeper now.
“Ditch VAR and ban talking about referring errors” is genuinely one of the most ludicrous suggestions I’ve ever heard. The fact Dan was serious makes it all the more worse.
A sage individual once said: Some you win, some you lose. In the end it all equals out.
Howard and his band of merry OPINIONS needs to find the dust bin of history.
My issues with VAR is that the offside tech was implemented too soon and that when a goal is scored, it feels like the VARs are looking for reasons why it shouldn’t stand more than anything, which takes a long time and sucks the fun out of the game. The whole process of not using the Tv directors for instance on one hand makes sense but on another it means those who have to make important decisions get worse materials to work with. Whole thing is a mess and ntheir application needs to be reduced massively.
I do not watch enough football live anymore so my view won't be the same. The issue is VAR is needed it reduces the amount of bad calls being made.
But people have far to high expectations for var. There need to be criticism of it process and the people implementing it. But in the end football is still ran by humans, and have grey areas. There tackles and hand balls every weekend that are often 50/50 splits. Because at the end of the day in a fast moving game even with video tech, they have to be interpreted.
Calling on people in football to be “grown ups” has to be one of the funniest things I’ve ever heard
What if?!?…… CITY DIDNT CHEAT!!!!
VAR should be scrapped , it has killed spontaneity.
An additional source of income for refs
Please scrap the VAR
I don't see how it's better than the human error.
By the way, can we investigate Michael Oliver for his ties with the UAE and Man City.
M O keeps helping City directly and indirectly.
Challenge system is great until someone challenges it… they watch it and STILL get it wrong
A fascinating conversation, the insights provided by Scott that VAR is fundamentally flawed, reinforces my long held view that VAR has to be scrapped. Replacing it with an on-field review system is the obvious solution but it would still require a complete rethink of the decision making process to address the all of the issues discussed.
VAR was brought in to influence games.
Plain and simple
UAE employee Michael Oliver and Howard Webb are the ones who should be scrapped first. And enough Manc refs on Liverpool games, enough Tierney and Kavanagh already! Howard Webb's re-branded gang is not fit for purpose
It would help if managers, players, pundits and journalists knew the laws of the game. By and large they seem never to have read them.
VAR is a was much needed addition, but people seem to think its there to assist on field officials and thats the way its been sold to us. It isn't to assist officials its to asses their decision making, was it on side or off side did the linesman get it right or wrong, was the decision to give or not give a foul right or wrong, asses not assist. Therefore it makes no sense what so ever that VAR isnt an independent body with no connection to the Premier League or to Howard Webb as it would then also eliminate the rumours that the games are fixed by the league via referees decisions or even having the ability to alter the off side graphics (i believe they can). Independent VAR could then also incorporate ex players who see the game from a players prespective and how they play the game to the boundaries of what they can get away with
Just say it; Michael Oliver is corrupt and has been covered by Howard Webb for years
Before VAR: refs decide subjectively
With VAR: refs decide subjectively whether to apply VAR
Problem is not VAR. Problem is the PGMOL/ProRef.
How about each team gets one challenge per game, but if the VAR agrees with their challenge, it is refunded and can also be used later? That would put pressure on teams to only challenge objectively wrong decisions.
Lovely insight from Graham
Offside is the easy one to fix. Look at it with var to make sure someone hasn’t been obviously missed. But as so as the var ref needs to draw a line on three fields to be able to tell if it’s offsides or not, the call on the pitch stands