Lucas Glover’s Agent Mac Barnhardt Doesn’t Hold Back on Changes in Pro Golf

Lucas Glover’s agent Mac Barnhardt talks about the Tour before Tiger, LIV, PGA Tour U, and asks why is golf the only pro sport that is shrinking.

Welcome back to Any Given Monday, the second version of M. Barnhard, uh, agent to many players, Lucas Glover, who was just on this podcast last week. Mac, how are you, Ron? I’m well. How are you doing? Thanks for having me back. I don’t usually get asked back, so appreciate it. Mac, uh, let’s just start with like you’re very outspoken. Lucas is outspoken. It’s so rare in the golf world. Like, it’s not I know it from the media side. It’s not easy to be outspoken. Uh what’s your relationship with the tour? Like like do you hear from them a lot? Does Lucas hear from them? Kind of where Let’s just start there. Yeah. Um obviously I’ve been doing this since the early early 90s when Dean Beaman was commissioner. Um, and I had an incredible relationship with um, Tim Fitchum uh, because I happen to have some of his top players. I represented Davis Love, Justin Leonard, Steve Pate. Um, so my voice was listened to quite a bit. Now, um, I was friends with Jay when he was in my business. I was friends with Jay when he ran the, uh, tournament up in Boston. Um, and had considered him a friend. But no, I don’t hear from him because I don’t have a player now of the caliber. You know, if you It’s kind of like it’s position power, everything we do. If you’re a manager in this business, you’re really good when they play well and you really are no good and not listened to when they don’t play well. So almost it’s non-existent in the last probably three to four years. Yeah. And that’s kind of it, right, Mac? is like when they don’t have to listen to you, you’re not when you’re of no need to the tour. Mhm. They they don’t they don’t need you basically. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Hey, look, that’s their call. You know, you and I think off record have talked before about the fact that, you know, this is there was a third generation. This is a third generation. Jay was the third generation owner of this little private company. And you know, and if you go and look at historical data, 3% of third generation companies survive to the fourth. Um, so it’s a it’s a tough hole when you have institutionalized leadership. You know, everybody kind of moved up. I think Tim Finchel may have been the only outsider that I remember coming into the tour until this guy Brian’s now uh coming in. Um, so they they’ve had a tough road to hoe. Um, and no one at the tour was in this game before Tiger. I mean, no one understands the metrics from 1995 to 1996 when Tiger showed up. Um, I would have reached out to people that were in the game before then and said, “Hey, what what’s it like? What was it like before Tiger? What were the metrics?” Yeah. Um, and because they all are living in this Taj Mahal of a headquarters down in Panovidra, they’re, you know, they got this huge clubhouse. It that was all built with Tiger money. That was Tiger. It was no one else. Um, I was in the business when John Dailyaly won the PGA Championship in ‘ 91. And I mean, that was a big kick in the pants, you know, for the, you know, for golf. And then Fred Couples wins the Masters in ’92. And then Davis Love wins the players. I mean, these are some strong players and they had no effect on the tour as far as growth. I mean, it there was no bump. There was no bump and you know, it it was just on a little one and a half% cruise growth and golf was doing what it was doing. Tiger shows up and I mean, you can’t even you can’t describe it. The amount of money that this guy brought into the game, the amount of viewership, I mean, he was the best athlete in the world, most famous athlete in the world, not just the best golfer. We’ve never had that. Um, he was also an African-American. Another demographic. I mean, and so, yeah, I I wish that they would have reached out to people, and maybe they did. Maybe they reached out to Rocky Hamburg and Lyn Roach and um but I think I think they should have kind of looked at the game past Tiger and and that’s the point right Mac is like Scotty wonderful player great advocate for the PGA Tour nice dude family guy but he’s not he’s a needle driver in this world but he’s not a needle driver like Tiger was or even in the ballpark. It’s not shot in Scotty. It’s just the way it is. It’s just like Yeah. You think about it, right? I mean, I saw the memorial highlights. Um, you know, they were when they were promoting the memorial on TV and and you had the number one player in the world that was defending champion and every shot they showed to promo that tournament was Tiger. And I get it, man. I want to see Tiger highlights every day. I’d watch them every day. But that’s the kind of thing you’re seeing is why wouldn’t they be promoting Scotty Sheffller’s shots that he won the tournament with the year before? And I know everybody wants to see Tiger. I mean, but I think we’ve got to move past that for this sport to grow. And I don’t think the metrics they’re looking at are anywhere near possible without Tiger in the game. I think that’s why they continue to put him on committees and search committees and then competition committees and you know it’s great that he’s involved but they throw his name out there a lot I think hoping that it somehow gets people to turn the TV back on and I just I don’t see it. No disrespect to anybody. It’s just I was in this game before Tiger and that’s where it I’ve seen it in the last four or five years head the other direction as far as numbers and everything else. Yeah. I mean that’s it right Mac is like to your point of they they put him on every committee and and I think I think a lot of people probably inside the tour know that he was never going to play again or the odds are very stacked that he’s ever going to play again. this surgery just announces just another example that it’s going to be and they’re trying not that he doesn’t like he doesn’t have insight into how the tour could work but they’re trying to keep his name as prevalent as possible, right? Like they have not done they just haven’t done the things they need to to like set up for post tiger. like we’re still we’re paying post tiger purses plus some y in a world where that it’s just not it’s not sustainable for the long term. I yeah I think the effect of the growth of the tour with Tiger ended in somewhere around 2010 2011. I think it leveled off. I’m not saying didn’t keep it up there but it leveled off. it wasn’t this meteorite growth that they had that um but I don’t think TV saw that when they did their contract. I think they looked at the growth of what it was doing. They just kind of forecasted it up that way. Uh I think they were headed on an unsustainability model before Liv showed up personally when watching what was happening knowing what I you know again just from my point of view and and and numbers off course and on course always kind of grew equally. I mean, when Tiger showed up, you know, deals went up four and five and six times just overnight. Um, which obviously we all enjoyed. Um, but when the numbers started dropping, companies, you know, companies are smart, you know, they’re smart about the money they spend. Um, it the purses started kept growing when I saw this stuff. Offc course not and I knew there was a problem. I an issue. Um, but again, maybe they know something. I don’t know. I mean, now they’ve gone for profit. They’ve brought in a guy from, you know, outside the sport. Um, you know, I’m pulling for them, man. We need it. We need it to work. But, as I think I’ve said it to you, um, people think things are too big to fail, but Blackberry failed and Kodak failed. Um, Nokia failed with as much market share or more than the tour had. So, I’m I know they’re going to be careful, but I just I think that they better look at what the sustainability of this tour is, not just shortterm um competing against Liv. And I think that’s where this all got off got off track. Yeah. I mean, Liv pushed the envelope by paying players a lot of money and and the tour from the outside. I don’t know, it seemed to be like, oh, I understand part of it is like they wanted to keep top players. Uh, but they have gone above and be I mean, again, it’s it’s just not sustainable what they’re doing right now. It’s just not I mean yeah everything is reactionary another signature event like it’s more money it’s like everything’s reactionary right now I I mean the tour’s always been reactionary I mean they didn’t recruit Tiger they didn’t mold Tiger Tiger showed up they went oh my gosh we can all make a fortune and let’s do it I mean and and and it went everywhere the money you know we all benefited from that um they didn’t and then you know the next reaction was the writer cup was such a great deal let’s do the president’s cup, you know, we deserve that. But again, it was just still more honest on the members, you know, to play more golf. And was that for them or was it for the tour? And I think this is where I think this is the junction is that forever and ever the when Dean Beaman took the tour from the PJ of America and they formed it, it was everyone in that office down in Panovra was there to provide opportunities for the membership. They were nonprofit to provide opportunities for charities to give money in each community to go play and and overnight they go forp profofit and then the people in that office down there are looking for ways that the members now can provide money for the investors. That’s why I can’t understand. And can it work? I don’t know. I’m not that’s not me. But I don’t know why the members are not in an uproar. I mean who would vote for less opportunities? Yeah. Who would do it? And you know, I even I I think I heard Brandle um talking about it. He didn’t agree with this constriction of of opportunities. Um and I think he gets that because he’s a player and he understands it takes four to six years to get really going is Steven Fisk at just one. I think he was a rookie. I think he’s been a pro for six years and he just won. Well, that’s not uncommon. That’s about that’s about it. I mean, Brian Harmon, I think, was on and Brian Harman was one of the best I’ve ever seen as a kid. it and they’re thinking, “Well, we’ll just give college kids cards. We’ll send them out to do that.” I said, “Everything’s reactionary. It wouldn’t bother me if they said, “Hey, here’s what we’re going to do to make it better.” Um, I just saw the I just saw the cornfairy tour and I saw I think it was Jim Gallagher and they were bragging about the cornfairy tour being the pathway to the tour and it’s not. It’s college. It’s going to be PGA Tour. It’s going to be PGA Tour Light now. I mean, that’s that’s what it is. It’s And with 20 spots, not 50. Um I mean, Lucas Glover when he went through his bad period there, he regained his car in the fall on the corner series. Lucas Glover. And I mean, Max is I mean, I think he’s got another year because of his wins, but Max, I think he’s a hundth on the money list. I mean, he was probably the one. I mean, Max was four holes away, Mac, from losing from losing his cornfy card and then birdied four of the last five. Yeah. To I think he finished 75th that year to get into the cornfairy finals. There you go. He was headed back to second stage at Q school. I mean, and you know better than anyone, Mac, like once a player goes to Q school, anything can happen. like you could easily get your card back and you easily never see the corn ferry or the PJ tour again. Like there’s and the tour will never see them again. That’s more important. Right. Right. I mean I mean Max Holm I think was part of the Delaware 23. Wasn’t he a part of that group that decided that no one wanted to see all these guys play? They wanted to see smaller fields of best players. And I’m like I mean of that people are in that Delaware 23 how many of them are around right now? I don’t know. I know. Um I think Zotaurus was he part of it? I know he’s hurt but see I again I’m just coming from my point of view. It used to be 40 in ties at Q school every year got tour carts. That’s casting a pretty large net for talent that you need for your tour to sell to the TV and to sponsors and they they got rid of that corn ferry. Well, you know what? That’s cool. I think these kids need that that minor league uh experience to get up there. And that’s how that’s how Shelfer got onto it, right? Through the corn ferry. Um, and and then they took it from 50 to 30 to 20. Um, I keep looking at I don’t think from my point of view, they don’t understand where their talent comes from. I mean, they’re casting such a small net and now if you do get your card, how about these kids coming off the corner that are rookies, they’re playing what, for 35 cards essentially. I mean, with the elevated events, there’s 35 cards they’re playing for on new courses in a new environment, like I said, you’re going to see I think the average tour career now is 2.7 years. And it’s going to go below two years now. I mean, you’re just going to have and you can’t build star power that way. And the tour should be really more concerned about their futures players than the ones they have. And I doubt the people in the Braves or the, you know, the Falcons or anybody, they’re not looking. They are building. The next draft is more important. They’ve got the guys on the field, but they better be worrying about the next draft. And just to start giving cards to college players, I mean, what a shock to a system to go from amateur golf to pro golf. I think I said I think I said amateur golf is is riding in a plane and pro golf is flying the plane. There’s just a lot of stuff going on. And you’ll see it with the Nick Dunlaps and the Gordon Sergeants and the kids that I mean it’s a shock to your system to be playing as little as you play in college, flying private, best practice facilities, having a team to being on the road alone for three weeks, playing against guys that can whoop your butt. Um it who can handle getting beat, right? And I think that’s where the tour needs to be careful about. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that’s it, Mac, is like I’ve talked about that is like, yes, of course, they’re fine now because all of these guys like Scotty and are are here for seven years, but if you’re not building I use Johnny Kefir as a a great example. Like Johnny Kefir is top like you can argue OWGr’s a mess. No argument there, but he’s easily a top 75 to player in the world and no one knows who he is, right? And that’s a shame because the kid is super talented. Now he’s got to go up to the PJ tour and compete his way in when the odds are stacked against him. And L I mean there’s a million examples, right? Like Scotty Sheffller made one of seven Monday qualifiers on the Cornferry tour. Uh like Lucas went down to the cornfair. I mean, everybody like Max, Billy Horchel, there’s a million examples of guys and but they once they got to the PJ tour, they were competing on a more level field to keep their card and that’s what has kept them up there. Y that system is gone and it’s skewed towards I mean in in seven to 10 years are we just watching Scotty you know like it’s going to be the champions tour I guess like a mini version of if there is a champ if there is a champions tour I don’t know uh if I I don’t like I said I I see golf differently I watch golf to see the rich beams win the PGA I watch goth to see golf right and I think that’s what most golf fans and you know and you’re out you know at my clubs and I’m sitting there you know watching golf at the club and and everyone goes I don’t know any who these play because they don’t they don’t promote their players right they don’t it’s not like you don’t see a lot of promotion outside of you know Rory and and you know people don’t realize Rory’s not a young kid I he’s 35 36 I think when this next TV deal is done I think he’ll be 40 I mean I Like I said, I would I would be more concerned about throwing a global net around talent and trying to find the best talent around the world to come play on tour. Um, and I’d say that for Liv as well. Um, you know, there’s there’s this talent just doesn’t come from college. And I’m and I’ve kind of gone on record as saying I think four years of college may be too much for somebody wanting to play pro golf. I’m not I don’t want I’d say it like this, but it it softens them up. And I mean, college, college life is awesome. Yeah, that’s what you’re saying, Mac, right? Is like at the big programs, especially I was actually just doing a podcast about uh the 20 graduates and the there’s not a ton that come from big programs. uh a lot of D2 and I always say is like I don’t know if it’s an advantage but like at the D2 level you’re riding a van, right? And like you don’t have like you don’t have the cushy uh practice facilities and you don’t have the private jets. You’re like you’re grinding your ass off in college. And I think maybe not from a talent perspective, but from a lif style perspective, the jump to mini tours is not as harsh as it is when you play at Alabama or you play at Vanderbilt or Wake Forest where you’re literally flying in a donor’s plane. You have the best practice facilities in the world. You have I mean the short game areas and then you’re going you have the best coaches in your you have your best you have the best coaches in your ear every day. I mean, yeah. I mean, you got sing and then you’re like two weeks later, you turn pro, you’re playing a GPro event in the middle of North Carolina on a, you know, very average golf course and you’re like, what the hell has happened? Oh, man. I I mean, I won’t get into names, but you know, I see these I see kids come out of these programs. I mean, they’re I watch them play when they’re freshman and I’m start I watch them down at the Jones Cup and Yeah. And there’s some guys that are so good. I’m like watching I watched one kid in particular. I said he is so good. Yeah. And he was so good. Um and he’s got a great coach. I mean I knew the coach. I mean got a great assistant coach. I need an assistant coach. And overnight he signs with an agent. He switches clubs. He’s got new clubs in his bag. He’s got deals on him. He shows up and I’m looking going, “Whoa, dude. You’re getting ready to You’re going to war. You just you just got a different weapon to go to war with. And and who’s now who’s telling you what to do? You got you got an agent making you money. Okay, great. You got a swing coach that’s telling you how to swing. You got a caddy giving you yardage. You got a trainer telling you how many push-ups to do. Who’s telling you what to do? At the moment you probably need guidance the most is when they get rid of the guidance. I mean, when I got in this business and Vinnie Giles was my mentor and he was probably he’s the best amateur I think ever besides Bobby Jones, should be in the Hall of Fame. But he brought me in the business as a manager to help this transition from amateur golf to pro golf. And I had to learn that with Davis and Justin Leonard and and I look at these kids now. I mean, kids are getting paid to go to college out of high school. Yeah. I mean, they’re making more money than they’re making more money than some of my clients on the cornfair tour 100% to go play college golf. And I’m like, okay, so four years of that, they’re going to get a coach and they step out. They’re going to get an agent. You know, agents love to make that money. And and you know, and they got a caddy and and this kid’s 22, doesn’t have a clue probably. And a lot of people don’t sign with me, I think, because I go in from to I’m going to manage your career. You know, I like, you know, Lucas has been on tour for 24 years. Davis was on tour for 30 years. I think longevity and all that matters, but I mean, these kids at 18 are want money to play golf. Yeah. I don’t see how, and I mean, my best example is Larry Nelson. Finally, he got a little bit of pub. He should have been a Ryder Cup captain. He was being shot at at age 21. Read a book by Ben Hogan and won three majors. That’s more majors than Fred Coubles and Davis Love combined. Yeah. Now, so talent or what do you want to call talent is a lot more than hitting a golf ball. There’s there’s some inner strength it takes to play this game at a level. And the Paul Goyos’s and Dicky Prides and these guys, I would say dare say that their talent, whatever talent is, was not at the Fred Couples level. But you would not want to get in a bar fight with these cats. These guys know how to. They’re scrappy. I mean, this Andrew Novak kid who I was public saying this kid should be on a Ryder Cup team. You want that guy. Where did he play? Wford. Was it Walford? Yeah. Yeah. Wford. I mean, I doubt they have a private plane taking him anywhere. But if you I mean, no, they don’t. Okay. Well, I He played a practice round with Lucas at the British Open and I was just like, golly, this guy’s good. I mean, he ain’t scared. He ain’t worried about anything. He ain’t worried about how what color his logo on his shirt is. He just wants to beat you. Anyway, stretching it out. But yeah, is college I mean now they’ve got a college program. They’re going to make you stay at least three years. And I’m not saying college is bad. Like people are going to get mad at me. But I mean historically I don’t think Rory went to college. I don’t think Justin Rose went to college. I don’t think Sergio Sevy Bernard Longer. There’s a lot of people that just go ahead and go do the job, right? Yeah. You know, I’ve got a son that didn’t go to college and I said if I was him, I’d go be learn a plumber and electrician because anybody owns a house does not ask an electrician and a plumber, how much do you charge? You just say, “Would you please fix this?” Because we don’t know how to do it. And I think golf is the same way. Maybe one year of college. Yeah. But if you really want to play pro golf, since it’s so different, I just go ahead and play pro golf. This Blades Brown did it, right? Yeah. And people were I heard people saying, “Oh, you should go to college.” I said, “Dude, I don’t know.” He and he got his card, right? I mean, he kept his card on cornf kept his corner card. Yeah. Well, I I would prepare to see him on tour in the next couple years. Yeah. And I And you go back and look at all the guys coming out. I always tell this story. I love to tell the story about I tell people they said, “You ever heard of this guy and this guy?” And I said, “Bobby Clampet, does anybody remember how good Bobby Clampet was?” Gary Hall, remember these names? Yeah. David Gosset. I mean, you can go backwards and say, “Look at how great these players were.” And they were, but it didn’t it did not go to it did not get over into the pros. They just didn’t I don’t know what it was. Edward I mean I think I think Edward first time all-American at Oklahoma State and like there you know I mean had a good career but like and it could be injury. I mean yeah I mean people get hurt. I mean Andy has had two surgeries already since he turned pro. Um, it’s a tough game and you go from playing almost no golf to a bunch of golf. Yeah. And traveling. And so again, I think if I’m the PGA Tour, I would rather go back and say I want to see you beat people on a lower level, learn to beat people and travel, and then come up here to us. Throwing these guys right into the fire. And I’m not saying they’re, you know, these guys are not talented, but they’re looking at maybe half of it. Yeah. And and who and and unfortunately these guys that get these cards, they sign with usually the agents that are the best at making money. And I’ll go back to saying how good you are, how good an agent is is how good your player is. But they come out and they they’re going to I mean they they get recruited by agents, not managers. Yeah. because agents are going to make them the most money. But and again, that’s not knocking these guys. Look, but again, I go back to the moment they need the most direction is when they get almost none and they’re just encouraging that now. Yeah. And I think the mental side of getting a PJ tour card and being pushed into the spotlight, Mac, we have to see over time. I mean, it’s a very short window, and I’m not saying this is it, but by all accounts, Nick Dunlap has the driver yips. Gordon seems to be playing a little bit better of late, so hopefully he’s over them, but had the chipping yips as far as I know. Like, this is like these again back to his like you’re pushing these kids. No one cares if Nick Dunlap has the driver yips on the Cornferry tour. No one’s like going, “Oh, he shot 90 at the MA.” If he shot 90 at the Witchita Cornferry event in the scheme of things, no one cares, right? Yeah. He shot 90 at the Masters and everyone cares. And so, uh, again, over time, are we just putting back to your stat? I think when I started this Mac, it was like 4.5 years or something like that to get to the PG average, right? And that’s good. And that’s a good thing. That’s good. That’s right. Like that’s good. I got a client that was playing over in Europe, challenged tour, and he called me. He said, “It’s really tough.” And I said, “Good.” Yeah. He goes, “It’s just you don’t understand.” I said, “I hope it’s tougher on you.” And he goes, “Why?” I said, “Dude, it’s going to get worse. I need you prepared to do this. I mean, I always, you know, I liking giving a tour card to these kids coming out of college to, you know, the number one ROC guy and at college and making him a seal. I mean, they’re not ready for war. Although they know how to shoot and they know how to jump and they know how to climb, they don’t understand the mental metrics of what goes on with these kids. And I don’t understand it obviously, but I watched Justin Leonard come out, earn his card in six starts on tour. And I w it was a it was a struggle for him. This kid, I mean, probably one of the best I’d seen, but it was a struggle. what took him a couple years to really get kind of situated and he won obviously he won he won the British Open and um and I see these guys like Smiley Kaufman who was a client of ours and and love him to death. I think he won his second PJ tournament and then he was in the Masters final group as a rookie and I think he shot 81. I mean I thought that was an incredible feat to shoot 81. I know how his nerves, but he’s, you know, he’s carrying a microphone, which I’m he’s happy. He’s a good kid. You just don’t know how what happens at that level, that kind of pressure. And we’ll go back, you know, expectations. I always tell people like the Ryder Cup, people don’t play, these golfers do not play bad because of nervousness. They’ll they’ve been nervous and they know how to handle it, but they don’t really know how to handle expectations sometimes. I think the RDER Cup it’s what Tiger it was Scotty it’s not that they’re nervous or they are exposed to play well and this game is not like that. I’m sorry it’s not like that. Um so that’s that’s where again I would if the I go back to the Braves Braves fan but they’ve got single AAA and AAA ball. All those baseball players are capable physically to play in the majors I bet or close to. Yeah, but what are they doing with them? They’ve got coaches and managers taking them to each level and getting them ready and then they’ll right and I watch guys that with 158 mph ball speed winning on the cornfair tour and getting the tour card and I’m like that’s like having an 87 mph fast ball. It ain’t going to work. And you might make it. I’m not going to say you can’t. They want to knock anybody down, but you better have 170 mph ball speed to come out to these golf courses they built for these guys, right? Yeah. I mean, that’s another topic. Obviously, Mac, but I talked about it many times. I mean, they’re we’re not promoting the 20 best players because we’re not playing two or two tour courses like two weeks ago. Winner shot 3,300. It’s like the only thing you’re getting is the experience of being a professional and traveling and understanding what it feels like. And that’s incredible experience by all means, but that’s why you don’t see many people stay out there because yeah, you’re you’re playing you’re winning a golf tournament in Boise, Idaho at altitude that’s only 6,600 yards. I mean, and look, it doesn’t mean they can’t win. It just doesn’t mean it may not transfer to to real pro golf. I mean, how many Europeans come over here and make it? Yeah. Because the golf courses are so stinking long here, right? Um, so I don’t know. Again, the tour hasn’t asked me. That’s where it started. Um, I guess they frustrated about that. Like Lucas has said it too, like the new CEO called him, but and then the schedule came out and Lucas was just like, I’m not sure what the point is of talking to him. It’s these decisions have kind of already been made. Are you frustrated that I mean, the tour seems to just have a narrow view and they don’t really they don’t really out outside views. No, I mean I mean I saw Jay talking to Rory’s manager a lot. Um I um yeah I no yeah it frustrate me not because of my ego or me wanting to be involved. It’s because I represent their members and I used to believe that the tour worked for my my clients and I work for my clients. I thought that together our job was to create, you know, a great, you know, a great product and and it it seemed like that and I thought really, man, I was really they loved my attitude. I remember getting calls from the tour asking me questions in the mid late 90s because I had Davis and Justin and and I remember telling Vinnie, “I don’t know what they’re asking. I don’t know anything about this. Why are you talking to me?” And now I pro after 30 some years now I’m not now I’m not smart enough to know not even the ask and look and it’s fine the only problem I have is is that my members my my clients that are members of the tour are voting away opportunities to play golf for a living and I just like that doesn’t make any sense. There’s no sport in the world that’s constricting. Everything’s growing and they’re going I and I heard the word scarcity. I mean, well, you’re creating a clothes shop hoping that Scotty Shuffler doesn’t make a billion dollars and leave. And I mean, who do you replace him with? And and yeah, I like I said, does it frustrate me? Yes. But not because of I just would like to be there for my clients to help the tour maybe survive. Sure. I’d like for them to thrive. I should I shouldn’t say survive. Should I think they’ll be fine, but I want them to I’d like the tour to thrive. And yeah, I don’t see things they’re doing are going to make it thrive right now. Yeah. I mean, I’ve used this example many times. Uh, like I just I think I understand there’s a PR perspective from this, but I would love some honesty from the PJ tour. Don’t blame it on pace of play. Don’t blame it on the guy can’t get a massage after his round because it’s dark outside. Just say, “Hey, the 70 players are we what we think is the future and we would like to pay them and that’s why we’re doing this.” Like to the it’s the Harold Varnner going to live, right? Like all these guys that went to live, some of them are like, “Oh, I just want to play less and grow the game.” And Harold’s like, “Man, it’s an opportunity for me to have generational money changing life. I appreciate the PJ tour. This is what it is.” And no one gave Harold any about going like, “Wow.” Yeah, that’s a very valid point. I understand that. Like, that’s it. Like, just shoot people straight, man. I like I said, this is this is that emperor has no clothes, you know? Yeah. behind the scenes, everybody I talk to in my business, in the in the um manufacturing parts of the business, players that I represent and players I don’t represent to a man are all confounded by what’s happening. No one will talk about it because, you know, nobody wants to go against and and you I guess you can get cancelled in golf for being honest, right? And um and that and Lucas, you know, and again, I Lucas says what he wants to say. I don’t I you definitely don’t tell Lucas what to say or think because but he’s the brightest guy that I’ve ever represented. I mean by a long shot maybe if I’m the tourer I beg him and pay him to be on the board but they’re not going to put him on the board. Okay? They’re not going to want to hear him because he will fight for the younger guys. He will fight and say, “Listen, I don’t need to make $10 million to win a golf tournament at the expense of us not having a corn trade tour that you can make a living on.” right? And not having opportunities. He would say that they don’t want him. Uh the board they have, I mean, Tiger doesn’t play. The other board members will get all the sponsor exemptions for the for the signature events. You can just count on it. And that’s everybody goes, “Well, that’s max attitude.” No, everyone. The players, manufacturers, other managers say, “Well, guess who’ll get all these spots?” And just watch it happen. All right? So, that’s your you’re buying your board to vote for what you want to do and not what the members want to do. Mhm. And and I’m not saying that that’s what’s going to happen, but there is certainly an opportunity for that to happen. If you’re on the board, if they’re going to give you starts on non-cut events and you’re not in them, well, yeah, it’d be tough to then walk in a boardroom and go, “No, I don’t agree with what you’re doing.” I mean, that’s just natural, right? Um, that’s why that’s why to me, Mac, is like if I’m the leader of a company, I don’t have to agree with what Lucas says, but I I should listen to him because I mean, at Lucas’s age and the fact that he’s in all of these events, he is the prototypical player that is benefiting from all of these changes more than anyone. Scotty. Scotty in full field events. Not saying Lucas can’t compete, but I’m saying Lucas is at the end of his his window of and he is benefiting. He’s the one that should just like if if he doesn’t want to rustle any feathers, he just quiet and collects his big checks and no cut events. If I’m a leader of a company and I see a guy who’s benefiting the most, probably the most of any players in these fields, that’s the guy I want to listen to. That’s the person that you have to listen to is this is a guy who has literally everything to gain by the changes that have made everything. He’s fought off in his career to make the most money he can. He fought for opportunities like this is the greatest thing that’s ever happened to Lucas Club. this this this dude people go people are like you know he doesn’t want the LIB players back in all stuff and everybody you know it’s got nothing to do with it I think he was 170th on FedEx three years ago and Liv shows up and takes away a lot of the competition then he wins twice but he I don’t know that his win would have got him in the top 70 that how far down he was but he wins twice I don’t know how much money he’s made I looked at it but because of Liv showing up and and and so the tour is paying more money for less competition. So how would you can’t be Lucas is not mad, but Lucas is also not saying that’s not just his opinion. It’s a lot of players opinions. They just won’t say it. They they are scared. I I don’t know. I thought they own the tour. I really thought the members were the bosses of the people in Panava. I really did believe that. I mean, we all knew that they were, you know, they were all making money, but who cared? Everybody was making money. we were having fun. Um, when they started making these decisions, they started affecting a lot of people’s livelihoods and they started affecting the amount of charitable dollars that go from the tour and they started they affected a lot of people. So, naturally, someone that’s going to be honest is going to raise their hand and say, “Hey, I don’t get this.” Um, and again, I go everything I tell people and everybody knows my feelings, but I may be wrong. If I am, I am. I only know what to think from my experience of 34 years. Um, but it it goes back to Lucas. I know Caves Valley. Lucas got the crap kicked out of because he was on his radio show was very he didn’t like Caves Valley, but no one liked it. No one. He told me go, “Matt, no one. You should have heard the locker room blah blah blah.” And I said, “We’ll say it.” But he got destroyed by it. I heard from the tour about it. I’m like going, “Why can’t we have an opinion?” I mean, why can’t we just say what we think? Is it okay? And and if the tour thinks they’ve got this figured out and they got it, well, then they’re going to put Okay. Well, they’re going to throw their chips in. I heard Brandle say the other day, you know, you know, the tour’s doing better than ever. I said, why they have to borrow billion half dollars? They’re not doing better than ever, Brandle. And Brandle, you know, this is another thing. The golf channel just destroys live. Now, here’s a media agency that pro that reports on golf and here’s a new product to report on and you don’t report on it. You just beat it up. I’m thinking, well, that doesn’t make any sense. People got mad at me when people going to live. I said, dude, I hope there’s 20 new tours. I got clients. I want opportunities. That’s my job is opportunities. And now because of live, and I’m a big Liv fan. I think, look, I think team golf is the best golf going. I really do. I think if you don’t believe me, look at that Ryder Cup. I mean, there’s 1300 college golf programs that play team golf. There’s nothing wrong with team golf. They should nationalize it or regionalize it. So, it’s not just the Braves, it’s Atlanta Braves. They’ve got things they can do for the product. But I don’t care. I mean, I’ve got clients that need a place to play golf. I don’t care where it is. And I got kids I got guy going I got a kid going to the Bermuda Open tomorrow. Um I got kids in the challenge tour playing in China last week. Just give me a spot to play. I’m not arguing they’re in China and China’s a communist country. I’m like I don’t care. I never have. So look I I goes back to No, everyone thinks like pretty much what I’m saying and what Lucas is saying. Just no one will say it. I mean, I I don’t know what else the tour can do to me. I mean, I’m I think there’s a 40% chance less of getting a kid out of college on the tour now that there was before. So, I mean, you know, they can I don’t know. I like I said, I I don’t want I want the tour to thrive. I don’t want them just to survive. I want them to thrive. And I right now I haven’t seen anything they’ve done that makes me think that’ll happen. What’s the f future? I mean, does Liv have a place in the future of golf, Mac? Is there another tour? Is there is there like 10 years, five years, 15 years down the road? What is, in your opinion, what do you think golf looks like? Oh, I Oh, boy. Um, look, every year, I don’t think there’s a college player in the country that’s not planning on playing pro golf. I don’t How many kids turn How many kids turn pro every You might know this better than me, that 200. Yeah. I mean, I’m about to talk to a kid from a Yeah. I mean, okay. So, there’s there’s 2,000 people that are registered on the World Golf Ranking, right? There’s there’s top 2,000. Yeah. Um, and you got How many in the world turn pro every year? And how many are not on the two? So, how many is that 3,000 people a year? Yeah. How many playing opportun how many playing opportunities are in the world if you get add all the tours up? PGA, Cornferry, Canadian, Latin America, Challenge, DP, South American, Japanese. Is there a thousand places to play golf? Yes. 700. Yeah. 7. Okay. Okay. So, that would be back in business school lingo called supply and demand. Yeah. So, demand is there for pro golf. So, is Liv going to be there? Absolutely. Is there a place for Liv? Is there a place for other tours? Absolutely. um whether the tour the PJ tour do I think the PJ tour as it stands now will be what it is um no they can’t pay these kind of purses that this not sustainable I think they will do away with these signature events I think they’ll figure out that that’s closing the system and they need to cast a global net for talent and that talent is what they’re going to sell the sponsors and tour players so someone will gather up enough steam to go wait a minute I think this should go the other And if I’m live, I don’t have a qualifying school. I don’t have a I let teams draft players. I let Phil go pick a player to be on the team. Don’t let somebody Andy was really fortunate to win the Asian tour order of merit and get on live and and if he hadn’t got injured, he’d still be there. His wrist is bothering that, you know, Liv doesn’t have an injury protocol system. I mean, they got some things they got to fix. Um, but if I’m these 14 teams, I’m recruiting. I’m going around and drafting players like you would an, you know, like the NFL. I draft a guy. Don’t worry about what he shot on the 6,800 yard course. Who can fly around the world compete? Who can put up with it? Because, you know, I watch Matthew Wolf, you know, he struggles with the pro game. Uh, I don’t know the kid, but I’ I’ve just noticed some struggles. But if I would draft players and if I’m the PGA tour, I have a single A, double A, triple AAA. And then if you want to have these 10 signature events, okay, great. But I would be procuring talent and I would you’ve got former tour players that don’t play anymore. Maybe they’re injured. Hire those guys to go down and watch and help these young guys get to the next level. I mean, I remember Bill Calfie was the head of the Nike tour or head of buy.com, whichever what it was. Bill Calfie was on tour. I think he led driving distance one year with 276 yards average. Um, but they had ex players in that building. I mean, Dean Beaman obviously was a player and an ex-player when he was commissioner. Um, because go there’s something about golf. You got to have golf IQ. I I don’t it just it’s very important to understand the mentality of golfers. I mean, why they don’t have ex players tutoring? They used to We used to have a buddy system. You remember that part? I don’t know if you remember that, but they used to assign you a part a buddy out there, which is always funny. But just letting the way they’re going about it. So, 10 years from now, I think the tour will look so much different. Um, I think it the they’re just they’re gonna have to, you know, it’s like it’s like Liv showed up with a cannon for the fight and the tour had a spear and they said, “You know what? We’re going to take our rifle to this fight.” They that should have never been a fight. That was a negotiation, right? That’s the art of war. And so, yes, there’s going to be more golf, not less. Will people be making $50 million a year playing golf? No. But I’ve never understood this. Yes, they don’t make as much money as other sports, but they can play for four times longer. I mean, Davis played for 30 years on tour. What’s an average running back in NFL? I don’t care if he’s making 20 million a year. He’s playing four or five years. He’s done. I mean, golfers can play from So, like I said, so 10 years, I think the whole I think you’re going to see less college golf. I think kids are going to play pro are going to go play pro. I think colleges are in trouble causing AI anyhow, but I think you’re going to see more of a a steer a stepping system that these tours create to produce talent. Um, I think they’re going to they’re going to bring golfers maybe back into the fold of making decisions. Um, but I think there’s going to be some really rough road ahead for the next few years until they figure it out. And I don’t know what this TV contract’s going to look like they’re preparing for, but I know how much people watch golf. Yeah. and it’s not there. So yeah, I think I think all of us in the golf world, me included, forget what a niche sport that that golf is. Like talking like bowling can out view PJs were events at the time, man. That’s what it was like. I remember contracts, you know, pre-tiger contracts. I mean, and post Tiger contracts. I mean, you can’t even the zeros. You can’t imagine. We didn’t get smarter. We didn’t do anything different. all of a sudden just people knew about golf and there’s a lot of people that benefited from that and and right now and they benefited from that and now there’s a lot of guys benefiting from the fact that Lyft came in and and and the amount of money they paid and people are all concerned about that and you know I I know publicly held companies that are valued at 10 billion dollars that didn’t make a profit for six or seven years. Yeah. And this continually talking about how much Liv makes and loses. I don’t why is that relative? What what’s this Trey Ringo guy? I just He’s all of a sudden I’ve seen him. He’s on a bashing mission. Yeah. I don’t And I I’m like I don’t I didn’t even know he played golf, but I guess he does. And I didn’t know he covered golf. I guess he does. But the stuff he’s saying is so uninformed and it’s so negative and and derisive to golf. I mean, um it doesn’t do any good for us. It’s It’s kind of like we and I were talking about the Ryder Cup. You know, the North the New York fans, they helped Europe. Yeah. Because they went so far over the line, they pissed them off. Yeah. And that’s the reason there’s bar fights. When you get mad, you don’t get nervous. These guys were not nervous. They were mad. And again, I think they thought they were helping the American team, but they they make you can’t do that. and and why the Americans stood up for it. And I mean, the PG of America, I mean, hired somebody to do a chant the way they did. If I had a kid there, I can’t tell you how many PG of America people I talked to, members that said they were going to resign. That that was just a travesty. That and I’m sure they didn’t. But these are all the things I think it’s time for leadership in golf to get together and actually lead golf and quit having this you’re not going to run live in the ground. I’m sorry. And my big question is is if Liv shut doors tomorrow just said we’re done. What’s it matter? The tour’s already they’re already on their path. Yeah. And then I heard I heard this Trey Ringo guy and Brandle talking about there’s going to be penalties and fines and they’re going to have to sit out for a period. And I’m thinking who? Wait a minute. Talent is what the tour is selling to TV and sponsors. It’s not the tour, it’s the talent. And so if you had Bryson Dshambo available to play again, you’re gonna do what to him? You’re probably going to have to pay him to come play. Yeah. And they probably would. I mean, I hear there’s I hear there’s appearance fees being paid right now by tour events to players. Now, it’s always been illegal. Now, there’s always ways around it. You know, there was cocktail party deals, but I heard a company paid parents fees for a signature event to make sure the people showed up. I did. I I don’t have perfect knowledge. I had nobody pay Lucas. But if that’s going on and they’re for profit, then how long is it before the top four or five guys walk in the offices doors of the tour and say, “Hey, look, you’re selling me to this.” It’s kind of like when the caddies, they wanted compensation for the bibs, you know? Yeah. I mean, since it’s for profit, this is not a nonprofit anymore. This is business. So, how long I kept thinking anytime now union leader is going to show up. There’s going to be a union guy come in and go, “All right, we’re going to negotiate this for you.” Right. Um, hadn’t happened, but I just keep thinking, well, you going for profit. There’s a there’s a union in every other major sport. Yeah. I think the LPG even has a union. Yeah. I mean, and I keep thinking, okay, there’s examples many times. I mean, Charlie Belgian just had to resign his PGA Tour membership to play in a a two time event uh night league par three part three uh of course like we’ve lost our we’ve lost the plot. He he had to res he had to I mean I I haven’t I didn’t know he was still playing golf but um I mean that’s he’s not but somehow he had to resign his membership to play in a par three. So how many Yeah. How many PJ tour members are there, Ryan? I mean, there’s a 200, 300. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I’m saying they they own the media rights for 300 people. And how many of them are really benefiting right now? 50, 60. Yeah. Right. And I don’t know how union stuff works, but I don’t I think you have to have 51% to have a union. There’s probably 51% of the guys are going like, “Hey, uh, what are you doing?” Um, but you know, we you were telling me about I was a guy called me about I don’t know how many people signed up for Q school this year. Do you know? Is it 3,000 people? Yeah, probably. Yeah, I mean, uh there’s besides Yeah, there’s Okay. Okay. So, you pay six grand. What is it? 1500. 15. Okay. Okay. So, so six grand to do that. Okay. So, there’s going to go all the stages and they’ll go to the finals. I think there’s 168 people in the finals. There’s five tour cards. Yeah. And then 45 and ties get a cornfair card. Right. So let’s say 55 opportunities to play pro golf on the PJ tour, cornfair PJ tour. That leaves 113 that the tour now owns their media rights but have no opportunity to play. 113 people. That’s all through everything that goes on. And that’s what happened to Andy. Andy had never played in a cornfair event. He finished a 100th in corn Fury qualifying and they suspended him and he’s never played in the event. I don’t know how you pay a tour to go through all the sites qualifying to get to the finals and essentially give them your media rights but you don’t have anywhere to play. And then Charlie Belgium is it Belgium? I bet Charlie hasn’t played in He won a golf tournament and I guess that gives the tour lifetime media rights. Is that right? I guess it’s wild. Yeah, there’s no union. If there was a union, you’ve never this would never happen. You just can’t you just can’t without paying for it, right? I mean, so yeah, all this probably doesn’t, you know, I don’t understand everything on the tour. Um, I understand this though. understand that whatever product they is out there on that golf course is what they’re selling to TV and sponsors and they’re doing everything they can it looks from my point of view to make sure that they keep what they have right now but to make sure nothing else shows up. Yeah. And so we’ll see. But uh it’s like I said I I’ve never seen anything like this. I’m glad I’m not glad I’m old, but I’m glad that I’m not in this business 25 at 25 years old trying to figure out what college kid I can sign that’s going to get a because the only way you’re really going to make any money is to get one of these kids and get a card out of college. Yeah. Because these companies are paying a lot of money for these kids to get their tour cards handed to them, which is another subject. But with no idea if this guy can handle the the battle fatigue that’s going to hit them. And and think about this. If you get your card from college, you get a year and a half to play on tour, right? They get it this year and the next year. Yeah. Yeah. You go to you go to qualifying school, three sites, get your cornfy card through all that, and you get one year. Yeah. Now, here’s a guy that’s somewhat proven at a professional level. You give him one year to make it. college kid that may have been paid to go to this college, played well, played in all the right events, you know, maneuvered himself to get this cornfair event, I mean, get a tour card and then goes out, never been out there, never played, and you’re playing against a kid that just went through three stages of Q school. I it just make that’s I mean, it’s idiotic to me. Maybe they know something I don’t know, but again, it’s all reactive. We know this. They’re just responding hoping Liv doesn’t take this player. And Liv’s done the same thing. They’ve gone and grabbed kids that won US amateur. Let’s put him out here. Yeah. Um let’s They couldn’t handle it either. I mean, Andy Okatry has it struggled. He had played around the world. I mean, he had got hurt. He’s been fine. But yeah, it’s this is something. I mean, I don’t know. I mean, I’ve got my popcorn, though. This is going to be a it’s going to be a crazy ride. And and this and this, like I say, this is the first time they brought anyone outside to lead this. So, and he I don’t think he’s a golfer. Yeah. Okay. Well, good luck, man. I mean, and who are you talking to? Tiger? Because see, Tiger wasn’t even on tour before Tiger. So, whatever Tiger knows about the tour was when he was there, if that makes any sense. He doesn’t understand the metrics of 1994 of who was watching, how much companies were paying, what purses were. Um, so I don’t know who is he who’s he talking to? Who are they talking to? I don’t know. Not me. Mac, I appreciate you very much. I said same to Lucas. Mac and I talk a lot. Uh, I’ve learned through my short time doing what I’m doing, it’s hard to tell the truth, quite frankly. And, uh, there’s just very few people in golf directly that that do it on a daily basis. Mac and Lucas are are one of the few. And, uh, appreciate all of our private conversations and our our public ones. I appreciate Well, man, I I appreciate what you do. You know, you we followed you. I mean, when people would Monday qualify, it’s a big thing for us, you know, and you were the first one to lay a highlight for it, and we could start learning who did it, and we didn’t have to go and call and check and see who who Monday qualified. Um, so I mean, you’re, like I say, you’re a truth speaker, too, and I’m sure it’s not easy on you. I’m sure you get calls from people telling you to watch what you say. My phone has pondered too often on its call history. Well, and again, I don’t, like I said, again, people, the golfing world knows what’s happened. They all know the truth. They know that although a golf channel to essentially report on Goff doesn’t do that. It’s It’s not that. We know that. Staterun TV. We know that. We know that people that tell the truth get their hand slapped. They get they get threatened or whatever they’re going to do. Um, but I think those threatening days are over, man, because I mean they’re for they’re public now. I mean, I’ve got every I think I’ve got every tax return the tire that the tourists filed as a nonprofit. And I see in there what what their mission statements were. And in a snap of a finger, it’s not that. And I think that’s and like a lot of things in this world, the threats and what you’re going to do to me, like they’re they better be busy doing what they do, learning because they’ve got their hands full now. Um, and I so I appreciate what you’ve done. And I, like I said, I know that it’s not easy being authentic in this world anymore, but you know, this is just golf. You know, I’m not criticizing the government, religion, or anything, which I’m I can do that, too, but I’m not doing it on live TV. But it’s just just goth, man. I mean, come on. I mean, I don’t know what what they’re what they’re thinking. Um, but we, like I said, get your popcorn. This is going to be interesting. I appreciate it, May. Thank you. Thanks for listening. Always. Oh, man. Thanks, buddy. See you.