Representing Tiger Woods and Greg Norman: Superagent Hughes Norton
all [Music] right everyone we got a very special US Open recap heading your way on this week’s subpar but as always this episode is brought to you by Fanatic Sportsbook and great golf is coming including some huge majors and Fanatic Sportsbook has even more ways to get in on the action the latest update you can now parlay multiple players combine picks like the outright winner with top five 10 or 20 finishes poll scores and even who makes the cut plus me and Drew are dropping our weekly subpar picks right in the Fanatic Sportsbook app so you can ride with us every week and if you’re new here’s a bonus sign up and bet $20 and you’ll get a $200 in bonus bets just use the code subpar when you join so much great golf ahead and so many ways to bet all in the Fanatic Sportsbook app also Fanatics Vest is going down June 20th through 22nd in New York City big names exclusive merch and plenty of chaos come see it for yourself we will also be doing a live show so come hang with us with special guest CC Sabathia use code subpar 15 for 15% off all tickets at fanaticsfest.com not available in all states terms apply see Fanatics Sportsbook app gambling problem call 1800 gambler connecticut 888-789-777 massachusetts 800 327-50 new York 8778NY maryland mdgamblinghelp.org all right CES just another victory for the subpar podcast and this time a major jj Spawn is your winner of the 125th US Open at a brutal Oakmont month the only man to finish under par how about it that was a hell of a good open i heard a lot of like people earlier in the week like this is boring this isn’t fun there’s not a lot going on i don’t know like we’ll get into the course setup and stuff i thought it was awesome it’s exactly what I wanted one guy finished under par that’s by the way with a lot of rain coming on the weekend i would have loved to have seen as a spectator what that would have looked like if it had stayed dry but
well they still might be playing because it would take
around a mess but I would have enjoyed every second of it we get to what like four holes left we got five guys tied for the lead it was awesome and JJ Spawn man shout out to the rain for JJ Spawn cuz he started off five over through six things were going fast things weren’t going his way full regroup wardrobe change new shirt comes out played the best golf coming home and I honestly I mean I think he played the best golf all week minus that five that sixhole stretch starting off the final round i mean he was awesome
pretty funny that mother nature played such a big role on Father’s Day
ooh nice little mother and father there
right
but man you’re right five over through six and all of a sudden a little timeout and 40 something minutes by the way Tiger looked great during the weather delay how many people woke up from their naps were like tigers in this
what just happened
holy [ __ ] he’s leading
but yeah the delay jj comes out he said you know comes out on number nine hits a seed right down the middle on a very difficult hole and then off and running the putt at 12 the drive at 17 the putt at 18 just unbelievable the two longest putts he’s made all year on the back nine at the US Open on Sunday to get it done 40 ft on 12 which he hit like a 3-in putt that was unbelievable that was the one that got the mo like make you start believing like okay and then 18 just 64 ft two putts to win how about one right in the middle place went absolutely berserk how about this from a data golf okay at 6:33 p.m local time up there he had a 1.8% chance to win it’s like the Mavericks winning the lottery yes at 8:05 when that putt went in obviously 100% chance so in a little over an hour and a half he went from 1.8% to a winner of the US Open man it it it was a hell of I had no idea he was down that low i felt like he had more than a 1% chance i guess
with seven to play I believe
um yeah made some birds coming home the drive on 17 that’ll I don’t care what he does the rest of his career he might win four more majors but he’ll probably look back at that one like that’s the best shot I’ve ever hit um I mean he started making putts 18 to hit that drive under like a bunch of guys have been bogging 18 bunch of guys that I’d bet on by the way seemed to be bogging 18 and I was like “This is not a layup.” Par coming home wet he hits a beautiful drive good second shot little left maybe of where he was looking and shout out Victor Havlin coming in there hitting it damn near like the odds of that on that green to hit it a foot away from JJ’s ball on damn near an identical line and letting him watch it runs it by a little bit jj said “I saw that.” You know took a little off of it right in the gut he deserved some good breaks he got some [ __ ] on the front n the shot on two i don’t care what you say that’s two shot swing the ball was coming back i think that’s a I think that’s a tap in and then hitting the rake on four cost him two it just seems like everything was fast and going wrong like that rain delay
man he’s going to look back on that and be like that’s the one that changed his career
yeah i mean Adam Shriber his longtime swing coach and then Josh Gregory who he hired to help him with his short game just this week but congratulations to both of them they’ve done awesome work he’s always been a flusher but to chip it the way he did is what really helped him i know it’s crazy to think he was
he shot 40 on the front nine and I believe was 0 for six scrambling for the day and won the US Open
that’s nuts i mean just
we had Josh Gregory on our SiriusXM show earlier today and it’s like not even just getting the ball up and down and open out that stuff it’s just don’t make the big number like there’s places you miss the green out there that you’re just hoping not to two chip as he referred we saw Sam Burns do it on 15 after a very questionable ruling not to give him a drop out of a lot of water but we saw him come up short with that pitch shot but JJ Spawn man just was cool calm and collected the whole day it looked like and I know Adam and Josh both kind of got in his ass a little bit during the rain delay and said “Hey you’re trying too hard let’s relax you’re playing the best golf anyone out here let’s go out there and get this thing done.” They said “If you would have if we would have told you on Monday you’d be four back with nine holes to play at the US Open you’d have been signed me up.” Yeah
and man he went out there and just he lit up that back nine to shoot 32 on that nine holes in those conditions respect
yeah i mean how could you not be trying too hard i mean his first time in that position go look at his major championship finishes up to this point there ain’t a whole lot of yellow
on that thing in fact there’s zero according to the Wikipedia i think 23 or 26 maybe 23 I believe is is best ever but you and I have talked about him a lot on this show i had him at a bet last week as a top 20 uh not optimistic enough yeah not optimistic enough but we’ve seen it we you know we know what world class golf looks like jj for a long time like man this is it then finally the players like we saw it he could he is a lip in from Roy Moy on the 72nd hole the players away from being your players champion and US Open champion and very much in if not leading the the ballot for player of the year he’d be right there and now he’s he’s slam dunk rider cup now
yeah he’s number three on the US point standings he’s going to be wearing the red white and blue up at Beth Page uh so pumped for him man i I I played with him I believe in like 2012 he was still on the Canadian tour and he was one of those guys that if you’re high enough up on the Order of Merit over there you get a spot in the Canadian Open i played with him on Sunday i was like “Damn this kid’s this kid’s pretty good why are you out here on the mini tours right now always loved his swing i I I tell you all the time like him and Harris English are probably my two favorite moves through the golf ball i’ll throw Lud Vigberg up there as well just as far as their rotation through the golf ball he just makes it look so simple like JJ’s golf swing i not much can go wrong in my opinion if his short game’s on he’s gonna be up there and I’m not saying this is gonna open the floodgates i’m not going to use that at all this is awesome that a guy like JJ Spawn a journeyman from San Diego State is now a major champion and I think he’s starting to believe
what we have said how good he is and that he does belong up there on major championship leaderboards and does belong contending on the PGA tour most weeks
i think the players did that for him i don’t think I think without that experience he probably doesn’t win this past week and uh I mean he’s been so good for so long i don’t like there’s no floodgates like oh he’s going to go win four more majors but like I expect JJ Spawn to be around for a long time like years to come i think he’ll be relevant like a winner on the PGA tour the only thing that was not up to snuff in his game was that short game i mean quick work with Josh Gregory it looked good we’ll see what that does going forward but like he just his bad we talk about it all the time like he he’s just so good ter Green it’s like the the volatility of his game shouldn’t really be all that high he had a tough week at Memorial leading up to this i played with him last week and I was talking about Oakmont what do you think he’s like I don’t know dude he’s like I’m going to get my ass kicked i don’t know if I’ll break 80 i think he said the same to you i think he said it to multiple people i was like dude you just have to hit fairways and like that’s what you do that’s your strength like you know the more they put the emphasis on hitting the fairway hitting on the green I think the more that favors you like yeah we’ll see
his uh his trainer Carson Kip who works with Sarah Schmemell obviously yeah but Sarah shout out to her her win’s coming soon too by the way but they text me on Sunday and they’re like “This is unbelievable.” He was home last week just bitching the whole time about how he’s hitting it not going to break 80 at Oakmont now his life just completely changed yeah it happens fast and honestly I think it’s kind of a similar trajectory to just a couple years ago where Windham won you know at Quill Hall no one he hadn’t really done much up to that point wins that that gives him the confidence then he goes out and wins a US Open and I know JJ didn’t get it done at the players but going toe-to-toe with Rory on that against that field the best field in golf that I think gave him the belief that he could do it at a US Open and um man there ain’t no there’s no flukes around Oakmont there you don’t get away with anything
no the rough five and a half inches long i mean if it would have been fairway running 20 30 yards like when Anne Hill won I mean we’re talking Justin Thomas tweeted seven to 10 over would have probably won uh you know I I like I like there being a premium on driving accuracy now when you hit it two inches off the fairway and you’re chopping it down the hill like JJ did off the first hole and thank God it was downhill cuz it ran all the way up there but it punished you i mean you couldn’t fake it around there if you look at a lot of the big names that missed the cut most of them are smashers and they’re not the most accurate um other than Sept Straa out of the top 10 guys in the world which I was shocked that he didn’t play better
but you you had to hit fairways out there and if you didn’t you were punished i mean it wasn’t trying to get it up around the green it was just trying to get it back in the fairway scotty Sheffler on the 72nd hole who Sneaky was like he’s going to birdie the last few holes and he’s going to he’s going to win this
it was It was right there it was like crazier things have happened
but like that shot he hit on 18 out of the rough i mean he literally went dead sideways and swung as hard as he could to hit it 40 yards
yeah and I personally loved it we get enough weeks a year where the Bombers have the huge advantage to hit in the rough who cares you know that’s just the way they play hit as hard as I can go get it more or less right it’s fun to have a week where like that doesn’t matter as much in a perfect world I think I would have a little bit of graduated rough because I think if especially when the fairways get firm and bouncy you hit a good drive if it scoots 6 in it just trickles into the rough i’m like should probably have a better opportunity to advance the ball than a guy that flew it 15 yards off the green but I don’t care i thought I thought Oakmont did a great job usj did a good job not pressing any pins golf course is hard enough i don’t think they did it i think they got I want to say lucky but rain helped cuz that thing could have become a runway out there and it could have been out of control but I love it for one week a year yeah tough [ __ ] hit less glove hit it in the fairway like let’s it’s let’s test all aspects of the game other than putting such an emphasis on one like we do all the time
last time I checked there’s a reason they mow that grass so low you’re that’s where you’re trying to hit it so you can actually have control of the golf ball it’s called fairway for a reason like we you should have to try and hit those i mean when you hit it long and you hit it straight you should get rewarded and not long and crooked so I’m with you i I don’t want to see these guys hacking it out every single week but every once in a while yeah let’s make it where the guys that have a little precision have a somewhat of maybe an advantage or at least they can compete with these long guys
yeah every other week it’s the other way around and when I think of a US Open I think toughest test in golf like that was the stereotypical US Open in my mind have to hit fairways greens brutally hard and it was even soft out there but I was like that’s what I expect and they moved the place around and like Pinehurst was a little different obviously they’re never going to have the the huge rough and the things like that but that’s what I think of um when I think of a US Open and I I think they did a phenomenal job and Oakmont was was great
and congratulations to JJ Spawn you’re a US Open champion you’re a major winner you’ll always have that and we’re pumped for you over here at Subpar um let’s get zoned in s with our good friends over at zone and we were zoned in over at the sphere in Las Vegas if you have not been to the sphere let me tell you you got to make a trip we went up there saw Kenny Chzn on Wednesday night that screen I don’t care what videos you’ve seen it does not do it justice that place is I I feel like I’ve been to a few concerts in my day i don’t know if you can find a better venue than that right there
that that’s going to become I think for the performers like I want to do Madison Square Garden or I want to do Grand Old Opry i want to do a sphere like it’s if if you’ve ever been to an IMAX it’s like an IMAX but 180° around looking up same thing i’ve never been to a concert where I watch the performer less than I did at the speed i was just watching the screen then they take you on these rides and stuff it’s hell of a good time
yeah trust me you got to go check it out kenny was phenomenal i know you probably already pre-ordered your tickets for Backstreet Boys
don’t say less
they’re coming next man that was awesome all right let’s get to some gambling here sleeves okay awesome job picking JJ Spawn for the top 20 my man Xander Shafle missed the top 10 by shot that was
heartbreaking if you haven’t downloaded the Fanatic Sportsbook app make sure you do follow along with us because we’re on to the Travelers Championship a signature event after just an ass whipping of a major sleeve
go ahead and saddle back up guys don’t love it i hate it less than the week before a major championship i think that’s terrible they can only lock in so many times but yeah having it um the week after we’ll go see who’s got anything left in the tank it might be one of those weeks like guys that played great last week maybe you short them because they’re gassed
yeah four days there just getting your head kicked in hopefully the Hartford Heckler takes a week off
i was going to ask you do we have eyeballs on this
i’ve been looking i’ve been looking i’m waiting on somebody just to randomly say it’s
got to know this dude like they had to be there with him when he was like “Oh yeah it’s the guy that
freshes.” Well as far as I know pretty much everybody that’s qualified is playing i I I think Cory Connor is the only guy that he had to withdraw at the US Open because of a bad wrist
that killed my top Canadian back he was like 15th
yeah that one that one stung so hopefully he gets well soon but all right here’s my pick this week
he had a very disappointing week last week he’s missed three cuts this year every time after he comes back after miss his worst finish is T13
so he bounces back and this golf course is not long and he’s not the longest he’s played phenomenal this year he’s plus 280 to top 10 sea is going to bounce back this week in the travel
no no disagreement from me love Se was so high on him last week was shocked that he didn’t play good that is a perfect US Open setup for him all right I’m going to go against everything I just said where your short guys that played good last week and gave themselves a chance but got a guy that’s dude he’s finally starting to round into form talent-wise he’s a monster haven’t quite had the results that I think most people expect from this guy but the last three weeks he had a 25th and then he’s got finished fourth and fourth the last two weeks including at Oakmont where he was right there all the way up to the end cam Young
okay
top 20 plus 165
okay almost went with Harmon because shortcut and he didn’t play his best was going to go the other way he didn’t have much stress on the weekend probably just getting it around but I’m going to go with Cam see if he can make a move here late in the year get up there rder Cup sub it’s coming
woods where he’s from too
the lights are going to be bright up there please and right here
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i’m very excited for our guest this week uh I had this gentleman reach out through through a friend of mine and wanted to come on the show and I obviously learned a lot about him we actually read a book for him
look at us look at us um
took me three months
if you haven’t please go order this book it’s called Rain Maker by Hughes Norton who is a sup golf super agent been in the business forever was Tiger Wood’s first agent representing Greg Norman while he was over at IMG his story is fascinating here’s Hughes Norton on Golf Subpar okay we are very excited to welcome on our guest today he is one of the original super agents in the game of golf representing Greg Norman Tiger Woods and a number of other world-class talents also the author of Rain Maker which gives a very interesting look inside his storied career with IMG a very fascinating read hughes Norton joins us hughes thank you so much for the time hey Cole pleasure to be here hey Drew well Hughes I can tell you this the fact that you got us two to both read an entire book we we applaud you because we we’re not big readers around here i think I’ve gone Rain Maker uh Billy Walters’s book and Bringing Down the House those are my last three reads that’s nice i knock out a few doctors
if I’m included if I’m included in the in that trio uh George and I are very honored
yeah shout out to George Pepper who wrote this wonderful book with you but obviously I mean your story is just amazing getting to represent some of the best in the game including Tiger Woods and Greg Norman but I want to know more about this book like what made you want to write this well great question um you know my ending came so suddenly and and sort of semi-tragically as you saw at the end of the book you know first fired by Tiger Woods and and 6 months later by the only guy I’d ever worked for Martin McCormack at IMG that I really had a you know bad taste in my mouth kind of bitter kind of obviously upset and really disappeared from the scene for years and decades really and all during that time from like 99 to really 2022 or three I would get two or three times a year you know Golf Magazine or ESPN or Golf Digest or uh guys writing books about Tiger or Greg would call me get in touch with me say “Hey you know I want to talk to you tell us some stories from the past.” And I really never wanted to do that i felt like I should just take the high road and plus my heart wasn’t in it i still was kind of harboring resentment I guess or just just the way it all ended because I went from unbelievable success as you saw to just absolutely out the door thank you very much so um this persisted for a while and finally a kid that um was in our business used to work at IMG and and and then left and founded his own firm and ended up joining Wasserman in the end named Chris Mullhop um called me one day he said “You know there’s a really cool podcast that you ought to go on.” And being the dinosaur I am I said “Podcast you know what’s that tell me what’s that.” So he said “Uh there’s this guy uh Chris Solomon at No Laying Up and he’d love to talk to you about your years at IMG.” And I said “Chris I don’t want to do that.” You know same old reasons he said “Come on it’s been so long just do it.” So I did it and Chris would ask all the different questions about Tiger and Greg and all my years at IMG and it was kind of fun and stunned how many people you guys came up to me the next week or two saying how they’d heard the podcast and how much they enjoyed it and they were really unlikely people if you’d asked me to make a list of who might have listened to it I never would have put these people down and all of a sudden I get a email from George Pepper Golf Magazine’s own George Pepper for 25 years the editor-inchief and George and I hadn’t corresponded or communicated in at least 10 years and he said “Hugh loved your podcast is it time we finally wrote that book?” To which I responded “George what book?” It never even occurred to me
so one thing led to another he had a fabulous literary agent in New York um and we thought well maybe you know I still was sort of reluctant and then I started thinking you know hey I’m 75 years old it’s the 50th anniversary of me leaving IMG sorry joining IMG and the 25th anniversary of leaving and if I don’t do it now when am I ever going to do it not that I had ever thought about doing a book and I remembered something my dad said to me once he said ‘You know if we don’t memorialize our stories they vanish and I thought you know every time I’m with friends and that things come up and I tell some stories they say “Oh man those are great.” So that kind of pushed me over the edge and uh George and I got to work and believe me guys writing a book is hard work and I had one of the great golf writers of the last 25 or 30 years in George Pepper but it was really 18 solid months of of hard work we got a nice advance from Simon and Schustster and uh the rest is kind of history
we’re glad you did it because there’s some really cool unique you know inside perspective from your time at IMG and I guess we can just start at the beginning I guess if that’s easiest i mean you’re Yale guy Harvard Business School you could have gone into any industry I would imagine with that resume and you go into sports management you meet a guy named Mark McCormack uh the founder of IMG can you give some background he played a huge role in your life some background on who he is and how you kind of got connected with him initially yeah I met him at Harvard Business School um we it’s the case method there you have a case about a different company um three different cases a night and I’m there in my second year and all of a sudden there’s a case about sports management now I got to rewind and set the scene here if today the sports industry and the sports management industry and agency in general has completely overwhelmed professional sport and now am sport it seems with college back then it was really a nent industry just beginning so I’m reading this case about McCormack and IMG and how he started with Arnold Palmer and I’m thinking wow this is actually something you could do for a living anyway um Mark was a lawyer in Cleveland Ohio he was a good golfer himself he won the Chicago school boys championship when he was in his teens and he played some events and meanwhile practicing law in Cleveland he plays the US Open once qualified and he’s in the locker room and couple guys come up to him Billy Casper was one and says “Mark hey you’re a lawyer right i’ve got this contract from Wilson Sporting Goes i don’t have a clue you know could you would you mind taking a look at this so that happened two or three times and he’s thinking to himself hey man these guys need help so he had met Arnold Palmer mark was at William and Mary and Arnold played at Wake Forest they didn’t play each other but when the teams played the college teams played um they had met um briefly so they knew each other few years goes by Mark goes to law school practices law in Cleveland gets this idea in his head starts booking exhibitions and and special events for pros and all of a sudden Arnold who is his friend and who he’d done some little deals for takes off if you guys recall he wins the Masters in 58 wins again in 60 is overwhelmed with all this outside stuff coming to him and he calls Mark one day and says “Mark would you work with me?” I’m not even sure he used the word represent he said “I need somebody to to look at this outside stuff my business affairs are just too overwhelming i’m trying to play you know championship golf and I can’t do it all.”
So that was the famous moment in the history of sports management guys when it’s called the golden handshake
arnold and Mark shook hands and believe it or not in a world of contracts and litigation and everything we face today in the 45 years they were together there was never anything written between Mark and Arnold just a handshake
that’s crazy
and Mark several times you know down the road said “Arnold you know we really need to get this formalized in writing you never know what’s going to happen.” Arnold looked at Mark and said “Why you know my words my bond
our handshake’s good i don’t need to sign anything.” So that was pretty cool
yeah that’s just an unbelievable story that all those years they went on just a handshake but it obviously you you he takes you under his wing you start working in the agent business end up running the golf division there at IMG can you just tell the people out there just some of the clients obviously Tiger and Greg but some of the other clients that you represented well over the the three decades um and I never even figured this out until I started doing the book believe it or not never occurred to me i signed recruited and signed and managed myself six number one golfers
wow
and sort of historically they were uh Tom Watson that was a very brief um period of representation as you guys saw in the book thanks to his wife and his brother-in-law who once the going good decided they wanted in on it and they wanted to do it themselves which is fine you know that happens but Tom Watson was the first nancy Lopez Curtis Strange David Duval Greg Norman and Tiger Woods in an agent’s world if you can represent a couple of number one players I mean you’ve had a career
and sometimes only one and through luck opportunity skill hard work whatever I had those six guys over that nearly 30 years and then of course our firm had all kinds of other uh top players in Europe alone our guys over there John Simpson and his team img represented Sandy Lyle um Ian Woo Nick Faldo Bernard Langard that was just a succession of number one guys so the firm was doing great um and deserved its reputation you know Mark just a little historical background after Arnold a young South African golfer came along named Gary Player he hit the US scene he’d known Palmer arnold told about Mark gary was Mark’s second client and then Jack Nicholas in 1961 decided to turn pro and there’s that whole thing in the book which is pretty cool where Jack meets with Arnold I mean with Mark um and Jack says “You know this is hard for people to comprehend in this multi-million dollar world.” But Jack says to to Mark you know I’m kind of thinking of staying amateur i’ve been selling life insurance and I think if I could you know make 10 or 12,000 a year doing that and play amter golf I I I think it would it would be fine for my life um what do you what do you think I could do but Mark went away and did some preparation came back and said “Well you can make a h 100,000 or so when you turn ProJack.” Now 100,000 in 1961 guys was I don’t know at as zero maybe more um and of course that led to Jack being client number three
so we and then as the book traces and this is what’s fun about the book you know it’s my story as an agent but it’s also a lot about Mark and about the formation of sports management as you saw um and and it’s kind of been forgotten you know what this guy did and what he essentially decided at a critical point in the company’s history he had Arnold Gary and Jack and he said to himself “You know what i love golf i can have a very nice life representing these three superstars for the next 20 25 years i’ll make a lot of money or I can take what I’ve learned with these guys in golf and transform it take it to other sports.” because he knew without even checking that tennis players were going through the same issues team sport players race car drivers whatever um kind of needed help and Mark had this drive inside um to create a bigger and bigger company with more and more officers and more and more employees that’s what really that’s what really drove him and uh that became the history of IMG yeah it’s it’s unbelievable that the number of clients through all the sports that he uh that y’all represented over there but one that I thought that jumped out
I always tell I always tell people just to interrupt for a sec and you tell people IMG sports and and and we said well we represented clients pretty a pretty diverse lineup and they said what do you mean i said ‘Well Derek Cheeter and Serena Williams sure but we also represented it Pearlman the greatest violinist in the world and Margaret Thatcher and people say “Whoa.” And then I then I add a final client that IMG actually represented for a short period of time the Pope
yeah that’s a good one
that’s nice
that’s a tough sign
who would have thought the Pope needed representation not the Vatican that’s for sure
that’s hilarious before we get back to our interview with Hughes Norton a quick note from Golf Pride if you care about putting and let’s be real we all do you’ve got to try the new reverse taper putter grip from Golf Pride i just swap mine out and right away you can feel how it helps square the face at impact the larger lower hand design gives you way more control no matter how you grip it it’s a quick upgrade that actually makes a difference go to golfpride.com and use code subpar20 for 20% off a full set up to 13 swing grips and one putter grip offer ends August 31st now back to Hughes uh one I wanted to touch on that I thought was fascinating that I came across in the book was Colin Montgomery who was actually trying to be get into the agency business went out and played a proamp shot 29 at Turnberry and everybody’s like “Hey I I think we need to be representing you.”
Fabulous story um I get this email nobody ever you know he was at Houston Baptist actually he came over to college in the States um none none of us in those days tracked the few Europeans that came over like so many of them now that you know Lugreek Oberg and Sept Straa go down the list but in those days it was like you know no big deal and uh I got this email from our London office saying there’s this kid named from Scotland named Colin McGomery he’s been in the States going to college he’d like to come in and talk to you he was about you know working as an agent at IMG just was always open and receptive to that so one day Colin McGomery is in Hughes Norton’s office sitting on the other side of the table being interviewed for a job as an agent so we were prepared to go down that path and so was Colin and I said “Look what are you doing the next couple weeks?” He said “I’m going back to England.” I said “Well look um all of our top golf people and management people happen to be at Turnbury um next weekend for an event would you kind of go up there and see them because I think the best thing for you would be to start in London and then maybe come over later once you got a little agent training and work in the States for me he said “Yeah sounds fine.” So there was a mixup and he didn’t get there on time so all the IMG guys go out and play the front nine at Turnbury right colin shows up borrowed somebody’s clubs and shoes and shot 29 on the back nine at Turnbury to which Ian Todd who was our managing director in London over drinks and dinner that night took Colin aside and he said “Lad I kind of think it would work out better for us to work for you than to you work for us.” He was very impressed
that’s awesome
and look at look look at what happened colin wins what was it seven consecutive
European Order of Merits and Hall of Fame career it’s funny how life goes unbelievable
he could have been a hell of an agent and Jack could have been a hell of an insurance salesman too what What could have been but you rep so many great players as you mentioned you know throughout your career a bunch that you said prior to Greg Norman i want to go to Norman for a minute because he’s probably the first pro golfer I can think of and you helped you helped accomplish this but with a global brand so when you court Norman and he’s different I would assume than a lot of the other guys out there his ambitions fall outside of golf how do you how do you court him greg um started out in Australia young pro playing the circuit down there made his way to Asia and eventually to Europe by that time he had signed with another u guy to represent him an English guy one man show um and so there was not immediate um success or immediate representation like there was with most of my other clients so in those instances you kind of just uh b your time uh I got to know Greg we hit it off as friends i’d see him in the locker rooms and tournaments and one thing led to another he was having problems with this with this guy who represented him um he did some decent deals for him but he he he completely mismanaged Greg’s tax affairs in Australia and if you’re an Australian playing in Asia and playing in Europe and with plans to go to America you really need some sophisticated um you know financial and tax advice and uh this guy sort of dropped the ball on that so our our moment of opportunity came and uh Greg at that point was just ready to come to America and um you know he’s such a people say to me all the time what is it that you’re looking for what is it you know what’s the what’s the secret sauce what’s the what’s a a superstar client all about and it’s like one of those things i can’t really define it but you know it when you see it in Greg’s case you know blonde blue-eyed you know broadshouldered commands the room great sense of humor loved the media and they loved him you know terrific talent jack Nicholas actually said now this is in the in the era of pimmen heads guys okay jack Nicholas said Greg Norman was the longest straightest driver of the golf ball he had ever seen
mhm high praise indeed
and of course Greg you know was off and running and uh brought his skill to America and immediately achieved success on the US tour and the big year of course was 86 when he had the the Saturday slam remember he led all four majors after 54 holes i’m not sure that’s been ever done by anyone it’s an interesting historical question um maybe way back somewhere but and he only converted one of those of course and people then you know he ended up winning only two majors um I I joke now that the live tour right that Greg fronted and promoted um LIIV is Roman numerals for 54 and I joke now that if majors had been 54 holes instead of 72 Greg would have seven instead of two
right that explains it
that explains it um to give not to like give him credit and everything but I will say this like every time you know he went into those major championships had a chance to win and didn’t get it done he always did face the media though and it seems like in today’s day and age where we see a lot of guys that are ducking the media not wanting to talk to him refusing to talk to him like I will give him credit for that because after every tough loss he was there and he answered every question
great point Cole and so true give the guy high marks for that he faced the music the most painful of which of course was Augusta which of all majors even though he won the the Open Championship twice he wanted to win more than any other and that thing with Faldo you know you blow a six-shot lead with 18 holes to go and how crushing and devastating that loss was he was right in there you know front and center in the press room and uh answering every question and and the mark of a great sportsman sorry you got to face the music when things don’t go your way and not just when you know you win the championship
yeah and his were some brutal losses he had some dudes do some stuff on the 72nd hole or leading up to it they were just you you just don’t see and it seemed to happen to him every single time but I’ll tell you Hughes something I found really interesting um in the book was uh when Norman proposed initially the World Golf Tour right not long after leaving IMG and it got shot down but which is now basically exactly what Liv is that idea initially came from Mark McCormack and Norman has played it off as his own correct
such a great point and and it’s one of the revelations in the book people go “Wow I knew McCormack was brilliant and visionary but this guy thought up the Live Tour.” And he did he wrote a book that I think is out of print now guys but Mark wrote a book called Arie Evolution of a Legend which is about all the all the years with Arnold uh he wrote it in 1966 or so so about the first seven or eight years that he represented him great stuff and one of the things in the book is Mark saying you know I had this idea and here it was because we were going to get about 25 of the top players and at that time the PGA of America was at war with the players and the players were unhappy with the way the PGA of America was running the tour this is pre Dean Beaman this is pre all the the way the tour operates today and so the guys were pretty receptive this concept and Mark went and sold it to the networks sold it to sponsors he had a 14 or 15 event um tour with bigger prize money with with with benefits like pensions and healthc care which in those days no pro players had and uh the whole thing was ready to roll the only uh the only quit pro was you had to have Jack Arnold and Gary other than that that the networks and sponsors didn’t care who was on the tour and Arnold shot it down as he did ironically as you saw in the book when Greg first proposed it in 1994 as his idea arnold stood up at that player meeting out in California and said to the to the assembled group of players that Greg was pitching his world tour to “Hey guys how many times do you think Jack and Gary and I were approached with stuff like this?” He said “We always turned it down.” Why because it would not be good for the fellas that’s how Arnold called the other guys on the tour the fellas and he said “You you guys,” he said “It’s past my time you guys do what you want but as far as I’m concerned I want no part of this.” And he stood up and walked out of the room and of course Greg was crushed and Arnold’s you know aura and and reputation was still such among the younger guys this is 1994 they all voted and shot it down
yeah and I mean now obviously come to present day couple years ago he gets the money from Saudi starts the live tour um you know it is what it is some people love it some people hate it not a lot of people watch it but one part in the book I want to go to because professional golf’s in a very interesting time right now where as this year you know since the book was written rate like ratings are up so far this year but as of last year they were down seemed like a lot of people were annoyed with the game but I want to go back to your book here it’s on page 97 where um it’s talking about Dean Beaman and talking about all the great work he did with the PGA tour as commissioner and back in 1979 the ratings fell 10% and they went out hired a consulting firm and basically in the book it says uh Dean Beam’s first move was to assign a consulting firm to gauge the public perception of professional golf and the results were eye opening the fan base was small with virtually no viewers under 18 most concerning was the revelation that pro golfers were perceived as selfish aloof and unappreciative of the big money they were making and the tour itself lacked a positive brand identity this was in 1979 does that sound familiar at all
i just going to say sound familiar it’s amazing my jaw dropped when I read that paragraph right there i was like “Oh my god.” Like this isn’t anything new what we’re dealing with the other that’s the that’s the other piece of the book that I think has made it popular and and and made a lot of people like it you know it’s kind of three parts it’s my story as an agent pretty cool story a lot of success ultimate failure um it’s McCormack which we talked about how this guy in Cleveland Ohio built the sports management business from nothing and there’s that long segment colt that you just referred to about Dean Bean and even rereading it today we wrote the damn thing and when I reread those pages about Bean my mouth still drops open this guy has sort of been forgotten he was an absolute genius every bit the extent that Mark was and what he did for golf you know all that stuff that you’re referring to right there in that segment of the book where he gets the tour out of New York and he gets the piece of property in Pontedra and he all the stuff with television really absolutely brilliant and if you follow golf you know if you’re if you’re a modern-day golf fan you should know that stuff you know and it’s great to bring it back to people’s attention right now
yeah and Circling you’re you’re exactly right it’s was funny reading that it’s like man that could have been written yesterday you know or last year and it would still be true history has a strange way of repeating itself but going back to Norman just cuz like Norman and Tiger Command such a big portion of your book the kind of parallels I found there like the endings with both of them the split was so abrupt can you talk about what led to the split with Norman and and if you had any idea that was coming
sure and they’re very different really in this sense greg was a client of mine and was with IMG for 11 years you know interestingly so so was Jack jack left in early 72 after 11 years with Mark greg was a client for 11 years and we talk a little bit in the book about how an agent’s kind of dream is to get a superstar but often and it takes time as in Greg’s case the superstar golfer decides you know what I’ve been around i know how all this business works i’ve sat in the meetings with Hughes i’ve read the contracts you know I can do this on my own and a lot of times as you know Colt the big guys have egos um they don’t get where they are without them and they start thinking that they’re as good in the business realm or could be as they are hitting a ball with a stick okay and that is a tragic mistake which Jack has has paid for dearly over the years not that aren’t that Mark was the only guy he could have stayed with but Jack’s been in some real dicey business situations um near bankruptcy a couple of times as I think you guys know but anyway um back to Greg and the difference with Tiger um so knowing that the superstar history you know Watson left us u to do that on his own johnny Miller left his guy Trevino left his original guy Sebie did it twice Rory’s done it twice so that’s kind of you know you’re playing with fire not all superstars are like Arnold and Gary and stay with IMG all their lives so sure enough after 11 years Greg decides he wants to do it on his own and sometimes it’s hey I look at the commissions I can I can save i can save 20% of millions and millions and millions of dollars more often it’s this ego i I want to have my own team you know I want to be the chairman of the board of Greg Norman Enterprises and and that sort of thing so that happened he uh he let me know and terminated us in Australia that that that part’s in the book as as much as that was a crushing um moment for me that I really didn’t see coming and that’s my bad that I didn’t I guess um that at least it was tolerable at least he was loyal for that whole period of time and appreciated the work we had done whereas with Tiger it was just complete 180 I mean it’s insanity um we say in the book no pro alete I still believe this has ever before he set foot on the field or hit a shot as a pro ever had the amount of guaranteed income um guaranteed uh that Tiger Woods
um and I’m that’s not all there is to representing a player but that’s what he and his family hired me to do and I really delivered in spades and for him 24 months in to fire me over the phone is just still inexplicable and I’ve never spoken to him since that moment and he’s never given me any response and sadly he does this with a lot of people in his life yeah i want obviously we’re gonna Yeah we’re going to get to Tiger because I mean he’s obviously the big story here but one last thing about Greg I just want to ask about because you obviously know him very well spent a lot of time with him are you surprised at all with what he’s doing now how he did finally get this backing from Saudi started this whole rival tour and you know he says to grow the game but in my opinion it’s hurt the game if anything yeah not surprising at all he he’s always had this this need to be visible to be relevant to be front and center to be at the head of the head of the line um and you know his playing career had come to an end and he’s floundering around doing different stuff you know he was financially set obviously but he was he was you know designing golf courses and you know his Reebok clothing brand kind of went in the tank which is sad because it was one of the great marks that we developed that Shark logo multiolor um and his other businesses some of his wine business I don’t think did that well but anyway um here along comes this opportunity and who better to brandish power and wield influence than Greg the Saudis could never have found a better guy who by the way was absolutely willing to take the slings and arrows and criticism you know some other some other players would not rory made a comment the other day he said he said “I’ll give I’ll give Norman this he’s probably the only guy that could have you know taken all the heat fronting the Saudi Arabian tour.” Um uh and I think I think he’s he’s very right so Greg’s personality was always intertwined with that and the Saudis found a perfect guy in my opinion
before we go to Tiger which I think we’ll get to after this just give me like because we’re talking about all this Greg Norman with Liv you know the idea initially came from Mark McCormack as you sit back and look at the state of golf currently what what’s the endgame where do you think this thing goes settlement somehow someway and I think we’re further apart than ever cole you’re with this and on top of it every day but I mean you’ve got the by the way it’s exactly two years uh anniversary since the you know they called off the litigation three days ago June 6th and everybody thought maybe that would that would mean something was going to get done and here we are 24 months later it seems like both sides are more entrenched you know the PGA tour has gotten the these guys Strategic Sports Group these team sport owners to put a billion five up um how they’re going to get that money back I don’t know and I’m you know I’m I’m sort of wondering what that’s all about frankly but the Liv Tour you know people say “God they’re losing they’ve spent $5 billion on this thing in three years how long can they keep this up?” And the fact of the matter is their private investment fund uh PIF which not only is in golf but it’s in tennis it’s in Premier League Soccer it’s in Formula 1 racing it’s in cricket it’s in every other sport is about 8 900 billion so let’s see if they spent five billion over three years how long can they keep this up well the answer to the question is probably a hundred years i don’t know which they won’t but I I for me as a fan apart from the business now okay for me the only real guys that I miss are Rahm Dshambo and sadly to a lesser extent Kepka i mean if you think Dustin Johnson’s kind of doesn’t seem like he cares much anymore Cam Smith’s gone totally in the tank which really surprises me because he’s so good and a lot of these guys have kind of their games have gone south playing on the live tour but those are the three guys if I’m the PGA Tour that I’m trying to figure out some way to get back now it’s been written about and I don’t know for sure maybe you know better than I that their contracts are up that you know Dshambo and Kepka’s contracts at least are up at the end of 2026 rahm’s deal was more recent so it goes longer he’s kind of stuck but if if I’m the PGA Tour and I can get those three guys back I mean do you really care about the others i’m not sure I do
yeah i’m I’m interested to see obviously what happens obviously in the business I’m in covering for CBS covering the PGA Tour like ratings are getting better now people are I think are finally past a lot of this and they’re like look I just want to watch golf um I agree having those three back would be big but like is it going to change the game like I said this to somebody the other day if you got Rahm and Brooks Kepka back is all of a sudden viewership going to go from two and a half million to three and a half million i don’t think so
i don’t I don’t think so either but I do I do think Dshambo moves the needle
he does for me now as a fan like only one other guy does and that’s Rory because they’re both appealing in in off of the golf course as well as on they’re both very thoughtful when they were interviewed they’re both fun to watch and those guys you know every sport you name it needs charismatic top players competing against each other more often than not and right now you know with the two tours it’s stab we’ve got you know this colt we’ve got four weeks a year the majors when they pretty much come together and you know God help the uh Valero Texas Opens
yeah you know I mean I I didn’t mention Bryson in that group when I said who it will affect the numbers because he will i mean there’s no doubt he what he’s done in major championships what he’s done in YouTube like it’s been great it’s been a total rebranding for him and he’s must see TV now so yeah take the PJ tour would do probably do a lot to get him back yep agreed and I think they could give a a a you know what about the rest of the guys and um the rest of the guys having made their money on live may not be all that you know crash hot to come back do you think Ian Polter wants to come back and grind on the American tour i I don’t think so so I think there’s a way to to you know make this work i do have uh reservations about this all this billion five that these supposedly sport you know smart team sport owners the Fenway group and the guy that owns the Falcons and the other people I don’t know what I mean what return are you going to get out of golf somebody pointed out that the the the real great thing that that pile of money could do PGA America would probably never say yes but what do you guys think about this they would you think about the PGA Tour right they don’t control anything in golf you have a body of rules making officials in New Jersey and Scotland that write the rules of the game you’ve got the Masters which runs itself the most important events are all under themselves the USGAA the the RNA the British Open the PGA of America the tour should take that money and they’d probably get a fast no but either buy the PGA Championship or the RDER Cup which is kind of the fifth major now right
or both i mean I don’t know what else this money can go to to get a return in golf you know the tour is up and running it’s successful what where does this go
yeah I I have no idea i mean those business guys have obviously been very successful i don’t see them just putting money in to put money in i think they definitely see a chance to return a profit that’s their goal and they’re going to do everything they can to do it i I have no idea way above my pay grade but I’m fascinated to see what happens some people have some people have suggested that those guys half the reason they agreed to put up this money is getting close to the Saudis and doing some business with them on all kinds of other ventures interesting take
yep that could be understandable i just feel like two years in we’re further than ever from a a deal we we never hear any information about it whatsoever and I don’t think anything happens until some of these contracts start to get close to running out and then I think you’ll start to see some scrambling cuz it’s like oh if we’re going to lose three of our biggest signes and they’re going to be done and they want to go back to the PJ tour and the PJ tour says you’re welcome it’s like where do we go from here how do we replace those guys
and guys I don’t have a single friend who’s a golf fan or a guy person I play golf with or hang out with not a single person ever says to me not once man live last week was that cool or h how about we Neman he’s going crazy on live nobody even knows they exist
yeah i mean that’s what you hear from a lot of people is how do you watch like I watch everything i definitely don’t enjoy it like I enjoy the PGA Tour um yeah I I totally understand why people don’t enjoy watching it but hey if if it’s your thing if you’re bringing in a younger audience whatever that that’s fine you can watch it all you want um it’s not for everyone though a quick break from our interview with Hughes Norton to bring you a note from Enterprise Mobility the road to opportunity is often the road overlooked that’s why Enterprise Mobility offers new roads to help drive your business forward with mobility solutions like fleet management flexible truck rental and an unmatched global network they can help your business find the right solutions their mobility experts can find smarter ways to scale your business so you’re not just growing bigger you’re getting better the more ways we all have to move forward the further we’ll all go find your road at enterprisemobility.com now back to our interview but let’s get let’s get to your biggest client of all time obviously Mr eldrich Tiger Woods who you met at a very young age um one thing I never knew was how you hired him as a scout over at IMG to help Earl
help afford Yeah how you hired Earl his father um to to help out with some travel situations he was scouting for you over there which apparently he wasn’t very good at being a scout but he did raise one hell of a son
it’s brilliant though
well I kided him afterwards you know he would write these long hand on yellow pads and send them to me in the mail it’d be five or six pages about the AJA event in Phoenix or wherever it was and every single person like for example he was great friends with the Keaney family so he knew Kelly he knew Trip he knew Hank so we’d write up these things and say “Kelly Keany man she can’t miss Trip Keany.” even better you got to sign him you know and I kided him years later i said “Earl you know you were maybe the worst scout I’ve ever seen for talent you loved everybody.” And he laughed he thought that was the funniest thing ever but that was a that was a brilliant idea you know whether that enabled us or me to sign Tiger it certainly was a helpful factor because Earl retired from the military was spending a lot of money um which he didn’t have a lot of traveling around the country with Tiger going to every single junior event two airfares hotel room food you know 20 25 times a year so I had this brainstorm one day driving back from from work I thought what if we hired Earl as our junior talent scout cuz we were doing a lousy job even then scouting college kids we we had nobody looking at the kids you know the AJA age so I immediately dismissed it saying that’ll never fly the NCAA or USGA will never buy that but I ran it by McCormack and he one of his many great things McCormack tough guy to work for for sure in many ways which we talk about in the book but he was always receptive to to new ideas and even if they sounded crazy so he said “Wow that’s pretty cool let me run that by Sandy Tatum who then was the head of the USGAA and was a friend of Markx.” So I again thought I had no chance because of the commercial aspects which the USGAA hates but Sandy being a lawyer came back and said “Okay here’s the deal as long as there’s no quid proquo mark between you and the Woods family meaning we’re hiring you as our junior talent scout but wink wink nod nod when you when you know whether it’s in writing or not you agree to let IMG represent you when your son turns pro that was he says as long as there’s nothing of that ilk he said yeah you can hire him so we did and he worked for us for two and a half years and then when Tiger went to Stanford we was we knew we were going to run into NCAA stuff so we stopped it but it was very meaningful to Earl and he really appreciated it and you know we paid him not that much money it was then but we paid all the expenses plus I think we paid him 25 or maybe even more thousand a year and it really made the difference um for his financial well-being um again I think my relationship was strong enough through other things that we did together over those years when he was in Amter that would it have made was that the determining factor no but that was um that was one of my brilliant ideas that that worked um I had a bunch of other ideas didn’t work out so well kind of worked out well for a while this one we didn’t have anybody that was out on the amateur tour recruiting and trying to sign um you know college and and amateur players and at that stage Vinnie Giles had come along and had set up a practice representing golfers and he was signing them all because he got to know them at tournaments and became their friend and they had you know trust in him and so on and so forth before we could get to him so I called I looked around the landscape and I I saw this this young good-looking guy had just from the University of Florida he had just surprisingly won the US amateur Fred Ridley and I called him and said “Fred you probably never thought about this but when you get through with law school next year would you consider working in sports management?” And one of the things we’d like you to do you can learn about all the legal side of our sports management operation and you can play amateur golf and and kind of recruit and get to know these young guys like at that time Curtis Strange etc and Fred was overwhelmed thought about it a while came back said that is really cool big mistake I made Colton and Drew never start a young IMG employee especially one from the South in Cleveland Ohio in February yeah it’s a tough cell that’s a tough cell
and Fred and Betsy Fred and Betsy were were from Florida and after two or three years he he just felt he wanted to go do something else but I mean look at what he’s done in his career usga president chairman of Augusta National and I like to I kid him all the time i say “Fred never would have happened without that agent that that sleazy agent training you got.” He just kind of turns the other way and says “You had to bring that up.” Right that’s beautiful yeah it’s done it’s worked out all right for him
yeah i mean between Fred Ridley Colin Montgomery almost being an agent Jack Ellen Insurance like the whole landscape of golf has changed under the watch of IMG and the goings on there answer me this since you brought up Earl Hyen as a recruiter or as a as a consultant which was genius
but the first time you went to Cypress California to meet Tiger Woods it was he was 13 years old as a grown man who’s represented a bunch of world number ones and things like that what’s it like flying across the country to go see a 13-year-old who you think’s going to be great but by the way there’s no guarantees that he’s going to turn out
and I had never ever talked to a family or a kid that young before and all my colleagues in the golf uh department at IMG were giving me a hard time saying “Oh you know you going to are we tennis now or because tennis players turn pro and 14 sometimes.”
And uh I said “Listen I’m out in LA i can you always do your homework you know a lot of it stuff that I would research or or sort of you know get ready for a future recruiting thing don’t work out and a lot of kids that can’t miss do miss as you well know Cole and and in this sport
but there I was and uh interestingly that chapter it’s called Finding Tiger um was the one when you write a book I never knew this before uh publisher or your agent has to have three things one is an introduction one or two pages what’s this book going to be about two an outline like is it going to be eight chapters 10 they’re not going to hold you to it but just roughly and the most important thing is a sample chapter simon and Schustster and all the other publishers we approached want to see you can’t blame them what’s the writing going to look like what’s it so that was the chapter that you’re referring to it’s chapter 7 um and a lot of people have enjoyed that chapter when I walked up to the front door of a 13-year-old’s house and said “Here I am buddy.”
Um go
win a bunch of majors for me please
unbelievable obviously and everything led to you signing Tiger Woods when he turned pro when he decided to leave Stanford and obviously like you said the money that he got guaranteed up front was just absolutely ridiculous but I want to know I believe he was 20 years old at the time you take him a Nike contract that you settled on 5 years $40 million you’re and it’s all guaranteed $8 million a year what was the reaction from Tiger Woods when you first presented him that contract complete indifference
wow really
it was I sat in the hotel suite it was the night before he went out to play his first first round as a pro the proam at Milwaukee 1996 and and we talk about it in the book i had three contracts i had a $40 million fully guaranteed deal from from uh Nike a $20 million fully guaranteed deal from Titalist and um the IMG representation contract and we describe all of those in detail in the in the book but we sat there at this little table and we moved the McDonald’s bags and burgers aside that was the the diet of Earl and Tiger without fail every night they didn’t want to get any grease on these nice contracts so we shoved them aside and we went through them page by page and really uh I said indifference it’s kind of boredom as we go through like not so much Earl but Tiger kind of yawning and wondering when Sports Center is going to come on and you know he’s 20 years old he had no frame of reference whatsoever for this and I kept trying to to put it in perspective I would say Tiger just so you know this $8 million a year for shoes and clothes from Nike is four to five times what the number one guys in the world right now in your sport are making Nick Faldo and Greg Norman how do I know that because they both were clients of IMG
and it was like finally signed them out and I said “Well what do you think?” He said “Not bad huh?”
Then he got out there and
40 million
went and watched TV
that’s
Yeah no but he had he had no and you know no and we talk about this later in the book and and this sounds crazy guys but I use the word um all the outside income and on top of those two contracts before I left we did American Express for 25 million over 5 years we did a huge Rolex deal we did the only deal that he actually had interest in because it was video games which was Electronic Arts it’s the only one that he didn’t get mad and and and [ __ ] and moan about how all all the days he had to do and the photo sessions that he had to show up for and stuff but so it was about $120 million in the first 24 months banked
that’s W and you had all those performance incentives in there where like if you do this you get this much more than this and like that was huge too
oh I’m glad you noticed that because that was just amazing they were bonuses that never in any golf contract I had ever seen were in there and uh you know you shoot for the moon and sometimes you get it with Nike but basically Tiger’s view of all this wealth and outside income guaranteeing generational wealth you know his kids his grandkids his you know on and on and on was an intrusion in his life and contrast that with Greg who loved the wealth and the fame and the fortune and the Ferraris in the garage and the helicopter and the ocean going yacht and all that sort of stuff and Tiger it was really an intrusion in the way of him becoming the greatest golfer of all time it was so diametrically opposed and people ask me all the time what were the differences between Tiger Gray totally totally different tiger did not like the media from day one you saw a couple instances in the early days when he kind of got burned by the media and he’s been kind of a lousy interview ever since um Greg loved the press and the press loved him he just it it was crazy so when as a result for Tiger to to jettison me and I stood for all this outside stuff that was intruding on his what he really wanted to do which was go play and practice and go to the gym was an easier you know firing I’m pretty sure than for a normal golfer who at least would have a sense of appreciation tiger never could learn or didn’t learn ever uh growing up I guess um you know to to be appreciative for pretty much anything
for you as an agent when you first started this and I mean you signed so many great players could you ever imagine though having deals at those numbers as what you had for Tiger Woods i could not call and it’s kind of been lost here 25 or more years later people say you know 8 million a year that’s no big deal believe me that was so off the charts in those days i referenced it four or five times what Norman and Fo were making they were the the you know the longtime stars of the game at that stage i mean it was just astronomical and the whole chapter on Nike and how that came about is pretty interesting in terms of how an agent looks at things and sometimes you roll the dice and a lot of times it doesn’t work but it was so cool the way that all came together and the homework that I did and whatever whatever the opportunity that came about um and and to do to do those things really you’re on top of the mountain when you’re an agent i mean to have somebody at that much in demand and be able to basically say to American Express you know this is it’s 5 million a year and quite frankly guys it’s okay if you don’t you know you know he he’s going to be fine without it it’s completely the opposite of what you normally beg for
no doubt if I asked you this you could have one mulligan with Tiger Woods what would it be i think that I should have more emphasized I’m not I don’t think I’ve thought about it a million times i don’t think it would have made much difference but emphasized more that I I totally understood his real goal in life and I was never going to let the commercial stuff get in the way of that i limited as a result his his commercial you know days his photo sessions his sales appearances the stuff he had to do for all these millions really was so restricted i compared it to some of the contracts that Arnold Palmer at at that stage still had and and it was Target was was doing half the number of days i mean I really felt I did a good job in that respect but I didn’t communicate that enough to him or or tell him you know strongly enough that at whatever point this became too overwhelming um you know we could we could cut it back really the thing that happened I think Colt his you know he wins the Masters in 97 then he totally wants to revamp his swing which is is he and I were watching the tapes of the of the 97 Masters and he’d say God look at that what a terrible swing and I can’t believe I hit that shot and I kind of waited a minute and finally I said Tiger you won by 12 shots i mean it’s not not like he all this is so bad and he was adamant so I got to change my swing and that of course led to me putting in with Butch Harmon down the road but in any event um I think what really was a factor was from 97 when he decided to change his swing he didn’t play well the rest of 97 and 98 he was adjusting and getting used to it and maybe he blamed me for that he never verbalized it maybe he said “God my game’s nowhere near what it was at Augusta.” And uh you know it’s got to be the outside stuff it’s all this [ __ ] that I I shouldn’t be doing
and it it led it led to a quote real quick that’s struggling it led to a quote by Greg Norman
later that year by the way that said quote “He got off to a phenomenal fast start but he’s come back to reality and he’s just another golfer out there.” Yeah it was a good one
just another dude he’s regular
words Words you would like to delete from the record right yeah he probably got a few of them hugh I got a question going back to the Nike deal cuz I found this contrast really interesting one the abrupt ending with Tiger which you talk about no explanation over the phone very impersonal just like boom we’re done but on the flip side of that when you were doing his Nike deal Nike actually directly reached out to Earl at the 11th hour was like “Hey why don’t we just wipe out Hughes eliminate him from this and you guys don’t have to pay all the commission.” and Hugh and Earl turned him down which seemed like a very a really admirable thing at the time that’s a weird contrast
it was the cheap shot of all cheap shots i’ve never been in a situation like that and I remember I’d been with the family for 10 years it was clear to Nike that their trust was in me and vice versa and that there was going to be a relationship there once he turned pro all the trips to Nike I did I went there four or five times just doing my homework getting to know the the landscape of the company what I thought was possible steve Miller was the director of sports marketing uh great guy helped me a lot spending a lot of time on this and couple meetings with Phil Knight himself so lo and behold I get this phone call uh we’re on we’re at the 11th hour all the terms have been negotiated it’s about a month before Tiger turns pro we haven’t signed the contract yet cuz we can’t he’s still an amateur and I get this call from Earl and he says “Huge,” you’d never believe who um who came to see me today i said ‘Really who he said “This really nice well-dressed African-American executive from Nike.” And I I didn’t think anything of it i said “Really what did he have to say?” Well Earl said he said that there was no reason for us to deal with you and this message that he brought he said was directly from Phil Knight um just do the deal with us and save the 20% now you can imagine at the other end of the phone what I’m thinking it’s like I gulp and wait a beat and say “Um so what did you tell him Earl?” And I’ll never forget you know such a it was such a for all the times in this business that bad stuff happens Earl says he said “I told him no.” I said “Go back and tell Phil Knight that you have to trust somebody in this world and Hughes is the guy we trust.”
Man well that had to make you feel
and that was exhilarating at the time you know because it made all the years of you know he’s 12 years old when I first see him and all the years waiting for this kid to turn pro what’s going to happen so that was great in fairness Earl was really always more on my side even at the end I think guys than Tiger um I know for a fact Earl tried to talk Tiger out of the decision to fire me
and said stuff to him like you know he’s look the relationship’s been so long and he was has done so much for us you can’t do that
but I think what happened is Tiger had we had moved him to Florida to save tax get out of California and he was on his own all the way across the country for the first time and this was a decision that I I don’t know for sure but my guess is that Earl and Teta said to themselves even if this is the wrong thing for Tiger to do um we got to let him you know he’s he’s a grown man now he’s out of this out of our sphere of influence he’s on his own we got to we got to support him no matter how wrong we think this decision is and uh like I say I don’t know that for a fact but I think that was certainly an element now it’s quite easy to make that decision when you got 120 million back right guys so well no I I don’t know but
don’t take your word for it feels easy
but I mean it’s just your career has been unbelievable how long it was the things you’ve accomplished i mean obviously representing six number one players in the world is just is phenomenal and I know the Tiger thing hurt which it which it should i mean that’s very difficult when you do so much for someone and then you get a phone call and there’s no changing his mind but looking back now like are you over it now i know it took a while to get I mean I’m not sure it hurt for a while but ne present day are you over it
you know what helped more than anything in a way that I never thought was writing this book
it was it was cathartic it really was to get all of this out after all these years remember I hadn’t shared any of this with the media i’d turned down all the people that had tried to talk to me about what happened over the years and I just it had been simmering for me and sort of you know I yeah I’d sort of gone past that as best you can but there was always something there and there still is I mean let’s face it but you know you you you you get it out you express it you you feel lighter sort of you know and and it’s it’s regrets are terrible that’s one of the things I point out in the book you know regrets will kill you so you still have regrets like your question what would you have done differently with Tiger but you can’t change Um and I I just I feel better about it now telling the story and I didn’t write the book guys to to settle scores okay i really did it because I thought these different parts of the story that we talked about my story McCormack how Bean changed the tour were all pretty interesting things and I as I say in the forward I really wrote it for my for my kids so they’d re you know know the inside and outside of what their dad did but uh I’m glad I did it uh I’m just thrilled it’s been so wellreceived and so many people have enjoyed it it really is i I I never did it for that purpose or for commercial success but I had such a great collaborator and uh if if you guys thought it was a good read and I hear that from you uh George Pepper is a big part of it and he gets uh he gets a lot of credit
we’re we’re glad you wrote it because there’s some cool stuff in there i I ask you one thing just cuz you say it in the book you mentioned it earlier like you haven’t talked to Tiger since that day since you guys split up if you did have a chance to sit down and close your room 10 minutes is there something you’d want to say to him or ask him
yeah I I would just say Tiger you know you never gave me an explanation you said you didn’t want to talk about it i flew down to see you you told me not to come we stood there and I said “Let’s talk about this.” And you said “I have nothing to say i’m making a change it’s over.” Turned around on your heel and walked away i said that really isn’t a great way to treat anybody um particularly somebody that’s been fairly meaningful in your life would you please tell me the reasons you know was it Mark Omera who was an influential uh guy in the early days and uh who may or may not have have have have urged you to make a change what was it what did I do wrong i said give me some closure here you know I’m a human being interestingly guys I don’t know if you ever heard this from Steve Williams who’s just come out with a new book i haven’t seen it um about his years with Tiger but Steve Williams and and it wasn’t just me the only solace I can take I guess is that I wasn’t the only person kind of mistreated by Tiger when he turned when he terminated you but Steve Williams had a great quote you know Steve was in Tiger’s wedding they 12 majors he was on the bag right and Steve Williams said “You know I can understand being fired as a caddy that’s what happens out here all the time the one thing I could never understand with Tiger was why he fired me as a friend that’s the way he is
yeah that’s tough there
yeah i think there’s a number of guys that are in the same boat with that that just feel like communication’s been cut off
a bunch of his coaches you know co a bunch of his coaches he hasn’t ever I don’t think he’s spoken to Hank Haney at all hank took him through what five or six majors i mean crazy crazy stuff um yeah it’s it’s been a wild ride but like I said we can’t thank you enough for writing this book Rain Maker if you want to go check it out it is a fantastic read you got SE and I to finish the whole thing which is really impressive before we let you go
just we normally do an Emergency 9 but we don’t have enough time left just a couple of little quick fun ones
real quick for you here um I would love to know
the weirdest or wildest company that approached you about representing Tiger or one of your clients it’s This one’s in the book it’s the craziest negotiation ever and it really wasn’t much of one there’s a package goods company called Unilver i think you’ve heard the name they’re like Proctor and Gamble they own Brier’s ice cream they own Vaseline J all kinds of different consumer products so in right after the Masters um they got in touch with me and said “Boy we’d love to do something with Target what product categories can we do?” And we talked about different things we thought about the ice cream thing cuz she loves ice cream like any 20-year-old and they they kept coming back and we haven’t really made up our mind but we don’t you know what should we do and finally sort of in desperation almost to not have to talk to him anymore cuz I didn’t think it was going anywhere i said okay here’s the deal um until you guys make up your mind which of your products you’d like Tiger to endorse if any why don’t you pay him to exclusively be yours in all of your product categories for the next 9 months which was the end of 1997 I guess and they said “Oh yeah that’d be great how much?” Of course that was I hadn’t given it any thought so fresh off the American Express and some of these other deals I said 2.3 million for nine months sold a hell of a deal unilver to to the best of my knowledge guys became the only company in the history of professional athletes to pay a guy huge amount of money not to endorse their competitor’s products
not to endorse their own not to do somebody else’s crazy
if anyone out there is looking for sleeves on how to do that we’re available
shoes I was going to say if you got another one of these deals laying around bud we’ll get you 25% commission So just shop that shop that uh I’ll give you one huge give me first name that comes to mind here okay either a guy you courted really hard and was was unable to land or a guy that you didn’t court very hard and just missed on but who’s your biggest miss john Dy’s right up there
um I had in the book it’s funny I’d gone out to see him i was I grew up in Portland Maine i was back there to play a member guest or something in the summer lo and behold the it wasn’t even the Nike tour then whatever it was was in Portland Maine and I knew this guy this bomber was out there and I went out to see him i showed up on Saturday went to the range he wasn’t there and I knew what time he was teeing off and went there not there so just didn’t show up didn’t think anything of it went on to do whatever I was doing that weekend the next morning’s Portland Press Herald there’s an article buried in the sports section nike tour golfer John Dailyaly uh booked for Drunk and Disorderly uh drops out of event
doesn’t sound like him
sure enough Daly down at the bar in Portland got into a fight or something was in jail and couldn’t and and didn’t play so that was my thing with John Dailyaly and of course I immediately dismissed him as you know that what a waste of time to even talk about this guy and I learned my I learned my lesson the hard way when he was You know the story was eighth alternate at the PGA got the word Wednesday afternoon drove in his car in that incredible thing with Nick Price’s caddy nick Price’s wife was giving birth he was the eighth guy to drop out squeaky his caddy remember him was sitting there and at at Crooked Stick and uh teamed up with Daily and off they go
just dominating and full effect beautiful beautiful thing
all right last one for me have you ever brought a deal to a client and the client said “No Hughes that’s too much money.” Yep the one and only Jim Nance and and Cole
the only person that would say that by the way you
Yep he’s so amazing this was the titleless thing where Wally Uhine is longtime CEO of a Kushnet and did so many amazing things to build that company and and and and and major figure in golf he and I were really good friends for whatever reason i I didn’t have a lot of people in the business that I negotiated on the other side of the table from that I was good friends with george Pepper interestingly enough was one um and Wall-E was another one so Wall-Ally and I brainstorming one day were talking about titleless commercials and I thought to myself the Titleist brand and Jim Nance’s brand you know the voice of sports broadcasting what a great marriage well he said “Great.” Um we put together a deal where Jim did a couple of voiceover sessions a year and you know how good he is at those and how little time that would take somebody like Jim plus um an occasional sales appearance he’d show up at the at the title of sales meeting once in a while we put this together and I called Jim I’ll never forget and we talk about this in the book and I said “Jim how would you like to be the voice of Titus?” And he said “What?” I said your voice over for all their commercials going forward TV radio everything he said “Oh my god.” He interrupted me actually and said “Well who wouldn’t want to do that?” He said “How much is the deal?” And I said “This is 1998 $250,000 a year.” Silence i can’t do that hughes excuse me that’s too much money it’s not fair direct quote yep two months
and the the the the happy part of the story is and this is why you know people say “What’s the best deal you’ve ever done?” Honestly that one to me is is still great because of the two people involved that I thought so much of and 27 years later it’s still going strong jim Nance the voice of Titus
wow too much money i always thought Jimmy was a smart dude but you know can be deceiving
i will have to say he’s the reason this is happening right now the great gymnast introduced me to Hughes and uh he did tell me “Please send huge my best.”
Yeah Huge that’s a good name
yeah Huge that was what everybody you know all my all my enemies or people who didn’t think that much of me over the years say “Oh no wonder he’s called huge you know he’s got a huge ego and this and that.” It actually was Sevy in his spang leash whenever he saw me we got to be friends i actually tried to do some work for him once whenever he saw me he wasn’t wasn’t Hughes hello Huge hey Huge how you doing huge
so good i heard I love that
so all the guys and the all the guys at IMG picked it up and pretty soon it was all over the tour
that’s fantastic all right last one for me hugh this is going to be a super quick one but I want to know after you used it for his 21st birthday in Vegas do you think Tiger ever used the alias Heywood Jablomi when trying to stay off the grid i can’t claim ownership of that one of his pals I want to say it maybe came from uh from Not the Gay who was his teammate and great friend at Stanford but that was the thing that they would that was one of their hooks that they hey would you bloom so we did that deal in the we did we we we set it up where Tiger was coming down we all assembled in the lobby of a hotel and as soon as he got off the elevator we had the the PA and you know the the announcement from the front desk said Mr mr jablomi Mr haywood Jablomi please report to the front desk it’s still funny
it is still funny all these guys from Stanford and and and even we’re on the floor and Tiger’s like “What did you just do?” That’s fantastic yep it’ll never not be funny
yeah exactly dude we’re guys this is We laugh at this [ __ ] all the time well Hughes man it’s been so much fun catching up with you this has been awesome to sit down talk about your book Rain Maker and just your incredible career you should be very proud man it’s It’s really cool your story is fascinating thank you Cole thank you Drew the audio version’s out there i had a blast doing that i did little DJ stuff in high school and college so I was kind of going back in the studio back when what you guys are doing and uh amazing story on that we did it’s it ended up being 9 hours and and 20 minutes the audio book now remember this is a 230 page book god help you if you’re ever recording you know Harry Potter i don’t know how long that would take
wish I’d known about
It took us 20 hours 20 hours and it was just so fun to do that and uh people have enjoyed listening to that too so that’s awesome man well we appreciate you hey right back at you you guys have a great podcast and uh can’t wait to hear this from
Thank you Hughes
that was super agent Hughes Norton joining us on Golf Saparis see you called him Huge Huge Norton
which I worse nicknames than that tell you that
but man that was awesome sitting down with him hearing how you know he broke into the industry how he pretty much helped change the game him and Mark McCormack representing Greg Norman Tiger Woods among a few other i thought it was fascinating to hear how Mark McCormack came up with the whole big money world tour many many moons ago when somebody else acts like you know they kind of came up with it yeah that I thought that part was extremely fascinating i mean he Hughes and IMG at the time like legitimately revolutionized like sports agencies like the one-stop shop where they handle your fine and they do everything for you he was on the front end of that handled the biggest guys in the world i thought what was interesting too a contacting Tiger Woods at age 13 like we’re going to get in front of this one i mean dude how many good juniors have you seen we played with them that like looked like a can’t miss kid and then never panned out tiger worked out also putting Earl on the payroll that’s the big one
smart i mean every college in the world I think has adapted that strategy now trying to get relatives in there working for him and then also I found this pretty cool the the Nike deal that was I mean unparalleled at the time going to be the biggest one ever for a golfer and then at the 11th hour Nike trying to kneecap come in and cut him out of the deal and Earl saying “Nah.”
Yeah no how about 5 years
and that would save them millions like he could have easily been like “Okay.” But
how about 5 years 40 million in 1996 and Tiger says “Yeah not bad.” Didn’t seem to care at all
didn’t seem to care
we’re around nike is looking for some more
tell you what you can buy a lot of Birdie Juice merch with 40 million all right and if you’re looking to level up your golf gear custom is the way to go i just grabbed a few Birdie Juice TE’s super easy process and they turned out great you can do the same pick your favorite logo and customize polos hats hoodies and more all from the top golf brands make it personal and make it quick head to shop.golf.com and gear up with something you’ll actually wear like that hoodie you’re rocking right now you look nice
super nice don’t I fits very appropriately lightweight comfortable everything
all right well as we wrap up here once again huge congratulations to JJ Spawn winner of the 125th US Open pump for a man that that was a game changer can’t wait to get him here in studio with the trophy spoke to him today i know he’s got a lot of stuff going on he said “As soon as I get back we’re going to do it.” So he’ll be back in here also not just to win it but like to win it with that putt like that’s going to be on every montage every clip going forward when you think of like big moments at the US Open and lastly thing we didn’t we didn’t speak about earlier i want to shout out to Adam Scott we get a lot of attention with guys they take tough losses people not talking to the media all that sort of stuff adam Scott who was in the mix the entire day final group probably gutted who knows how many chances he’ll get at major championships going forward in there congratulate him genuinely happy for him reliving the last putt the camera on Bobby Mack too when that went in i mean he’s three putt away from being going and warming up again
well he was gonna be in a playoff Monday morning yeah with a three putt but Bobby Mack I think just gained so many fans without having to say a word out loud camera was on him there he is clapping and just goes “Wow.”
And I And everybody’s like “That is a class act right there.” Really cool to see him win that way bobby Mack played awesome he’s going to be up there at Beth Page representing Europe really cool about those guys i thought he was going to get
very impressed with him also cool Tier giving a T interview by the way that was like the full spectrum of Tier it was like a thoughtful answer then a question he didn’t like and he’s like “What kind of question is that?” Then the puck goes in and he’s smiling and happy again but that was cool too i thought all those guys
handled tough losses well which we haven’t seen you know is not always guaranteed
all right well what an episode man that was a fun one but before we get out of here Ciss
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On this week’s episode of GOLF’s Subpar, Colt Knost and Drew Stoltz are joined by golf Superagent Hughes Norton for an exclusive interview. The former agent to both Tiger Woods and Greg Norman talks the biggest differences between the two stars, how Tiger reacted to his initial Nike deal and who originally pitched the idea for what would eventually become LIV Golf.
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14 Comments
Colt mentioned that players were hoping not to two chip out of the rough. Even though he was talking about leaving it in the rough, and even though hitting the ball twice on the same swing is no longer a penalty, the comment reminded me of an observation I made last year. Re-watching the British Open (The Open) when John Daly won against Constantino Rocca in a playoff after Rocca flubbed a chip, then walked in about a 60 foot putt like it had eyes, it sure seems to be that on the Rocca chip that went just a few feet, that he hit the ball twice, and that was one hundred percent a penalty. He absolutely had to know that, but he proceeded on.
He could have easily won the playoff, and he would have had to live with himself. I have never heard anyone ever mention it. Gotta think that had he won, someone other than myself would have seen it. Any of you want to take a look at that chip and chime in? You can clearly see the ball change directions right before leaving the club well after the initial contact.
JJ Spaun has a great move through the ball. Brilliant swing. Sure, Ludvig Aberg has an effortless swing, but it is a little fast and more can go wrong due to timing. JJ's swing and balance is at the very top of the game.
Great interview – got some guests I recommend. Kyle Quilausing and Andrew Magee
Well, did Jim Nantz take the 250K from Titleist, or did he take less? My guess is that he ended up taking the 250K. Also, Tiger's Dad sticking up for Hughes on the Nike deal was huge. Imagine is Earl listens to Nike. Hughes would have been fired that week.
I remember Jack Nicklaus saying that Charles Howell was the next big thing….almost a lock, when Charles first came on tour. Wrong again, Jack. Tiger was legitimately can't miss….but maybe that is hindsight. Curtis Strange said…."you'll learn", and then you guys said that Greg said….he's just another golfer. So, maybe nobody knows anything.
Great interview.
Loved the watery ending to The Open.
Great comment on SSG. How do they get a return on their 1.5 billion investment??
And pure class that Bones grabbed the 18th flag for JJs caddie (Carens)…
As far as the burns ruling goes… it seems the rules and officials focus is too much on water around your feet and maybe should be more about the water where the ball is sitting
Tiger is at 54:24 FYI
This podcast was undoubtedly, one of the best ones that you have done. Thanks for sharing it to the world. Now we know the rest of the story.
I worked under Hughes in the golf division at IMG for many years. This brings back so many great memories. Great book, great interview.
Don't forget how lucky Bryson was last years Open. He was SO lucky when he missed a few fairways
Take a shot every time he says, "In the book." We get it. You wrote a book.