Cycling’s Dark Era Is Back. Is It Broken for Good?

Is cycling heading back into dangerous territory? In this episode, we sit down with Aron D’Souza, the man behind the controversial Enhanced Games — an unregulated sporting event with no drug testing and no limits.

D’Souza wants to scrap anti-doping rules entirely, arguing that the future of sport lies in full-blown enhancement. For cyclists who lived through the sport’s darkest chapters, this hits a nerve. Is this brutal honesty… or the beginning of another downward spiral? We dive into what the Enhanced Games means for cycling, the ethics of performance at any cost, and whether sport can survive when the rulebook gets ripped up.

If you enjoyed this you will love this next video – “The Dark Secret Of Masters Racing” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UbiLhMhuLQ

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Chapters –

0:00 Intro
0:38 Doping Free For All & The Morality Of It
7:31 ”Upgrading Mankind” / Lance Armstrong
16:44 Should Clean Sports Be Protected As Morality Lessons For Kids
19:40 Performance Enhancing Drugs To Overcome Genetic Disadvantages
24:43 “44% Of Elite Athletes Are On PEDs”
26:15 What Medical Support Do The “Enhanced” Athletes Get?
32:22 What Kind Of Athlete Is Drawn To The Enhanced Games?
39:10 Ozempic And It’s Effect On HUman “2.0”

imagine a world where athletes don’t hide 
their drug use They celebrate it Where   performance-enhancing drugs aren’t banned 
they’re the point Today we’re going to sit   down with the man trying to make that vision 
a reality Aaron Dza president of the Enhanced   Games a sporting organization where there’s 
no drug testing and no limits Is this the   future of sport or a dystopian nightmare 
or the most brutally honest competition   the world has ever seen Get ready This is a 
conversation you do not want to miss It’s Aaron Dza Dr Dza welcome to the Roadman podcast Thanks 
for having me on the show I’m really excited for   this conversation Uh let’s start by giving me a 
little bit of context to the Genesis moment When   was the seed first planted for the enhanced games 
in your mind Well it really grew over nearly 20   years So when I was an undergraduate at Oxford 
University I wrote a paper by Professor Julian   Savescu a prominent bioethsist who argued for 
the inclusion of performance-enhancing drugs at   the Olympic Games I didn’t really rate that very 
highly at the time Uh but then uh in in Christmas   2023 I was in a gym in Miami and I overheard some 
like bodybuilder types talking about whether they   were natural or enhanced or natty or not And I 
thought this was a very very I had never heard   this term and I think I probably looked it up 
on Urban Dictionary natty Um and then you know   obviously my algorithms bombarded me on Instagram 
and Tik Tok and I saw more and more influencers   being very open and honest about being enhanced 
Um and then I thought I think there’s something   really in this Uh and at the same time you know 
many of my friends who are multi-billionaires   um take performance enhancements OMIC was rising 
and I thought there’s something really in this And   so Christmas 2023 uh I said I’m going to do what 
I do on my favorite kind of holiday which is I   rent a beautiful house on the beach and I take 
my laptop and I write the business plan for a   new company or new philanthropic initiative that I 
want to pursue and that year I did uh the enhanced   games It’s interesting because it’s taken one 
of sport’s longest held taboos and it’s kind of   turned it on its head and I’m excited to dive into 
that Maybe before we do just to ground a couple of   terms How do you define fairness in sport That’s 
a great question Fairness is following a defined   rule set Yeah I think I think as simple as that 
I’m a lawyer right Uh by training and um you know   uh what is legal right What is legal and what 
is just are two very different concepts One is   a concept in law and one is a concept in morality 
and in philosophy And so I would say fairness in   sport is abiding by the rule set um set by uh 
the governing body Right If you’re going to   participate in a sporting competition uh you are 
agreeing to abide by the rule set by the governing   body Um there there’s an interesting area of 
law which I’m sure you’re familiar but possibly   uh listeners aren’t It arose post world war when 
they tried German senior command and they said to   them like you’re you know you’re charged with 
mass killing of thousands of Jewish people How   do you respond to this And the response was 
well I followed the law So from that arose   a precedent that some things are so obvious that 
they should be above the law There’s a hierarchy   in law where God made law stands above legislative 
law Could you straw man the argument that even if   performance-enhancing drugs are allowed in sport 
it’s so obvious that they shouldn’t be So that’s   actually a really interesting uh analogy that you 
use because I in fact wrote my PhD thesis on John   Lo and the concept of natural law applying it 
in fact to the case of intellectual property law   not to the question of sport Uh so yes so there is 
this question of like are there principles um that   are universal in god-given law that are immutable 
and I would say in sport uh this abstraction is   is not correct because if we were having this 
conversation 50 years ago it would have been   about amateurism in sport and so from 1896 until 
1992 the core touchstone of sport was that um   being paid was ungentlemanly it was immoral it was 
somehow polluting the integrity of sport And the   idea of the spirit of sport which is I think the 
natural law touchstone which you’re drawing upon   actually um relates to that concept of amateurism 
And now today amateurism doesn’t even exist right   It’s been completely eliminated from from the 
lexicon Um and I think the same is going to   be true of of of this notion of enhancement So we 
will get into stuff that’s more user friendly for   listeners but since we’re on the the legal debate 
how do you how do you think about consent in this   Because like is incent fully like so my masters 
is on the world anti-doping code and its conflict   with natural law rights and one of the criticisms 
of the world anti-doping code is if you’re asking   certain ethnicities to uh to comply with world 
anti-doping code measures it’s potentially   in violation of maybe their religious beliefs 
around bodily integrity or their constitutional   uh beliefs to bodily integrity So yes they have 
to consent because they can’t participate in the   sport without that consent But is it really a 
full free and informed consent and I’d extend   that argument to this is it really a full free 
and informed consent if you can’t participate   without taking enhancement So um I don’t believe 
that free consent can be procured in a monopoly   situation Right So the problem about the world 
anti-doping code today is that um effectively you   cannot participate in elite sport without being in 
the water IOC system Yeah Right Um and so from a   moral perspective uh I think choice maximization 
is a good thing uh and I think that’s a and I   think we can take that as an axiomatic principle 
that to have two choices it’s better to have only   one choice and so I believe giving athletes the 
choice to participate in an enhanced system on   one side and a natural system on the other is more 
morally justifiable than uh a monopoly exercise of   power You’re challenging an entire value system 
here What’s the what’s the big vision Is it about   athletic performance Is it about scientific 
freedom Is it a political resistance Is it a   little bit of everything It’s fundamentally about 
upgrading mankind Uh how can we um accelerate   human progress So the core ethos of the Olympic 
world is to remind uh humanity about its past   ancient Greek virtues the Corinthian ethics Um 
that is the central uh modus operandi of the   International Olympic Committee We are actually 
the polar opposite We’re about taking the world   today and pulling it into the future Uh and and 
athletes and spectators can can choose Do they   want to participate in the sporting world based 
on the past or one that is based on the future   Which category do we put Lance Armstrong in 
Well Lance Armstrong to go back to your initial   question wanted to believe in a world of the 
future while being stuck in a monopoly system of   the past right And um you know I am a an amateur 
athlete but certainly not an elite one Um and but   I am a uh a a philosopher a business person and 
uh someone who likes to drive cultural change   And that’s uh you know the unique skill set that I 
brought to this equation You know Lance could have   broken out of the tour to France system and said 
you know what we’re going to create the enhanced   uh tour right he had the fame he had the power he 
had the money to do it and everyone was using EPO   at the time Yeah I think that’s more about getting 
an edge rather than it is about the philosophical   pursuit of see exploring the limits of human 
performance And it’s then if you come to the   enhanced games that itch to create an edge happens 
again does that become neural link Does that   become genetic It figures out where the limits 
of its category are and it tests those limits   Absolutely right Right And I hope that happens 
because that’s a market force that will drive   human innovation Um so one day um pharmacological 
interventions like anabolic steroids and synthetic   growth hormones will no longer uh allow us to 
break world records We’ll reach the peak of   human potential with version one enhancements 
And by that time we will have already built a   technology pipeline of products whether they are 
brain computer interfaces artificial intelligence   uh cybernetics allow us to push to the next level 
of human enhancement uh and we will be able to   create a rule set where they can be used safely 
and under full clinical and scientific supervision   I could definitely make an argument that there’s 
something deeply human about the idea of limits   and that struggling within those limits is 
intrinsic within the soul of sport Well I   think that’s that’s an interesting question Well 
it’s it’s more of a comment right Um there is   something intrinsically human about limits Yes 
But there’s also something intrinsically human   about looking beyond our limits For the totality 
of human history up until the last h 100red years   um we believe that we were stuck on this earth 
right We you know the the Wright brothers first   flew you o only more than a hundred years ago 
now And less than 50 years from when the Wright   brothers flew you know um Yur Gagarin went into 
space and then Neil Armstrong landed on the moon   right We we pursue beyond our limits as human 
beings And I think that this era that we live in   is an era of great technological expansion Uh and 
that we have seen ourselves look beyond our limits   you know we now have a a full-time intellectual 
sidekick in chat GPT in a world in a way that we   could have never imagined previously And you know 
as far as I can understand um sport hitherto has   been the only field of human endeavor that has a 
technological cap on it So the IOC and water have   placed this cap on technological innovation That 
doesn’t happen in academia It doesn’t happen in   science It doesn’t happen uh in in finance right 
Only in sport is there a hard technological cap   Imagine if um at the time of Gutenberg right Um 
the the academy said “Oh no no we can’t use the   printed word It only has to be hand transcribed.” 
And you read from that time in the 1500s about   this debate between the printed word and the 
written word And there was seen as something very   deeply spiritual and a connection with God about 
handtranscribing and how the printed word and the   printed book was something less It was somehow 
adulterating the word of God But if somehow the   powers of the beast said “You know what We can’t 
allow the printed word.” What would that have done   to our society It would have fundamentally held us 
back in the greatest intellectual revolution ever   Right Imagine today if Harvard University said we 
are not going to allow artificial intelligence at   all because we believe in the purity of the human 
mind and that artificial intelligence pollutes   the integrity of the academy Right It would be a 
ridiculous statement to make But this is exactly   what the IOC does It says we have created these 
artificial rules and we believe that this narrow   set of substances anabolic steroids are bad but 
creatine is not Pollutes the integrity of sport   Uh and therefore there’s a hard technology cap I 
think the assumption there is that all progress is   good and that we should never be protected from it 
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show All technological advancements I believe are   gross positive They’re not that positive Um so a 
society is better off as a whole but individual   actors will lose out Right And so this is the 
analysis of the lites um with the first invention   of mechniz industrial production Right The Lites 
were these machine breakers who would break into   factories at night to destroy the machines of 
Satan who were taking away the jobs of of of um   factory workers and weavers So yes there have been 
leidites all throughout history but time and time   again they’ve been proven wrong Whether it was the 
the printed word the personal computer industrial   manufacturing right Society is always better off 
through technology but there are always individual   actors who lose out And so in this situation 
who is going to lose out by the creation of   the enhanced games Well the athletes are going to 
make more money right Because I’m paying a million   dollars for a world record and the Olympics pay 
nothing right So there’s going to be a competitive   market tension there But who’s going to lose out 
It’s the fact that the IOC president flies around   the world in a private jet He literally lives in 
a palace And the athletes of the world get paid   nothing The IOC system is designed for the benefit 
of bureaucrats not the athletes and they’re the   ones who are going to lose on They’re they’re 
the ones who appear the most from what we are   doing Yeah no doubt The economics of the IOC water 
model don’t work for the many They work for the   few But I don’t agree that that’s the only victim 
to it sport is are if you look at the masters the   other day golf courses are flooded around Ireland 
with kids around Ireland thinking they can be the   next Rory Mroy they can be the next Rory Mroy it’s 
that can’t see me can’t be mess all around Ireland   they’re flooded on the into the streets riding 
their bikes when Ben Healey wins a bike race   we’ve long in society realized there’s a protected 
class and we don’t allow underage to get tattoos   to consume alcohol but we’re putting them into in 
this We’re holding our heroes up No one wants to   watch the 100 meters been won in 9 seconds if it’s 
been won in 6 seconds in the enhanced games So the   enhanced games becomes our heroes And now we have 
children a protected class who is aspiring to be   something that is not morally the equivalent 
of what our stars are now Yeah So the editor   of Men’s Health magazine asked me this question 
He sat out of my office in London and said “What   about the children Don’t you think you’re creating 
a negative environment in the exact same way that   you have described?” And I said “No you did it 
Men’s Health magazine for decades has put these   chiseled adamances on their cover and they said 
the secret is six-minute abs or it’s eat chicken   and broccoli.” Never once have they said this 
model uses anabolic steroids And it’s pretty   bloody obvious that the majority of cover models 
on men’s health have used enhancements Yeah Yeah   Yeah But that but that’s that’s a little bit 
disingenuous because those physiques are very   very achievable Like you can make the argument 
that to get to TA Patcha’s level is you know   there’s a huge genetic component there That’s 
not a realistic target for any kid to aspire to   With a good strength training plan and a strict 
diet almost anyone with average enough genetics   can get a physique similar to men’s health Uh I 
don’t think that’s correct To be a men’s health   cover model um requires a very significant uh 
either genetic advantage or human enhancement Sure   it will it will speed it but like the data doesn’t 
support that Like it it’s a very achievable   physique to get to single digit body fat Uh I 
would disagree with that completely 6% of men   in Britain and the United States admit to using uh 
anabolic steroids at some point in their life Um   and uh you know fundamentally the uh what we what 
has been considered achievable has been distorted   by the fact that the vast majority of elite 
athletes and fitness influencers have used uh   substances on the band list at some point in their 
life and that it’s backed up by evidence Yeah No   nobody’s saying that that those uh outcomes are 
easy to get but they’re achievable because they’re   not you’re not genetically limited to get there 
The band substances genetics will get you there   faster but they’re very attainable pathways 
Yeah So it’s not impossible Uh are they easily   achievable Maybe we’re debating about semantics 
there Yeah Yeah But but what I would say is that   the limitation that sports has their limitations 
today right I’m 5 foot 10 I will never play in the   NBA But what if I could take a pill that made me 
taller right Why should why should I not be able   to be allowed to overcome my genetic disadvantages 
Right Some people have won the genetic lottery And   in the quest of equality should we not allow those 
who have not won the genetic lottery to level up   No Be because we have we always have protected 
that minor class And unless we’re saying it so   the example I’d use at the moment is I compete in 
Brazilian jiu-jitsu and my entire life I’ve cycled   Brazilian jiu-jitsu is as we would say not natty 
You can take whatever you want there my nephew now   who is 2 years old I couldn’t ethically encourage 
my sister to put him into Brazilian jiu-jitsu if   he aspires to be the next Gordon Ryan We know 
it’s associated we’ve seen enough longtail data   on the effects of it We know it’s associated with 
suboptimum health outcomes Brazilian jiu-jitsu is   steroid use specifically the stack that the top 
fighters are using So so let if we want to talk   about science and healthcare let’s talk about it 
on a scientific level Professor David Nod Imperial   College London 2012 um publishes a landmark 
survey in the Lancet right And it’s the all cause   uh risk associated with both uh recreational and 
performance drugs Highest risk alcohol number two   heroin And at the bottom end of the spectrum 
anabolic steroids self-administered without   clinical supervision And you know what’s not 
on the list Sugar Ultrarocessed Food McDonald’s   Coca-Cola Two of the longest serving Olympic 
sponsors Two organizations that have done more   damage to public health than any other entities 
in the totality of human history You know you   want to talk about um health and sport Look 
at the principal sponsors of of of rugby uh   in Ireland right They’re alcohol companies right 
and the and the damage that has done to public   health Well the poisons in the dogs Sure Right 
But do do you think that uh an organization like   McDonald’s should be allowed to promote its wares 
to children through Olympic sports sponsorship   when it is when the known damages uh are are um 
among the most deadly toxins um available in the   totality of human history tough to put together a 
compelling argument for McDonald’s but education   around macros is important A McDonald’s hamburger 
has fewer calories and more higher protein content   than your typical protein health bar Uh yes But 
you know a ask the question like should we be   promoting McDonald’s directly to children through 
Olympic sponsorship Yes or no Well again it’s the   poison is in the dose If you’re using McDonald’s 
as a post like it’s like Coca-Cola it’s one of the   title sponsors Should we be promoting Coca-Cola 
to kids Well it’s yes and no Coca-Cola at the   wrong time to kids absolutely not Coca-Cola during 
the middle of a bike race Almost can’t think of a   better formulated bike drink to have Caffeine 
sugar easily accessible glucose The same drink   in your glycogen re-uptake window straight 
after sport Amazing sitting at the cinema   down two liters of it It’s bad So it’s a nuanced 
question It’s not a yes or no Absolutely right   And I think the same is true of performance 
enhancement So I like to analogize this to   Hollywood So the Kardashians they are visibly 
openly uh and honestly enhanced right They use   cosmetic enhancements on a regular basis They talk 
about it on their Instagram all day long right   Children look at look up to the Kardashians but 
the guardian is clinical supervision right A a   young girl might say “You know what mom I want to 
look like a Kardashian.” A girl might be really   persistent And that mother might take him to 
a um to to a doctor And doctor’s going to say   “Sorry you’re not right for this treatment at this 
point in time Maybe at some point in the future.”   But being open transparent and honest about usage 
is really important Right Right When 44% of elite   athletes admit to using ban substances and only 
1% get caught right That means 43% of them are   lying Where’s that stat come from Like I’ve been 
around bike racing been a pro bike racer A lot   of friends who are current active pro bike racers 
Anecdotally that stat is not close in one of the   dirtiest sports in the world Ultra comtock journal 
of sports medicine 2012 It’s getting massively   skewed from somewhere though like weightlifting 
because that if you surveyed a thousand people ask   them to name the dirtiest sports everyone’s going 
to put cycling on their podium and I’m inside the   loop and I can tell you that’s that is not even 
close If it’s 04% I’d be shocked in world tour   highest level at the moment The guard rails are so 
high like whereabouts testing has changed the game   Testing doesn’t work Testing doesn’t work Period 
Full stop Right Why Because the underlying what   what WADA does not have and this is actually so 
important to realize is that WADA doesn’t have the   calibration data They don’t have elite athletes 
who have used band substances openly saying what   their stack is Right So they don’t actually have 
the data to actually calibrate their tests And   so leading a water scientists have come to my 
conferences come to conferences hosted by the   enhanced games to say the Olympics cannot be clean 
unless there is an enhanced games because they   need the calibration data Interesting Okay let 
let’s run with this because I I am I am enjoying   this a lot So we we slide into this world with 
the enhanced games Do you see this as athletes are   going to be backed up by independent medical teams 
or is that responsibility for experimentation lie   fully on them Uh so it’s been very interesting 
over the last 18 months talking to hundreds of   athletes and what I realize is that athletes are 
not influencers Athletes want to just be on the   team They want to uh have all of their marketing 
physiootherapy travel everything taken care of   and they just want to practice their craft Um and 
so the ideal configuration is something like the   Premier League or the NFL where an athlete is 
signed and the team takes care of everything   The least optimal configuration is like the 
Olympics where uh unless you’re from a country   like France or Australia uh you’re effectively a 
free agent and you’ve got to sort of do everything   yourself in addition to um practicing the craft 
of your sport And so the delivery model of the   enhanced games is to be like the Premier League 
or the NFL When we invite an athlete to compete   at the enhanced games we will sign them We 
will give them a comprehensive health checkup   to make sure that they’re safe to compete We 
will continue to monitoring but we will also   pay for their travel their accommodation We’ll 
support them in terms of their marketing and and   messaging Uh and they will be a member of the 
team Yeah that that’s nice to hear At least I   still worry about the aspiring athletes who are 
trying to break into it because they’re going   to fall into the self-experimentation category 
Now look it’s no different to you know so-called   clean sport in the Armstrong era where we’ve seen 
probably the best case studies of how drastic it   got with self-experimentation for lower level 
athletes to the point Ricardo Rico took out   points of his own blood stored them in the fridge 
without an anti-coagulant agent and then just put   them back into his system crashing his entire 
system and almost killing himself Yeah and and   and and that’s where being open and honest about 
all of this reduces information deficits So can I   fix all the problems of economic inequality in 
this world No I cannot But certainly I want to   create a system where proathletes are signed to 
the enhanced games and they are fully supported   throughout the whole ecosystem uh and we can 
create uh pathways for uh you know amateur   semi-pro where they are supported where there’s 
good training facilities where there is great   support uh networks available to them so that 
no one has to ever resort to you know the Lance   Armstrong Balco methodology of what is effectively 
an underground laboratory and self-experimentation   um and breaking down these barriers and publishing 
information hosting conferences having discussions   like this um really reduces risk because we’re 
openly sharing information in a way that has not   been done for decades Have you seen this study 
It’s it’s a few years old at this point where   they survey a number of Olympic athletes and 
they say “If I could give you a pill that would   guarantee you an Olympic gold medal would you 
die 12 months later Would you take the pill?”   and they surveyed a not insignificant number of 
athletes and 100% of them said they would take the   pill So that’s interesting So uh Professor Giannis 
Basaldis who uh is um a notable very notable sport   scientist who’s on the WA um scientific commission 
actually quoted this survey at a conference   um we hosted at Oxford University in December and 
said that the data has been reviewed substantially   several times and it has never been cooperated Um 
so I think that you know the original survey was   made for let’s say um comic effect comic effect 
and has never been replicated but it it is in the   validity of it or not uh like we can’t I can’t 
verify it live but taking the sentiment of it   as someone who spent a lot of time in elite 
sport and I can vividly remember coming down   alpine or pyrene desense at the front of a bike 
race and having the thought process I don’t care   if I die I’m not breaking and getting dropped 
out of this group Elite athletes are slightly   wired different Their riskto-reward perception 
is different than your typical human How do you   think about that in terms of dosage amount of 
medication they’re taking long-term health of   the athlete like we obviously don’t want to have 
an enhanced games where 100% of athletes die 12   months after the enhanced games So the key to this 
is clinical supervision and uh the the principal   risk associated with performance enhancements 
is cardiac and cardiac risk is very knowable   and very measurable Uh and let’s be very clear the 
anti-doping system today is not about health It’s   not about safety It’s about fairness Right The 
fair the fairness is the motus operandi of the   system and if water and the IOC wanted to build a 
safety based system they would do what I do which   is comprehensive full system health checkups of 
every athlete echo cardiograms MRI blood work   uh prior to competition uh and ongoing throughout 
training based on clinical needs um and that would   uh you know it’s it’s dramatically expensive right 
Tens of thousands of dollars per athlete per year   Um but that is how we ensure that our athletes 
are healthy and safe to compete and the Olympics   won’t do this because it’s too expensive for them 
What kind of athletes are being drawn to this at   the moment Are they athletes on the fringe that 
never quite made it to top level sport Uh no It   is ath you know the the issue for the Olympics is 
an economic one uh when you’re an elite swimmer   or runner or weightlifter and weightlifting 
probably is the worst of those three you know   you’re the best in the world at what you do and 
you might only earn $30,000 a year Um and you   know you’re looking comparing yourself against 
elite footballers basketball players baseball   players who are earning tens if not hundreds of 
millions of dollars a year And you ask yourself   why is it that in the principal areas of human 
endeavor like running and swimming two of the   most basic things we do there is no money there 
is no money whatsoever in those sports compared to   um uh compared to the American team sports 
or or European football And why is that is   because of systematic corruption and dysfunction 
in the governing bodies and in the international   Olympic committee Right they are still stuck 
in this amateurist ethos right Including many   of the sporting federations still have amateur in 
their name Um like the amateur athletics union uh   and and they refuse to create a system that pays 
athletes well And so when we’re offering a million   dollars to break a world record we’re offering 
business class flights and fivestar hotels and   saying I slept in a cardboard bed at the Paris 
Olympics it’s not even a choice It’s so obvious   that we care about athletes and the Olympic system 
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That’s fori Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii i   i iii.com I’m going to put that in the description 
down below Do you see it Do you see an ability to   attract the best of the best across like is 
Rashida Adeleke going to go across from 400   meters with a 15-year career ahead of her and 
you know the agilation that goes with winning   goals hopefully in the next two Olympics for our 
country All that glitters isn’t gold Um uh and all   that’s gold doesn’t glitter Um and so I think 
it’s actually like very simple and and and and   members of the International Olympic Committee 
have come to my office and sat here and talked   to me It’s very good to have the dialogue And 
what the smart members of the IOC know is that   as soon as we have the world records the 100 
meter the mile the marathon the 53 in the pool   we are the ultimate avenue of human competition 
and athletes viewers hosts are not interested in   a second tier competition right And you think 
about the Commonwealth Games The Commonwealth   Games as a concept are effectively dead Um 
because they are a second tier competition   They were never able to attract the best athletes 
They were never able to attract the best media   rights and and ticket sales and host cities And 
so ultimately uh they they have died as a concept   uh and I think the Olympics will suffer from that 
because the best athletes in the world will say   actually you know what I can make good money 
at the enhanced games and it is the ultimate   avenue of human competition The test will be the 
viewership if I’m so conflicted because on the one   hand I do agree with you We want to see the 100 
meters going in six seconds But then on the other   hand I’ve spoken on the podcast to cyclists who 
have set incredible times on clims like that no   clean athletes are doing And I was like why does 
more people not care about that And overwhelmingly   the feedback was no one cares because he’s not 
compliant with WAD He’s most likely lit Just   don’t care No I think I think that Do you want to 
be a human 1.0 know when you know humans 2.0 exist and people are proud proud to be a human 2.0 
Yeah The the if I was to straw man the argument   against it it’s you can take so much of like the 
Armstrong hard work is real The sacrifice is real   The training camps are real The altitude is 
real The night’s going to bed with a pain   in his stomach because of food deprivation is 
all real Nobody cares Nobody cares how fast he   went up down climbs History’s edited him out Well 
because because he broke the rules of the system   He wasn’t proud to be enhanced He was afraid But 
widely that’s acknowledged that everyone who was   doping then to go back to those years and try and 
find a clean tour to France you have to go so far   down that GC But still nobody cares Nobody thinks 
he’s the champion Yeah Because because they were   lying right If if Lance Armstrong went out there 
and stood on the on the on the Shanzal under the   arct trial and said you know two years ago I 
was dying of cancer and I’m back here on the   podium as the greatest cyclist in the world 
thanks to EPO It would have been the ompic   of of the early 2000s It would have been the 
category defining drug and created a trillion   dollar market overnight Yeah OMIC has thrown up 
this philosophical debate because we all talked   about wanting to get to the podium and that being 
the important thing Now we’re left with a debate   going Is it actually important to me to have 
a six-pack or is it the work that it takes to   get a six-pack that’s actually important Is the 
process more important than the outcome And I’ve   enjoyed this conversation an awful lot and I’m 
gonna definitely be watching this space closely   but I’m kind of left wondering with it when 
somebody breaks a 4hour iron man or a one hour   30 marathon Am I going to celebrate that or am I 
going to mourn it I I I I I I think it’s going to   be a mourning in some ways of a loss of humans 1.0 
and a celebration of moving into the next version   of mankind Um you know I was at dinner on Friday 
night here in Manhattan Every single person uh at   this dinner party was on Ompic Every single person 
Yeah And and uh you know they were all wealthy   image conscious people Uh but it has become normal 
Uh it has become celebrated and and almost to the   point is to become expected But it’s such a weird 
culture that that’s normal and celebrated and like   it’s I I guess the people I’ve talked that have 
actually had the biggest push back against Oimp   are probably people that are currently skinny 
because we had a very reliable signal indicator   for a long time for people that were in shape I 
could go on a first date with someone and they’d   show up and I’d be like “Oh she’s in shape I’ve 
no data points on this girl only she’s in shape.”   But now I can say “Hey there’s someone who can 
delay gratification there’s someone who can show   up consistently without seeing immediate results 
That’s thrown that whole signaling system on its   head now and you don’t know what to think Did 
they just take a pill or are they actually that   type of person You could still now be the slot 
person who can’t delay gratification who can’t   show up consistently but you’ve taken a pill It’s 
going to take a while for us to figure out where   to foil these people how we get a new signal Yeah 
And I you know it’s like uh you can make the same   argument about Botox right Yeah Uh it it it is 
uh you know it it changes the dynamics of what   is beauty And maybe it’s that um we don’t need 
to rely on our natural predispositions winning   the genetic lottery but also realizing that 
human beings were not did not evolve to exist   in the world that we live in today right You know 
I was as as a CEO who sits in an office for 12 to   14 hours a day We were not designed to be in this 
sedentary world uh eating you know ultrarocessed   foods that are being bombarded to us by highly 
sophisticated marketing algorithms and human   enhancement technologies like Ombic allow us to uh 
counteract some of those negative forces that are   um intrinsic to our society today Yeah I I don’t 
we we won’t kick off a new conversation but I   don’t agree they’re intrinsic to our society 
today They’re maybe intrinsic in the Manhattan   circles but in the wider circles maybe Maybe not 
You maybe need a new circle Maybe I that’s that’s   possibly correct right Uh and certainly you 
know I I I live between uh New York and London   uh and just existing in the food system here in 
the United States is just oppressive Yeah Right   It feels like everything you eat even if it feels 
like it’s healthy uh or looks like it’s healthy   is just poison Um and it’s basically impossible to 
eat good quality healthy food here even if you’re   you know in Manhattan shopping at Whole Foods and 
you know spending $200 on a bag of groceries like   there’s something fundamentally broken about 
American society uh that has led to the rise   of things like Ozmpic but society changes right 
and I think that an ancient Greek ethos of sport   does not fit in our modern world anymore and 
it doesn’t mean there isn’t a place for it but   um it does mean that there is a place for an 
enhanced games and there might be a version   three enhanced games a version four version five 
where we say you know what what kind of human am I   Do you want to be a natural ancient uh paleolithic 
style human Do you want to be a 20th century human   a 21st century human Um and we get to make that 
choice right And we might coexist I’m not sure   it’s a measure of health to be well adapted to 
a sick society but I think we’ll leave it there   Yeah exactly Well it’s you know thank you uh for 
a very thoughtful and provoking conversation I’ve   done probably close to a thousand interviews 
with some of the top publications in the world   when I’ve not had a discussion about natural law 
So thank you very much for having me on the show   Hon really enjoyed this conversation Thank you 
so much for giving so freely your time Thank you   very much Thanks for watching Roadman Take one 
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