Remembering Frank Carroll with Phil Hersh

Born in Worcester, Massachusetts, Frank Carroll’s father introduced him to figure skating on an outdoor pond. Early in his youth, an indoor ice rink was built across the street from his home – a love affair with a sport that compired artistry, athleticism, dance and theater was born.

Frank Carroll was twice a national bronze medalist at the junior level and a New England champion before he turned professional and toured with the Ice Follies. He even had a brief stint in acting, which he remained deeply private about until the end of his days.

The son of a professor, Frank was a strong student and graduated on the Dean’s List from the College of the Holy Cross with a B.S. in Sociology. Though he initially intended on attending San Francisco Law School, he was spurred to enter the coaching realm after his beloved coach, Maribel Vinson Owen, and his dear friends and peers perished on the plane crash of Sabena 548 – taking the lives of the entire United States team heading to the 1961 World Figure Skating Championships.

The excellent student proved to be a master teacher. In 1968, he had his first national medalist. A year later, Frank coached Jimmy Demogines to the novice national title. In 1972, he coached Robert Bradshaw to be the Olympic alternate. Four years later, he had his first Olympian with Linda Fratianne. Linda went on to win the world title in 1977 and 1979 and finished a controversial second at the 1980 Olympic Games.

He soon coached Tiffany Chin to gold at the world junior championships and guided Christopher Bowman for eighteen years. Frank is best known for changing the sport when he teamed up with Michelle Kwan. Early in Kwan’s career, Carroll began a collaboration with choreographer Lori Nichol that elevated the art form of figure skating and transformed the long program into a choreographic work of art. Together, Carroll, Kwan and Nichol redefined excellence and were the epitome of class, elegance and grace during the height of figure skating’s popularituy.

Carroll coached students to countless titles at the national, international and Olympic levels. His pupils include: Michelle Kwan, Linda Fratianne, Christopher Bowman, Evan Lysacek, Denis Ten, Tiffany Chin, Mirai Nagasu, Gracie Gold, Tim Goebel, Karen Kwan, Joanna Ng, Beatrisa Liang, Jonathan Cassar, Robert Bradshaw, Yebin Mok, Angela Nikodinov, Jennifer Kirk, Danielle Kahle, Carolina Kostner, Silvia Fontana, Nicole Bobek, Daisuke Murakami, Carly Gold, Scott Dyer, Doug Mattis, Craig Heath, Jeri Campbell, Ellie Kawamura, Kristiene Gong, Luis Hernandez, Todd Sand and Tessa Hong.

Frank Carroll is a symbol of resilience, discipline, hard work and doing things the right way. Despite losses at the Olympics that broke of the heart of the teacher for students Linda Fratianne and Michelle Kwan, Frank Carroll persevered and never gave up. When pupil Evan Lysacek won gold at the 2010 Olympic Games, the skating world erupted – equally as delighted for Frank as they were for Evan.

Despite all of accomplishments of his famous students, Frank considered his happiest coaching moment to be guiding Robert Taylor to win the novice men’s national title against all odds by sheer hard work and discipline.

Carroll will be remembered for his wit, wisdom, intelligence and love of the sport. He coached three world champions, six Olympic medalists, six U.S. senior champions and had the honor of coaching at 10 Olympic Games.

Frank is predeceased by his mother, Agnes, father, Thomas, and sister, Rosemary.

He passed away peacefully in the morning hours of Sunday, June 9, surrounded by friends and loves one. Frank Carroll made figure skating better.

Philip Hersh spent 28 years as Olympic sports writer for the Chicago Tribune and has gone on to write about the Olympics and figure skating for icenetwork and NBC Olympics. He has covered 20 Olympics — 12 Winter and 8 Summer — seven soccer World Cups (four men, three women), 35 U.S. Figure Skating Championships, 20 World Figure Skating Championships, 12 World Track and Field Championships, two Pan American Games and more than two dozen other national championships in Olympic sports.

As an internationally recognized expert in the field, Hersh has appeared on the NBC Today Show and Nightly News; NBC’s “Winter Olympics Daily” show in 2010 and 2018; the ABC Evening News; CBS Sunday Morning and CBS Olympic coverage; ESPN’s Sportsweek; CNN; Chicago Tonight; Monitor Radio, PBS Radio and NPR.

Hersh was born in Boston and graduated from Yale University with a B.A. in French and did advanced study in Spanish and Italian.

He has been a four-time nominee for the Pulitzer Prize and a winner of multiple Associated Press Sports Editors annual writing awards, Chicago Headline Club awards and Chicago Society of Black Journalists award.

N.Y. Times columnist George Vecsey wrote that “among the qualities of an ideal journalist is the international vision of Phil Hersh.”

hello and welcome to the skating lesson today I’m thrilled to welcome legendary journalist Phil Hirsch to discuss Frank Carol Phil welcome to the show well thank you Dave I hope you’re having a good summer which is about it’s arriving full force in Chicago today the heat is on yes uh here in New Jersey as well uh how are you doing you got over covid or I got over whatever it was my wife had Co I had I decided to contract one of the other 1.38 billion virus that are out there it was not it was not pleasant it wasn’t terrible either so um I’m over it I’m back on my bicycle so yeah all all is well okay good to hear so I wanted to have you on to discuss Frank Carrol because you have interviewed Frank so many times I remember growing up even reading your interviews with him when did you first meet Frank harroll oh Lord it had to be trying to think back um I wasn’t covering fig skating well yes I was covering figure skating at the 1980 Olympics so I would have probably met him in passing then because I wasn’t covering figure skating full-time at the 1980 Olympics um and then more so with uh with Tiffany chin a little bit but of course you know the long relationship that I had with Frank developed around Michelle and then with Evan Lich both of whom were with Frank for the better Michelle for what eight from 1992 to late 2001 and then Evan was I believe 2004 through the 2010 Gold Medal so that’s the time I had my most concentrated interactions with Frank Were You There When to witness him uh I guess Christopher Bowman as well would have been oh of course what am I thinking about yeah I was I witnessed the performance in Halifax when Christopher did a program that barely resembled anything that anybody had choreographed and uh and he he W up doing well it’s Frank just you know the Frank was just enough old school that um he it wasn’t good enough that Christopher W up doing well because he had not skated anything that resembled what they’d worked on for all those months yeah Christopher was I mean you think about Frank at the end he wound up having coached two of the most talented and tormented figure skaters the US that I’ve seen in my time covering uh figure skating Christopher and Gracie Gold yeah absolutely and he brought out and he brought out the the best what we ever saw of Gracie Gold as a skater and he also brought out the best of Christopher who no matter what happen seemed to still make it to World teams and Olympics and and uh whatever I remember was it in 19 in uh 1988 in in uh Calgary Christopher roomed or was across the hall from Paul Wy and uh and Paul Paul basically was going to send in the cops to arrest them because Paul said I got no sleep from christop because of Christopher Shen nanigans but yeah I mean it took obviously it’s a very sad end for Christopher um and Gracie see has seems to have turned her life around which is just wonderful what stood what stood out to you uh you know you’ve covered obviously a lot of great coaches uh what stood out to you about Frank Frank was um one of those coaches who didn’t think that he should be in local parentes he he did not have a lot like John Nicks who said I remember talking to John Nicks about Sasha you know said she has a family I’m not her family I’m her Coach Frank Frank would be your friend but he wouldn’t be your parent um and so he tried to keep a degree of separation um when he got fed up with somebody not not working hard enough he he would just walk over to a corner of the rink and try to gather his thoughts because as as Frank told me um in the long long uh story I did on on when he retired you know basically I I had a I have a big mouth and I’m not afraid to open it us figure skating often has reminded me maybe I should have kept it close so but Frank had the ability to to not um in most cases to not exacerbate drama even if it’s just drama of a of a bad practice I mean when he got a skater like Evan who was who never knew the word stop uh that then he had another problem which was trying to tell Evan you don’t need to do another run through uh Frank insisted on run throughs um at least one clean run through a day um of of both programs um and you know the one always impressed me most about Frank he was he seemed like he really seemed like he was from another generation he was very courtly um always very well dressed it was funny when to see him wearing a team jacket because I most remember him in a in a suit in a camel hair Overcoat um and he was clearly kind of from that that old Boston era of figure skating even though Frank was not from an old Patrician family um that you know that represented what figure skating was in the country for a long long time um and Frank was a very very smart person who always wanted I mean he he an Avid Reader um the first thing IID ask him when I saw him at a competition would be what book are you reading this week um yeah so I mean he was he was pleasant to be around because he could explain skating to you he was not afraid to express his opinions about people and he knew when he did know when to back away I mean in the in the penko Lich de debate quote unquote about quadruple jumps at the 2010 Olympics when Mion and penko were were you know um balling and whining every day about how can you let us we’re sending figure skating back to ice dancing Franklin and Evan were smart enough not to get into that battle and to detract attention um to detract mental yeah to waste mental energy on being involved in that battle Yeah it’s interesting I I think back to how Frank has really guided the board when I you know got into the sport and thinking about you know Michelle K Quan was at the top of figure skating but you know they made decisions with Lor nickel with those music and choreographic choices that really changed and and morph skating and as someone who obviously loves music and the Arts I was wondering your perspective on you know how revolutionary Michelle’s music choices were every season people were waiting to hear what she was going to uh be skating to yeah I mean she there were no old war horses for Michelle I mean going you know starting with what I still consider her greatest performance Salam at the in 2006 2006 um that was I guess that had been used but not very often not and not that portion of of uh of the Opera so and then you know she moved on to Red Violin and then she was one of the first uh to to use East of Eden um and um you she her music choices were were varied even though toward the end I remember um I it was Anique G told me at the 2011 worlds that she’s still the best skater in the world but things seem to be repeating themselves a little bit technically well she had reached a point where that was she had reached her technical limit but her programs were still were still as different as figure skating programs could be and then of course under the new scoring system figure skating programs are not very different at all um so she Michelle was not a natural artist she was a little jumping jack and Frank worked on the skills that she needed to create leave the impression of an artist which were extraordinary edges I mean when she the spirals were people remember those as much as anything um you know also the ability to spin in both directions um and just a a presence on the Michelle you have to remember was a very small young woman um and yet who could fill an arena which and that that has to do with being coached to have presence and Frank Frank was you know he had had those silly roles in those Beach Blanket movies but Frank was a natural actor Frank was a natural naturally the kind of person who felt himself on the stage and and he was able to convey to Michelle this is a stage you have to command it um you command it not only with your jumping not only with your spirals not only with your spins and she wasn’t the world’s greatest spinner but she everything else was extraordinary not only with your choreography but with your presence Frank understood that from Hollywood and from the musicals he was in and whatever how you know remarkable do you think when you look back at his career that he didn’t win the Olympics until the end of his career I think that’s also you know significantly impressive that he won with Evan who is probably one of his more unlikely Champions really yeah I mean you know obviously you go back to the to the Linda frani situation and we’ll never know the entire truth of that but the the prevailing wisdom is that a deal with was cut to have uh Robin cousins win the men’s so that Annette PCH would then win the women’s ahead of ahead of um Linda and he was devastated by that matter of fact he he stopped talking to Carlo fasi for years and years and years until he finally you know as a many of us do we realize that grudges only drain energy from both people and he reestablished a relationship with them so he thought for sure that Linda was going to win the Olympics she was the reigning world champion um and she didn’t and she he was ready to stop coaching at that point until Tiffany chin came along and they didn’t last very long together and I still think that in terms of raw talent at the time Tiffany chin was the most talented skater I ever saw um but so then eventually you know um Christopher came along and then event eventually Michelle came along and Michelle was a heavy favorite to win in um in Nagano and didn’t um and I believe I I’ll believe as long as I live that there was the right decision and if you saw if you were in the arena it was a totally different perspective about Ring coverage and speed and everything um the interesting thing about that was that um Michelle made no mistakes she just didn’t skate as well as Tara I mean that at the time I wrote that that was Pro almost certainly the greatest losing program in the history of of the Olympics of women skating in the Olympics so then before 2002 they they’d broken apart um Michelle decided to go out on her own um Frank later told me as he thought as they you know they they were they talked they were cordial to each other but they didn’t really talk for a number of years and Frank later told me as he thought back on it you know she’d been listening to the same old man for a long time and at some point maybe you want to hear something fresh I mean there are all sorts of other stories about what cost that split and was probably money was may have been a factor and other things happened but one of the things I remember in that story I did about his retirement was he’s Michelle said she and Frank had a game that they called still hands meaning whose hands would be H most stable right before they would do this and right before a program and I think back to to 2002 in Salt Lake when she fell on the flip and she made one other mistake and and you all you can’t help but but you know do 2020 hindsight and wonder if Frank had been her coach then maybe she would have had her hands would have been Stiller at that moment um so so he he still he considers Michelle’s bronze from Salt Lake as one of the his medals because he think you he took her all away until what three months before so then um you know at that point he had pretty much given up on the idea of coaching an Olympic champion uh you know even though um uh he was still coaching good skaters but you know it’s hard to get from the Olympic champion so they went to to um to Vancouver and Evan had won the World Championships penko didn’t skate um and Evan had at that point had already given up the idea of doing a quadruple jump so it was presumed that it was going to be a close competition but penko was going to win um and as it turned out I mean you know ironically as it turned out the technical technical things are what cost penko that gold medal not choreography which is what people thought he was going to get propped up enough in the in the goe scores I mean he you know Evan did more jumps in the second half of the free skate uh pleno pleno could have won if he attacked on one more double jump I mean Evan and Frank figured out how how to absolutely maximize a non- quad free skate if he did it all flawlessly and he did and he won and because it was so unexpected um Frank to took even more joy from it than he might have taken from one of the expected ones um so I mean it was just great to see him him uh when the gold medal was great when Evan presented him that that award the coach the coaching award that us Olympians get if they they win a gold medal at the at the Olympics I mean he and Evan became quite close friends I know I I took texted Evan after you were kind enough to text me that prank had passed away um and Evan said he had been with them the day before uh and you know Evan came way back all the way across the country for Frank’s 80th birthday party and they developed a really interesting relationship even though again I mean Evan was it took Evan a while to get there Evan had been when Frank got him I think he’d been like 11th seventh seventh and fifth or something in the US championships and then he slowly worked his way up he got that he was sort of he fell his way into a medal in at the worlds in 2005 he fell his way into a medal again at the worlds in 2006 and then by 2007 when he didn’t win a medal um uh he was that’s what was his first really great us Championship so because Frank Frank literally said he had given up on the idea that he was going to have an Olympic gold medalist and then all of a sudden Evan does it for him and and sure I mean obviously if youve coached that long and coached that many really good skaters you would think that it would be something that you would hope your career would um would include and Evan gave that gave him that gift that unexpected gift uh so that you know it basically it was the only missing line in Frank Carol’s career was then filled in I think it’s interesting too that later in his career he had so many skaters from different countries obviously Dennis ten was one of your favorites uh and their career together was really outstanding and um so so emotionally you know the end Dennis’s horrible end Frank was shaken by that um you know the when he turned that that month he turned 80 um uh Evelyn Kramer’s husband died Evelyn had worked with SP with them when spin with for for years and years helping kids learn spins they were very close and then um uh Tab Hunter died and and they had become close in Hollywood and then of course Dennis was murdered so um it was was that was a horrible what what should have been a celebration of his you know turning 80 and still pretty healthy at that point I mean I remember Frank not long before used to talk about going rollerblading through Palm Springs when he was in his early 70s and I’m thinking can you imagine people turn around and see this you know 70-year-old man with this beautiful gray hair come whizzing by them on on roller blades um anyway he and Dennis had a great relationship you probably saw Dennis’s Dennis’s tweet about Frank’s 80th birthday um I still think that the D the combination you know Dennis Chen was the 2013 World Champion even though Patrick Chan won um the combination the the of um doing both pieces of the artist and making it one seamless idea was just brilliant I mean wasn’t that wasn’t Frank but Frank attributed to to making those programs what they were and then you know he worked a little with Carolina Cosner um it was in karolina’s difficult period and um you know she too considers him one of her coaches um oh help me there there were so many that he worked Ru uh yeah Mari of course not again not not for a very long time partly because because Frank was had moved to Palm Springs basically then and marai was way way over in in North the North La suburbs and it became too much of a hassle to get there um and and Gracie and um uh oh I should be able to remember this more um there was either Tim Gable how did we forget Tim Gable um and there’s an interesting situation with with Tim and Evan uh Frank had been coaching Tim and he coached him to the bronze medal at the 2002 Olympics and Evan asked Frank if he could coach him and the first thing that Evan did was go to Tim and say is this okay and Tim agreed it turned out not to be it it didn’t work very very long but he had the it wasn’t just I’m going to take this other skater because I can it was I’m going to ask the skater who has already trusted in me for his approval before I take this other skater so and that’s what happened um Tim had flourished Evan did then flourish yeah and it’s interesting you know you talk about um Tim you know he did visit Frank several times over the last months they reconciled you know I know that you know Tim had been injured and things had happened when they you split at that time when Evan was you know rising and Tim was struggling um and I know Evan visited him several times over the last months as well I was wondering if you remembered the story that happened with Dennis ten and yuzer ohanu at the worlds in Boston so there was a practice incident there that got really out of hand really quickly that was like a nothing but it you know with fans at that point in time it of course it got out of hand because the FS were involved you know it’s sort of to to put it in a contemporary moment here it’s sort of like Caitlyn Clark to some extent the the fan were as crazy as Caitlyn Clark some of these Caitlyn Clark fans they don’t who don’t yeah they had a near Miss at at uh in a practice how many times has that happened I mean there was a big deal in the 2002 Olympics that Sasha had an near miss with Michelle on a practice um these know and then there was the one in the world so helped me were um Mariah Bell and unul had the right and then the there was a peirs crash but but there were um anyway so people overreacted to that um was Dennis ten was not the kind of person who was going to try to run over yuzui so uh I don’t remember what Frank said at that at that point but um I remember Frank being protective of Dennis you know at at that point that it got you know really that he thought it was you know ludicrous at that point in time I mean all of you know there was so something it was like with when you had hanu everything every sneeze every sniffle every whatever got blown out of proportion um and that’s not to take away from his skating because he’s been one of the finest skaters of the last 50 years but his fan it wasn’t hanu who did it it was his fans who did it yeah and that was at the earlier point of you know the rising you know of his fandom becoming what it became that was one of the earlier incidents where right it was when he blew away the he just tore down the building that short program it was so great and then the free skate was a mess and Javier came in with a very very good free skate and won it was a yeah interesting World Championships and that world was obviously when Gracie was favored to win uh and it did and she won the short program as well and it didn’t go well and and afterwards um that was quite a series of 12 months uh between Frank and Gracie that seemed like it was I mean people made a big deal if Frank didn’t seem to look at Gracie at all came off the ice after that free skate um you know I I never really asked Frank about that but yeah I mean Gracie was having problems um that and it’s interesting because I want there are three passages in her book where Gracie addresses her relationship with Frank and one of them uh he she says Frank didn’t want to scratch below the surface on another in another moment she says Frank asked me several times is there anything wrong with you there I can do can I get you some help and then the final and the final the final reference is is her respect for what Frank did for her over those three years I mean none of us clearly the first evidence really and I wasn’t here but I but I heard about it of that Gracie was having issues was it Skate America in 2016 when I happened to be on vacation in in New Zealand and we were in your hometown Phil in my hometown but I had already planned this vacation a long time ago and um Gracie made some comments about her own way brought it up herself and and people you know Gracie looked per by any standards Gracie looked fine um so you you could that was one of the tip offs and and the overreaction to the fourth place the poor free skate at Worlds you know basically I let down the whole country I’m I’m a you know basically she already at that point had said out of I’m an out of shape worthless loser as the of her book um so it became uh then she went on to that grand pre-season and had a terrible Grand Prix season and then I remember doing an interview with her right before she did a a press conference but I remember at the end of it I got some private time with her and I asked her um are you seeing a psychologist and she said no um she was seeing a sports psychologist and I and what in Kansas City when the whole thing really blew up I asked Frank if she had been seeing a clinical psychologist and he said I didn’t know so yeah so then in in Kansas City Gracie had a horrible free skate looked as if she had thrown in the towel um and came off the ice uh Frank asked her first Frank asked her something what do you need some water and Gracie yelled at him then came Frank said uh would you like me to hold your jacket and she said something else and eventually threw the jacket into a trash can um about 10 or 15 minutes later I got Frank by himself and I said you know uh has a come is there has the time come for a change that was the and he said yes it has things are going to change but because we’ve got a business relationship and all I can’t do it you know we can’t just do it we have to do it in an orderly dignified fashion but then he went on to to say I don’t I’ve done everything I possibly can and I can’t do anything more I you know basically I can’t culture anymore um and he you know Gracie was upset that it it got online before Frank had said that to her um but then again that was you know Frank was not one Frank was a great interview because a he could explain the sport to those of us who don’t know it as well even after my 40 Years of covering it I have a lot to learn um and second um uh Frank would say what he found felt and he’s what he felt was he was fed he he had Lo fed up with Gracie and Gracie says in her book that Franken lost patience with me and you know you got to remember let’s let’s remember that a year before that um he she went out and lost the short program at Nationals to Paulina Edmonds who SK a great short program and then did the performance of her life but the the um Firebird she was just so it was everything about it was dazzling um and finally you began to see the the kid who I first wrote about in 2011 when she was on the way to the world junior Championship and people were calling her the ne greatest thing since sliced bread um so at that you know 2016 a month before no two months before worlds she’s on an absolute High having skated absolutely brilliantly Frank later told me that that um that um that and Michelle salame were the two greatest female performances of his skaters that he’d seen which is quite something when you could you could think you might go with five or six of Michelle’s or some of Linda’s um and so a month or two months later Gracie could not the pressure just overwhelmed her I mean way back from the beginning she had admitted to uh feeling a lot of pressure um and then you know the then the book which is just no no holds B it’s it’s it’s a compelling read because Gracie like Frank did not leave anything out of the story um you know she starts talking about what was going on uh and you know the the fourth place as it was fourth place it wasn’t 17th Place um that but that crushed Gracie and and uh whatever the problems that she was already enduring it made them impossible to deal with without real help and and um you know obviously it was very sad it was not so sad that she it was would have been nice to see her if she’d won a World medal or even the world title because she you know she was ahead in the short program but not ahead ahead ahead um and that was M of his first world championship first world title um so but the problems wouldn’t have gone away um so on the one hand so it’s interesting on the one hand Gracie said Frank didn’t want to scratch below the surface on the other hand he she quotes him as saying he there only way I can help what’s going on what can we do is something bothering you and then in in in the in summary she gives Frank respect and credit for helping uh build her career to the level of C it’s complicated she’s a complicated human being who who um who seems to have gotten herself together which is wonderful because I remember writing in 20 in 2017 when she announced that she was taking time away from skating you know basically writing that you know at that point she was what 20 or 21 I said the what she’s done in skating is enough she’s got the rest of a Life to Live let’s now the most important thing is find a way to live that productively and in fact it seems that she is doing that she just spoke to the ISU Congress on on Mental Health um which is a big deal I mean you know they picked an interesting that’s an interesting choice I give the new uh uh leadership of the ISU some credit for picking somebody like that because somebody might have seen her as a as a be merching the sport but they saw her her her cry for help as something that the sport needs to listen to yeah I was wondering about Frank split with Michelle that you mentioned because obviously his split with Gracie got so much attention I think the most interesting thing about the split with Michelle is that neither one said it much of anything about it at the time and I was wondering as a journalist how interesting that was for you well I can go back I just happened to open that story a minute ago um where K bear with me here while I look this up um what what bothered excuse me I’ve covered my screen um what bothered Frank the mo most was that Michelle didn’t tell him it’s it’s like Frank not telling Gracie that uh he was gonna drop her so um yeah they didn’t say very much Frank was Frank said he was shocked um and and then then of course when I talked to him in 2018 looking back with with hindsight 10 years of hind almost 10 years of hindsight um no what am I talking about almost 20 years of hindsight he he put it in a different context um and no Michelle didn’t say much didn’t say much about the situation the entire time not even at the Olympics she said you know every time she said well you’re on kind of on your own here he said well she said I have my dad and I’ve got help and I I I can’t remember somebody else was in the kiss and cry with her in um a team leader in Salt Lake um I I forget exactly whom um it was to me that was a thousand times more shocking than than um what than Gracie and Frank um you know because Michelle was at that point she had uh been one two 96 90 96 98 20002 2001 World Champion um she’d been second in the Olympics she’d won the F you know all but one world all but won US Championship from 96 through through 2001 there didn’t seem to be anything going wrong that’s why there were all of these things that people contend it was contractual um as there was was once an issue with Michelle’s boots and she was having trouble with boots and that was apparently she was supposedly being kept in the other boots because it was a contractual issue so I mean we don’t and Michelle had was even back then was was too gracious ever to say anything like that um so yeah I mean that was that was very very surprising and really you know they as I said um earlier they they remained cordial you know they when they walked by each other in the hall at a competition they didn’t turn away um they at least say hello how you doing and whatever um and I remember actually going to Frank uh in um 2004 when when Michelle delivered in Atlanta one of one of the greatest performances of her career because it looked as if she might not she just couldn’t do it anymore all the jumps and she just said here you go people here he is I could still do this and Frank her a great compliment you know she’s still the best skater in the world and and on and on so um they you know for Michelle don’t forget she started with Frank at age 11 um uh and one of the nice things Michelle said to me in 2018 and sort of again in in her message after Frank passed away was that um Frank would would there was the old the famous you know I called him Mr Carol and he said forget that Mr stuff I’m I’m Frank and that was one of his pet peeves but Michelle said he gave as much attention to a a seven-year-old who would be skating on the rink as he did to one of his great Champions and and and when Michelle was 11 and wondering you know how am I gonna you know that wasn’t that far from from uh Linda fradiani and it was obviously closer to Christopher Bowman and she knew that Frank had coached a lot of great skaters um including Tiffany who who uh so Michelle was sort of odd to be in that environment but Frank took her also from a little kid to a woman um by the time you know Michelle was 15 in um 16 in 20 in 1996 I should remember this I think she’s born in 1980 so I think she was still 15 about to be 16 in 1996 worlds and then by the time they were that he was they were finished she was a young a young woman in her 20s that’s a you know even if Frank wasn’t going to be her parent the fact they were around a lot of what Michelle Michelle’s exemplary behavior became became I want to give credit something some credit for modeling that behavior to her absolutely yeah I think you’re right I think they set a standard of skating and professionalism and and as an athlete and how she carried herself how do you compare Frank to the great coaches in other sports oh it’s so hard because I mean individual coaches we’re talking about right so you know um it’s hard it’s swimming coaches you can certainly Bob Bowman um you know had has had won the legendary swimmer of of all time and stayed with him for a long time I I think you’d you’d um probably well the two the the more comparable examples and I’m not as fluent in gymnastics as I should be would be gymnastics because it’s an individual sport a different kind of individual an individual subjectively judg sport unlike swimming where the clock is the judge um so you know you want to go back and talk to uh talk about Bella but Bella’s reputation now is so checkered that it’s impossible even I almost feel bad you know it almost feels like I want to take a shower after mentioning his name now um so I mean I don’t know I mean uh look at what um what uh thees have done for for for some but that’s only that’s one athlete over a short period of time I I don’t know the history of of a great us gymnastics coaches well enough to find the obvious comparison you do though who would who would you think would be close who coached for a long time and coached a number of different athletes I actually think Marta coroli instead of Bella but as you mentioned you know the Legacy being like that and I think you have to compare him to Carlo FY but even you know his career went on Spann longer and uh you know John Nicks as well but yeah I mean they certainly are the you know and and even though you know John and Carlo were two of those who came to the country after the plane crash in 1961 to help rebuild skating but is it Frank even though he was already here Frank was part of that as well I mean Frank you know uh I think what his first Junior National Champion was in the late 60s um and um yeah so he was also part of that rebuilding process in the United States I mean who else who else has coached that long I mean uh but both Frank and John I mean one of the reasons that John stopped was the travel Frank when Frank stopped at 80 is he just didn’t want to travel anymore um and Carlo sadly know I was in in loan when Carlo passed away he would have probably been coaching for another 10 years um so you know and Carlo you know think of who Carlo had I mean uh Curry cousins Fleming and um and uh Hamill um so that’s you know that’s a pretty four gold medalists and um and John didn’t have a gold medalist but had lots and lots of medalists um so I mean those those would be comparables they all coached over a long period of time Carlo would certainly have coached when I I remember um I remember at that World Championships talking with him and he was still young and vibrant feeling so um yeah so well Frank is um um well I let me I should probably look this let me look one thing up here if you don’t mind because uh the message that Evan sent me I can’t think of that I think one thing with Frank that stands out is that he went under figures he went under the went under the IGS exactly Evans Irreplaceable is what Evans said and he’s right Frank is irreplaceable I mean yeah he exactly he won he won Under the 6.0 system at its height um he won when they dumped compulsory figures um and it so it became only two factors Mo and the artistic quote unquote artistic side of the sport became more significant and he won and he had skaters win under 6.0 yeah and the those are some those are pretty dram I mean people people forget how dramatic the change um of dropping compulsory figures was I mean it was a it made you know until until post the post Janet Lin Olympics when they when they added the short program and try and reduced the weight of the composer figures that was the critical element in winning an a world of Olympic medal so yeah I mean it isn’t when you think about and as Michelle told me for that story I did on his retirement you know he was he went from different skaters with in different eras with different mindsets I mean PE kids were kids grew up with different ways of looking at the M themselves and at the sport and at commitment and at whatever and whatever and he was able to adapt himself to both the technical changes of the sport and for lack of a better word the cultural changes of the people in the sport or the cultural changes that affected the people in the sport and that’s pretty rare yeah I spoke to tomarrow musina this weekend about Frank after he passed and she was saying that what impressed her the most was that when she was in the US coaching she went to the PSA and she was so impressed with how he was giving presentation after presentation year after year at the PSA and being so involved with developing young coaches you know for free and you know just out of you know love of the sport that that really impressed her you know more than Frank had intended to he until he got sick which was probably about 18 months ago I guess Franken intended to continue working with us figure skating on exactly that um which is what rapael arunan would like to find a way to do also it help develop new coaches um so yeah I mean Frank was to say Frank was giving of his time giving of his time and giving of his knowledge uh car Carlo and John Nicks were the same way to me all in every encounter I had with them they realized that that um they were partly there to be a great coach for an individual skater or and partly there to help promote the sport and they were very good at it well that’s that’s a lovely thing that Tamara said um uh yeah I mean think of it’s just amazing when you think about the eras of skating that that uh that Frank crossed as a coach and as a skater and as a coach I mean he was he wasn’t not a great skater obviously but he was a decent skater um he won didn’t he win a a junior medal back when yeah he win the bronze twice I was looking it up this weekend and then he did win sectionals or regionals as a senior and then you know turned professional in the ice fys and he was kind of pushed down in the ice fols with uh you know when Donald Jackson joined and he was skating in pairs and then that’s when he went off to coach you know also you know a lot of people thought well he’s an Eastern kid he’s going to stay in the east coast but he went to California you know think about where figure skating where the the Hub of figure skating moved from the east coast to California and Frank you know was one of those coaches um who was responsible I mean part of it a little bit also owed to Sonia Hy being in Hollywood and whatever and then pck was was the ice arena was built for her but then you know John Nicks had settled on the excuse me on the west coast and he was a factor in the sport for 40 odd years 50 years so yeah I mean Frank also created that you know think of the champ the last two men’s champions of uh trained on the West CO last two us man three three the last three I forget keep forgetting the most recent one Nathan Bryan and Evan all were trained by coaches on the west coast um and um that doesn’t which is kind of interesting and and Michelle and Sasha are the two best us women over the last what 40 years 30 years sure yeah it’s definitely um yeah the influence on the sport is definitely incredible and as IU Congress is going on you just wonder if anyone is ever going to be able to replace it and it doesn’t unfortunately it doesn’t seem like there’s going to be someone to really step into those shoes well it’s you know it’s a different sport in in a different time um and somebody I saw a comment some of the on one of the websites about about what’s going on at the Congress and somebody wisely said you know it’s not only figure skating that has this problems all of Olympic sports including track and field um have this problem of how do we get our popularity back you’re never going to get it back to what it was once but how do we get it back to a sustainable level um so that means that I don’t think anybody think about the number of TV interviews that Frank Carol did over his years with Michelle Quan Alone um uh not as many with Evan because Evan Michelle took the World by storm in age 15 um or even before that when she won in the the San Antonio elamo dome in the Olympic festival with with the largest crowd ever to watch a figure skating event but so he Frank was was speaking with and of Michelle for a long long time I don’t think you’re ever going to see that again um you know it also helped that Frank um is a native English speaker um and U not not that um not that Carlo had any problems with English but obviously Raph does and um you know I i’ I’ve learned to understand raph’s English but it’s it’s not easy he doesn’t do a lot of um a lot of TV interviews for that reason and he’s an incredibly funny uh you know I wish I could speak some Russian because he’s an incredibly funny guy so you’ve got the the most dominant coach in the Country Now by virtue of Nathan but that’s a pretty good by virtue of um is um you know is is not as comt aable in front of Television interviewers do speaking English you know he does more interviews with the Russian press than he does with most of the American Press and that’s 100% because of language fluency so the sports changed um um the cultural environment’s changed a lot of things have changed I mean you know Frank really you I’m trying to think of the musicals that I could imagine him as a star in I mean just that there was just such a dignity about him um uh and even when he was you know basically saying I can’t take Gracie Gold anymore he did it in a dignified way um so that’s that and that’s what I what I said earlier about modeling Behavior I think Frank Model Behavior for everybody whom he coached um uh you know Evan may have had a sure Michelle had a competitive rivalry with Tara but there was no there was there were no real barbs back and forth between Michelle Anda um Evan had a rivalry with Johnny and and um the Barb throwing was mainly Johnny’s but it wasn’t ever really really nasty you know they were two very very different people and two very very different skaters um and Linda fradiani has been obviously all these years uh you know it’s the same kind of classy person that that the other skaters and Dennis I didn’t know Dennis ten that well but what little bit I did talk to him he was Charming would be the best way to put so well thank you so much for coming on and and sharing so much about Frank you know I mean I’m gonna you know I’ve missed him over the last five years just not being at Nationals um I’ve missed my you know I would I would call from time to time to ask him what he was reading because Frank would always come into the arena with a book you know that bigger than an old Encyclopedia set um and I also remember I remember in in distinctly in uh in St Paul in 2016 walking into the arena before that competition began and and I said what do you expect from Gracie and he said if she does what she does in practice she’s going to blow this place apart and in she didn’t in the short made a silly mistake on the triple Luts in the short program but then in the long program she did she did blow the building apart so but you go back now and you think about the the more memorable performances we’ve seen in figure skating Dennis Ten’s artist in 2013 Michelle you could call you I like the 96 and some other people like the 98 the the L Angelica and all Evan winning the Olympic gold medal um Christoph some when Christopher Bowman was on I can’t remember one particular one but I mean Frank Carol students it’s pretty amazing that the there those would be high I think on anybody’s list of the best performances over the last 30 or 40 years and they were all his students and that that to me says all you need to know about Frank yeah and he also had a lot of Great Moments at National from the skaters that weren’t the big stars you think about Jonathan casar some of those years when he skated and you know just those people that make Nationals such a great event you know even the ones that aren’t winning but no I mean for sure um yeah as I said you you never we’ll never know what would have happened if Frank was still actually in the kiss and cry with Michelle at the 2002 Olympics we’ll never know what would have happened with Tiffany If Frank had stayed her coach longer um you know she went on she was fourth in the Olympic Games she looked like she was going to be just dominant and and of course she won Kansas City in 85 and that was kind of the end of it um for she started getting hurt and whatever it all happened but yeah Frank is one of those people I mean um I miss not seeing John Nicks at competitions and talking to him and I I missed not not seeing Frank at competitions probably because I’m up in that age I’m not quite John’s age raised yet but I wasn’t that much young I’m not that much younger than what Frank was when he passed away so they they they to me represented the heart and soul of figure skating um and so pum as as Evan L said some of that is irre and and with them gone some of it is Irreplaceable the sport will continue their contributions will continue to be pivotal and legendary in the sport but the person is gone and that’s very sad well while I have you here I have to ask do you expect those medals to really be awarded at the Paris Olympics no no okay I kept when I was joking with um with uh Evan and Maddie in Montreal I said you gota you gotta keep skating until 206 because that’s when you’re going to get your 20 your till 2026 because that’s when you’re going to get your 2022 Olympic medal no I don’t see how they can possibly give those medals out until all of the the U cases are resolved um so yeah I mean I know there’s a date now assigned to it but no I do not I remember literally jokingly saying after 20 after this whole thing happened that don’t count on them getting it before the 2026 Olympics and and so far sadly it looks like I’m right um unfortunately I think it’s true and maybe it’ll just make the Olympics bigger uh for the next time but it’s certainly going to be you know the us could get two gold medals at the same time at the next Olympics that’s right yeah it’s um and now of course the I don’t know what what happened today what they finally voted for or against uh the the with the sport some more and I think it it appears that the the big one of the big objections when when Fabio banti told me they were going to implement this immediately meaning next season I was stunned that they would they would make such a dramatic change one year before the Olympic Games but maybe they will they they don’t they’re not willing to take the big big step which is if you want to dramatically change a sport you’re going to have to dramatically change the sport and whether or not even what I’m saying is to put a strict limit on jumps and really emphasized the artistic skating and is that a good thing or a bad thing I’m not sure I mean you still mean through all those years when hanu was doing all those jumps and at the end of Nathan’s career when he was doing all those jumps there was still a lot of artistic quality in their skating so you can do both but yeah the hanu and the Nathan Chens and the Javier Fernandez’s and and the Dennis 10’s and Patrick Shan at his best they could do those things but a lot of other people can’t yeah yeah I think it’ll be interesting I I think it’s a worthwhile experiment to try uh I don’t think from what I have heard I was talking to Sandra bzik you know I don’t think it makes that big of a difference in the choreography of the programs but it’ll be uh interesting to see you know one jump I mean you know how much does one jump affect you know if you fall it has a different kind of effect but how much time does it take to set up one jump not and and execute the jump It’s not that much so you’re you’re um you know you’re you’re you’re not saving that much time to to do a lot more Artis things that’s what I’m trying to say um you you’d have to add go back and add 15 more seconds to the program with one less jump and then you could have people you know you could have somebody hold a spiral for 12 seconds as opposed to holding the spiral for long enough to let people know that it’s a spiral and then shifting your position to something else yes I agree the one thing they did say was that they want to have a docu series about the sport hopefully it’s one of the Netflix ones that’s been so successful with uh you know golf or tennis or you know uh you know racing uh you know that have been really um attention grabbing and building Personalities in those Sports because I think that’s what’s missing you know having a coach like Frank who’s a personality year after year after year you know those recognizable faces I think are really important yeah I mean that would you know the the comparison there I think might be a little bit to motor racing in that you know Formula 1 is still a foreign sport to 99% of the United States um and yet people start a following it because they you want all of a sudden you interested in the people figure skating is not most people don’t understand it but it’s not it’s something we’re accustomed to but we still still because you don’t nobody really gets into the personalities of the skaters um the any anything any attempt to publicize people would be a good thing um you know there’s a lot of interesting people with interesting stories I mean you know everybody always thought figure skating is a wide upper class Sport and you know think of Peggy and neither Peggy nor Carol Heist for instance were white upper class kids so and and neither Brian bana was not a white upper class kid Nathan Chan was clearly not is Asian-American not wealthy family kid so I mean that would just to create a new image for figure skating and maybe to show people how incredibly difficult it is because that’s what most people don’t understand they’ve gotten on a pair of skates and they think well I can skate across the rink um you know and I have been since the very beginning when I started going to practices of skaters I was writing about I would be a struck by a the the um impact on legs when they landed because sometimes it would sound like a gunshot going off and and B just on the difficulty of what it is to do and you know and three and C to do it basically non-stop for four minutes I mean hockey players are great skaters some of them some of them are very good skaters but they’re on and off the ice for in you know 40 seconds 30 5 Seconds try doing that for four minutes uh it it’s it’s amazing to me that’s one of the things I Mo most appreciate about the sport having covered it all these years is that how damn difficult it is well thank you so much for coming on and hopefully we’ll have a lot to talk about with this coming season I think it’s going to be a lot’s going to happen over the next couple of months that are going yeah it’s G it’s cool to have the the World Championships back in the United States again in a place where they will be supported um uh Montreal actually I thought was a very well supported event the US championships in Columbus they did the local organizing committee showed what you can do to get people interested in so hopefully Witchita which for which this is a singular event will be able to do the same thing um you know there’s no question any sport if um a crowd in the building I don’t know whether you’re watching any of of Welcome to rexam where they were the most recent about the soccer team in Wales the most recent the most recent one the most recent episodes was the adding 2500 seats to the stadium to create this uproar and and there’s no there’s nothing like a a crowd involvement to make you feel you’re seeing something special and then when you really do see something special it’s twice as special so um you know Rudy gindo in San Jose in 1996 that’s the as good an example as I can give you um of what it means when when there’s a passionate passionate crowd U uh at an event so hopefully yeah hopefully that’ll be good and it’ll lead to an Olympics in um in uh Italy with with with or without the Russians I still don’t think they’re going to be back what do you think I don’t think they’re going to be back at this point and it seems like they’ve resigned to not being back at this yeah it does I mean you know it’s easy to to throw lump everybody into the same Bunch because we don’t like Terry’s tactics and and um whatever but you know you also have do have to feel bad for some of these athletes who are being deprived of a chance to compete and who have given a lot of their lives to this and uh and a whole generation is going to get lost now um the ones who were 15 16 are are going to get lost so you you know would I like to see them back it’s more important to me to see them end the war in Ukraine so before before we see them back um but you know I don’t have this this um knee-jerk anti-russian feeling um that a lot of people do have now yeah I think that the sport has certainly lost some of you know I mean you talk about adding 2500 seats you think about if you you know eliminate 10 big personalities from the sport what it does to a sport you know there weren’t 10 new personalities to fill that void and I think ex exactly I mean you know uh and and they’d be interesting enough the Russians because there are so many opportunities for them still to put on skates and make money doing it their real personalities are coming out even more zaga medva um uh well tokisha always had a very open personality um so yeah I mean it’s um you do need personalities you do need rivalries you do need people to make the assumption that they were doping everybody is is wrong um we have there has been one positive doping test does that mean that everybody else was doped no does it mean that everybody else wasn’t doped no it also that’s also not true but you know you got to give people the benefit of the doubt and and um you know I think of all and I think you talk just talked to tomorrow mosina I I talk whatever you want to call it with there with text messages with with uh Alexi mishan from time to time you know they’re think of what they’ve done to the sport for the sport um uh so yeah I mean I’d like to see them back particularly as longar and and Alexi Mission no are no longer spring chickens either as uh as he as Mission said a penko when I got him was a scrawny green chicken um and it’ be nice to see them to see them again behind the barriers uh in competition before their careers end so but number one is number one the the the the um unprovoked invasion of Ukraine is horrific and that needs to be considered before everything else yeah and unfortunately in skating there’s no way for those athletes to really be considered neutral based on the funding so it’s it’s it’s complicated you know and I think it’s for road back they go to another country which the the Russians are trying to crack down on or or and and also wouldn’t mean the same I mean if um you know if you took oh I’m trying to think of who the the let’s just say that that um Vala came back and went to skate for Georgia for instance it wouldn’t be the same thing it wouldn’t have the same Aura um by the way I don’t think Val is coming back so at least she’s tried to go on I’ll give her credit for that um yeah I I think it’s it’s you know without Russians in pairs it’s just you know really decimated that discipline there’s really the lack of depth it’s it was just hard to watch I think at at the World Championships you know and even know they they don’t dominate dance anymore but they certainly add high quality teams to the event so um anyway Dave it’s a pleasure to talk to you have a good summer yes since it’s figure skating there’s always something going on sadly U very sad occasion but but I I’m very grateful to talk about Frank who who meant a lot to the sport whom I considered a friend and a mentor um and just a good all-around human being thank you so much all right