Senna & the Art of F1 Storytelling – The James Allen on F1 Podcast

This month the F1 world is celebrating Ayrton Senna, the three-time world champion who died 30 years ago.

For many lovers of the sport, he remains the greatest driver of all time. His story and passionate, intense character are captured in the 2010 documentary Senna, a movie that crossed F1 over to mainstream entertainment audiences. This wasn’t a film about cars and race results. It was about a human being.

Without the Senna movie would Drive to Survive have been the crossover hit it has been? And would F1 have the fanbase it has today? In our main feature interview, the writer & producer of Senna, Manish Pandey gives us his take. Senna’s niece Bianca gives the family’s point of view and reveals how over 36 million children in Brazil have been given educational support by the Ayrton Senna Institute.

Joining James to discuss all things Senna are Autosport Editor-in-Chief Rebecca Clancy and Brazilian journalist Julianne Cerasoli. They also touch on the bombshell story that Adrian Newey, the designer of the last F1 car Senna raced, is to leave Red Bull at the end of the season.

Get in touch with the show by emailing: jamesallenonf1@motorsport.com

0:00 Senna & the Art of F1 Storytelling
3:18 Adrian Newey to Leave Red Bull
12:11 Interview with Manish Pandey
36:22 Senna’s Legacy
47:19 Interview with Bianca Senna
55:51 The Senna Institute’s Impact

#f1 #senna #jamesallen

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formula 1’s Paddock is just full of Velociraptors in dinner suits it’s all about the way you look about total ruthlessness can that make for great drama you bad hello and welcome to the James Allen on F1 podcast now this month the Formula 1 world is celebrating the great Brazilian Formula 1 Champion aeran Senna who died 30 years ago for many lovers of the sport myself included he remains the greatest driver of all time his story and his passionate intense character are captured in the 2010 documentary movie Senna a film that really crossed Formula 1 over into mainstream entertainment audiences this wasn’t a film about racing cars and race results this was a film about a human being so without the Senna movie would drive to survive have been the crossover hit it’s been and would Formula 1 have the fan base it has today we’re going to talk a little bit later on to the writer and producer of senna manag pandai with me in the studio we have Rebecca Clancy editor and chief of Autosport hi Rea how you doing hi James thanks very much for having me I’m very hot currently as we’re recording this in Miami indeed it’s not we’re not used to this kind of temperature no we are not we’ve had a terrible spring so far in the UK from a British winter but Julian sasoli will be more used to it because she is a freelance journalist from Brazil with over 13 years experience at the front line of Formula 1 journalism bonda Julian Bond James thanks for having me here I would if I wasn’t living in the UK for 80 years now so I’m suffering I’m we’re on the same boat here so tell me what does Aton Santa mean to you and to s for me now he’s an example of self-improvement of always pushing really hard pushing the boundaries he wasn’t a perfect man he was a very human man I think that’s part of the reason why we’re still talking about him uh until today because he had his flaws but he was just trying to do the best he could and bring in the sport brought to a more of a human side I think he was the ultimate Storyteller of F1 because he can do a very good poll lap but you can do a very good poll lap and then say you’re speaking to God so I think that’s part of the reason why we’re still talking about him and why he’s so loved in Brazil and he means so much for for all of us and me personally yeah I think you can’t understate just how important Senna was to Formula 1 in life he changed the way drivers approached the sport in nutrition and exercise on the mental side as well in death the amount of work that went into the safety side of Formula 1 that still continues now and a lot of that came about because of that accident that senena had and obviously the day before Rand ratzenberger as well he is so important he’s almost one of those first drivers that really transcended the sport everyone loved him as Julian said he wasn’t perfect but he was a perfectionist the detail that he went into and how he managed to get get his personality across from even inside the cockpit you know the helmet’s almost very constrictive but he managed to get across who he was the love of the sport and he died doing what he loved and and I think a lot of people are just so fascinated by him for all those reasons so Sena very much front of Mind in this podcast but before we delve into his story there has been a seismic news event in Formula 1 in the last week involving someone who also ironic features prominently in Sena story at the very end Adrien Nei the greatest racing car designer of all time has quit Red Bull Racing fora 1’s dominant team and is available on the market from as early as spring 2025 Rebecca give us your explainer uh of of why this has happened and what you think it’s going to mean for the competitive balance of Formula 1 well why is certainly the question um yeah as you say Adrian Nei widely regarded as the best car designer in Formula 1 has been with Red Bull since almost the very start absolutely Key Personnel in terms of Designing these cars which have won all the Championships the dominance that we are seeing from Red Bull and match of staffen now he announced well actually it started to leak shall I say as it always does in Formula 1 with the rumors and the gossip started to leak last week just before the Miami Grand Prix that he was looking to leave he was having conversations and then Red Bull confirmed it just earlier this week ahead of the gr Prix that he was departing as you say James he is due to leave at the start of 2025 and his departure comes in the wake of the Christian Horner controversy and I don’t think we can talk about ne’s departure without addressing what’s happening with Herer at the moment um if you’re not up to date with this um haa has been accused by a female colleague of coercive Behavior inappropriate behavior and he was Horna was cleared by a Red Bull independent they say investigation he has denied all wrongdoing but there are undoubtedly huge power plays going on in Red Bull at the moment we’re seeing it between helmet Marco who is the uh I don’t know how you describe him anymore the driver director director driver development advisor senior everything um so helmet marker on one side with yosa stappen the father of Max fappen and then on the other side we have haer and this these allegations which are incredibly serious and are still actually rumbling on in the background and there are plenty of legal reasons why we can’t discuss that more um that is still happening this power play is still happening and Adrian Nei from what I understand he just wants to design cars and so he has taken the decision now to at 65 years old I think he is now to step away and he will still stay with Red Bull for the rest of the season he will be attending a few races the team have confirmed more importantly on the commercial side he will still be involved in the development of the RB 17 the road car which will obviously have all of the Formula 1 technology that’s been a huge project for Red Bull I think they’re only making 50 of those cars um and having Adrian Nei attached to that is obviously a key selling point for Red Bull but he is on the market and I don’t think it would be an understatement to say the teams are probably clamoring over him for him more than any other driver uh you talk about seismic events we had one obviously earlier in the year with leis Hamilton announcing that he was leaving Mercedes to go to Ferrari the big punt at the moment is that Adrian Nei will be following Lewis Hamilton to Ferrari we know there have been conversations going on between Fred fer the Ferrari team principal and Adrien Nei we know also that ason Martin who are owned by Canadian billionaire Lawrence stroll are throwing money at Adrian neui to come and get him to move well just up the road actually Aston Marson based in silverston not far from Red Bull in Milton keing so there is a lot of interest in Adrian neui very understandably it will be fascinating to see what he does will he actually decide to retire I somehow doubt it the man is a workaholic um I suspect we will see him pop up somewhere else and the really interesting thing in terms of what that means for Formula 1 is that he will be joining a team in 2025 and any team in that position at the start of that year will be looking ahead to 2026 the new regulations are coming in and yes they will be quite far down the line with the development of that 2026 car but someone like Adrian Nei he and it isn’t you know I’m not over stretchering to call the man a genius he will be able to walk in and say that’s wrong that’s wrong do this do that and that team whoever hires him will immediately have the advantage and of course he’ll also have a pretty decent idea of what Red Bull’s 2026 car is going to look like as well it’s very unusual someone as senior as this with so much knowledge in his head has such a short gardening leave but there’s obviously in the back ground legal reasons why he’s been able to sort of uh to shortcut that Julian I mean the guy’s unbelievable he he’s won 25 World Championships drivers and Constructors I mean Head and Shoulders ahead of anybody else I mean what do you make of this story you know his his motives for reason his motives for leaving and and and and what happens next I think re Rebecca’s touched on a very important thing which is all the power struggle that’s going on in at Red Bull the stuff that we canot talk about and I think Adrian is talking about it in the best possible way by leaving there’s nothing else he can do about it but also there was other stuff in that we know from the the background Christian Horner coming in the last few months talking about P Vash talking about the other people in the technical department and saying oh Adrian you all talk about Adrian but Adrian is not actually hands on on the car anymore which is true but Adrian has been doing at Red for a few years now is just getting there going with a silver bullet and saying okay this you this is a waste of time you have to go here so for this regulations for example he said okay I’m going to focus on the suspension and then everybody tried to copy the red buo suspension because that’s what that was the key to make the car as low as they could run in every single circuit that that made them big so although he’s not actually designing the car anymore he makes them save time and you when you have budget cap when you have the ARA restrictions the percentage of of era development that every team can have that makes a huge difference so it is a huge asset for whoever whoever hires him and I can resonate what what was going on between Lewis and Mercedes Lew getting just two-year deal and feeling okay I’m ready to be replaced here and maybe something on those terms was happening with Adrian as well thinking okay I’m being put a little bit aside so I I still have this flame and I still want to do something in Formula 1 it’s interesting because this isn’t the first time this has happened there’ve been many occasions when Ferrari have tried to get Nei multiple multiple times and you know he’s always said no and I think maybe 15 20 years ago it was because he had a young family based in the UK he didn’t want to go and live in Italy I think his first wife didn’t want to live in Italy he’s remarried he’s 65 years old he’s got enough money to buy his own Caribbean island he doesn’t need to do anything as you say he is a workaholic I think if he was sitting on a Caribbean Island you know he’d just still be sketching racing cars and then just be like schumac he just couldn’t cope with the fact he wasn’t competing anymore and I don’t think I’ve ever met a more competitive person than Adrian yui so I just think that there is a prevailing wind here that could make the Ferrari thing happen where in previous three four times they’ve tried the circumstances were wrong maybe the opportunity to work for Lewis One Last Dance and at the end of the day it’s so exciting for Formula 1 isn’t it you know the Lewis in a Ferrari is exciting enough but Lewis in an Adrian new he designed Ferrari Formula 1 benefits When Ferrari is competitive that’s what happened with Shaka going there in the mid90s it feels to me a bit like a bit like the mid90s again so interesting to think to hear that you think that that Ferrari is on the agenda as well but by a weird twist of fate anyway NE he was the designer of the last F1 car that Center raced 30 years ago for many people the award-winning documentary movie center provided a window into the great man and his story in an arc that spanned 10 years from his F1 debut in 1984 to his death at IMA now the writer and producer of Center is Manish Pand he’s since made Grand Prix driver series on um on McLaren for Amazon he he made the Bernie Eon docky series Lucky and he’s currently shooting a film on the former Ferrari boss Luca deont Zolo who tried to hire Sena just before uh he died at IMA and the story of their meeting is in that film Manish told me when we we uh we met I went to see him to to draw the connection between sener and F1 as we know it today I hope you enjoy our chat Manish welcome to the podcast thanks so much for joining us let’s start by looking at what you found most compelling about an and Senna the man and also his story I I think the first qualifiers I never actually met him I uh you know Silverstone 1992 was the closest I ever got to him it was about 3 meters away when um his car stopped I like to fool myself that he looked into my eyes as he walked past and went like that but I don’t think he did I think he was heading towards McLaren um you and I actually go quite far back on Sena so uh I think you probably know the answer to this better than most people but um I got a chance to speak at the premere in Brazil and I got to say something that was very very close to my heart about who he was and why as a boy I would be so in love with a character like that and I think you know it comes from somewhere quite political and a little bit dark in Britain’s history I think you know growing up in Britain in the 70s and 80s nobody would imagine that there’d be a a prime minister of Indian origin 40 years later or Home Secretary or forget about two you know it was quite a tough place to be a foreigner and I always felt his journey to some extent you know you’re egotistical as the teenager his journey reflected mine in a you know in a massively Amplified way but you had this Outsider he came into a very European sport where kind of you know everyone knows the best I remember before he made it into Formula 1 um they made a big deal of the fact they called him Harry cuz they couldn’t pronounce Aon and I think there is it it summed up beautifully and I love the idea of this guy being better at qualifying better at racing better in the wet better in the dry but also better technically than kind of his quote unquote European counterparts even though he’s genetically European this idea that this sort of Johnny Foreigner from Latin America where quote unquote their blood must boil hot and you know they can’t possibly be thinking I think if you’re growing up in a country where you’ve got quite hardcore football hooliganism you know the terrorists are shouting things that you would never say now not in this country to see somebody like that just kind of emerge how can he not be your hero you know that’s really interesting that’s a very interesting perspective on it I mean you worked so hard didn’t you over many years to get the sener family on board get them fully bought into the to the project and I wonder what did you what did you observe when you actually did this you know you launched it of course they were there at the um at the premier in Brazil I remember that I was there myself very lucky to be there what did You observe of their reaction to the way the world responded to to eton’s story through your film that’s a it’s a really pointed question I think Senna existed as a kind of Ideal for them after his death and that death wasn’t I you know in a previous life I was a doctor and there are two ways people basically die it’s an expected death somebody’s older whatever you have sudden death and I think sudden death robs you of the ability to really reflect on your emotions reflect on how you’re going to get through all of this and I think we have to remember that the the movie actually came out in 2010 so it came out 16 years after he died and the thing about movies the thing about great television the thing about storytelling like this is if if it’s done properly it’s very very emotional if it’s very emotional it’s very evocative and I think what we did was sounds it’s not meant to sound morish I think we bought him back to life but I think what was really painful for them is we killed him again and I think that’s it was impossible to explain how it was I I remember very brutal episode actually um the family obviously had a lot to do with the film you know they really helped us they really supported us they backed us they trusted us and um we promised we’d show them as soon as we had a cut good enough and the only time to do it weirdly was around the Monaco Grand Prix 2010 which is the C film festival and because working title Universal at Finance the film they have access to Cinemas but the only Cinema that was available was available between 12 and 2 on uh I think Bruno was at the race then so it was on a Friday it’s Thursday or Friday of the Monaco Grand Prix and um you go in there I sat between Vivian Senna his sister and Bianca Senna his niece and we were watching and you could feel they were sucked in and I remember probably shouldn’t say this but in the second Center Prost accident VI I think she actually made a fist you know there was a kind of visceral moment and it’s you know it’s part of being dragged into the pantomime of Cinema but the brutal bit and I think the most reflective bit was when we got to imil I whispered to Bianca I think we should swap seats and she just knew she sat there she put her hands into her mom’s hands and sitting next to them it was quite a thing to see and it was awful it was really traumatic and I we had to do it we had to show his death um but I wasn’t quite prepared for how how emotional how viscal how painful it would be because it’s important to remember that neither of them were there at IMA and you’re also seeing your brother stroke Uncle and he’s 35 ft his face is 35 ft sort of tall or whatever and um so you’re right inside his mind you’re right inside the garage you’re not you’re not peripheral and suddenly we were turfed out at 2:00 in the afternoon so you’re now in bright light on the street in can and you’re just hugging and you know I it was incredibly emotional but you know she said we did it right and you know you can’t you can’t do more than that you really can’t well as you well remember I had a similar reaction you showed me an early cut of it and I remember we got to the last scene where he’s kind of cutting some food in a tent and he’s cting and he looks up at the camera and I completely lost it at that point I didn’t realize my emotions were that close to the surface but you know having known him a bit and obviously having seen it but that just that why that moment made me so upset I don’t know was as if that really wanted to end it with that look cuz he felt that what you shouldn’t forget is that this was you know this wasn’t just a 34 year old Superstar driver this was actually in some ways was just a 19yearold boy you know that’s kind of what he was in his soul yeah it was it was brilliant that look it’s a one of the best moments so you know 30 years on from sena’s Death you and I went on the 20th anniversary to see who would turn up at IM on the 1st of May and it was an extraordinary day both Ferrari drivers turned up completely unexpectedly wearing Alonzo and reiken and wearing Blazers and ties I mean what and there was all sorts going on it was it was a very interesting thing that was Stephan O’s hijacking of the 20th anniversary of it became a Ferrari event it was really strange genius it was really strange I was working for BBC at the time and we made a really interesting little program about it which um people can dig out from the archives but look I mean 30 years on from now you’ve got we’ll come on to talk about how formula one’s changed and particularly these new audiences that Liberty Media have brought in to the sport younger more female Etc but I mean what does senna represent now those those guys are kind of finding him through YouTube they’re they’re getting really into their fandom of the sport and they’re going backwards and you know that they’re finding it I can see that I get messages from people who are finding things I did you know from from 10 15 years ago and so you can they’re soon locking on to this character Aon Senna but what do you think globally he he represents today in from Formula 1 Point VI I genuinely think that in some ways he’s the last Real Deal driver if that makes sense it was um he was so complete not just as a driver but as a human being and I I I once said this um the thing about Seno was you could have made that film about anyone else with pretty much the same beats but there’s something about him that makes you feel and that authenticity is you you you can’t fake it with a camera angle you can’t fake it with a sound bite you you just can’t he he didn’t perform that’s who he was and that’s something that we felt and I remember you know I spent so much time looking at archive and there’s a consistency in the archive with him I mean one of the early scenes is Sena in a Williams it’s his first ever Formula 1 drive now he’s got a helmet on how do you emote with a helmet on the visor up it’s a side angle so you can’t see his face but what does he say you can almost feel the tears in his eyes as he prays and says I’m going to thank God he’s given me this amazing gift young people are no different today the young people of 30 years ago you know I think we’re all looking we’re looking for Heroes and it’s interesting what you say about because also we’re looking for authenticity I think that younger generation today obviously we’ve both got sons who are of that that gen Zed group and authenticity is everything for them anything that’s phony or fake in a in a social media world is out isn’t it and and Senna had Senna had that he definitely had it I think I remember asking Bruno Senna once what he thought his uncle’s greatest quality was and he said commitment he said he thought that what made Senna special as a racing driver and everything in life was commitment he was all in and that obviously he paid the ultimate price for that but I thought that was quite int intensity is the other word I would use but that’s a very pointed thing to say cuz I think I think that’s exactly it you kind of the number of time people say oh it’s fixed or it’s contrived or whatever there’s a guy who paid the ultimate price for the thing that he wanted to do in his life and it just doesn’t get any more authentic than that it’s a double underline isn’t it at the end so everything you watched before that you realize he meant it all of that is meant you know and it’s a it’s a beautiful thing and so I said you can turn this on in 20 years time and it’ll be exactly the same thing you know sen will be but my strange thing now is I I sort of look at him I saw the film for the first time in 10 years last week and I was shocked as to how young he is when we start the story but how old he looks by the time you get to the end I mean there are you see the bags under his eyes you see the Crow’s feed and that’s 10 years in Formula 1 it’s 30 years in any other job it really G it was at the time for sure yeah they definitely age don’t they no question about that I mean so I’ve got this Theory because having sat through a lot of not sat through having enjoyed a lot of the premieres and also s sat got sat through different screenings of it with different audiences the Santa movie back you know whatever it was 10 12 years ago what struck me immediately was how the film crossed over and you there was there was you know women in the audience loving it who knew nothing about Sena at all um its success in terms of the box office the awards that you won you know ba Sundance Awards tremendously successful film the times I think it was recently said it’s the fourth it’s in the top four uh best sports films ever made I mean that’s incredible fantastic um many congratulations on that Accolade but for me it was its crossover quality this wasn’t a motor racing film you didn’t need to be a motoracing buff to watch Senna and I think that was the gateway to to drive to survive that came since then so I mean I don’t know if you agree with that I wonder whether drive to survive would have worked or would have been what it is and would have had the appeal that it’s had were it not for what you did um with Senna and obviously one of The Producers was involved with the drive survive so there is a there is a a DNA thread there do you agree with me and and what is that quality then that you captured there that they’ve got and drive to survive I think Sports documentaries before then with the exception probably of when we were kings were about scores were about the game about the match and I I think actually as a team I thought we were a really good little team on Sena because what we had is we had James is very commercial he could always see it in a very Commercial Way and James is kind of you know the the force behind D to survive Al very very artistic always looking for the drama and beautiful eye you know can just go that’s a beautiful shot that’s a rubbish shot and I always felt I had that emotion and if you like authenticity I wanted things to be accurate you were the Storyteller amongst them yeah in terms of I mean I think we were all storytellers but I think with me it was very particular like look we can’t do that that’s cheating we can’t move that scene there you know and doing that and I think that what you have with sen I mean why it crosses over I think is him and and he makes you feel and if you’re a young boy he’s a hero if you’re an older woman he’s your son if you’re a young girl that is your lover and by playing him and not the sport so very simple example if you were to ask people today in Formula 1 give me Sen’s top five moments I can bet you 90% of them would say first lap of Donnington that’s what I would put first well it’s not in the film we have one frame of it in the film and trust me we tried really hard I remember sort of going oh but we got to get it we got to get it but actually I remember even in the original treat there was a very simple line saying despite his genius he was able to achieve very little in 1992 and 1993 so if you understand what I’ve just said there there’s a great sporting moment in what’s supposed to be a great sporting documentary possibly his greatest sporting moment but it’s not in you can see why it crosses over because we refuse to make it about the sport we always made it about the man and what happens is in that year you know 1991 he’s on top of the world and what we had to show you was in the next two years despite not losing any of his skill his magic he was emotionally at the bottom of the world yes he felt great after winning at Donington but would he have traded that in for a Williams Drive in a minute well he offered a drive for nothing later that year didn’t he that’s the point and that’s the story and I think our storytelling in that way was really clever because we weren’t going to be slaves to the greatest goal ever scored or the greatest opening lap we were going to be SL to the emotional kind of reference point of our character at any point in the movie and I remember I just arguing with ASF about 1989 uh for me the politics I still when I watch a film I still kind of feel it comes from nowhere suddenly you know they’re kind of arguing and of course we know that the official story is it was about the broken agreement at IMA and the opening lap and who goes in first and who goes in second and all the rest of it but but you know it works it works without getting into all of that politics because there’s plenty of politics he said that follows so you’re telling an emotional truth even if you can’t always tell the absolute typ written truth whether it’s in the car or out so I mean people have tried to do drive to survives and failed you know even Moto GP didn’t really work very well there’ve been some success been cycling bit of golf bit of tennis whatever it may be other people have tried to make sort of sports documentary films you know not necessarily landed like Sena not sitting there in the top four alltime films what is it about Formula 1 that lends itself do you think particularly to to this sort of Storytelling is it just because the people that practice it whether they’re the drivers or or even the team bosses that cast of characters that we’ve got there’s just some crazy int intensity about I mean I grew up as son of a racing driver I I know what that fire that burns in in a racing driver is like and you can see it when it goes out in their eyes when they when it’s time to retire and it’s not there anymore you know but is that what it is or what what I mean coming in from the outside as you did you know what what what is it about F1 I think it’s show business I think it’s genuinely show business and it has been for a long time and I think Bernie spotted that very very early and I think that whatever you say about the technical qualifications or the commercial qualifications of people whether they’re great lawyers there’s something of the showman in Formula 1 people or show woman and I think you see that you go into a paddock everyone’s looking at everyone else everyone notices what everyone’s doing if somebody’s slightly changed their clothes or moved teams there’s lots of gossip but it I think people understand presentation in Formula 1 in a way they don’t I mean I’ve been around motor GP I say something controversial I uh I my first ever Moto GP race was herth in I think it 2017 and it just blew my head off I don’t think I’d been to a a Formula 1 race that exciting in my life the atmosphere in the padic was slightly different it was a more villagey atmosphere everyone knew everyone I remember in fact the Yamaha guys had run out of mozzarella and they were all running to Ducati who gave them mozzarella so it has this beautiful quality of helping each other of of of of fostering you know each other’s teams healthy competition formula 1’s Paddock is just full of Velociraptors in din suits it’s all about the way you look about to ruthlessness can that make for great drama you bet because actually for all of the contrivance of Drive survive I think it does touch upon a reality quite a profound reality Toto competes with Christian when they’re on camera and it just reflects exactly what they’re doing behind scenes and I think that’s why it hits because again I think you are seeing you can’t sometimes tell the exact truth but you’re feeling the truth there because they’re competing interesting yeah yeah I think you’re probably right um so let’s bring it up to the present day then obviously you you know you made this the Lucky series about Bernie Eon that was on Discovery you’ve you’re working now though on a project which is very interesting I don’t know how much you can say about it but uh you’re making a series about the legendary boss of Ferrari Luca de mono the guy who put the dream team together ran Todd Ross brwn Rory burn Michael schumacker that basically wiped the floor with everybody in the late ’90s early 2000s um amazing guy I know him reasonably well um extremely animated very good uh very good communicator so tell us what can you tell us about that project and and when will we see it and so it’s a film um we’ decided to tell it as a film and um we will beginning shooting in Italy in June and uh been working with Luca on and off for two years to put this together I mean the these things are like oil tankers they just take forever to do but I hope it’s a very different piece to sen it’s a very different piece to to Lucky this is a story where you meet a man who’s ostensibly a farmer who’s also had a very big business career behind him in the last decade post Ferrari but I think the colel of the story is you’ve you’ve got a great Italian and he um he said something that never stopped resonating with me which is to understand Ferrari you have to understand Italy and to understand Italy I think you’ve got to hear that from a great Italian and his friends and you have to see him as a fish in water because what’s extraordinary about for me Italians is they have this ability to take these very simple ingredients and turn them through some magic into something that that you’re in love with you know Ferrari is a different car to anything else um a proper Pastor Pomodoro in Italy it’s something to do with their tomato their olive oil their garlic their pasta but it’s just magical isn’t it and I think that’s what our our story is about it’s about those amazing ingredients that only Italians have that you know to quote him he said about Ferrari he said we didn’t sell cars we sold dreams and I think that’s that the story it’s about this man who creates dreams and he is a very very special man incredibly intelligent don’t let that kind of good-look Deon Aire Italian facade fool you at all categorical brain and um and hopefully what we’ll do is we’ll get we’ll we’ll get some stories that you don’t really read about and I think the two really simple examples he was chosen by Enzo Ferrari in 1973 to go there he’ just done a postgraduate degree from Colombia in um international law after doing an undergraduate degree in law at Sapienza the Oxford of Italy very bright man gets a first class degree and then goes and spends a month at Marinello with the old man the Factory’s closed the Italians have gone and he’s there for 30 days day and night eating drinking listening to the old man just soaking up what Ferrari is and he’s the last in a way apart from Pierro the old man’s son link to that era and then he goes back to that company after the old man has died and the company’s failing they can’t sell cars they are a joke in Formula 1 I mean an absolute joke in Formula 1 and within five years Michael’s driving for the team they’re producing some of the starting to produce some of the best road cars that Journey’s beginning and by the time he leaves I mean you know it’s Ferrari and yeah yeah so it’s it’s it’s a beautiful story I think so I mean there’s so many things of course that montelo could tell you and so many stories and things but I guess as we’re talking about Senna in this podcast the famously was supposedly a meeting between the two of them sometime not long before Senna died is is that going to feature yeah definitely um I think it was uh the 28th so 30 years ago yesterday Senna had um a bunch of products that he’ launched as part of his his post racing Life future that was carara bike I think the mon graa pen and the ducatti motorbike when he had done with those launches he went to see Luca at his home and uh it’s it’s quite a spooky thing in his drawing room I mean s I sat in one of those chairs with him and discussed post Williams going to Ferrari and they talk contracts they talked broadly speaking you know when he thought he could come Luka even thought there was a possibility that um 95 would be you know there were certain certain Clauses that may or may not have worked out but they could certainly explore them but for 96 he wanted Sena and I think he would have gone and when can we see it yeah yeah um hoping that we’ll have it have all the post and everything done end of this year early next year fantastic can’t wait for that Manish thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us absolute pleasure thanks James so Julian what do you take out of that oh it was a billion sh congratulations for that it was the one thing that struck to me was when he was mentioning about not being uh from British family growing up in the UK and how he would see Santa as an example was someone just outside of the establishment trying to to win in in Formula One and feeling okay I’m I’m an outsider I’m an European and that’s something that is very strong for us because I I was I was talking early about him being a Storyteller he also promoted this story that Jah bastri which is someone who any Brazilian would hate absolutely hate because of the whole storytelling about him being very hard on Sena and Senna was always trying to make it look like and probably he was right by my experience in f one I think he was right that Brazilians are seen as people who are maybe a bit emotional and not to be taken seriously and he was there to prove a point so and many many times Senna even overreacted to some things that were done to him it was probably because of that and that is a connection that we we feel a lot because how this was interpreted in Brazil because it’s good to give you a background on how bad it was like to live in Brazil at that time I think it was the worst time in Brazil’s history to be uh a Brazilian inflation was over 1,000% a year in April 1990 I remember growing up it’s very faint memories but my dad would get his salary and we would travel 100 kilometers to buy food and to stock food as if it was war because then next day the food would have a different price and then the salary wouldn’t be as good so Senna was winning at that time when Brazil even the football was not doing well for Brazilians when the football is not doing well it just means that the country is going really downhill and but he was the one winning races so I think that’s why winning races and telling us you are a Brazilian I am a Brazilian and we can be at the top that was a message that was very strong for him and he still very strong until today even when Brazil world won the World Cup in 94 the players gave interviews recently saying we won it for him because he made us believe that we could win and so that was very important and he has to do with all this thing you are an outsider you are nor an European you go there and you beat them all but he was almost always a bit of an outsider wasn’t he in that sense that you’re talking about he was wronged as you mention and then he was always fighting the institution of F1 the FIA and do you think since Senna there have been other drivers that have used him as inspiration then as Outsiders because it’s so European or it used very certainly used to be very European in terms of the racing circuit from your perspective Julian do you see that a lot of Outsider drivers they’re not really Outsider obviously but just non-europeans I should say they use they kind of pin Center up and and because he fought so hard and that’s also another reason why he is still so relevant today I do uh I interviewed Paris about it recently and he pointed out that the most important for him is that Sena showed as a Latin America you can be winning in Formula One so there is that to the back in the background but I don’t see anybody capitalizing on it because they hav a one you had to you have to achieve something in order to claim that and I think the closest we can get to is actually Louis Hamilton who is a a massive iton Center fan and he understands what sen was standing for and he’s trying to do the same as well yeah Hamil absolutely considers himself to be just as much as an outsider doesn’t he for me the interview that you did James was what I took from it the film is superb and I’m not just saying that cuz you’ve done the interview from what Manish was saying there it’s just how raar it still is we’re having this conversation 30 years on from his death but certainly when you watch the film and even when you talk to people if you know lucky enough to be in the had I can talk to people who new center it’s like he was walking around yesterday almost it’s so fresh and that comment that Manish makes in the interview you we brought him back to life and then we killed them all over again and I remember the first time I watched the film actually and obviously you know the ending you know what’s going to happen and and still being in disbelief as you watch it and having conversations even now you you just think oh what could I do differently could I turn back time how could you change it and you still can’t actually get your head around the fact that Senna died during that race and I was reading a a good the other day and was talking about Sid Watkins and obviously he was the um head of medical used to be Silverstone and then brought in to cover the whole of Formula 1 and he was the doctor when Senna died and those two were very very close and and he described working on a and CER when they pulled him out of the car as you know working on your own child and it’s a very close niit Community Formula 1 and if anyone is in need everyone will come to your help and and it was really telling in that sense like listening to what said Watkins was saying but then Manish really put that on the screen how close it was how people felt about him and I remember being 10 years old in ’94 and I remember exactly where I was when I watched that race and I was with my brother in his bedroom watching on this tiny little TV and I can still think now how I felt when it happened and I and the confusion around it and and that interview just listening to it it really took me back there and how it feels and whenever you talk to anyone about Senna they are also in the same place you know if you’re old enough to remember and have watched the race back then it’s just how fresh his death is in everyone’s mind and and because he is so huge because he is so important to Formula 1 as we’ve discussed that film I mean there’s a reason it resonated outside of Formula 1 as well you know I mentioned earlier he died doing what he loves and he pushed himself to the absolute limit of what was capable and at times Beyond it he was he was magic his talent was was unbelievable how he drove the car how he felt it how he was so intuitive you you know you could drop him into any car room talking about how he moved to Williams it didn’t quite mesh with him at the very very start but he was such an amazing driver what he was managing to get out of that car and he just he almost defies belief somehow and and I know a lot of people say oh you know as time passes you remember it differently and perhaps he gets put on a pedestal but even at that time back in the ’90s he was a three-time world champion ion and obviously we’ll never know what he could have got on to win but certainly there would have been more more World Championships and and just listening to Manish there and um obviously he mentioned he never got to meet him but meeting the family and sitting in the uh in the screening with sena’s family watching it and just how they grabbed each other’s hand his sister and his niece they grabbed each other’s hands during certain incidents in the film and I think for a lot of people with sener you can you can almost feel it in yourself and and what he meant to you and it’s just it’s still so raw that’s what I can’t take away that’s what I take away from it it’s funny for me um I grew up in a racing family my father was a racing driver so as a kid I got used to the idea especially in the in the late 60s early 70s that some of his friends kind of never came around to the house again you know cuz they got killed racing cars and so I kind of perhaps I built a little bit of a protective shell but I was there at IM that weekend and I spoke to Senna I cherish my memories of speaking to Senna from 1991 onwards I did some interviews with him I spent time with him and uh it’s it’s one of the most special things I have that I had that experience to know him but but I spoke to him a couple of hours before um before before he got in the car on that race and he was really out of sorts you know rat Roland ratsenberg had been killed tragically the day before and you could see he was just he just wanted to be anywhere else in the world but but there right now and he kind of had this enormous burden on him and it was a kind of a spiritual thing if you I’m not a spiritual person but if I was I probably would have got quite overwhelmed with that and um it’s all wrapped up in the narrative and I think just to close on on this on this topic I mean you mentioned earlier on I think a brilliant point that Senna was a fabulous Storyteller of his own story and that brings me to this this question that I put to Manish that you know part of why sen was such a success is because the story is so compelling they told it brilliantly they kept it in the moment there was no modern day older looking Ron Dennis or older looking Alan Prost everybody was the age they were at the time so it’s it’s it’s captured for ever in time but I do Wonder The Narrative of that just briefly drive to survive I don’t think drive to survive happens without Senna having broken through that that that that glass wall if you like of of how sport storytelling in our sport should be what do you think it’s a good point I had never thought about it before listening to the the interview the thing with with s is really special because he was this guy who could connect to anyone you don’t have to like formula one to like Senna it there was something about what manage says about his look it was an intensity there authentic authenticity there as well that anyone could feel what he was feeling that people who don’t know what ti grips uh or angines or whatever but you could feel that he was giving everything so s is really special in that sense but also Senna taught us in a way that that we could look at everyone in Formula 1 as individuals telling their own stories and these stories are interesting if you dig deep they are very this very competitive people just absolutely going for it traveling all over the world this is very interesting and it takes a certain type of human being to do even what we do but especially what they do at the track there’s there’s a lot that goes on um around this this formula one thing that attracts very strong characters and we very strong characters who have the good stories and we good stories you don’t need tires in sector tree I completely agree with you and it’s great how the today’s Formula 1 drivers have the Smart Ones have worked out they can do they can tell their own story of course they can’t control some of the bad things that happened to them on the track but that’s another story altogether so listen we’ve we’ve heard about senna’s Legacy in Formula 1 but what about his broader Legacy the Instituto aan Senna was set up in 1994 by the family with a mission to provide opportunities for Brazilian children through education as it celebrates its 30th Anniversary The Institute can be proud of having helped over 36 million yes that’s right 36 million children in Brazil I got online with Bianca Senna eron’s niece to reflect on this Legacy Bianca thank you so much for joining us no thank you it was is a pleasure to be here especially during the celebrations of the thir years’s Legacy of eron eron’s Life eron’s values and also the Institute tell us a little bit Bianca what he was like as as an uncle as a man and the impact he had in Brazil Way Beyond sport eron for me I was 15 no 14 years old when he passed he was for me my uncle and he was a great role model as someone that always was always you know pushing for whatever he was doing you know even if was a jet ski ride he was always trying to you know make it perfect look at the details of the the engine and making different changes on it to make sure that you know it was perfect and he was the one you know um teaching me how important is to do everything with passion heart and especially with the best that you can so for me that’s that’s my you biggest memory of him like being someone that is always you know really truthful to his values and someone that is always pushing to make sure that the he’s doing the best that he could in every situation and that obviously really resonated with the Brazilian people he was a global Superstar during his lifetime but he’s still as famous today in a way as as he was back then is is my understanding is that right yeah Eran is it continues to be a a symbol of um of the Brazilian people because he showed the Brazilian people that even though we were in a most of the times in a very difficult situation you are able to overcome those you know this those challenges and and become you know a winner and I think that’s what you know he represents for the country and I think that’s what he represents for everyone because I think everyone H um is born with a potential and this potential that’s something that you have within you is what makes you so special and to be truthful to this potential and make sure that you know you use all the tools and and the and the the ways that you can to develop develop that potential that’s what eron showed everyone that is the important thing in life no matter the challenges that you have and I think that’s that’s what you know this is the DNA that we carry through the Institute and that we carry uh through the the sen brand and sing a brand which is our cartoon which is like you know we believe that everyone has their own potential and we want to make sure that we help each one develop that potential through their lives that’s fantastic and obviously that was the the founding mission of the of the Institute can you tell us a little bit more in detail about the kind of work that it’s done give us some examples so when eron H was was in ’94 on the vacation still he spoke to my mother because he wanted to do something special for Brazil you know to make sure that as he h was able to you know fulfill his potential and become what he was made to be that all the children and youngesters in Brazil could do the same in Brazil we have a specific situation uh and challenge that you know most of the children and youngesters are in public schools so that means that you know you have to have a very strong H public school system and quality to make sure that all the children are learning unfortunately this is not the case in Brazil like from every 100 uh children that starts uh K12 only 10 finish and from this only five has the the right Proficiency in Portuguese and three actually one in math so this is like a big H challenge that we face in Brazil and that’s why we decided to work towards uh finding uh the best Technologies social and educational Technologies to make sure that the children learn on the you know in their right age and properly until they finish you know uh K4 uh K2 now you run the Senna brand as I mentioned you see it you know Grand Prix circuits all over the world the famous sen s you mentioned the cartoon and all the other licenses that you do can you tell us a little bit about the the scale of that business and also how that works with the Institute from a funding point of view so uh The Institute like everything that we do through our life license through our the image of eron and the licensing agreements that we have through Sena and senia part of it always goes through the foundation this is the way that we since the beginning started you know funding the foundation because the foundation doesn’t get any money from public sector so basically everything that we invest is through private sector either by us as uh you know the brands or by other companies that want to make a difference uh in in the Brazilian uh people’s lives H the Senna brand has different verticals I would say so we have the speed vertical which is we have the Sena the McLaren Sena car or you know motorcycle or even iol that we made a partnership with uh imra a which is a h a company one of the biggest uh airspace company in Brazil uh but we also have entertainment that’s why we have the documentary that a lot of people have seen uh already and we are launching the Netflix series in the end of the year which is going to be a fictional series about Earth’s life uh we also have ex exhibitions we have activations in different ways through the world like we have a partnership with Formula 1 exhibition the you know the big um traveling exhibition that you have uh we also have things in licensing like the normal Li licensing is you know like when you see the track in the tracks you have like the national cap you have like the the S shirt we have Partnerships with different um with different brands like we have a tag Hoyer H watch and some models that we’re going to launch this year like we’ve been together for almost 10 years now and what does it mean Bianca to to the family that 30 years after his death you know sena’s Legacy is is still helping Brazilian kids become the best versions of themselves that they can be for us like we we we we think think that we made a tragedy become something that can you know change the lives of millions I think you know his passing is still really hard I have to say and it’s it’s hard like when you are in those years that you know you have to remember that because you know he had he had so much life uh you know ahead of of ahead of him but you know it was a tragedy but we made this tragedy become you know something that changes so many lives that is almost like he is in each of those lives that we are helping and I think that’s that’s what moves us so finally and thank you again so much for joining us um how can our listeners uh help well there are many ways uh I think ideas are always great following us on our social media sen. us or sen Brazil uh also by buying our products and finally by you know being involved in education in Brazil by you know uh donating uh to our foundation and making sure that you you can be part of this change because this this change is really important for Brazil we are really you know in need of help very very best of luck for you with all the celebrations of this of this Milestone 30 years and thanks again for joining us bianc it’s amazing what they managed to do in 30 years because of course they everybody knows what the Senna Institute is and because of senna’s image being so positive Brands want to be in touch with them so that’s why it keeps going and it it’s everything that I wanted to do in the all his life but mainly in the last months before he he died I actually spoke with a lot of people who met him for for many years and then they all mentioned the same thing that he was kind of leaving a little bit the full competitive sort of guy a little bit behind to be more in touch with this side of okay I want to give back to my country I want to do something especially for children he always wanted to be a father he never managed to be a father because he was so focused on formula one but he he wanted to have like as as many children as as possible and I think that is fulfilled with the The Institute and it’s something I have Bianca was mentioning the Sena character the cartoon character and that’s an interesting case because it’s sold as many things and the money all goes to the Institute and I see a lot of parents who want to show to their kids oh this is a guy I used to follow this is a guy that was very important for me so have this toy with the senia face and this love fora goes on and on and on also through the Institute so it’s a win-win for for everyone really fantastic well that’s it for this edition of the James F1 podcast my thanks to Manish Panda Bianca Senna Rebecca Clancy and Julian sasoli where can people find you on social media Julian well I’m on wa or Twitter J sasoli on uh Instagram my F1 life which is very easy to to find my website julian.com dobr and at wall uh Universal online the website as well YouTube everywhere we’re not going to miss you then clearly my thanks to Jason Matt and Dre for the production and thanks to you listener for your valuable time I hope you enjoyed it please like And subscribe share the word on social and tell all your friends you can email us on jamesallen on F1 motorsport.com we’d love to hear your comments your questions and your Reflections on at and CNA you can stay up to dat with all the latest F1 news online and on social media on Autosport and Motorsport and don’t miss Brin and the Autosport F1 podcast for the in-depth story and F1 weekend coverage available wherever you get your podcasts we’ll be back with another J and F1 podcast very soon [Music]