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This week on the show we discuss trophy hunting, our big game record keeping system and its conservation underpinnings, and the implications all of this has on our hunting culture.
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Welcome to the wired to hunt podcast this week on the show we are discussing trophy hunting our big game recordkeeping system and its conservation underpinings and how all of this impacts our hunting culture all right folks welcome back to another episode of the wired to hunt podcast brought to you by first light
And it’s camel for conservation initiative and today we are wrapping up our Series this month on the culture of our Hunting Community and we’ve got a great one we’ve got a couple guests here today that are going to help us explore one of the overarching issues that has
Hovered over much of this month’s conversation and that’s trophy hunting and scoring deer and big bucks and all of that and these are two folks who come to this issue from the perspective of the recordkeeping organizations that being the Boon and Crockett club and the pope and young Club my guests today are
Justin spring the executive director at the pope and young Club he also sits on the records and Ethics Committee for the Boon and cracker club and then I’m also joined by Dr John McRoberts he is a research scientist and wildlife biologist professor at the University of Montana and the program administrator
For the Boon and Crockett Wildlife Conservation program at the University of Montana and this whole conversation came together um in an interesting roundabout way that I’ll describe in more detail once the two of them join me um but I wrote an article discussing how I have questions about
The role that our recordkeeping systems and organizations play today and if it’s time to rethink that a little bit and this all came from you know kind of looking at these very issues that we talked about with Tony and Dan and Andrew about our community’s obsession with antlers obsession with score all
This one-upsmanship and this kind of just obsession over who’s the better Hunter who’s killed more big deer whose deer is better than this deer is this one better is this guy better yada yada yada and all of this social media chaos that stems from all that and it got me
To thinking you know why are we doing this how is this helping us where do this all come from which then sent me down a rabbin hole of trying to understand why were these recordkeeping systems invented in the first place and what was the original reason for that
What’s the historical impetus for this and is all of this is is the recordkeeping system and this idea of scoring deer and all of these things that have led us to glorifying trophy hunting um is this achieving what those Founders originally wanted for this system is this what we were supposed to
Be doing those are the questions that I had and these questions led me to writing this article and this article led me to get in touch with Justin spring who is the executive director as I mentioned of the Pope and young club we bumped into each other a show we
Started having a great discussion on these very topics which is all led us to where we are today and the conversation that I’m going to have here with Justin and John in which we explore the history of our recordkeeping system how we got to this point we discuss the
Conservation impetus the ways in which our records and scoring deer and other Critters was supposed to help with the conservation of wildlife I’m going to ask these guys some questions about how that might still be going on today is it actually going on is that a thing and is
It concerning at all that I don’t know the answer to that and that you probably don’t know the answer to that if that that’s why these recordkeeping systems were created shouldn’t it be important that we’re aware of that if it’s still going on now if so how can we make sure
That’s more so the case how can we make this whole thing more useful for conservation is there any way to take this whole scoring deer thing which I think a lot of us believe has gotten out of control what if we could kind of shift it around to not being a thing
That’s ranking hunters and who’s the best hunter and who can post a picture on Instagram and get more likes what if this could all lead to better cons conservation outcomes for deer and El and other Wildlife that would be interesting wouldn’t it and how do we you know think about the implications of
What this all means for our hunting culture that is the set of questions and ideas that I discussed today with Justin and John and I think it’s a really interesting place for us to wrap up this series and uh leaves me with some hope an Intrigue for what the future might
Look like for these systems and for how we as Hunters consider our trophies and how we partake in what might be a grand citizen science experiment if we let it be and if we participate in that spirit so that’s the plan for today I really enjoy this one I think uh you’re going
To learn some new things here and come to think about scoring deer submitting your deer to record books uh all of that I think we’ll be thinking about differently as well as the whole set of ideas around trophy hunting and uh and much more there so I’m going
To stop rambling and trying to describe this thing and rather just let the conversation happen so you can see what it is for yourself I enjoy this one I hope you do too here we go all right joining me now on the other side of the internet I’ve got Justin spring and John
McRoberts thank you gentlemen for joining me today thank you appreciate you having us on yeah I’m excited about this one uh because I put you guys in the closing part of the lineup we’ve had a full month now discussing various aspects of our hunting culture and that’s a
Fairly ambiguous uh thing to consider there’s a lot that goes into that um but I feel like your roles with the Boon Croc club and Pope and young put you in touch with a lot of these topics we’ve been chatting about here everything from trophy hunting and antler scoring and
Fair Chase ethics um technology gear use science and conservation and the inter C of those things with the management of wild game and hunting regulations and all that kind of stuff this is very much uh the world we’ve been exploring and very much the world I know that both of
You exist in so so first and foremost thanks for making the time to to join me on this and to kind of dive into this set of topics that’s not always easy to get into um but the original kind of connecting impetus for this as you both
Know uh came from an article I wrote and this article was titled it’s time to rethink big game excuse me big game recordkeeping and this whole thing I don’t think I’ve shared with you guys this but this whole thing came about because I was asked to write about a particular Buck story
That had come out a few months earlier um and a guy had shot out worldclass white tail and then he had gone and had it scored by this organization and that organization and this organization he thought it was going to be the number two um typical buck shot with a bow or I
Can’t even remember the specifics now but he thought it was going to be a number two buck in certain rankings and then each different organization had some different reason there nitpicking it apart and I found myself talking to him and going through all the details
And I I I got bored with it I got I got to thinking like why am I spending all this time why is anybody spending all this time nitpicking over if this Buck certain time is an abnormal time or is it a shared base or is it this thing or
That thing like why is the story about this deer about whether it’s this score or that score why isn’t the story about just this person’s incredible experience or about the landscape that produced this deer or about the time he shared with his family afterwards I personally have just become so sick of this
Inches above all kind of thing that sometimes we fall into and I Collective like I consider my part myself a part of that sometimes like I I’ve been guilty of that too and so that’s what kind of sent me down this weird rabbit hole that the article became the article became
Kind of nothing about that guy’s specific Buck it became all about you know what else is there when it comes to this whole scoring thing what was it originally here for why did we devel scoring system what was that all about um and are we living up to that original
Impetus and the the very very Cliff Notes version of which I’m going to ask for the both of you to chime in with a little bit more detail but the the original kind of starting point for all this came from with the founders of the
Bo and Coca Club looking at this as a as a conservation project in that we were trying to recover these species many many different species Across the Nation that had become to the the Cliff’s Edge Of Extinction in many cases we are now realizing like hey we need to recover
These species and how do we keep track of whether not that’s happening how do we keep track of if we are seeing success what kinds of um how do we track and measure indicators of the fact that maybe we’re doing this in some kind of way so they started these recordkeeping
Systems in those early years and there was this idea of using this data set to support future conservation efforts good data leads to good science leads to good work on the ground and better population management I think was where that started and so I then spent you know
Another 500 800 words asking questions about is that still happening today is that how we’re using this now or has it just become you know a way for hunters to argue amongst themselves about who’s the better Deer Hunter who’s killed more 200 inch deer who’s etc etc etc um and I
I feel like that’s like a a a let down or a a underutilization of the opportunity we have so I posted that article went out there into the world and Justin at some point you saw it or somebody sent it to you and then a few
Weeks later you and I bumped into each other at the Western hunt Expo and a great had a great conversation about these things this is all a very long rambling setup to why we are all here today because I’d like to get your perspective the both of you on some of those
Questions that I had coming out of that little bit of soul searching that I had when I was working on that piece um so the first thing I’m curious about and maybe Justin if you want to kick us off here the first thing I’d love to hear
Straight from you is a little bit more about the Genesis of this whole thing yeah right um how did we get here with this record keeping system the set of systems that we have here today and what were those original goals for them so to start with you know the system was
Redis in 1950 um but we’ll get to that I’ll start from the very beginning you know we go back to 1893 I believe was the first Sportsman’s Exposition in New York that Theodore Roosevelt was a judge on you know looking at um at the time what was
The best trophy right hunting wasn’t as common and so from the very beginning of the organization they were interested in in the top specimens you know they they figured out like the scoring was very basic man that one has a real nice G2 plus five points oh I don’t like the C
Color of this negative2 so they could see right away like man this this whole judging of an animal off of somebody’s criteria doesn’t work at the same time they completely felt that all Wildlife was going extinct and they weren’t wrong at the time um 1906 the club started making or started
Compiling the national collection of heads and horns and so even in your article you mentioned the 1906 book that was a field Journal that the club kind of put together to for hundred it wasn’t it wasn’t a scoring per se it was more of a a journal of hey I took this animal
Here’s some useful measurements that may be able to be used so in the beginning they were trying to find the best of every specimen to save for Our Generation thinking that no big game was going to be available so that that’s the very beginning of Boon and Crocket that
That ties to your trophy hunting to where populations couldn’t sustain Harvest on Young and females so looking for only the oldest most mature animal was was the way that hunting could continue um you know if you read articles from back then people are apologizing to the public if they took a
Second moose in their lifetime you know we we’ll get into this later but I think that there’s a lot to say that the fact we can go shoot three or four deer every year is so much different than what these guys were facing so anyway that
Was the from 1906 to 26 I believe we compiled this National Collection of heads and horns they were looking for the best specimen for the future well we get into the 20s and 30s you start having Wildlife Conservation takeoff Pitman Roberts and all the efforts of the organization early on towards
Conservation and this this collection was in the Bronx Zoo well as Wildlife populations recover um people don’t want to go see heads hanging in a museum anymore they can go to Yellowstone now they can go to these par and see these animals so it kind of fell out of fell
Out of circulation and they closed down the Exhibit while the club saw these conservation successes and they’re like man how can we track that like how do we how do we ensure that you know what we’re doing right is recognized and what we’re doing not doing correctly is
Recognized so this is when this group of guys sat down to develop the scoring system that we have today that’s now criticized on is it perfect is it this is it that they they took every species and they said what is the typical form what is the common form of this animal
Um you know they they took the best science at the time and said you know um bilateral symmetry massiveness those are the traits of the health of specimens what is a typical for example white tailed deer look like well it’s got you know a main Beam with with tines that
Come off equally spaced roughly matched off the outside of the beam all the way out so they they decided what the common or typical form of each animal was or specimen was and that’s what that score was based around to you know go to where
We are today and so it even even in the beginning it kind of changed I mean to your point of how do we go forward you know there there’s things that we can improve on for sure but that’s that’s how we got this system now that’s that’s so heavily criticized on deductions and
This and that and there’s my long rambling answer to your question no that’s that’s great so so the I think there’s there’s something that folks or was curious about and you mentioned there a little bit the fact that there’s there’s a lot of criticism around you
Know Nets are for fish right folks don’t like deductions folks don’t like the fact that we don’t give the deer credit for abnormal points for non-typical points for all that kind of stuff um so I just want to reiterate something you said and then ask maybe if you can add
On if there’s anything else I’m missing here the a key point is like the scoring system that was put in place was put in place because it should be documenting and and points to the healthiest deer so the idea being we are looking for indicators of health and historically abnormal points or
Asymmetry was indicative of poor health correct so some form of stressor generally and John can touch on this a little more he’s looked at the research but most of what you know would be considered a deduction is is caused by some stressor be it you know pedicle
Damage bug bites you know who who knows what it can be but you know in at the time that was why they were looking for those S symmetrical massiveness trophies and Jo you want to touch on that from what you’ve seen in today’s research yeah I will Justin and so
Justin mentioned bilateral symmetry when we get into atypical antlers uh the term that that folks might want to look into a bit more is fluctuating asymmetry and that’s what a lot of the research is based around and that’s not only in Antlers that’s in humans that’s in biomedical
Research and so the idea is that’s a proxy for Ev environmental or genetic stressors of some kind now those could be you know parasites injury disease density dependent issues and so I’ve heard the criticisms too but when the scoring system was developed it was separate the typical the bilateral
Symmetry from the asymmetric and so that’s where those classifications came from and U there’s more to the story that we’ve seen this research done on on fluctuating asymmetry taking it a step farther it’s what about female Choice are females really selecting for either bilateral symmetry or in against asymmetry and so there’s there’s
More to the story but the important thing is with treating this as a scientific data set which which we should Explore More consistency in methods and how you score and how you classify makes this data set a lot more powerful and and so there is some value
Into keeping the scoring system as it’s been yeah so that that perfectly Segways to the next kind of side of this I I’m I’m curious to learn a little bit more about um as we kind of talked about earlier I can’t remember if this was before we started recording or
After we started recording um but it seems like within the realm of the general public um when I think about the Boon and Crockett record books or I think about the pope and young record books um I only ever hear those things referenced and brought up I only ever
Hear score brought up when it comes to oh my buck was this big but your buck was only that that big or this is a top 10 Buck or this is a new state record buck or this is going to be the new world record buck or uh you know this
Guy’s kill 5200 Ines he’s better than you or whatever it is um that’s the only time I’m ever hearing scoring and recordkeeping brought up in in general conversation with your average deer hunting buddy of mine no you’re but it sounds like sorry just one just one more
Thing um but from what you were saying Justin it doesn’t seem like that was ever brought up by Mr Theodore Roosevelt or George bird grenell or Hornady or anybody back in the early 1900s when they were you know co-founding the Boon and croca club and this recordkeeping
System uh it was it was not to confirm who the best hunters were or who has the most 200 inch deer or whatever it was to create a scientific data set to help with conservation efforts right can you can you speak a little bit more to the
Ways in which the data set has been used or was hoped to be used um because I think that’s that’s an important thing for us to understand is is are these records are is this whole idea of measuring antlers is this to tell who’s the best dang hunter or is this to do
Something better for the future of wildlife no I mean it’s interesting you bring it up that the only time you hear about it is is the next World record or the big as this or big as that I can honestly say I I didn’t go into this this line of work and concert
Conservation and scoring or anything because it was about ranking Hunters it was about the conservation you know and I’d always try to tell we had a marketing team at Boon and Crockett how do we get folks to check out our page how do we get them to
Join you know what always fell flat the thing that excited me the most like this County just put out a deer that just made the book we’ve never seen this County put out a 160 before it got nothing you put out there hey potentially the largest typical killed
In Ohio by a female millions of likes right and so you’re not wrong what you see is what people want to see I guess is lack of the for lack of a better term we we tried to push it out we tried to tell the conservation story this is why I
Love getting on a podcast like this with you know your listeners and whatnot is explain this was not what it was ever was never supposed to rank the hunter um you know one thing I always tell folks and they oh Nets are for fish all that man if we were looking to recognize
Hunters we would have used grow score we’re looking to recognize conservation so that’s why that Net score that symmetry all that comes into play and so you know the the group that started this we never wanted somebody having a hunt made or braak you know made or broken by a
Number that was attached to an animal that was never what we wanted I mean there’s areas in the country that okay you’re not going to get as big of an elk in this area that number tells you that it’s not that you’re less of a hunter
That it’s not as good of a trophy it’s you know biologically why do the El in this state not grow as big a G4 as the elk in that state you know and yeah we’re as frustrated with it as you are and we don’t disagree with the pro you
Know the problems of of folks making everything about that final number and not about everything else that goes into it yes so what’s what’s the alternative of the record keeping system that being like can you give me some examples of how this data set that we have right now
Is being used for conservation because I think the average person maybe is thinking like I don’t see how a bunch of antler scores helps conservation um could you get could you guys share some know I know that the the state of Idaho was looking at a partic one of their
Biologists was looking at an area and felt that the deer were getting smaller they took our data and compared it was some stuff they were doing to see if it matched um oh Arkansas I believe put in an antler Point restriction and they saw some Trends in their Harvest data that
They then got BNC data to see if it matched what they were seeing if we were seeing it at our level as well um there was a wildlife monographs mon teeth at Al that that was done by a group of of professors that are associated with the
Club that looked at over time was Hunter selection potentially causing big game animals to get smaller you don’t hear about a lot of this in the the the you know social media or that world because it’s pretty in-depth research um John do you have other good examples those are the ones
That come to mind for me yeah there’s other peer-reviewed literature and in a university setting that’s that’s everyone’s currency is doing this research that goes out for review by your peers is flaws are looked for so that that paper won’t be published that’s how the system worked
And there’s a number of papers in Premier Wildlife journals like the Journal of wildlife management the wildlife Society bulletin the Journal of mology that have used this data set as a variable to comment on what goes into antler productivity from soil minerals to land use type to edges to Habitat
Connectivity and so there’s a number of studies that takes the information that was recorded on that score sheet Aggregates it across the US and can produce the highest quality research the other way that the scoring system is commonly used is if ant measurements or horn measurements are used as a
Covariant of some point in in someone’s analysis and so this this this isn’t Technical and it’s just instead of taking a measurement say hind foot length they can use the BNC score to help generate conclusions and and so those are some of the top tier I’d call call them research
Outputs from this from this data set but about this time last year Justin and I had an email from a college senior at the University of Wisconsin who wanted to do his senior thesis project on um whail antler scores and relate that to climate to land use type land cover and
So this is a study that never gets published but it helps helps this young man graduate presumably he’s a hunter and so um it it kind of comes full Circles of Citizen science Hunters helping generate management and conservation output and so in the beginning Mark you ask if the science is
Still happening it most definitely is I mean this is still a nationwide long-term data set we just probably need to do a better job advertising that that’s how it can be used yeah it it seems like it’s it’s ripe for opportunity like it’s it’s almost an underutilized resource or
Or let me let me rephrase this an analog or an alternative community that I’ve seen do something really really neat with a citizen science initiative like this would be the burden Community right there’s the burden community and they have the eird app in which they have burds from all across the world
Documenting every bird they see and where they saw it and this has become something that is an exciting opportunity to participate for the bder and then it also helps lead to a data set which is of unbelievable conservation value to researchers and managers trying to understand how bird
Populations are doing Across the Nation the impacts on the environment environmental impacts on bird populations Etc um we have a similar set of invested users in Hunters who are out there doing something in in our case we’re not necessarily documenting a sighting we are able to
Document a harvest or kill and we have a data point every single time we kill an animal um and so I see the Boon and Crockett record books the poping young record books this is like it’s it’s collecting a micro slice of the data out there and I’m just
Curious if there is an opportunity for more like is there an opportunity for there to be greater participation from the hunting public in this if it were to be framed as a citizen science opportunity and not a hey get yourself in the record book so you can you know
Be a a big bad hunter that killed a boon and Crockett Buck um is there any opportunity for for looking at recordkeeping in the hunting World in that kind of way is there an argument to be made a pitch to be made to the average Hunter out there that’s
Like hey man you should submit your buck to Boon and Crockett or to pop and young even if you don’t care if you’re in the top 50 for the state or not just because like hey this is good for conservation this is good for Science and if that is the
Case are there any changes we could make to how we do this so that that data is even more variable or more thorough John do you have thoughts on that or Justin well I think we it’s spot on I mean if we could expand the scope of this data collection it’d
Be all the more powerful interestingly you mentioned eird I mean that’s that’s tied with the internet but prior to that it was the North American breeding bird survey which came online or came about in the mid-60s and so interestingly this data set has 15 years on one of the
Oldest Beyond there I think that it would be fantastic to message that exact need to The Hunting Community I mean the more data from that we can collect with this data set the more powerful the conclusions will be yeah what are your what are your thoughts on that Justin we spent a good
Time amount of time talking about this in Utah no I I think the more data we can collect the better um when I was when I was at Boon and Crockett we’ve got many states have a state level organization that’s collecting data with a lower minimum uh score if if we can
Tie that together with you know Boon and Crockett’s data that increases our data um data set size the one issue that we have you know with being too much citizen science is the way that Boon and Crockett set this up is that each person that does the scoring is trained it’s a
Five-day workshop and so there is a standardization of the data that we we can look at that data it’s all been reviewed they’ve all been trained the same way so we have specific people that’s where it gets a little bit problematic to really blow this up to where everything gets scored and and
Taken care of is having those official measures that that have been taught how to do this the correct methodology and whatnot to get it um but we are always looking for you know the example I give and I hear heard this a lot and still do
Is that well I have one in the book but it’s bigger so I don’t want to put this one in when we’re looking at Trends man one’s smaller than the one that you killed before is just as valuable as one bigger you know we don’t only I mean
We’re defensive as Hunters but man we we don’t only want to just show the positive we want everything I mean how many people have said oh there used to be you know deer 10% bigger in this County up until this happened well you know these these record books Pope and
Young and Boon and Crockett we’re the only ones that have the data that can really check that and say is that you know the case or did they move did they change H you know did they change selectivity of where they’re where they’re living are we seeing them now
More on edge where they used to be Timber and so every single data point if it makes any book be it state or or Pope and young or Boon and Crockett or all the above I think it’s very important to put them all in and and if you’re
Fortunate enough to you know find yourself in a situation to harvest one that meets those minimums I mean 40 bucks 35 bucks whatever the state fee is versus Pope and young or Boon and Crockett that’s a that’s an investment and conservation you know and I I always
Try to tell folks like don’t don’t worry if it doesn’t make all don’t worry it it’s a data point that we need to see for us to do our mission you know and we’d love to have you participate so I I I think there’s a huge call for it you
Know it’s just we we have we can’t we can’t throw the data out that we’ve built we just how do we expand on what we’ve had to make it a more robust data set without losing quality so so then why not remove the minimum score why can’t I kill 100 why
Isn’t my 110 5 and a halfy old buck that I killed off of a fresh clearcut in Southern Michigan a useful data point for future conservation efforts 100% is it’s just the the the feasibility of maintaining all that that’s why you know Boon and Crockett said we can’t keep
Track of every animal taken so how do how do we extrapolate okay let’s let’s take the very top tier right we know if they’ve reached this minimum score which is why we don’t look for the biggest every year we’re just saying hey if it hits this level every everything had to
Be in place for it to get there so in that case we can’t say oh the problem is this or the problem is that what we can say is historically we were seeing this many meet this threshold now we’re seeing less or now we’re seeing more from a single organization we had to
Limit what we could look at just to maintain our integrity and make sure we were doing it correctly so we did not have the ability to take everything that was 105 Ines or better but yes it’d be great data we if we could get folks to
Support us to the point where we could drop minimum scores and record more that that’s the ideal world for data collection yeah I could if if if if money wasn’t an object and he had all the support staff and and funds to do it man it does I wish that
Was the case I wish that we could reframe this as like hey like let’s all participate in getting the best possible data this is because because because data provides the foundation for all management decisions right and and if we can as Hunters can right right uh we
Hope it does and and what a great opportunity for us as Hunters to be a part of that um like I would I would love to be a part of that I would like i’ I have zero desire to be on a list that shows how I rank with other Hunters
But I have tremendous desire to contribute to a more positive future for white tail deer or elk or whatever it might be and I think there’s a lot of hunters out there today that feel that way um I kind of feel like the market of
Hunters who want to be in a list and ranked that’s saturated like those folks who are going to participate in that that they’ve kind like they’ve done it they’re there they know how to get their name in there and they’ve been in their bunch there’s this whole other blue
Ocean of hunters who don’t care about that or who are sick of hear about that who would love to participate though in this side of things H how what what opportunity is there for that kind of person to get involved given the limitations that you’re talking about Justin you know I
Mean the one thing is we we heard we hear a lot of this you’re heard a lot of it at BNC we actually change the rules where if you submit all your information to Boon and Crockett you still don’t have to have your name listed in the
Book you can put your trophy in anonymously we never had anybody do it and so maybe it did wasn’t out there enough but man people worry a lot about oh I don’t want to give up my hunting spot I don’t want to do this I don’t want to do that you
Know it’s really hard for me trying to talk to somebody oh I’m a conservationist you know put that in you’ve got 15 deer that are on the wall that over time you know you could show a trend you could show something you know get those scores get get those entered
If you want to be more involved in this citizen science both Pope and young and Boon and Crockett are always looking for official measures um you know sign up to to come to a course and and and learn about the system learn about you know
What we’re doing and then be one of the representatives for these organizations out there you know getting those deer digging those deer out of garages talking to people getting the stories you know that’s how we build this out and and you’re right I mean the Boon and
Crockett went with the classic bait and switch hey be part of our cool Club enter your deer and you can be in this book well we were getting the data it was a classic bait and switch we’re very good at getting those guys that want to
Be on the list and it’s cool I mean hey I’ve got a number six mountain goat in Oregon you know whatever it may be that’s a cool thing but man the guys you’re talking about that don’t really care about the list and just care about the future they’re just as important and
So that you know that’s why John and I are here is is to talk to you and you know kind of plead this case of you know this is why everybody should protect ipate and it’s not about you know ranking and and this and that it it’s never
Been yeah I think it’s it’s a it’s it’s a great reminder because I I think most of your average hunters and and speaking from like my own world I’m in and the people I talk to I don’t think any of my friends would ever think about submitting their deer to the record
Books because of what we’re talking about um but when they hear this and they realize like oh hey you know what actually there there’s something more to it than just like this ego thing um then I I bet you there will be a bunch of my friends who would be much more
Interested in doing it recognizing like oh this is something that actually might help um I yeah it’s not that doesn’t take that much time I can do that um that all said though when making this case that the record books and having our deer scored um contributes positively to Future conservation
Efforts it it seems to me like if we’re trying to accumulate this wealth of data that can be used to make better decisions in the future um it seems like the data is is is so thin like there’s so much more I wish we could get and you
Mentioned this consistency of data John um I I had questions in that piece like why why can’t we pull a tooth and make sure that every submission has a tooth so we can get an accurate age on that deer why can’t we have some level of more location
Um Fidelity so we can tie these uh these data points back to better location sets so that we can have you know more granular location related correlations and Trends why can’t we have something like weight of the animal or or any other biometric data to make sure this
Is more than just an antler score thing it gives us a better picture of animal health which should give us a better picture of environmental health which should give us a better data set for conservation decisions um can we not add new data categories to these record
Books you first of all you hit on the top two that I’d love to see and that’s location and age and BNC now voluntarily asks for an inzer that can be aged but it seems like that’s a tall order from some Hunters to to submit that and so requiring it where where it
Was all or nothing I think we’d end up losing data points that still have great value and Justin hit on the location thing some folks just don’t want to give out their location and I kind of get that I mean we’re coming on to Spring
And I don’t think I’d give away my best morale location for Science and so that’s that’s just the reality of what we’re in that said if more people could voluntarily give a lat long and could pull a tooth the power of the conclusions that we could draw from this data set would
Skyrocket and so it would be great it would be great to have that the only reason why I think it’s prohibitive is just the likelihood of hunters submitting it right now is is not entirely High you know and from both organizations you know we’ve done everything we could trying to get an age
BNC pays for it I mean it takes a while we have to get a 100 teeth I think was the old deal for for them to get the the break but if somebody wanted to submit a tooth we’d say hey once we got to 100 we’ll submit these we’ll add that um
There is certain categories of the data that do have tremendous age data Associated sheep comes to mind because they’re all checked in and so there’s that standardized aging of rams that is all held in the data set now we don’t publish that but that is there um
Location data we would always take as much as they would give but we just never publish more than County it it varies from 100 to 100 some guys would send in a GPS coordinate like literally down to the spot it was taken we recorded that that’s in the data set so
If somebody requests the data and they want to look at location that was there for them we just never made that publicly available you know to where the general public could see hey this this guy killed this deer or this gal killed this deer at this particular spot um in
Terms of the weight it would be very useful but that goes back to the in the 50s and the 60s when this was developed and that was the the 60-day drying period it was the standardization you know some people were a month in the mountains and they had to you know it’s
Not fair that somebody could shoot this animal and get it scored that day and the other guy had to wait a month till he got out so they put in this 60-day drying period to kind of standardize it that would be the issue with the weights
As we don’t not that there couldn’t be a system developed but right now we don’t have a standardized here’s how Boon and Crockett collects the weights of animals um they did do research at one point on muss to see if the if the mass of a moose varied in different areas and
So for a while there was actually a diagram on the score chart that said okay was it was it the whole skull was it cut narrowly was it cut in the middle and so it kind of shows you some of that variation you get in trying to add a
Data data point well how much skull is cut in the middle in John’s opinion versus mine and so that why some of those factors that would be super awesome just over time we never had the ability to implement you know due two variation that kind of shot holes in the
The validity of the measurement and with the weight thing when we’re let’s say we’re out colloring deer or elk or analou or whatever weight isn’t a common variable that we’ll collect I mean it has some use but having age class data that can take you a lot farther with with management implications
So John from you know being so involved on the science side of things if you had an unlimited budget if we could guarantee that b andc or PNY had an unlimited budget and all the Staffing they could ever ask for and you were tasked with renovating the recordkeeping
System so that this could be the absolute best tool for future conservation needs in a time when we are probably going to have great G conservation needs than ever as the human footprint on the world continues to expand as as so many different factors change environmentally over the
Next 50 to 100 years I think it is you know not an exaggeration at all to say that we are you know going to be faced with all sorts of difficult choices and um unforeseen circumstances in coming decades right for wildlife so we need the best tools that we possibly can have
Heading into that future so if you were tasked with uh creating this 2.0 system that would be that tool for the future again budget Staffing none of it’s of a concern please tell me what that perfect 2.0 system would look like well I wouldn’t do much to change the
Measuring of antlers and horns because I I I think that’s pretty well covered I would have an ultrasound and collect rump fat if dead animal I’d collect bone marrow condition and quantity in the upper femur be good to pull a lymph node to get a clearer idea of CWD distribution of
Course get the tooth get the location and those are the first couple that come to mind and with that information on every potential animal that’s Harvest you’d have a a out of this world data set but that’d take an unlimited budget yeah and so you would you would
You would ask for the every animal har harvested no minimum score is that correct um if you could get it every animal that was harvested that was Road killed that was anything anything that someone could get their hand on and yeah that’d be that’d be the dream data set
Yeah okay now let’s say that uh your boss came in and established a budget and the real world is back in play you have you have the the real set of limitations we have in this real world what is what are two changes that you would make if you had the ability to
Make two changes to our system or or or you know the data we’re trying to collect um what would those two changes or asks be within the set of limitations that we know we have well something that would be that would be very feasible and it it
Loop in it require looping in some statistician and some population modelers but um the amount of effort number of days number of hours that somebody was hunting for a particular animal and this it’s easy to think of this on a micro scale where you know
Where this big white tail is on the back wood lot but how much effort went into that because knowing those Hunter effort metrics that result in Harvest can really help with population forecasting and then again I know I’m sounding like a broken record here but age goes a long
Long way knowing what the age class is for that population would be valuable um most of the animals that would make the BNC book that would come back to us are older animals and so having there’s ways where you can get proxies for year and a half versus two
And a half that’s really not applicable here and so pulling that tooth would be the most reliable way and if you had that you’d be in very good shape yeah so Justin um being in the the leadership role that you are there with p and Y and and understanding your own
Limitations and having your previous experience with BNC um if you could snap your fingers now and and either take one of these suggestions that John had or or make a change of of your own desire what would you like to see change um or be updated
Or renovated in some kind of way to to improve this citizen science opportunity you know just just participation I mean that as as a leadership role I mean anything’s POS you if if all of a sudden we started getting 100% of the animals that were taken that made Boon and
Crockett and Pope and young if everybody was participating at that level we’d have the funding to go bigger you know if if age again age has been a occurring theme I I spent 15 years at BNC trying to figure out how to up that age data I
Mean I I got to play with the data it was a lot of fun because we’d have teeth that had replacement and wear ages we had bi um OB you tagged animals so known age and then we also had uh the the section tooth data and I could compare
Them you know and I I can tell you a lot of a lot of white tail Hunters want to call their Boon and Crockett deer four and a half and mo most of them aren’t um you know that that kind of shows some of the some of the hiccups of going too
Much citizen science so you know like I said I to John’s Point yeah I’d love to add a couple traits honestly there’s probably a couple small changes I’d make on the scoring um just just because having done it for so long being like man I don’t understand why they made
That rule the way they did but again they’ve been doing it for you know 80 years you can’t really throw out 80 years of data just because there’s a better way to take a want on a bull H yeah okay so I think uh a reasonable
Ask for the audience then it sounds like would be participate a little bit more in this if you previously thought this was not for you because you don’t care about how you’re ranked within the list of other Hunters who killed the 170 inch Buck or whatever it is um there’s a science
There’s a conservation reason to do this there’s value in submitting the thing and submitting is as thorough of a of a uh submission as you possibly can with all the data you’re willing because the more data the better and and let’s all do the age let’s throw in the voluntary
Age opportunity let’s check that box because it sounds like that’s gonna be very valuable data and then if we all do this if we all do a really good job of participating more then Justin’s going to have the funds to be able to take more of these submissions and maybe 10
Years now we’ll have a case to be made to lower the minimum uh scoring threshold so we can have more folks participate or add on um one of these other asks that John made um so that’s this is a step in the right direction maybe right that’s right and the other
Thing I mean we participation is key uh I’ve deer hunted most of my life I grew up in Missouri around big deer I’ve never killed a deer that approached 160 I know people who do every season and I Hound my friends and encourage strangers to submit because there is
Value in this and so even if you’re not the one that made the Harvest communicate to people who do how much this can benefit conservation by hunters I mean it’s kind of that positive feedback like we’d see in PR dollars and buying duck this is a
Way for hunters to step up and benefit conservation yeah so so we I I also want to pick both of your brains about the flip side of this conversation which kind of ties back to the original thing that my article started with which was the obsession with antlers and antler score that many
Have within their community and that I have been guilty of at times too and there’s nothing wrong with being excited about big deer I love big deer I love big elk they’re fascinating amazing Critters and I get a charged out of chasing them um but there are definitely
Some downsides to what this has done to our community and culture as well not to mention the fact that uh survey after survey after survey shows that the non-hunting public those that are the majority that have the voting power to determine Our Fate uh are very strongly
Telling us for decades now that they are not supportive of trophy hunting um so there seem to be some risks that come alongside of the continued promotion of antler score antler size that kind of thing Justin with your role at a company or at an organization you know that has
Been a part of this recordkeeping for decades now how do how do you personally think about this do do you have any worries about our infatuation with antlers do you not do you see negatives or concerns around it are you not worried about it um from a cultural perspective from the
Impact of what this says about us as hunters or where hunting is going um where are you personally at with all that you know obviously the majority of my job um the promotion of of a lifestyle a promotion of archery a promotion of Records keeping of the conservation model that’s been around
Forever you know the success at my job is dictated by having the buyin of that 72% of the country that doesn’t hunt themselves but approve of it and so if we’re doing something that that 72% finds offensive there’s two ways to deal with that either we come together as a
Group and say hey we we just got to knock it off because they don’t like it or we have to say hey we got to fix our act here a little bit and explain to them why pursuing that oldest biggest most mature animal in some situations is
What you should do in other situations when we’re trying to lower the uh the the density of deer maybe we maybe we shouldn’t be shooting those bucks and putting in all that effort maybe we should be killing five or six Doe’s and so I do think that this over this
Infatuation this this do anything for the big deer is problematic and and we have examples how many how many you know creators TV show personalities different things along those lines have pushed it so far to to be that guy and to be the hero well we as Hunters are still
Watching them too and so you know how we separate this out in terms of I honestly see absolutely nothing wrong with antler scoring I see absolutely nothing wrong with the pursuit of a mature deer extending out your season um you know but you need to frame it like that you don’t
Don’t I only shoot you know 170 pluses that that’s we’re doing that to ourselves and that’s not the scoring system that’s our emphasis and so you know anytime I get to have a conversation um you with anyone I mean that’s why I came up to you I saw your
Your your article on the antler scoring I’m like man he’s got some good points but there’s also some counterpoints here let’s have this discussion you know let’s make ourselves better as a community and that’s my number one concern I I personally I think if Boon and Crockett and Pope and young ceased
Keeping records tomorrow both organizations would continue I don’t think it would do a darn thing though because there’s a system and people are still going to measure antlers and then there’s just one less referee in there so abandoning it I don’t think does us any good either it’s already been and
It’s already been done we’ve put our emphasis on a number and not the experience um you know that that’s my concern that that’s what I I lay awake staring at the ceiling at night thinking about how do I address this you know to maintain our conservation successes that
We work so hard to get into the future yeah what do you think about that John um I I don’t think it should be about the score I don’t think it should be about the competition I think the the hunters out there that use it as a measuring tool just to oneup
Are you know just that’s their priority this is an emotional issue for them and a value based judgment on how they want to recognize that animal uh it worries me I think it’s div divisive I am very Pro scoring for the reasons that I have mentioned in the last hour but I think
We’ve got to be careful I read your article and I wondered if this was a discussion we would have had 10 years ago or 15 years ago before everyone was so connected and so the ability to comment on everything was a bit more restrictive if you were
Writing a letter to the editor of Field and Stream or outdoor life or something about that when a score was mentioned I mean now it’s all in real time and so it worries me emphasizing the score and nothing else I think it’s it’s going to take away from what this was put in
Place to do and take away from the potential that it has and so that will fall on deaf ears to some Hunters I recognize that fully and that’s just my personal perspective so so this is a question that I have discussed with with all of our past uh guests within this little
Miniseries um I think a lot of us have similar worries and concerns similar to what the both of you just uh described but the question is always but what do we do about it because because I think you mentioned this earlier Justin right the content that people click on the
Content that people want to watch on YouTube or see on Instagram or read from the Boon and ccka Club you know it’s maybe 5% of the people will read the article about the conservation story related to this data but a million people will read the article about the
New world record um they’ll everybody will click the YouTube thumbnail with a 270 inch double drop Time mega giant right um so the question is like H how do we change this thing that just is I guess it’s human nature related to some degree um also cultural inertia um if we
All know that there’s something I don’t know if toxic is the right word but but something that seems um unhealthy within it if we know there’s something there what kinds of things can we tangibly do as individuals or as Leaders within this community or communicators or whatever role anyone listening plays within this
Hunting Community um what kinds of things would the two of you suggest an individual do to be a part of changing this trend in a little bit more positive a direction I think individuals need to be prepared to speak up I mean hopefully we could generate some some momentum
Through our discussion today and if people understand this is not a tool to figure out how much you can brag about or how much attention or clicks or whatever you can get but the real meaning of why we’re taking these measurements and if somebody sees that there’s a
New whatever record it might be for whatever species emphasized that that’s just one data point and that’s interesting and we can appreciate that animal and I’ll see any number of articles in the local paper where angler Catch catches a record fish of whatever kind and yeah
You click on it it’s interesting to know but communicating why we’re taking these messages I mean measure measurements and how to message it to The Wider Community I think is is a great first step what you’re doing today what do you think Justin you know I I’ve spent my time in the nonprofit
World you know do do in words of Roosevelt do what what you can with what you have where you’re at you know get on that advisory committee in your local area um you know get involved with a local conservation group depending on what it may be get involved at a
National level um you know somebody has a desire to learn about hunting or maybe they don’t like wild game man invite them over tell that tell that conservation story and I think if if you if you put it out there enough and you have enough people that you kind
Of bring bring along with you and say hey you know if you’re going to be a hunter I think this is part of it too not just going out and fill in the freezer hang in the buck on the wall you know do a game Feed invite some friends
Over that maybe don’t understand it and show them this type of thing you know I again ground up type thing I mean that’s the that’s what the the conservation movement always was that’s what PNY was that’s what BNC was you know spread your influence as far as you can and and
That’s how I think we combat this you know I mean if somebody’s all excited about uh you know that giant deer that they killed and then they mentioned well I didn’t get to cutting it up because I was too busy driving it around town I mean don’t lose a friendship over it but
Maybe chastise him a bit of like hey man you’re kind of minimizing it to one thing you know we’re I mean I I always joke yeah man I love I love hunting meat but I also like something to hang my hats on you know everything every part of that freaking animal should be
Utilized and respected you know and I don’t care if you’re minimizing it to just the meat or just the antlers or just any one thing that’s bad and and as Hunters we need we need to take we need to take pride in every single thing that
Has to do with that the the exercising the preparing the shooting of the bow year round you know all that stuff that’s how we fight this we show that we were brought here by conservation-minded people and we’re going to do our part to ensure that that conservation mindset
Continues and we don’t get wrapped up in the commercial commercialization of killing the biggest at the furthest distance as quick as possible yeah so I I find myself at a fork in the road uh because something you just said there Justin uh brings to mind another kind of
Half of this whole cultural discussion that I’ve been having over the last few weeks um you said something on the lines of you know whether you can kill a deer from as far away as fast as possible right and and when I hear that I’m thinking all of these changes in
Technology and how that’s impacting how we hunt um whether that be the the long-distance shooting craze whether it be thermal optics live streaming cell cameras drones being used all of these electronic Optics that allow you to rang find and and have all your adjustments made automatically for you there’s so
Many things changing right now um that are impacting really what hunting is and I have so many questions so many concerns about that and I think a lot of hunters do but at the same time there’s this whole push back on that from within the Hunting Community which is anytime
Somebody says well I don’t know about this technology or I don’t know about this thing or that thing the automatic response is you’re tearing down others in The Hunting Community you’re dividing The Hunting Community you shouldn’t do that at all everything should be okay as long
As it’s legal um what is your thought on the trend as we see them now with technology and gear Justin I’m sure this is something that you know you’re discussing at Boon and Crockett on the Ethics Committee a lot I’m sure PNY you’re thinking about
It a lot um how are you individually and how is PNY as an organization thinking about the what seems like a a rampant speed up of the advance of technology and how it’s impacting hunting you know and it it is and it it’s realistically you know put this into context it feels
Like yeah we’re getting a ton of stuff thrown at us right now um but this this idea of technology and giving the animal an opportunity to to win for lack of a better term I mean that is the root of fair chase the animal has the has a fair chance to to
Come out victorious in in the in the competition between hunt Hunter and Hunted right um you know this goes back the the very first time this came up was when Boon and Crockett required Fair Chase was the 60s with the prevalence of airplane usage in Alaska
For scouting and that was the first time that the organization was like man that could get real bad if people just flew around spotted them from the air landed and shot them like that’s that’s no good like that that’s not giving the animal a chance to escape or you know evade
Hunters and obviously we’ve come further and further along and and technology is not inherently the devil I mean there’s there’s things that we have now that that I would argue have have made us more ethical Hunters more legal Hunters you know now I know exactly where I’m
Standing I I I can you know I can figure stuff out that before like okay well best guess I’m pretty sure that fence line separates this and this so that type of thing I think is good but what we need to do and this is the discussions that are had with with both
Pope and young and Boon and Crockett obviously a little bit different in terms of Pope and Young’s mission is promotion of archery and they have defined archery as a vertical bow um you know it it’s it’s a it’s a valid method of harvest that’s why we were
Started was to prove it was and so they have a little bit tighter focus on looking at some of the Technologies is this technology going to be detrimental to the wildlife or does this make a bow no longer a bow right so there is some differences there between the two groups
But I mean at the end of the day like you’re not supposed to always be successful hunting is not supposed to have a predetermined outcome like you know I mean those of us that have been doing it forever like what what relives in your head again and again the time
You made a mistake the time that big buck winded you the time you moved when you shouldn’t have you tried to draw and he busted you you know those failures are the ones that are burned into your head and make you a better Hunter and when we start pushing technology to well he
Can’t smell me now cuz I don’t have to go into that bedding area for 6 months cuz I have a cellular trail camera yes it’s made it easier yes the deer’s not as Disturbed I I understand those arguments but as a hunter isn’t that part of the game of sneaking in there
Finding that bedding area and doing all that without relying on technology and it’s a very it’s a very volatile debate I mean what’s what’s inappropriate to to me to the next game might next guy might just be fine and so both organizations find ourselves in this situation where
We’re trying to play refere but trying to get it to a higher level what we found is addressing each technology one by one in essence we’re picking winners and losers of companies which is never what this was supposed to be doing not like oh they invested this much but we
Don’t think this is fair Chase that’s that’s not at all what any of these groups are ever trying to say so we’re trying to say from a higher level level what what is the line that cross that that the the technology crosses that makes it
Unfair um one that comes up with b andc a lot is it giving me the location of game electronically that I wouldn’t have got otherwise uh think drones think um some states now through Freedom of Information you have to release GPS cordinates real-time GPS coordinates of
Where a her of elk is and collar data they have to release that you’re now getting that actual location of the animal and so how do we make these highlevel rules that folks can look at and say you know is this crossing the line and the answer is there’s not a
Definitive line that’s why Boon and Crockett and Pope and young take so much heat is we’re trying to find that Gray Line and listen to everybody’s perspective and we’re the ones that finally sometimes have to say no man that’s just too far and we have to say it
Yeah John what what do you feel on this topic person it worries me I mean I agree with Justin and Innovation is coming and and this is so tied to personal ethics and values and priorities that it’s it’s an individual’s decision what they think crosses an ethical line when it
Comes down to it and so for some people it it’s no big deal for me I think that um that some of this new technology is just making it too efficient to harvest game from a population level among Hunters I mean one thing that worries me is I hunt
Throughout the West you look at species like mule deer and Elk where units will have however many tags allocated the game agencies are buffering where though that allocation is not assuming 100% success among Hunters if these new technologies come in and boost success that high then tag allocation for all the
Rest of us who are not using those Technologies may be reduced and so it may end up biting Us in the butt and making that tag more difficult to draw I’ve heard that animals will evolve and you know just like malards now get a spinning wind decoy a bit more than they
Did 20 years ago stuff like thermal units drones that’s uh that’s pretty tricky thing to evolve to respond to for a PO elk and so I don’t I don’t see that happening yeah so so one idea that I’ve had and it and it it might be Pie in the
Sky in Pana so I I guess what I’m looking for here is U is like a BS check from the two of you if you think anybody would go for this um but but when it comes to this whole technology thing right as we we’ve all kind of admitted it’s it’s very personal
It’s very subjective everyone’s going to draw a line in the sand in a different place and that is that’s by the nature of what ethics are right we all have a different um comfort level with different things but it seems like there are some general lines where you start getting
Closer and closer to and most folks start feeling like ah there’s something going on here so there’s there’s two hypothetical ways you could deal with something like this there’s the there’s the way of you know using the stick and saying we’re going to ban this thing or we’re going to
Regulate this thing or we are going to Outlaw this thing or or say this thing you know can’t be allowed in the record books Etc on the flip side there’s this alternative way which could be promoting the alternative um or or popularizing um the antithesis so one
Thought I had is like so for me one of my lines in the sand is with cell cameras um I’ve always thought that like realtime data is a line too far for me so I personally set a 24-hour delay on all cell cameras so that a full 24 hours
Removed from any knowledge that I gained through that technology and maybe even that’s too much much but right now that’s where I personally have drawn my line and I’ve thought what if you could establish some kind of light line like that where it’s like a a 24-hour delay
On a trail camera for example would get that trail camera a fair Chase certification from the Boon and Crockett club or from pop and young and that could be like a stamp like a badge of honor that a company could use to help Market their product or what if we had
A I don’t know what another example would be um but another one of these possible game changers I don’t know I for lack of a better more thought on this we’ll stick with the trail camera example um what if there’s something like that where we could vote with our
Dollars Hunters could say like hey we do want to promote this idea of keeping things you know not always getting easier but I actually we want to tap the breakes on this thing and we want to show all that desire we have by voting with our for the things that actually
Make it harder um is that the kind of thing that would ever work is that an idea like God I would buy all fair Chase certified cell cameras then I could be like hey yeah I still get to enjoy some benefits of this technology but I am you
Know I am by by by the Boon of the technology itself limited to not giving into the temptation of using everything um is that kind of thing a model maybe that could work in the future with other Technologies as we go forward am I on to something or completely agreed with you
And back before the uh cellular camera got the the following that it had and you know 80% of them went that way you know I I presented that to some companies and I said hey man what if we what if we put a a fair Chase certified mark on that and there
Wasn’t from the industry the companies I talked to at the time didn’t really gravitate towards that it didn’t it didn’t have the appeal that they wanted it to now that goes back to what we talked about in scoring and the adoption of you know everybody taking
Part in This Record Book you know a component of that is an ethical piece all these animals have to be taken in Fair Chase they do have you do have to say I took them within these rules which is the rules we’re making and so again
It’s just buying I mean I would I’d love to go to a company and say hey let’s let’s cross promote something um I’ve reached out to some trail cam companies and some other Technologies my thought has been hey what if we come out with the company saying yes this technolog is
Available yes it can be used correctly but also it could be used incorrectly and if that’s said jointly by the producer and the folks using it does that not lend some credibility to like hey man let’s let’s back it down a little bit on this thermal usage you
Know looking over an entire Canyon like yeah you can use it at night it’s good for predator control it’s you know you could use it here appropriately but you could also abuse this that way you’re not telling people like you can’t do this but you are saying like hey for the
Good of hunting for the survival of species like there is a way we need to conduct ourselves to give the animals a chance to win and then we also need to you know and I’m guilty of it too don’t post on you know Facebook oh I failed
Tag soup this year man we we got to be okay with that failure because you tried to make it too hard is just as admirable as success yeah yeah I really like that idea of um you know I think I think there’s a business opportunity for companies out there to lean into this
And there’s a there’s a there’s a story that will sell that will sell products I really do believe it not everybody in the hunting World wants uh the next big technology thing and even though I know the dollar tell otherwise I I I really do believe there’s something here that
Someone could take advantage of um but it’s uh not it’s above my pay grade I guess is what I’m getting at um do you have any comments on that John I’d love to see it work I mean I think you’re right that it would apply to some people make things a net
Improvement even if a handful of people switch to that more fair Chase approach that’s good for hunting that’s good for all of us but there’s there’s going to be Hunters out there who are hunting for Instagram and by any means necessary and I think that that that will be the tough Market to
Reach I like the idea so I’m reluctant well I’m G cross my fingers and hope that somebody at some company is listening and willing to take a risk I hope so too take a chance guys take a chance um all right well I think we could continue for two more hours down
The road of of all of these questions and worries which I’m guilty of sometimes doing I’m G to try to to to save us from that now uh by offering us an offramp is there any any other resource whether it be a book or a documentary or an online essay
Or something that either one of you have found inspiration from or have learned from or could see value in someone today checking out as a kind of uh Koda to what we’ve talked about today is there any favorite resource or recommend recommendation you could share with folks listening um related to the topics
We’ve covered today whether that be the history of the scoring system or conservation in citizen science or Fair Chase or the the use or moderation of Technology any of these things we’ve covered um is there anything that comes to mind that we uh maybe should check
Out you know it really Justin I don’t know or if either one of you have one if it really depends on how far you know how how deep that rabbit hole you want to go um there’s some tremendous reading um the uh the the biography of Theodore
Roosevelt um what what I found super intriguing was that his uncle actually started in Fisheries so a lot of our conservation movement originally was based off of the Hatchery model um you know that that one’s like the ultimate like trying to answer the question of
How do we get where we were how did you know how did this land just straight for technology we just um Boon and Crockett and the Ethics Committee just did a fair Chase module for part of the NRA Hunter Ed you can go onto their um NRA’s platform their Hunter education platform
There’s a fair Chase module that’s kind of a 2011 level um you know maybe you’ve got a you know teen to 20s that’s starting to get into this hunting really starting to take it we tried to um dedicate that fair Chase messaging to that demographic um Jim PTZ has a book beyond
Fair Chase um the pause was awesome it’s great you know you’re probably not going to agree with everything he wrote but he brings up some very good questions if you really want to question this idea of fair Chase and what is and isn’t okay um you like I said it just depends on
The level of Engagement and both clubs websites I mean there’s a there’s a fair Chase essay that Boon and Crockett did that kind of looks at some situations Pope and young has position statements on sites and definition of a bow uh there there’s there’s a ton out there um
Do you have any favorites John I’m gonna take the lwh hanging FL fruit and say every Hunter should read a san county Almanac by Al Le and if you’re only going to pick one thing within that book read think like a mountain and I think that’s a good way
To stay grounded and see how far this Wildlife Conservation Wildlife Management movement has come and I I think that’s good for everybody to take to the Duck Blind to the deer stand read in the offseason it’s just it’s it’ll keep us all looking in the right direction yeah I couldn’t uh I couldn’t
Agree more with you on that one um Justin I want to give you an opportunity for the last word just to plug uh Pope and young if you’d like and give folks explicit directions on the URL um on any specific actions you’d like them to take uh you know something we maybe should
Have covered but didn’t um would even be a walkthrough of exactly what goes into making a submission to pop and Young um if you want to tackle any one of those you’re welcome to you yeah no I mean go go to the website pop half popen you.org um there’s there’s membership options
There we’d love to have you as a member we’d love to have an entry um there’s a list of all the official measures you know if you’re in an area that there’s not a lot of official measures we’d love to have you fill out one of those online
Applications and maybe get involved as a as a volunteer for us scoring um 2025 we’re doing a big conv vention in Glendale Arizona April 9 through 12 we’d love to have you come out check out our convention um there’ll be you know seminars on these topics you know may
Maybe mark would be nice enough to come out and talk to us out there we’ll see hit him up for that but um you know anywhere you can get involved we’d love to have you and the website’s a great place to start and uh there’s all kinds
Of different links depending on you know conservation whatever you want to go down that’s that’s the best place to start and we’d love love to have you in our ranks and you know we talk a lot about the future man get involved help
You know help me do my job be one of the voices in the organization that rises up and helps direct our future love it all right gentlemen Justin John thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation thank you all right and that’s a wrap thanks
For being here I appreciate you thank you for being a part of this community and until next time stay wired to hunt
