In this edition of our Municipal Golf Network Webinar Series, we feature the renovation of the Walter Travis-designed Great Dunes Course at Jekyll Island Golf Club in Jekyll Island, Georgia. Panelists, including architects Jeffrey Stein and Brian Ross, discuss the preservation of Travis’s architectural design as they transform the 9-hole golf course to an 18-hole facility, the installation of a saltwater irrigation system and saltwater tolerant turfgrasses to improve climate resiliency and sustainability, and the restoration of the great dunes that once attracted Walter Travis to the site nearly 100 years ago.
My name is Will Smith I’m co-founder of national LS trust and I want to welcome everybody to another edition of our Municipal Golf uh webinars um this has got to be what our our eighth or ninth um a big shout out to Andrew sag who
Does a lot of the uh does all of the the heavy lifting on getting these things together so thank you Andrew for doing that uh we really appreciate it I know over the course of these um I’ve learned a lot and I hope those those people who
Who are joining us um for for for the second or third or fifth or sixth time also feel like they’ve they’ve learned a lot so uh thank you all for joining and um I’m excited for our discussion today um a little bit different than some of the stuff we’ve done before with a
Little bit more focus on architecture but also uh on the environment uh and so this is a this is a really exciting topic so um thank you thank everyone for taking time out of their busy schedules to join us here on a Friday um to talk about the great Dunes course uh let’s
Let’s Dive Right In um uh we are joined today by uh Jeffree Stein Brian Ross and NL Jensen um all all three of them uh very much involved with this project uh Jeff uh is got a start in 2009 through Tom Do’s prestigious internship program at
Renaissance Golf design uh Jeff I was a few years in front of you on that but uh you know it’s a great group and a Wonder wonderful way to get your start in the golf business um in 2023 he was named the inaugural world uh World 100 Club
Fellow given to promising early career Architects to study golf in Scotland while working for do his early training includes stints at Old McDonald disma River and Garden City golf club uh Jeff also worked as a shaper for Gil Hans at balol Marian and the a hoopi match Club along with several International Golf
Developments Jeff’s Brad expertise uh shaping golf courses Led Led to his own design work starting in 2020 with the restoration of debor emt’s only links design at the sea Wayne Golf Club in Long in New York in the last year Stein golf design completed its first major 18
Hole design and build renovation at Brookside Country Club in alentine PA Jeffrey and his wife Vanessa were married in September of 2023 congrats Jeff and and Cur reside together in in Brooklyn uh Brian Ross uh Brian is a golf course architect and the owner of Ross golf design LLC a fullservice golf
Course design and shape company with offices in Austin Texas and Rono Virginia Brian is a graduate of the landscape architecture program at Virginia Tech following College he spent several years working in Golf Course construction and as a design associate with a golf course architect in Piner North Carolina he formed Ross golf
Design in 2019 and some of his notable notable projects include the reimagination of Park Mammoth Golf Club in Kentucky named golf.com fifth best course in Kentucky and Golf Digest number three best new public course in America for 2022 Brian is currently planning major projects in Georgia Kentucky and Texas he lives in ronoke
Virginia with his wife Kristen and their three children Graham Caroline and Hannah uh and lastly NL Jensen NL serves as the deputy executive director of the Jackal Island Authority Jackal Island Authority is a self-supporting State entity responsible for the overall conservation development management and stewardship of Jackal Island NL has been
With the Authority for approximately 9 years having served as the senior directory director of facilities and public service and chief operations officer prior to his current position so welcome uh jent for and and thank you for joining us thank you well thank you thanks for having us um no let’s start
With you um can you just give us a little bit you know let’s let’s position ourselves in the world and give us a little history of jual Island because it’s a it’s a long and Rich history so uh let’s start let’s start there it is uh the the island was originally um a
Part of the Gilded Age history and kind of a playground for millionaires the piters and Rockefellers they used to take their private yachts and trains down here and this was their winter home area so they’d winter over like typical snowbirds do but live in some pretty
Lavish uh Style on jaal island and U as was as that generation started to move away from that um the island became rather dilapidated and this the state bought it for 675,000 in 1947 uh because they had a tax lean that none of the family members were willing
To pay at the time so the state took it over and um tried to figure out what to do with it and it decided to form the jaal island Authority um the Jack Island State Park Authority is the governor group that’s appointed by nine board members from the governor of the state
Of Georgia and um those board members have oversight over the operations and the revenue stream so that’s an important um aspect of jao Island that a lot of people don’t know is that although it’s a state park it’s not part of the state park system so we’re entrepreneurial operation if we don’t
Make Revenue we can’t spend it uh the state’s not going to come bail us out if we have a a shortfall we have to earn the money so we have to be fiscally conscious of what we’re doing just like a regular business and that’s kind of how we operate
Um they have a lot of golf history on Jackal Island Golf began in on jaal in 1899 um in the early 20s U the Walter Travis design course uh opened and it became a usgaa testing center so there’s a lot of uh history and Club history and
Ball history that can be found right here on Jackle Island and we’re happy to still have nine holes of that Walter Travis course available to us and that’s why we we had a RFP process and we were lucky enough to hire Brian Ross and Jeffree Stein to help us bring that back
To life and re-envision it and restore it back to its uh his iCal nature um so for for someone who hasn’t visited uh Jackal Island tell us a little bit about the environment the sort of the ecological considerations and and what the state of the island is
Is now well it’s it’s a lot different than um other Islands you would you would seemingly compare it to unless you’ve been here a lot of people think of you know Hilton Head also Gulf Mecca Mia Island uh St Simon Sea Island a lot of the coastal Islands K but jaal island
Is a lot different from those islands because we have a u a mandated acreage cap that we can develop to so we have um about 6,500 Acres on the island and we can we we can only develop about 1300 of them to, 1600 of them so um it’ll
Never be a concrete jungle it’ll we have height limits on structures so we don’t have highrise hotels like Myrtle Beach on the ocean everything’s flat you can drive down to uh the road right right adjacent to Great dunes and even great Dunes you can look out over the dunes
And see the ocean for miles and miles over the horizon so that’s um a byproduct of the limitations on development on the island and um there’s a a worldwide renowned Beach called Driftwood Beach that has uh old Driftwood trees that just washed up over time that um have been in several movies
The Walking Dead and the remake of The Color Purple that just came out was were filmed here so there’s a lot of natural areas and we have a a robust conservation department that make sure that things that are supposed to be conserved uh stay conserved along with a
A large history department and a one of the only operating sea turtle hospitals on the East Coast so we have an active sea turtle Center on the island and hosted more than 260 loggerhead and um Green Turtle nests this last nesting season last year so there’s a lot of nature of that you
Could see 23 mies of bike trails to bike around and um one of the best things as far as I’m a I’m a relatively decent golfer nowhere nowhere near awesome but um you can golf on jeal island and not see a house which is unusual for municipal course um typical munity
Courses are in neighborhoods where you you know the the housing structures are just part of the the landscape but that’s not the case on jaal U you could watch deer walk by and birds fly and rookeries while you’re playing golf so it’s a Municipal Golf experience unlike
I’ve never seen before no you you mentioned that golf’s been played there since 1899 the Travis course was built in the 20s and it has there’s a long history of golf on on jual island how does golf play um a role in the the economic support of the island uh you mentioned
That you guys need to be fiscally not even responsible but you need to be you know profitable you pay you pay for it yourselves basically so how does golf play a role in that well unfortunately um the the golf play on jaal island um has suffered a little bit
Until Co when everybody saw a boost but the the courses on Jaco Island were getting a little tired there were some grasses and irrigation and the weed pressures and the insect pressures we were experiencing are all because of um life span of some of the materials in
The ground and on the ground had reached their Max life expectancies so right now we’re underway with a renovation on Pine lak’s golf course and uh we’re hoping that after the great Dunes Golf Course is is remodeled we would see an increase in play which would increase revenue and
Make it a Prof profitable Endeavor um a lot of people look at our are financials and say well golf makes money but then you throw in the other half of the equation with Golf Course Maintenance and it’s U sometimes it’s a zero sum operation and that needs to change so we
Would enjoy to be able ble to see to where the golf on jaal island is contributing monetary Revenue to the entrepreneur operation but there is also ancillary economic impact that’s not um that is directly related to golf that is not in the golf Arena so Hotel nights uh
Golf groups that stay at uh short-term vacation rentals and a lot of large tournaments that come through here that definitely increase the economic activity and jaal and um that’s why uh that’s why we keep 63 holes around and it’s a lot of holes to maintain as a
Immun course for sure yeah well I think we’ll get back to some of some of those uh sort of economic questions but um you know I did want to talk before we move on to to the to Jeff and Brian a little bit about the the environmental
Pressures on the island um you know as you said that uh well over uh my math is hard but you know 80 75% of the island is is in conservation and can’t be developed what are what are the the challenges um being seen from an ecological perspective that’s to Jeff and and Brian
That’s you that’s still to you that’s still you well you know we’re trying to eliminate Turf to reduce maintenance and in doing that we’re able to bring back um some of the natural areas that existed that you see in historical photographs and I will tell you will
That I’m so proud of how much research Brian and and Jeff have have done on this on this whole renovation and re-experience on jeeko because they really embraced when I I imagine they fell in love with the place when they saw it because they really embraced the history and the nature and the
Environment in which it sets uh you know I I kind of well up a tear in my eye when to think to think we lost n holes of great Dunes back in the late 50s when they decided to put the state decided to put a road through and um there are some
Older pictures of that original nine that um that was the mate of the nine that we have left and basically what we had was the the Pebble Beach of the east coast and um to lose nine holes of that is tragic but it makes it even more important to get um the environmental
Pressures and golf to be able to live together in an ecosystem that contributes to each other where we’re we’re not putting down a lot of herbicides and pesticides where we have less grass to maintain and more natural areas and it looks like it belongs in the setting that it was originally uh
Constructed in and that’s that’s one of the main goals yeah and will if you don’t mind me diving into that please do I was coming to you next so this is perf okay I just wanted you’re on top good right um yeah just dovetailing off of what n said about um
You know reducing inputs uh you know one of the the grass choices that we made was Seashore pass palum uh which actually requires a lot less nitrogen than other um uh grass types uh in fact it’s it’s pretty helpful to kind of spoon feed it um and so you don’t have a
Lot of that runoff into the uh you know these Coastal hammocks that are adjacent to the golf course uh on top of that you know the decision to go for pass Palm is because uh you know we want to take pressure off the local aquafer freshwater aquifers um which have been
Under pressure from you know Regional development up and down the coast and um so we’ll be irrigating with the brackish water um that comes you know uh which is plentiful it just comes right up in Into The Hammocks and and we can um you know re re-engineer our irrigation system to
Uh handle handle all that so before we really dive into the environmental uh decisions you guys are making or the decisions being driven by environmental considerations on the golf course let’s just talk a little bit about the historical significance of of the great Dunes course and what story
You’re you’re seeking to tell with with the renovation sure go ahead Brian yeah I think you know when you look at a accessible affordable public golf on the East Coast they’re they far between there there’s some examples on the west coast but the East Coast it’s a little limited especially in this Coastal
Environment and so to to be tasked with with opportunity to to to bring back and restore something like that that that anyone can go see and can afford to go see is is so important to us the uh you know the history of the golf course obviously incredibly important is no
Mention been playing golf there since the 1800s Donald Ross had a course there at one point that was built on a portion of the land of the Oleander course which which is you know part of part of the property that we’ll be using for our course and and uh then when they brought
In Walter Travis obviously as far as Travis you know with the connection with with the national links trust you know between the two of us we have two of of only three public Walter Travis courses in the country and so very few people have had the opportunity to experience
Walter Travis they don’t know who he is for the most part and he even Beyond his golf architecture he was an incredible incredible story in golf didn’t pick up golf until he was in his 30s uh within four years was winning us amateurs won three us amateurs at
British amateur in a four-year period in the early 1900s it was very instrumental in the the uh invention and and um evolution of the putter so really a an incredible guy that we hope to to be able to educate the public golfer on on who he is and and one of the really
Beautiful parts of this project is how committed no and Aaron Saunders the superintendent have been to to the restoration process you know they they bought in before they even began this project and and you know for them to kind of to to be able to to grasp our vision and
And understand that hey we’re going to take some chances and and build some greens that you might not typically see on a municipal golf course uh you know but that’s our our ode and our honor to Walter Travis and and to what was out there before unlike the national league
Trust we don’t have any plans we don’t have you know the the very detailed greens plans that you guys have for East pic Park but we do have a lot of ground level photography we’ve got some early Aerials so we’ve been obviously studying and and diving into the archives there
On the island trying to figure out what was there and and what we can bring back then on the new nine holes you know we’re going to we’re going to be able to kind of give our interpretation of who Walter Travis was and and I think we’ll do that on the
Greens complexes and and try to build a really cohesive set of 18 greens that that will rival anything that you’d see on some of his highend private clubs in the Northeast well I know uh we’ve got some some images um that that uh historic stuff and and also some of what your
Plan uh going forward is so um let’s let’s just walk through what what is the plan um you know we’ve we’ve yeah this is that’s a great slide there to help us get oriented for sure well um oh Brian what keep going um all all right well so what
We’re looking at is uh Brian and R’s uh plan for uh taking the original uh Travis 9 the historic nine um and combining it with the adjacent uh nine of the O intercourse designed by Dick Wilson uh in the 60s the other nine of the Wilson course will be returned to
Wetland Conservation um so the the course that we’re going to present is a um cohesive 18 uh really tight uh green to tea walks uh still has that classic feel and we’re we’re working to uh improve that throughout the routing uh but we’ll start at the uh the clubhouse
Um and practice area and driving range uh where the Oleander starts and holes one and two will uh occupy those uh corridors from the Oleander um uh sorry holes one two and three um and then we’ll jump into the Travis uh routing um on their fifth hole which will be our
Fourth hole so the journey is pretty interes if I have that right that’s the hole that’s on the sort of in the center of the of this drawing here that’s right that’s North that’s a that’s a the third uh third whole par three and uh just an
Interesting aside the last visit we made uh nol and I and and Brian were standing on the second green it was just after kind of some Stormy Weather and I could hear the ocean standing on the second green and I got goosebumps uh listening to that and just the the excitement of
That um and the reveal is is hit you in the face uh right away because get up to the to the fourth green and you have um the famous um you know may West hole the punch bowl green standing on top of a sand dun staring at the Atlantic Ocean
Um so that Journey coming out of this Maritime Coastal Forest Pines and and Live Oaks and then you really get into the Sandy scrub Duneland and you’re out there for you know uh for you know a good bunch of holes there on Travis’s original nine where your where your
Cursor is right now now um so uh and the the golf courses marri together uh really nicely uh and our job is going to be to make a uh cohesive feel uh particularly around the bunker strategies off the tea and uh the greens complexes themselves um so uh Brian if
You’d like to add something I’d love to hear uh you know your take on it yeah you did a great job covering that Jeff but one of the things you early on in the process we we didn’t know exactly how we were going to marry the two courses together and that was
Really one of our big challenges and what no said would probably be the most difficult thing you guys have to do is how do you marry these two golf courses and and Jeff and I both did independent routings of how we’re going to go from 1
To 18 on this course and compare notes and they’re exactly the same I think we both understood you know right now the great Dunes course starts down on the the very bottom right of your screen so we won’t be playing the exact same route as as it was before we’re going to be
Coming from you know over there on the bottom left now and so one of the things that we wanted to do is we wanted to make sure you get right out there to the ocean and get to experience that early on in the round I think the anticipation
Will build over the first three and a half holes and then when like Jeff said when you Crest that Dune there on on four green it’s when it’s all right there and I compare it to you know if you were you’re renting a vacation home or you’re staying at the beach somewhere
Along the coast there you know all you want to do get through the dunes and get out to the ocean so that’s what we do and we go we go play around in the dunes for nine holes and then we start kind of making our way back home um so so I
Think you know early on we had obviously a very clear unified Vision on that Jeff and I it was very easy to kind of finalize and and set that routing and and I also want to mention too you know some of the things I talked about
Earlier about how how nol and Aaron were so on board with this project was you know they’re they’re allowing us to do some things even off the gol course that are that are going to make it better talking about varying power lines along the beach road so we can reopen up that
Long view of the ocean it’s going to be you know totally undisturbed now it’s going to seem much less developed than it is currently so just little small things like that that that are really going to kind of take this golf course back to the 20s to to that feel that it
Had in some of those old photos yeah Andrew can you toggle back just one I guess or you can go forward back one first and so yeah so that that right there we’re looking what what green are we looking at there so that’s that’s number three green currently that will be our
11th hole um yep and so the I was just gonna add that’s one of the best greens uh of Travis that are left on this nine it’s completely distinct uh it’s kind of a tilted thre level green with a big lion’s mouth bunker right in the front
You can’t see from this angle uh this photo is all about the ocean and and the dunes and the gulf but it’s a really nice uh short strategic uh Par Four kind of a drive and a pitch type of hole with uh you know Dunes on your left and your
Right it’s a lot of uh a lot of trouble you can get into but this green in particular uh really got us excited and and you know told us or indicated to us that you know Travis’s hand here um so uh this this is one green we’re going to
Restore uh as as close as we possibly can we’d like to expand the putting surface a little bit um you know when he built these greens they were probably running closer to six or seven and I know that uh you know Aaron certainly capable to get the greens uh rolling to
Uh Championship speeds when when needed um but uh so there there will be some expansion and uh on this screen but it it’s just a fantastic putting surface yeah Andrew if you go forward two slides to that historic image there that’s actually the t-shot on that hole
Originally and you can see in the very bottom left corner of that photo is the what was the second green so you know you’re kind of like right up above it playing over this dunescape and and um that’s really the image I think that between that image and the the image of
The May West hole we first saw those when you knew like oh my gosh like there’s un almost unlimited potential out here and um you know that’s visually you know the aesthetic that we’re looking to restore and even expand in that in that area as part of our turf
Grass reduction yeah right because currently a lot like that Dune right there is covered in Bermuda Bermuda grass right now right correct yeah if you go back to the the very first photo there I mean you can kind of see what the aesthetic is currently uh you know
It’s when you’re driving along the Beach Road you only see into the golf course at two points really on the current fifth green and then on the current first p uh so a lot of that is just kind of overgrown biny and a lot of it
Invasive and and so our goal is you know to really clear as much of that as we can open up some views out to the ocean like I said right now you get basically two glimpses of it we’re we’re hoping to get it to where you can see it on four
Or five holes as you play along it and and Brian we you know to that point removing all uh all the Bermuda that we are removing What’s the total we came to with the the acreage what we’re going to end up with yeah we’ll reduce Turf by
About 55% we’ll be close to under 80 acres of turf that they’ll be maintaining one height of cut right and simplifying the process yeah so we’ll have that one that one height of cut through the Fairway and and of course the green and then you know all the all
The native uh sandscapes that we’re going to recreate you know there’s all types of uh you know we sat with the conservation department and going through all the the native plants that we can reintroduce to uh to the dunes and and and see what comes up I mean
Much like the Pinehurst number two this the same same process where they they basically remove they removed all their Bermuda rough and and they waited to see what what came up and they were diligent in picking out uh what they didn’t want and and and leaving what what they did
Want uh that was good for golf so uh this is very much uh that same type of process so people can kind of relate to what we are trying to do out here and one of and well before you go on one of the beautiful things about
This opportunity to and about the the resources that we’ve been given by The Authority you know we’re going to be able to grow a lot of those Beach grasses on site in a in on-site Nursery so you know just fewer things we’re having to import or go find you know so
So just a you know working with the conservation Department’s been been great on that because they obviously they’ve already put a lot of of research and study into what type of plants are natural in these environments and and hey we already have some of those let’s
Grow them let’s grow them by seed and so we’ve already started that process now and so we’ll be able to transplant a lot of that stuff locally yeah I mean obviously um there’s been some not just uh grass growth but there’s been trees um you know that
Before and after picture you clearly are are sort of proposing to take out a few of the trees um what’s what’s that process like in a a natural environment uh sort of a conservation area and um you know it sounds like no’s pretty uh understands the the the need n and the
And the authority understands the need to to to take to do some some bigger things in order to to restore the the natural environment that was there uh when the golf course was first red well yeah that that particular spot there I mean you can’t tell from the
Photos but when you do get into it you know every the under story is All uh is just overgrowth you know stuff that some of it is invasive some of it just comes up naturally on the coast uh but none of that underbrush is protected along the
Left there’s some old scraggly Pines in there real small stuff that are kind of choked out by the shade so all that stuff is fair game uh we do have beautiful beautiful live oak trees uh you know ranging in age from you know 50 to 150 years old throughout the golf
Course and that’s part of the charm um so we’re certainly uh number one we’re not allowed to take them and we’re not looking to take uh those Live Oaks away from the playing experience uh but you know we will we will take some smaller limbs uh and work closely with
Conservation department uh to make sure that we can open up these these uh these Dunes um so uh you know this this spot I think we’ll get really close to what we’re looking for in the before and afters lot a lot of underbrushing in the the sides of holes particularly the the
Oleander holes and holes what are currently four and and five of the great Dunes course you know almost purely impenetrable jungle uh less than a foot off the Fairway so our goal is you know to not disturb and and eliminate the larger beautiful vks but to clear a lot of the understory and
And just open up you know open up views open up air circulation and corridors highlight those make the course breathe yeah exactly yep yeah the Spanish moss is is tells you where you are in the world it also helps you know where which way the wind’s blowing that’s right yeah
Like will you will you can just twiddle your your your beard a little bit too you know if you need a little um Direction well it’s not quite that long but you know maybe we’ll get there you know I’m working on it too um but but also the these before and
Afters you’re showing of of 10 um you just scroll back one um you know you can just see um I I think a lot of natural rainfall over the years and the creep of Bermuda grass and probably some irrigation on the teas has has caused that that swath of moan Turf to kind
Kind of uh overtake these areas so this right in between you know 10 10’s and the Fairway there this is kind of a home run in just simply removing Turf shutting off the irrigation you know redesigning the irrigation and uh and letting those those native plants uh
Grow in and uh often there’s there’s um some you know when the native plants grow in it it keeps the weed pressure down so we just want to give the opportunity for the natives to come back in and read establish these Dune uh habitats that you know we’re really 200
Yards from the water’s edge where where this picture is um taken from so we’re we’re right there in that that beach environment right I think we have one another before and after yeah this is again running along the dun line here right I mean it’s still still
The water the the dun lines to your right the oceans to your right exactly exactly so you’re you’re you’re getting that that uh that Pinehurst feel uh the S Sandy scrub along the outsides of the Hole uh Dunes on your right these are probably the largest Dunes that you’re
Going to encounter uh in the course of the round probably 15 20 feet above uh sea level there um so it is very much uh Low Country uh uh especially as you get away from uh from the shoreline and and moving into you know other interesting uh environments which
Is I think the beauty of this golf course moving in and out of different habitats and uh little microclimates and uh like I said from the forest to the beach to the lakes and the pines and and back into the forest so it’s a really really beautiful walk um even if you
Even if you’re not a golfer so lots to do yeah it’s uh it’s really exciting and uh can’t can’t wait to to see see the work what’s um what is the timeline what we what are we talking about yeah we’re we’re getting close now we’re uh really close to finishing up the
Planning process Jeff and I have been working on specifications and our construction document set we’re hoping to get this thing bit out uh within a month from now and we’ll you know as no mentioned earlier the Pine Lakes course is currently under renovation they’re hoping to complete that project and
Reopen that golf course in October at which point we’ll be able to you know to close down the 27 holes that we’re going to close and and and take off so we’re shooting for November 4th it’s a Monday start date and um kind of Dive Right
Into this thing get to get to spend a winter down at the beach in Georgia which is better than where we’re typically you know working in Long Island or Pennsylvania or somewhere in the late fall so we’re we’re g to be very happy to be in Georgia this
Winter and ideally you know in a in a good scenario we’ll be able to open this course by by Fall 2025 yeah that’s really cool really really cool um you mentioned irrigation uh and obviously that’s one of the big drivers of cost in any golf course project these days what are you guys
Thinking for irrigation and um you know what what were your what what was your thought process uh to get to where you you’re going to end up sure uh well you know certainly we want to like I said reestablish salt top tolerant grass types and uh the design
Of the system is so that we are only irrigating Fairway Turf like Brian said about 80 acres worth of Fairway Turf the rest being uh you know native sandscape U so that’s that’s really what the system was designed around we we don’t want to get any water in the uh you know
In the tree lines or anything like that and just kind of let Mother Nature uh do her thing and because they do get you know there’s plenty of rainfall uh down in Georgia maybe not as much as uh some other places no you can uh correct me on
That if I’m wrong but uh it’s not the wetest place on the coast but um you know plenty of rainfall so we don’t want to add to that uh with you know our irrigation system uh design um so yeah just just leaving plenty plenty of space
For the the native landscape to uh to pop out great I mean a little bit more complicated than a single row system but something that’s relatively uh you know you’re not you’re not going it sounds like you’re trying to trying to put as little out there as
Possible yeah you know you can see in the bottom right hand part of our plan you’ve got the um you know the ninth the eighth and Ninth Fairways there you know it’s a it’s a big wide swath of turf but it’s it’s shared by those two Fairways
So you know I think across at one time at at some point it’s you know four heads across um but we there’s also uh some some Dunes that separate the eighth Fairway from the ninth t’s for safety measures yeah that that line along your cursor so you know the these irrigation
Designers that we’re working with Ian Williams you know these guys are so good uh you know everything’s tailored and customed so those those Dunes are become a highlight of the whole not overgrown with you know with irrigated Turf um so you know in other section of the golf
Course where we just have you know kind of uh corridors between the the Pines on say the our first and second and our 18th holes you know that’s probably only as as wide as two heads um you know throwing back towards the middle and and out towards the edges so um you know
That’s that’s kind of what we’re we’re looking at no I’m gonna bring you back in here um you know let’s talk economics I you know I don’t I don’t know if the cost of the the project is is public record but you know what’s the what’s
The plan for for funding this and um you know what are what are what are the some of the economic impacts that are expected on the back end from from uh doing this project well we’re um we’re hoping to see receive some Capital funding from the state not operational funding but some Capital
Funding for infrastructure um you’re discussing irrigation the original nine holes of the great Dunes that’s left is on a hydraulic system it should be in a museum somewhere but uh my guys are still out there piecing that thing together on on a daily basis basis to
Keep water on the grass and we have taken steps to eliminate a lot of the 360 degree heads and rotate out to 180 degrees or less to try to conserve water but the the conservation signal for water is is important to us but um to answer your question directly we have a
Package that’s going before the authority board for a um a $20 million bond issue that the Authority will have to pay back out of revenues over the next 20 years um and that is uh going to be $20 million for the Reconstruction of Pine Lakes which is ongoing right now
And the revisioning of great dunes and restoration of the the nine holes of great dunes and then U hopefully we have a little bit of money left over to try to do a few other things that are needed on the golf course but um with construction costs these days and I’m a
Recovering general contractor so I understand how these uh construction costs are right now um you know we used to buy a a cubic yard of concrete for $85 now it’s $285 and we just made our pipe order for um for Pine lakes’s golf course and it was a million dollars
Worth of pipe so none of this is cheap um so the bonding um will assist us and help it it’s the only way we were able to get this whole thing off the ground so uh cu the state wasn’t going to give us $20 million for golf that’s probably
Not fiscally uh sound spending in this kind of environment so we’re going to take the risk we’re going to go into debt service we haven’t done it before um and um it’s just it’s that important to us jaal island has undergone um almost $390 Million worth of revitalization efforts
Public private Partnerships building new hotels uh tearing down the old hotels building new ones on the exact same footprint so it’s logical that when you start to get to the end of that line where the there’s not enough vertical of Rehabilitation to do on jeo we start looking at the horizontal so we’re
Looking at our water Wastewater system and golf was just a natural fit because as I said earlier uh the life cycle of all the grasses on J Island have just timed out quite a long time ago we used to have the USGA come do the green
Section come do a study for us every year and U I started here in 2015 they came out 2015 2016 and um Pat I can’t remember what his name last name was but he’s now retired from USGA he came out and he he sent me the same report two years in a
Row and just changed dates and I I called him up and I was like Pat why why did nothing change he said cuz you’re grasses Beyond its life expectancy so I was like well you can always come have lunch with us but I’m not going to hire
You again next year to tell me the same thing so um you know it it’s time um and the golfing Community around here is excited about it um as well as anybody we talk to about it um the the hotels here excited the CVB is excited um the
Community is excited because a lot of people drive from off Island to come here to play golf like these guys said this is this is the only municipal course here I mean you can go to other courses that are semi-private or private but um there’s not a walk- on and play course around
Here that is in this kind of price range that’s meant for you someone of of average means to come play and and that’s why we host a lot of of first te events here for children and and we’ had kids clinics and we have a program called Road Scholars that brings
A retired individuals here and teaches them the game of golf and um it’s affordable and that’s one of the that’s one of the things that we we hope to to retain or we will retain it’s not a hope we will retain affordability so um on the flip side of
That we’re going to have to pay the debt service and we know there’s a a note to pay so we’re going to use some of our um our our bed tax funds that we get from the hotel um to help supplement the revenue from golf to be able to to pay
Our yearly note and um you the the hope is if we get a little bit of money from the state for infrastructure and not necessarily for golf then that can help us out with some of these irrigation Mains and um some of the well structures and some of the hard uh infrastructure
That’s uh going to have to be replaced yeah right so so uh and that’s an interesting uh that you mention it right because the state’s probably much more interested in funding climate resiliency than than than Golf Course right so um talk a little bit about some of the
Decisions you guys are making um with climate resiliency and sustainability in mind as you go through this this project I don’t know if that’s for you NL or for for Jeff or Brian but any one of you I’m sure can speak to it well I I would hope
That Brian and Jeffrey saided they walked in the door and at the interview process and it maybe felt like we were beating them over the head with that when they walked in the door but uh thankfully these two guys got it I mean we have our conservation department
Working hand inand with us during this renovation and the nine holes were taken out of Oleander and returning back to conservation uh we also hired a a company called design Workshop to help us restore it back to green grasslands and nature lands and and wetlands and to
Make it look like a usable area that the public can enjoy and see um you know pollination strips to where honeybees and hummingbirds and and things Thrive and nature thrives and uh restructuring a wildlife Corridor but the biggest thing that I know our golf crews are excited about is getting under that 80
Of Acres of of grass to maintain because right now we’re at about 17 and um I mean just think about the the cutting your chemical and irrigation cost by better than 50% on 18 whole course I mean that’s a hell of a conservation effort right there just right out the gate so um
Yeah sounds like it’s pretty easy but it’s more difficult than than what people think to get a playable golf course that everybody can enjoy and wind up being the star of the show but you’re actually putting less inputs into it than you were just a few years ago and
Uh you there is one last project that I have held out in the back of my mind our wa water Wastewater Plant our Wastewater affluent that goes back into the Jal river is UV treated so I’m in the process of a parallel project to get that a percentage of that water turned
Back into purple pipe recyclable water that I can truck back to the golf course and put into the pond into that brackish Reservoir to where we actually are assisting our Wastewater um efforts and using it with the brackish water to create irrigation water so we’re not just discharging it
As normal and I also I’m looking at taking a water tower um that doesn’t have a well on it offline and filling it full of that reclaimed water to be able to use on the golf course so there’s a lot of conservation environmental thought going into what’s taking place
More so than probably your just average golfer Innovation yeah and well I’d like to add to that because you know no mentioned a key word uh playability uh accessibility affordability uh you know the one of the major infrastructure improvements uh that we’re putting into the great Dunes
Is drainage we’re going to be putting in miles of drainage pipe it’s a very um Flatline property uh so we’re we’re going to be using a special C AG drainage uh that’s assisted by siphon pumps um often we just can’t get the water out uh by gravity flow of course
We can absorb the water it’s a it’s a Sandy site it’ll certainly drain on its own uh but in terms of having a uh you know a profitable business model where we can get golfers on and off the golf course uh and also get the golf course
Maintain on a on a regular basis uh we’re going to collect water through seepage pipes these siphons and and just get it pumped back out to the lake so we we can um just just drain quicker and it’s really going to improve U the playing surfaces the player experience uh removing impervious
Surfaces throughout the golf course no more cart paths um so uh we we will be able to have carts out there we’re going to end up using a limestone screening as a as a cart path material but this this will Shed off into the native so that we
We absorb that water into the ground uh as soon as possible as well as uh collecting it through our you know this is like like I said it um to our our drainage uh contractor tur Turf train company of America this is a generational project for the island and
For the golf courses so uh you know we want to make sure that we do it right and uh so you know any of these uh tital events if we’re getting higher and higher uh ties and storm events we’re just going to be able to drain that uh that much more quick quicker
Right yeah yeah correct me if I’m wrong no but you you guys lose somewhere over like a 100 days a year currently on the o Ender right where it’s just closed because it’s too wet right so yeah it was uh it two years ago it was only open
146 days out of 365 because it was just wet and couldn’t right so a lot of the things that we’re doing are are the unsexy things it’s underground it’s an irrigation pipe it’s in drainage pipe but it’s the things that are going to make this a viable business model going
Forward yeah no I guess uh before we open this up to Q&A and and and I encourage anyone who’s got a question to go ahead and pop it into the the chat there um you know just take us back to the beginning of this right what when you the The Authority was was
Contemplating doing something um what was you know what was the the main thrust right I mean because sustainability is a big word and uh we just recently talked about the climate resilience and we’ve talked about economic sustainability I mean is that was that basically the the the main
Impetus behind this was hey we we have to get this golf course these golf courses better uh open more often and at the same time we can we can we can make it more climate resilient and and restore some land to conservation and uh I mean it it seems like you know looking
Back on it now that you’re so far down the road that it makes a ton of sense but it probably didn’t make that much sense at the time right it was it was a risk we started the process in 2017 with the National Golf foundation and Richard
Singer spent a lot of time with us and through his eyes we were able to see that all those things you just mentioned had come together and nobody ever you know did like the the murder scene with the yarn and put every all the suspects together and tried to figure out what
The culprit is but the culprit went up being the collective of everything you just mentioned will and the fact that you know we couldn’t sustain ourselves financially um the we we were putting too many inputs into the environment that we had less staff and we were having staffing issues we were getting
Ready to get into a window that we didn’t expect of more play um so with all those things if if if if we didn’t have the ability to lean on the rest of the Enterprise operation if we were just a private Standalone Golf Course sitting in a field in Kansas somewhere we
Probably would have been shut down and turned into a row of track homes because that modeling wouldn’t have worked um but we were able to to tread through those years from 2017 to finally putting together a comprehensive golf Improvement plan uh with a vision to be able to correct all those things that
Were hurting us um and and return some area to conservation so um you we’ve done some research as far as state parks this might be one of the largest U return of acreage to conservation uh ever done in the state of Georgia by turning nine holes back
Into a nature preserve that people can enjoy so it’s it’s been a huge undertaking and I haven’t done it by myself that’s for sure uh our prior executive director was a big champion of of what we’ve been able to amass and I’m finally excited to be at hopefully the
Culmination of this phase with um Brian and and Jeff to be able to put this uh this plan in in motion yeah well uh I I want to kudos to you and your team and and Brian and and Jeff uh for thinking about this project in such a holistic
Way uh hopefully everyone on this call has learned learned something uh from this discussion even though we may have gotten in the weeds a little bit on the golf nerd stuff because uh well that’s what that’s what we are so um but we’ve got we’ve got a couple questions here uh
So let’s Dive Right into those um we’ll start with with my guy Tom frell uh Tom frell of dream golf here what are projected greenes um and it’s say going to require some cultural Evolution among the locals who have been playing The Jackal Island course for years for
Virtually nothing he says I’m thrilled about this project uh by the way he grew up in Way Cross his family on SSI and has played the great dun probably 300 times congrats and thanks Count Me In count count him in as a supporter and volunteer so um you know just don’t have
An answer to the to the question there which what are the projected Greens fees but you guys have said you you still hope to you still intend to make this affordable and accessible so well realistically you would you would know that somehow you got to pay for this so
These the we we we still have three we’ll still have three courses so there’s a an ability for us to tear um the golf courses to where you know you have a lower price course and a higher price course and then one in the middle so everybody can afford to play
Golf on jao no matter what your stature is um so yes it’ll still be affordable will one course be a little bit more expensive than the other but probably so because it’ll be a ated experience but um you know right now before Pine Lakes was shut down you could get on Pine
Lakes for 79 bucks and um you know you go to the surrounding courses and you’re into the 11s to 130s to even higher than that so we are definitely not going to be the most expensive uh we will have a course that will be the least expensive
Course in the area I guarantee that but I know there will be some manipulation of green fees according to the experience that you you’re going to be able to have uh well so there’s a there’s a question about Indian Mound which I guess would be the third course the the
One that would be the most affordable is that is that correct yes I mean we’re not going to do anything the Indian M right now part of our phasing plan is the last phase is a two-year data collection phase where after great Dunes reopens we’re going to sit back and just
Collect golfing data and um and analyze that over the following two years and figure out what to do with Indian Mound um I mean right now we’re averaging in the upper 60,000 rounds per year and if you look at 63 holes that doesn’t that those numbers don’t make sense so does that
Number rebound to where we need to keep Indian Mount as 18 um there’s there’s um projections that are in the public domain of from the golf master plan phase that we went through that have uh the possibility of Indian Mound staying 18 holes uh going to nine
Holes or um becoming nine holes and an executive par three course that somebody can go play in an hour and a half so none of those decisions will be made until we have pine Leakes and great Dunes reopened and we collect all that data and um go back to some of the
Partners we originally worked with with National Golf foundation and fair out what the what the solution is nobody has a predetermined idea what that’s going to look like right now I’ve got a question from David Hill uh of the 80 plus or minus Acres of maintain maintained Turf that are being
Removed um and there holes being returned to Nature what do these surfaces become and can they be maintained by the golf maintenance crew or they uh require special skills and credentials to maintain the grounds that will be turned back into conservation at 80 acres is going to be
U mostly walking trails and areas that’ll be able to be lightly moved um they will not be maintained by the golf maintenance crew um we have a public works department and they’ll maintain what needs to be maintained but the vast majority of it is being designed to be
Maintained by control burns fire and the plant material itself so um you if you plant certain vegetation that only gets a foot and a half high and you keep your margins then you really wouldn’t have to do much with it except every few years um and maybe um do a controll burn and
Get it back U down and then let it regrow so we’re it’s very little input as possible well that’s the great thing about working with uh you and and your staff at the J the conservation department is almost like another arm of the golf maintenance staff uh you know
Controlling these under brushed areas and doing the the burns from time to time so it’s really going to work hand inand with our our Golf Course design uh for these native areas and uh like anything does does require um work uh to keep them look looking good uh but
Certainly those those Burns uh are are going to help where needed yeah I’ll add to that too that you know the the acreage that we’re taking out of tur it’s more than that you know not only do those guys not have 80 extra Acres of turf to mow or fertilize or spray but
They also don’t have irrigation heads to fix they’re not going to be trying to unclog unclog drainage pipes right so this total reset of the golf course is going to give these guys more time to focus on the things they need to focus on which is that 80 acres of turf that’s
Going to remain and and by not irrigating those native areas we’re g to not eliminate but certainly we’re going to slow the spread of of unwanted things back into those areas so it it’s not nothing is maintenance-free there’s no such thing but it’s certainly going to simplify the process and
Basically we’re giving the golf course staff a reset on on this acreage the way I look at it great uh we’re sort of bumping up on time but I’ve got two two quick questions um more on the golf architecture nerd side than uh the conservation side but um what other
Travis layouts most inspired you on your design work especially in envisioning the green Contours of the new holes I know you guys did your research we’ve been to a few places uh we took we took NL on a little Travis journey in the Northeast uh this past
Summer we went to Hollywood we went to North Jersey and we saw Troy Al together um so uh I think that was pretty eye opening for null and uh and for Brian and I too I mean Hollywood’s got some of the most impressive inventive and random
Sets of greens you’ve ever seen in the world uh Troy in particular has a lot of uh Travis templates and people don’t know Travis had kind of a template designed for his greens he had I’d say three or four different styles that he kind of mingled and mixed and he would
He had these diagonal swells through his greens that had some abrupt channels and uh he would change the angles of them uh depending on where the flow was in the round he he liked to utilize punch bowl greens or sections in Greens that were punch bow like uh you know Garden City
Golf Club the the 12th hole there the par three is uh well known for being extreme and funky and uh I think we might have a little surprise uh for null when we get out there we might be inspired a little bit by the the 12th
All Garden City uh golf club so there’s a lot a lot to work with not to mention Caper Rundle um which is a if you want to get weird uh go see Travis’s where another another um Golf Course anyone can go play uh just by making a tea time
So uh Brian if you want to add to that yeah I mean Jeff touched on most of them when we have other trips hopefully we’re going to be able to make this spring and summer we’re going to try to get to the Buffalo area where Travis had
Had some work and also two clubs up in the in Ontario that we’d like to see as well just to kind of maybe find a our our ideas and what we’ve really been looking for like Jeff sort of mentioned is is what are those Trends you know we’re not looking to replicate
Individual greens by any means but we do have non greens that we’re going to be building out there that that are going to need to pay homage to Travis and are going to need to tie into the the examples that we have on on the existing
Nine and so we are looking for the things that we see multiple times and how did he do these sorts of things so you know what n told us early on one of our toughest goals is going to be to make this thing feel like an 18old
Travis course and uh you know I think it’s going to be challenging but we’re up for it great um last question from Shane p uh he says he’s an 18-year-old and will be majoring in landscape architecture in college he intends to go into golf course designed who was wondering what
Advice would you give uh about the profession to to be as successful as possible this sounds like someone fishing for an internship that’s all I’m saying it sounds like it Shane call me no I you know Shane when I was a teenager I I reached out to golf course
Architects all the time there was a couple of guys I knew I wanted to go to Virginia Tech that’s where my family went and uh reached out to a couple of guys who had gone through that process did the landscape architecture route I still think it’s a great option I think
You learn a lot about the design industry that way you learn how to how to design how to be an architect have an architect’s eye but really the most important thing that that you’ll do during your college Years is what you do during the Summers I think you got to
Get out there and you got got to experience everything there is in golf you need to work a summer in maintenance you should spend a summer in the bagd drop or in the Pro Shop you should spend a summer doing construction and then you know if you’re so lucky enough to to
Reach out to Jeff and I you know maybe next summer we can we can talk about Jackal but we’re we’re certainly um always looking for interns and and to help grow this industry I had two interns at partk Mammoth that were one was a landscape architecture guy one
Wasn’t and you know I think if you asked either one of those guys they tell you it it was a really a good experience for them neither of them are are in golf at the moment but they’re still you know engaged in this industry and I think
They learned a lot about how how golf courses are built that summer so make sure that you that you spend your time wisely in school and and if you go to a place that’s that’s not focused on golf architecture build your curriculum build your own curriculum so
That that you learn take turf grass classes and soils classes and plant classes make sure you get that full experience yep get be get well rounded get your hands dirty work on your you know visual communication skills graphic design and uh photography is a great a great tool
To train your eye um so you know I I second everything that Brian said and and uh yeah send send your resume work on your raking and shoveling that’s how I got right well um no Brian uh Jeff uh it’s been an absolute pleasure thank you all
For taking time out of your your schedules and your day and um it’s been really informative and I’ve learned a lot and I hope uh everyone who joined us has learned something and look forward to uh getting down to see you guys in Jackal either during construction or or
Maybe for the grand opening and uh it’s excit it’s an exciting project so congratulations than so much thank you thank you for what you guys are doing for municipal golf as well that we it’s a great team Comm of people who care about the game who care about
Affordable and accessible Golf and uh and what it can do in communities and uh it’s always great to talk to fellow Kinder spirits on on these things so thank you have a great day thank you guys thanks appreciate it
