Host, Dale Evans is joined by Andy and Gregg as we sit down with Ryan Muckenhirn from the Vortex Nation podcast for an in-depth conversation about all things bullets, accuracy, hunting, and the lifestyle that drives innovation in the shooting world. From getting to know Ryan and how he got into the industry, some behind-the-scenes stories at Barnes to technical deep dives and laughs along the way, this crossover episode brings two trusted voices together for one powerful conversation.
👉 Make sure to SUBSCRIBE and watch more hunting, shooting, and gear-focused content on our channel.
Check out @VortexNation for even more great conversations and technical expertise.
He half thinks I’m kidding. Yeah, it is really mosquito brain. Correct. Direct translation. Yeah, that’s pretty. That’s awesome. Yeah. Ready to go? I’m ready. Andy. Uh, yeah. Sorry. Five more minutes to death. No, no, no. Just just 30 seconds. Good. Welcome back to another Barnes Bullets podcast. I’m your host, Dale Evans. Today, we’ve uh got a guest. It’s our I think this is the first time that we’ve had a real guest. Yeah. On the podcast. Yeah. The inaugural the inaugural podcast with a guest. So this this should be exciting. Yeah. So we’ve got Andy to my right. We’ve got Greg Sloan to my left and Ryan Muckenhorn. Nailed it. Did I get it? Yes. Smoked it. From Vortex. Here we are. And you are in house which is kind of cool to have you out here in Utah instead of in the Midwest. You guys are out of Wisconsin. Correct. Correct. Yep. South Central Wisconsin. Yeah. Um, what brings you to Utah? Uh, Barnes Bullets, honestly. So, I’m on I’m on a phase one of three adventure here where I’m hunting all the native species of grouse and quail in the lower 48. That’s cool. And so, I’m in southwestern Utah or excuse me, uh, Wyoming tomorrow is opener. Okay. Sage grouse, dusky grouse, and then I’m scooting over to South Dakota and I’m going to pick up prairie chicken and sharpt grouse. So it’s it’s like three hours and Yeah. I could not come to the Yeah. Yeah. Um you are here on a Friday which kind of stinks because you weren’t able to see it going in full operation but you got the tour. Yeah. Um what were your thoughts? You you said that you’ve been to a couple other Yep. ammo facilities before, but uh my biggest thing uh for folks just tuning into this or if you’re just curious about Barnes, I’ve been attached to some sort of manufacturing uh now for about 16 or 17 years. Yeah. U 16 years. And when I walk into a a machine shop or when I walk into a facility, small or large scale, to see intimacy, um the like the size of what you guys got going on and how much control you can have. Yeah. And then being like a rabid user and consumer of your products, I understand why I get singledigit SDS, you know. And I’m not like I’m not I’m not joking. Like um I load like 34 metallic cartridges. And if if I can find a factory solution that saves me time and money and the amount of especially Vortex and Vortex LR that I shoot now in in lie of my own handloaded ammo because I don’t know that I can load to that level of quality. And when I come in here and I I walk around and I see the shop floor and I see custom machines and I see process checks along the way that are extraordinarily detailed, I get it. I understand. Yeah. Yeah. You have a 300 yard indoor range. That’s always fun. Yeah. and and like the people must know. Yeah. So I I understand. Yeah. Um it’s funny you say that. I I’ve never really thought about that, but Greg and I were hand loading some 280 Aley yesterday and today. Um and we were getting I mean we were trying different powders and all this and some powders we were getting like 20 for SDS. So to think that we have this you know loaded ammo literally box shelf ammo um like you said that does get that low SDS. I never really thought about that that it’s like we’re I mean literally our factory ammo that you can buy anywhere off the shelf um has lower SDS that can do better than I can do hand loading if you don’t have the proper powder. We we got it figured out and we ended up getting down to what was it like four? Yeah. Six. Yeah. You had a couple five shot groups that were both single digit. You were four SDS. Five SDS. Yeah. Super cool. Yeah. Which obviously there’s other variables, right? I mean it’s not just Right. Oh, the gun, the chamber, the bore. Absolutely. But it’s capable. Yep. the controls there. And I think you did bring up a cool point because even myself, you know, I’ve been in this industry for quite a while now and so obviously I’m aware of it and what we do here and our processes and our capability, but I think it is interesting. There’s kind of this idea that if I’m hand loading, I’m be building a superior product, right? Oh, yeah. Right. I mean, and I I understand it to a point, but I don’t think everyone always factors in and fully understands what goes into premium ammunition on the quality control side, the development side. How much effort and measurements go into making sure you have an entirely reliable and robust round. You know, the things that we measure and we worry about, you would even think about as a hand loader. You know, so I could come out specific angles and say in a lot of different factors, you’re probably getting a subpar product by hand loading. Yeah. You know, you’re not factoring in everything. You’re not doing all the steps. You don’t have all the tools. You don’t have all the equipment to be able to reach that level of performance when done properly that some of this loaded ammunition can can accomplish. Yeah, it’s it it is it is crazy how good it has been for me. And then for you know, a lot of the folks I run in circles with. You know, I used to hand load for guys because it was convenient for them and I enjoy handloading and now it’s like no, you can just buy it in the box and uh and they do and it’s the same result everybody I talk to and and I just love it. And then now with Harvest too, having having that offering, um the feedback that I’ve been hearing from friends of mine or customers of mutual customers of ours, they’ve just been over the moon and ecstatic about it. So, uh what is happening here is pretty special. So, it’s it’s it’s exciting. I’m honored to be here, too. by the way. I forgot to say that right off the bat, but uh it was cool walking the shop floor seeing seeing that way. Yeah, we’re happy to have you. I’ve been looking forward to it. I know we were kind of exchanging some emails. Um I don’t even remember where it started, but I I wanted intel on uh whitetailed tarmaggan. That’s there you go. Yeah, there was a discussion of pack goats. Yes. So, yeah, you might know where else got involved. Mitchell swears that there’s the tarmaggan in Utah and they’re there. They’re there. Yeah. If you want to go put on 25, 30 miles of hiking around at 11,000 feet to find them. Yeah. It kind of sounds like trying to chase rainbow trout in Wyoming. Like you have to do like a 15 mile thing and maybe maybe you would What? No. No. No. Not sorry. Not rainbow trout. Golden trout. Ah, okay. Yeah. Golden trout. That’s where I meant. Sorry. Yeah. It’s a it’s a 14 mile infill to this spot. I mean, you could do 25 miles for a rainbow. You could. You could. Yeah. Don’t need to. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. That’s where it started. You were kind of exchanged some emails. I pulled Mitchell in. He shared some intel of some spots to go in Utah. He had some experience where he’d kind of targeted them himself without success. Um but yeah, it started and we kind of went back and forth with, hey, you’re going to be in this area. You know, you did definitely make the trip down here, which we appreciate, but uh we’re excited that it worked out and you come down here and be on site. No, it’s super cool. We’re excited. I mean, the your podcast, right? I I I think it’s safe to say it’s something we aspire like to be, right? and and have the following and the engagement and all that stuff. So, when we heard that there was an opportunity to have you on, we were like, “Absolutely.” And it makes all the sense for you to be the first guest that’s on it. Yeah, for sure. Especially as much I mean, you know, Greg’s been on there a few times. Obviously, it’s uh it’s a big podcast that gets listened to around our facility, everything. So, yeah, I I I go with that like it makes a lot of sense for you to be our inaugural guest. And with that, I mean, this is kind of the first time that I get to, I guess, interview somebody because I feel like it’s always just been people that I talk to on a regular basis anyway, but I would love to know about Ryan, like where you came from, like how you got into the industry, and kind of give us a little brief backstory. Yeah. So, I have a tendency to talk a lot, so feel free to give me the hand signal. That’s fine. Apparently, people love We’re We’re not going to do your 10-minute talks that actually only go like go like 45 minutes. Apparently, our uh audience says that they want long form content, so you are more than welcome to to go for it. Uh so, a little bit about me. I’m I’m from Minnesota originally, central Minnesota, little farming community. Um my introduction to guns, uh was my grandfather at the age of five. Uh the indoctrination began. put a a 1911 in my hands, uh, a 38 special Jframe, a Ruger 1022, and we just shot and shot and shot. And, um, he he was a gun guy through and through, but, he was as much of a gun guy that like a Korean War vet that then also had a job and a family could have. So, he like very utilitarian guns, not like eclectic or anything like that. and um and he got me crazy about bullets pretty pretty early on. And in in trying to inspire um safety or educate on safety on like capabilities of of cartridges, he would take a yellow pages book and he would duct tape it shut and then we would shoot into it with different calibers and we would count the pages that a particular projectile would would penetrate to. And we would look at deformation and things like this. And he’s explaining like hollowpoint versus, you know, round nose versus solids, etc. And uh he got me my first reloading press. I can’t remember if I was like 12 or 13 for Christmas and I was mortified of it. And because I was I was like I’m manufacturing explosives in my basement, right? And um and it took me like probably an honest year to two years to actually pull the handle on the thing the first time. The first cartridge I loaded was 223 Remington and uh and then it just like snowballed. Then I thought I was going to make money by by loading my ammo. Like I’m and I’m going to shoot coyotes and I’m going to like sell the hides and this is going to become a business enterprise and then I’m I’m going to retire by the time I’m 20 22 somewhere in there. Um turns out you just buy more reloading presses and tools. Um and then uh fast forward a few years at at 15 like I was obsessed with guns, the history of guns, um their mechanisms, uh their their lineages, etc. And there’s a gun shop in my hometown, Little Crow Shooting Sports. It’s still there. 18482B202 Circle Street in Hutchinson. Um, and I would ride my bike there or I’d like I’d get on the wrong bus from school so that I would get dropped off near there and I would walk there. That’s awesome. And I’d go like just walk the racks and like learn about stuff. and and the owner, this was unbeknownst to me at the time, my father moved to to Hutchinson in 1983 and started with this electrical contracting outfit that had a sport shop. And the sport shop sold guns and the guy who ran the counter was the owner of this gun shop. And he put my dad up for like three years until he and my mom got married. And uh so he knew my dad when my dad was like a punk and uh he knew who I was like right away. And eventually he’s like, “Hey, why don’t you just come here every day after school and I was like, “Okay.” And uh like I got to unload a thousand cases of Winchester Super Targets from the back of a semi. That was like my first that was it was 1,088 cases. That was my first assignment. And um worked there for like seven years. And uh so slinging guns, selling ammo, uh mounting a lot of scopes. Um and that was that was like my my true baptism into the industry, I suppose. And then I got picked up by um a class 3, class 7 manufacturer um also in my hometown. And we also had like um we’ll call it a retail division sort of where we would make products outside of our like law enforcement and and military and and then civilian contracts for like three gun especially uh magazine tube extensions for shotguns and like little widgets, gadgets, lickies and chewies that you would uh you know hang on your AR or your shotgun or whatever. And um did that for like four and a half years. And then uh I was a competitive shooter. Shot all around the country for MultiGun and USPSA. And um about a year and a half into that gig, I was at Shot Show and my accountant’s like, “Hey, you’re going to carry this brand, Vortex.” Nobody had heard of Vortex. This is like 2011. And I’m like, “What?” And so he sends me down uh me and my boss down to the the show floor and we go meet now four of my co-workers and they they give me the elevator pitch on the brand and and I love telling this story. I was like I was I was 22 and and I’m like yeah respectfully no like I’ve never heard of you guys like like what you’re saying is crazy you know like and and I declined and and my accountant’s like well too bad you’re going to like figure it out and did like four or six months of market research on the company and read every manual watched every video on YouTube um was on every forum back when forums were the things you know. Yeah. And uh it’s like wow these guys really got it figured out. ended up picking them up and integrating them into our line and we sold the snot out of Vortex Optics. Kept shooting, kept shooting, and uh eventually I got an email from our VP said, “Hey, if you’re ever in the area, swing by.” And um I was like, “I’ll let you know if I’m in South Central Wisconsin.” He’s like, “Hey, how’s next Tuesday?” And then that was one of four interviews and now I’ve been there for 11 years. Wow. Yeah. So September 8th was was 11 years. That’s cool. Yeah. Um don’t shoot competitively anymore. I just put all my focus on hunting, mostly Western State stuff. Uh, still handload uh quite a bit. Love doing it. I think I’m up to seven presses now. Um, and still love guns. I’ve never grown tired of this industry. So, it’s been now I think 21 I think I’ll be 22 years in February uh that I’ve been doing guns and I’ I’ve still never shown up for a day of work. So, yeah, it’s kind of neat. Yeah, I dig it. Yeah, that that’s super cool. Yeah, that’s a really cool story. for the youngsters out there who don’t know what yellow pages are. Yeah. Right. It’s an old school phone book, right? Like the dial phone or like one landline. Um but no, I mean talk a little bit about too like you obviously have a strong affinity for barns. Like I think you’re not shy about that which I love, but where did that come from? When did you start with Barnes, you know? Uh one whitetail dough, fourtown, Minnesota, uh one 243 Winchester and one not Barnes Bullet. Okay. And um you know there used to be this this thing when I was younger um so this is like I was 16 or 17 where when people were talking about like what kills a critter? It was energy. Energy is what kills it. Seven rem if you’re not shooting you know energy you’re not you’re not coming to the table with a dead critter. And and so I was going to get a seven rem. And I I don’t really know why but um I did have a 243. And so the only way I could get energy is by increasing velocity. And so um I picked an off-the-shelf offering and I’m not going to mention it here. Um uh super users could probably deduce what it was, but it was a very light for caliber projectile that offered a lot of energy. And um I I started thinking I was actually reading books on um African big game hunting and they were talking about anchoring shots and shooting for skeletal structure. And I’m like, “Okay, I don’t want to track things. I want to I want to break them down. And if I if I break both scapulas um and likely sever the spine that whatever I shoot is going to drop right there. And so I I targeted a uh a scapular shot on this white tailed dough at a relatively close distance with this light 6 millm projectile and encountered what uh I later learned was called a flap injury where the bullet effectively grenades just submal when it hits bone. Um, thankfully some jacket material um punched the plural lining and deflated along. I ended up recovering this deer, but it was atrocious. And I said, “There’s there’s a better way to do this.” And so by that time, I I started handloading. I started buying bullets. Um, and and some some don’t they’re not even in existence anymore. And the first one that I I fell into was the MRX. Yeah. And uh I haven’t been home in a while. Um, but if I raid my reloading room down in my my parents’ basements, I’m I’m sure I have a couple of those things left or if I look around, I probably have some loaded 308 MRX ammo. And uh I ended a whitetail because I I’d started reading about barns and started buying load manuals and you see the pictures, you know, and I’m like, God, I really want one of them bullets. Uh, and uh I ended a white tail, very large body. This is northern Minnesota, like not terribly far from the Canadian border, so they grow them pretty thick up there. And uh so like frontal shot um just below the white patch of the throat, exited out the rear ham and then went through like a two and a half, three inch diameter popler tree behind it. Wow. Never caught the bullet. Uh and that thing folded like a $5 tent. And then um I I I recreationally study anatomy. And so like I I do a lot of kind of low-level necropsies on things that I shoot. looking at at the like the pathway through this thing and I’m I’m thinking about other things that I’ve shot and and like how bullets behave when they encounter that medium and this is different. It’s very different. And I’m like, “Wow, this is this is wild.” It’s like you put a ninja bullet blender at 2700 feet per second through this thing. And then I started reading more on on projectile design and and then understanding how energy works and how energy doesn’t work. And then a light bulb clicked. It’s like, oh, if I can maintain 95% of my mass while I’m traversing a body cavity. I’m I’m and I’m not shedding mass air or go losing energy at an exponential rate. I’m actually doing better. And then that was it. Then then I just hooked up on it. And now I’ I’ve stopped counting the number of critters that I’ve shot with TSXs, LRXs, TTSXs. Um I shot varmint grenades for a long time when I was still hunting hides. Uh very effective bullet. Um, not not great for penetration, but that was ideal. Um, and uh, yeah, it’s it’s my go-to. Here and there, I’ll use other bullets if I’m I’m curious about how things work or what they’ll they’ll do, but if I’m hunting uh, and if I’m if I’m like being very honest, like I travel a lot to hunt. I’m not a super wealthy guy. Um, and if if it’s like the opportunity that I have on a game animal and I’m a thousand miles, I’m 1400 miles from home right now. I’m hunting birds, so it’s a little bit different. that, you know, I’ve got an elk hunt in Idaho uh in October and it’s a 29-h hour drive and I’m bringing one gun and I’m probably going to have one opportunity and I can’t dictate that that opportunity is necessarily a broadside shot. I might have a hard quartering away. I might have a frontal and like my thought is is I want to deliver payload to target with without hesitation or question and this is the bullet that has done that for me. So routinely, I’m talking dozens and dozens and dozens ahead of of game that I’ve killed over the past two decades. Um, and then and people I know that I’ll call them converts, if you will, or that I’ve loaded for. We’ve we’ve all experienced the same result like target your exits. Um, that’s what that’s what I do with Barnes where if I don’t have a a you know broadside shot, I target my exits and um they just pile drive whatever I shoot. And it’s it’s a bullet that I’ve come to trust. And I I talk about that a lot on our podcast, too. Rifles you can trust, optics you can trust, and bullets you can trust. So, that’s the last thing I think about when I’m in the field. You know, if it’s if it’s that one opportunity on day six, hour 11. You know what what uh what do we do? Well, we’ve got a bullet that we can trust and put it on and lay it down. Nice. Yeah. Um, one of the things that you talked about and you talked about it early on there, right, is talking about um, trying to put down an animal in its tracks, right? And and you didn’t want to track. Like what made you want to do that? Cuz I think we’ve talked about it on a podcast before, right? Like I always feel like I’ve always been a shoulder shooter because I don’t like to track animals. So I’m originally from the southeast, like in northeast Florida, southeast Georgia, like that type of area, right? Swampy, thick. It’s like you don’t want to track an animal because if it gets a hundred yards, you might lose it because it’s water or something like that. So, what made you kind of want to become a quote shoulder shooter? Sure. Two parts. Uh environment was a big one. So, in that part of the state, north northwestern Minnesota is also a swamp. Yeah. So, a lot of tamarack, spruces, uh and then sawrass. And you know, we didn’t wear like western boots when we were going out to our deer stand. wear rubber boots. Um because it’s just wet and you know if a a white tail lays down in 4 foot tall sawrass like you got you either have to have a blood trail or you got to just stumble upon it uh to find it. And then two of the the really curious part is I I don’t particularly like killing things. And so uh to to lay it down right then and there, then that that part’s over and and that part’s over pretty quick. Um, and it just, you know, it’s a, I don’t know, a more honorable or prideful thing, I think, maybe, uh, to be able to do that because nobody likes taking a follow-up shot, right? It happens. Like, we’re all kidding ourselves if if we say it’ll never happen. Um, it’ll always happen. Um, but, uh, yeah, so I I wanted a bullet that that could absolutely as close to certainty guarantee that what I shoot is anchored. Yeah. Right then and there. And I can count on one hand the number of times that I’ve had animals take a step um to I think my furthest recovery with a barns is about 60 yards. Okay. Um and it was a very long shot on the outside of the um of like the function window of the bullet. And it was also after I had shot a white tail 11 minutes prior in that same spot. So um I’ve got a lot of theories on why things run when they get hit. One of them is just uh condition of a target alertness. Yeah. And uh but uh that that was actually the most uh most external hemorrhaging I’ve ever had on a on a game animal. So that was a very easy followup. Just walked down a big red carpet and picked her up. But yeah. So my next question about the things you were talking about and and I’m sure other guys got questions as well so hang tight. Yes. Um, you were talking about, you know, rifles, scopes, and bullets are are the three things that you can kind of always rely on, right? That if you know that it’s going to do it. Why do you think people and and maybe we’re getting way deep really early on, but why do you think that people always want to buy the most expens most expensive rifle, most expens expensive optic, and then go cheap on their ammo when the ammo and the bullet is the only thing that touches the animal? Yeah, that’s a really good question. Um, I think that in the US we’ve been conditioned, and maybe not just the US, but globally, we’ve been conditioned to think that like money always buys you the best. And sometimes that’s the case, right? But like if we audit our product line, like I can sell you $149 rifle scope. Um, and I know guys that go to Africa and go kill 30, 40 head of planes game with them. I know guys that have taken Doll sheep and stone sheep with Crossfire 2 rifle scopes. They’re 150 bucks. Um, and I’m not saying that’s like a risky proposition. Uh, but then like with ammo specifically, I think a a lot of this also then comes from um upbringing and culture. So in my neck of the woods, and this is diminished quite a bit now because younger people are doing different things, but we had like hunt camps and like everybody shot a Remington 760 or a Winchester Model 70 or a 94 or a BAR. And you know, Uncle Paul, he had a 270. He was kind of out there a little bit. Um, we all shot hot sixes and then everybody shot, you know, brand X, Y, or Z’s soft point. And it had to be 180s because 180s were better than 165s. And and I think a lot of that, if you’re not a really dialed gun or bullet guy, gets lost. like the ammunition can sometimes become an aside in the thought process, but but only because so and so before me said it was better. And uh and then when I think about ammunition and bullets and and ballistics especially, and I mean I’ve been in the industry now for a long time, Greg, you can attest to this. It’s it’s pretty recent that all of a sudden this is like open source information that anybody can can get. You know, I can remember my first PRS match. This would have been 2014. Um data was not wildly published and widely available. Like it was it was like you knew a guy who had a 260 and happened to shoot um 123 scenars and he could give you some data and then you could chronograph it and you could extrapolate it. and like ballistics calculators weren’t a thing and social media wasn’t a thing and um you know these these YouTubers and websites that are doing independent ballistics tests weren’t really a thing and so it’s also it’s new too. So the the information that that consumers have to them now I think is going to change that and I think I think people are going to start um understanding more about what is actually touching the animal, how it works and what is that mechanism that actually kills the animal because it’s not something that’s really been talked about for a long time. Yeah, I mean I again not not that long ago, 20 years ago, the talk of the town was these super high-speed semifangible projectiles as being the deadliest things in the woods. You want that thing to dump all its energy on target. And uh and you know what bullet I’m talking about. Yep. And I mean you can talk to I mean any number of elk guides and and they’ll tell you no, we don’t allow those in the camp. And it’s not a fault of the bullet. It’s just the wrong bullet in application. But it’s like tribal knowledge that kept getting passed down and like the wrong magazine article written about about what works and what doesn’t. And I think that’s where a lot of that comes from. I I see it changing though. Like the feedback that I get from our podcast because we talk about bullets more than we talk about holidays. Um the feedback that I get is is people are are like waking up to it and they’re they’re understanding now um that that is vitally important. Like that makes or breaks the hunt. Um, so can your rifle, so can your optic, but like that is the last thing, right, that leaves your barrel on its on its journey to success, right? Um, and and so people are I think they’re catching up. Yeah. Oh, my turn. Sure. Okay. Mine’s a selfish question. Um, you’re going on an Alcon October. Yeah. Totally typical. Um, what are you using? Uh, Vortex LR1 190s out of my 300 Win Mag. Okay. Okay. So, this is cool. I had that rifle put together uh from the former Remington Custom Shop for my dad uh because he decided to retire or well it was kind of a false retirement. He’s not going to listen to this. He doesn’t know how the internet works. So uh he had a false retirement and so he he got onto an elk hunt and my dad is not a hunter. He’s he’s like every decade or so he’ll wander around the woods with a rifle and so I outfitted him top to bottom new outerw wear packs, knives, bullets, boots, backpacks, the whole thing. And uh so I had him this um the 700 built in in 300 Win Mag and uh immediately just bought Vortex LR in 300 Win Mag. Uh and the barrel was was handpicked by a good buddy of mine that used to work up there. Uh now he’s at Mac Brothers. Um and so it’s a it’s a match grade 5R and it’s a fast barrel. like it’s unusually fast and the and this is not an early lot of LR but like they were moving out of that gun at like 2960 and I’m like wow that’s moving and uh this is before I was into the suppressor game and and so I had that gun chopped uh like two and a half inches about four weeks ago five weeks ago I was like I wonder how much I’ll give up and so I I had some newer lots of that and I’m still at 2850 and I think Box posted his 2880 on that load and Uh I was I was with uh a couple of guys from our marketing department. Um one of them just is finishing his elk hunt right now. Was successful with it. And uh he’s a bow guy, not a gun guy. And I said, “We’re changing this. We’re we’re getting you a new gun guy.” And like I’m going to show you how turrets work. We’re going to talk about chronographs, the whole nine yards. And so we’ve got a 150 yard range. And um I do the hastiest zero I I’ve done in a long time uh with this rifle. Uh shot it over my Garmin. I got five rounds of data, single digit SDS. Um, dialed my 600 yard coordinate and laid down a 4 inch group three shot at on a hot barrel. And I’m like, what? This is why I don’t load 300 Win Mag because like I I don’t have to. Yeah. Um, and so I I ended up ordering uh I think four or five more boxes. I just actually were delivered this week. So, I’m going to go check those and see how how different they are than the lot that I have. But that’s what I’m running and all the confidence in the world in it, too. So that’s a monster bullet. Yeah, that is that is a monster bullet and it shoots so well out of that gun. Um yeah, and I’m I’m confident with that one to actually seven. So seven will be my I hope for like a 71 yard shot, but seven will be my my max envelope on that. Oh, very cool. Yeah. And you said that you haven’t when we were talking earlier, you said you have two elk hunts this year. I do. Yeah. Uh the other one uh well you’re the first to know about it, but uh we’ll be we’ll be hunting in Montana with the with the 300 superwism. Nice. Yeah. So, it’s funny. I do this a lot uh on our podcast. Like I put together something just for the podcast and then it like either lives at work or it lives in my safe and never gets used again. Well, so we threw together that that first 300 superwism and uh can we call it that? Can we call it superwism? Absolutely. That that’s what we’ve been calling it. And uh the rifle’s nuts. I mean, it’s it’s it’s like an honest everybody talks about like it’s like a half minute gun, but what that means is like most of the time you shoot a few groups and they might measure around a half. Like what if you did a hundred groups and then you like measured it? Um you could come up with what that gun is actually probably statistically capable of. But this thing is obscene uh how well it shoots. And um it’s a work gun. And you know, my podcast co-host Mark just kind of adopted it. And so now it’s like Mark’s gun and not really. I mean, but I I never built one for myself. And so when we were in discussions about this, um, they’re like, “Well, what are you going to shoot? You guys going to share a rifle?” I’m like, “Don’t I got to share a rifle? I’m going to build one.” And so I I ordered an action uh what day is it? Today’s Friday. I ordered an action on Wednesday. So it’ll be there uh when I get back. I’ve got a barrel under my desk and I don’t have a stock or a trigger yet. Uh but we’ll make that up as we go and hopefully I have that thing built by about November one and awesome and then uh data downrange after that. But yeah, so we’re gonna go what action did you go with Mac Brothers Element? Perfect. Yep. Yep. Yeah. I just uh finished putting together a 7 PRC off an element. Unbelievable action. Awesome. $1,000 action. It’s 19.9 ounces. Yep. Nitrided through and through. Everything’s steel except for the cocking piece is titanium. But uh not even the [ __ ] me the shroud. Um beautiful action. Really fell in love with that. Uh for a builder action, I don’t there is no better value on the market. No, I agree. I’m super excited to do another one off. Yeah. Well, you’re taking notes, right? Cuz you don’t have a 300. Of all people. The fact that you don’t have this gun, I feel like it should be illegal. It’s probably true. We talked a little bit about this and I know I’ve told the story before, but my uh when when the lab first messed with this 212 bore rider, um you know, the 300 Super Wisdom is an awesome name and that’s the one we go with, but we kind of nicknamed it the the poor man’s 300 Norma when we started messing with the 300 Wisdom case as a you know, vehicle, a way to launch this 212 bore rider on a long action obviously with a 1 and8 twist barrel. But at the time I had a uh 338 Laaua rifle and it was like well I can just build a 300 Norma and so that’s the route I went. So I shoot the 212 bore rider but out of a 300 Norma and I actually do need to build a 300 Super Wisdom um for multiple reasons. But you know we even mentioned this a little bit like you’re burning a lot more powder. Yeah. And you’re not getting a big return. I mean, I’m I mean, what are you getting out of your your 300 supers and 212? Your 28 20 28 20 28 25, right? 2825. I mean, I think I’m like 2925 2950 depending on the load, but and I don’t remember the exact charge off my head, but I’m probably 15 grains more power. Yeah. And and uh it is a model of efficiency. Um and but its capability is is just bananas. like how that thing eats wind and and when it hits target too like we’ve done 9 945 is the furthest gel that we poked 50 inches of penetration. We we had we had full expansion at 20 mm of depth into the block and it’s like what is going on with this? And like it’s going to kind of be my everything rifle because it’s not going to be heavy, you know? It’ll it’ll scope at about 8 pounds scoped and canned. Um, and there’s nothing you can’t kill with it. And it’s also not undue from a recoil perspective because it’s not that stout of a charge, right? Like it’s it’s in the upper 60s. And if if anybody loads 300 wisdom, you know, depending on what powder you’re running, you can run handily into the 70s um with conventional projectiles. And it it it it’s a very pleasant recoil sequence, too. I’m assuming that has to do with like just the bearing surface of the bullet being as abbreviated as it is compared to a full, you know, shank on on a lot of other bullet designs. Super pleasant to shoot. It’s torquy. I can feel it like you can feel an eight twist and you can feel a bullet that long. Uh but it it’s it’s it’s pretty neat. Several guys that work at build them. Um the builder that that put together our gun, I think the first day he had 15 calls uh when we launched that podcast on whatever this is, I need it. and um the number of of Instagram DMs and Facebook DMs and and uh emails that I get to my work like what’s the load data and now it’s like you don’t have to you you can just buy it. Yeah. And and their jaws just hit the floor. Like guys are super excited about that. Yeah. Well, every time you guys talk about it, right, our sales go woo. So like if we can schedule like a weekly thing that’d be fantastic. talk about it or just give us a week heads up so we can like restock a little bit because every time they talk about it we sell out as well. Yeah. Hopefully here soon we’re going to be loading more. I got some shells on the way and we’ll be loading more 300. Yeah. I think that about the time that this launches I think we should be like 3 days out from it being relaunched. So if you’re listening Yeah. Scary proposition to put time on that. Well, I mean I I I can also just move this around as we need it. That’s fair. And you know, more on that that cartridge, it’s not that big of a deal to configure the gun with it. When we had started that project, there was not a reliable way to get a Tika to do it. And now there is. Um, and like that is probably the most economical way to do this. Uh, if you’re thinking about building a 300 WISM with a 212 spec, you just need an eight an eight twist tube. Um, and then you need an unknown munitions, uh, extended magazine and bottom metal. Yeah. Bolted together. And And then if you don’t already have a long action, uh, you need an extended bolt stop, too, but that’s a $30 part. And so, not an invasive procedure. There’s not a whole bunch of, you know, you’re talking about your 300 wasn’t built and you’re opening up feed rails and you’re modifying port diameters and lengths and correct. Uh, this is a barrel and, uh, two bolts. Yeah. And a pin. Yeah. I was going to ask like for the for the listeners who don’t have this like this is not something you can pick up off the shelf, right? That the firearms like what does it cost if somebody wanted to go shoot this? Sure. So, if if I was going to like napkin math this out and I was going to using the Tika T3X as the the base platform. So, if you don’t already have a T3X, uh they’re all the same. So whether you buy a Roughtech at at $1,400 or a T3X light at at 600, it’s the same action. Um, you’re going to need a a magnum bolt face. So, you know, 300 Win Mag, 7 mag. You could use a Wisdom as a as a starting point. I recommend getting a like a 300 Win Mag or 7 Rem so that you have the action length right off the bat. Yeah. Um, the Unknown Munitions kit will be just under 300 bucks for the magazine and the bottom metal and a barrel. Um, which if you get a hold of like preferred barrels, you get a hold of like Dylan over there and you say, “Hey, I want an eight twist 30 caliber blank 22 to 24 inch.” Or you do it in 20s. I I’ve talked to guys now that have built 18s on these and they’re still getting, you know, low to mid 27s. Yeah. And like I know what happens at 2600 feet per second with this cartridge uh with another little project that we’re working on. Um, you you you breach 2700 feet per second, you this thing is the viability is nuts. Um, but Dylan can can spin you up a a pre fit Tika barrel, eight twist Sammy 300 wisdom chamber. That’s the other beautiful part, too. There’s no custom throating going on. You you know, you don’t have to worry about free and you don’t have to worry about lead. It’s a Sammy 300 wisdom chamber, right? Um, and he’ll do a prefitit 300 wisdom. You’re 765 bucks into that. So, you have your gun, um, whatever whatever cost if you already have it or, you know, on the low end probably about 600 for that. And then probably about a G to get the barrel and magazine components and then they’re functional. Yeah, you’re 1500750 into it. I mean, you can go all out on the stock and now you’re going to be above two. But yeah, you can get into it for Yeah, you can go as crazy as you want, right? But like $1,500 rifle to shoot this is not astronomical. Right. No, because there’s a lot of factory guns that are 1,500 bucks. Yeah. And uh we use Tikas a lot at work. Most of my test guns are Tikas. um just because they’re they’re such a reliable system. And then we’ve changed the barrels and and the the actions are so true and the prefitit options out there are so good that like we burn down a barrel. So we use two identical 65 Creedors that we just alternate so that we get some some life out of them. And my team doesn’t shoot that much, but you know, we probably burn a barrel every 12 months. Um and then I just got prefitit barrels on reserve. Just rip the barrel off, put a new one on, and life is good. um you don’t have to fuss around with head spacing or goofy stuff like that and you’re just ready to be operational again. We can do it in the in the garage, but uh really good vehicle to use it on. Um with that magazine out there, uh feeding and function is flawless. Um you can also use a Remington 700, you know, long action. Um start with a a Magnum again so that your internal box is correct and your feed rails are correct, right? Otherwise, you’re going to be doing a little uh Japetto work in the machine shop. Um, I know guys that have done them on Savages now, uh, and a Winchester Model 70 of all things, but, uh, that was a concerted effort. That was that was a lot of goofing around. Um, and then builder actions, too. You know, if you want to if you want to do this on, you know, like what I’m doing in element action and using Hawkins precision bottle, like this is all pretty high-end stuff, but trying to build a pretty specific rifle, right? Uh, I would have done a Tikka if the magazine would have existed at the time that that we started that project. So yeah, the Tika builds are actually pretty interesting. I I mean I’m definitely familiar with the gun, the platform. We use them, you know, we have every rifle manufacturer in the safe, right? Um we have Tikas as well as everything else, but I had never personally done a build off a Tika until about a year ago. I put together a 6mm Creedmore for my brother as like a Predator rifle. Um and he he purchased a Tika T3X and 308. I ripped the barrel off. He bought a McMillan. I think it’s the Game Warden or Game Scout, whatever the short action. Um, and then he got a uh I think it was a carbon six pre fit carbon barrel. I slapped it all together, you know, with our precision match 112 ammo. It’s shooting literally half MOA all day long. And I was like, “All right, here you go. It’s done.” Yep. You know, bolt some stuff together. Yeah, it’s pretty cool. They’re an awesome platform to work off of. Yeah, I was I was kind of curious with that preit because I’ve messed with a few prefitits before. You know, I’ve done some Remenage stuff. I’ve I’ve done, you know, pre- fits off savages with a barrel nut, you know, setting head space. And so I was kind of interested to see how it head space. And so, I mean, when I threw the barrel on, I grabbed the gauges and checked and I’m like, that’s spot on. Right on. Yeah. You wouldn’t mess with it. And and it’s it’s an economy rifle in the scheme of rifles that are out there. Um, when you get into like the collet type barrel nut guns like the Savages or Ruger Americans or, you know, Mosberg ATRs, things like that, you’re going to save a little more money because they don’t have to worry about shouldering a barrel, right? Um, so they just thread the shank and then you use the collet and that’s fine, too. Like I I’ve done a couple guns like that. I I prefer a shouldered barrel. Um, almost just more aesthetic than anything. Absolutely. Yeah. I don’t need to necessarily look at that big barrel nut on there and then I don’t have to relief cut a stock and Y. Yeah. No, Tik is a good way to go. That is, I think, the the very very keen and economical route to do that. Uh, but sky’s is the limit. Yeah. I mean, if you if you want to Yeah. You can go you can go way high. Yeah. And I know like back to like you saying you’re surprised I don’t have one. It’s on the list and about 10 others, right? But I will say I’ve had a few people reach out. I know I talked to people at the shows this past year with the 212 success, you know, and and interest because of the Vortex Nation podcast and story with the the ultimate long-range hunting rifle, all that. You know, I had guys they they want to like rethink it, you know, they’re like, “That’s awesome.” And they’re intrigued, but it’s like, “But what if I took a 7 PRC and neck it up to 30 count?” It’s like I don’t think you’re going to gain anything. No, I I mocked one of those upuh cuz one of my guys uh we call him Magnum uh because he likes big stuff. And so he bought his little Magnum, which is a 7PRC uh big 28 Nosler guy. Uh he he’s like, I think this would be a really good case candidate for it. And I don’t disagree with that. Like 7PRC is a really intelligently designed case. And so I just went down and threw a a 30 caliber expander band roll and a die and and uh ran it out and then did a little case study and I think you get about a grain to a grain five more H2O capacity um out of the 7 PRC, but I think that depending on whose brass I was measuring with 300 wisdom, like I could also change that as well. Yeah. And I don’t like I think it would be a brass availability thing that would move you into the 37 PRC Wildcat. Um because there’s there’s probably more readily available 7 PRC brass. We’re very fortunate. We use 300 Wisdom for um recoil profile analysis at work. So I think you know to the tune of about 60,000 pieces a year. So we have uh these big bins that I can Scrooge McDuck dive into at work. Uh, so I have an unlimited supply of 300 wisdom brass. Yeah. Uh, which works out pretty good. Um, and and again, I think 300 Wisdom is a very very balanced case from a design perspective. It’s very strong case. Um, longevity is outstanding compared to a lot of other 30 caliber Magnums like 300 WeatherB. I get two loads on and and then I lose my primer pockets like they’re toast. And um, it’s a good it’s a good cartridge. I think a a 37 PRC is is also cool, but probably unnecessary steps for diminishing well, not diminishing return, but marginal gain. Marginal gain for sure. I actually did the exact same thing you just went through and that’s exactly where I came up about a grain grain and a half and it was like I just you look at propellants and where you’re going to be with charge and velocity and you know I bring that up because the 300 Norma build I did it’s absolutely not worth it. I mean, it was I already had the gun. I already had the receiver, that Magnum bolt face, you know, that large lapoo bolt face. And if you knew what I went through to modify my action and stock after the fact with machine work to get a wide extended box to fit two rounds, Yeah. it’s like, no, this is not the route to go. And in the end, what am I gaining? 100 feet per second. But if you look at the, like you said, it’s efficiency. That’s where your wisdom with the 212 is all about efficiency. You don’t have to launch at 3,000 ft per second. You don’t have to launch at 2900. Like you even brought up the 2700 mark. You start to look at the down range. I mean, I talked a little bit with Dale about this. You know, if you’re a I’m going to shoot out to 4 500 yards. You could argue all day long why the 300 superm with the 212 probably isn’t needed. Oh yeah. You know, it’s not. But you go 500 yards pass. And you’ve proven this with we’ve talked about your other project and I want to steal your thunder there and talk about We talk about it like it’s if you want Yeah. Bring it up. um 308 Winchester launching the 212. Yeah. And so um I was bored one night and I was on the Hodgen uh reloading data center website just looking at stuff because like this is my entertainment and I was like oh I wonder what the heaviest bullet they catalog uh publish low data 4 in 308 Winchester is 215 burger and like that’s a long bullet. bullet and it’s got monster bearing surface. And so I’m like doing redneck pressure analysis in my head and I’m looking at their CO at 2.810 and I’m like, “Oh yeah, no, they’re not afraid of pressure in this.” And I’m looking and like they’re shooting that bullet at Sammy CO at 26. I’m like, “Oh yeah, I can get a 212 LRX going 26 out of a 308 without even trying.” And and so I thought, “Okay, am I going to go with small pocket brass for a little more integrity?” Um, and nope. I just went with once fired Hornady from the range bucket literally uh dug through the I went down to the lab we so we’ve got a a lab at work a reloading lab and uh dug through the bucket found a bunch of Hornady brass ran it through the universal decap die and worked up a load uh in a very inappropriate gun in a Kimber mountain ascent by the way perfect um no uh so 10 twist barrel so they didn’t they didn’t gyroscopically stabilize um and in fact they they tumble so quickly that depending on when they tumble your chronograph will pick them up in the tumbled form, right? And you’ll get a misread y on your MVs. Um but was able to hit that window with a modest charge of Fargot. Yeah. And um I I had some uh we did a kind of an introduction podcast on that. Had a gentleman reach out. He put together an 18inch gun um on that as well. And he’s he’s into the 26s with it. Safe data, no pressure signs. And again, there’s there’s something magic about that bullet. and somebody smarter than me is going to have to explain it, but I’m assuming it has to do with bearing surface. It doesn’t develop pressure like I see conventional ojive bullets do it, right? And so you you can get away with a little bit more. And you’re also not eating into the case capacity um as you would with with other longer bullets like that burger example that I used. Um, and when you look at like a a 300 Wisdom and a 308 and you look at like the the case mouth to shoulder like case mouth, neck, shoulder junction, um, they’re pretty similar in size. So, the bullet presents very similarly to the powder column um, in the 308 as it does in the 300 Wisdom. And when you run the numbers on that, you want to talk about efficiency, like I’m into the 40s for powder um, in the in the 308. I’m into the 60s with 300 Wisdom. There’s a 230 foot per second delta there. And that’s not insignificant. Like that that does translate down range to trajectory advantage, energy advantage, MV retention advantage, but I’m I set it next to my 300 Win Mag with the 190s, which is a slippery bullet. Um, and and it’s it’s not an undue, you know, cartridge from a charge weight standpoint. And that 308 once you get past 400 yards, eclipses the 190300. um in performance and at a thousand yards. Not that I’m going to shoot 1,000 yards, so I’m not. Um 300 foot per second advantage. 308. 300 foot pounds advantage. 308. Yeah. Crazy. It’s wild. It’s pretty wild. Those ones are fun to look at. Yeah. No. And you’re you’re exactly on target with the the advantages of the bore rider design on both parts with the case capacity and with the the bearing surface difference of that. It’s it’s pretty cool. Oh, yeah. I’m excited for that one. That’s another one of those things where I open my mouth on the podcast and then Mark’s like, “Hey, you now you have to build it.” And so I have a donor Tikica actually action. What barrel length do you think you’re going to go with on uh 22? 22. Yep. 22. Uh I’m going to go with a a a lighter contoured carbon wrap barrel. So not um you know, typically you see like a Cindereo or Cindereo Light as your your typical profile, but right uh my builder does custom carbon wrapping and uh he does like a number four contour wrapped. And it I mean the carbon is just aesthetic at that point. We’re not getting any structural advantage, but oh is it gorgeous. Um even a number five, they’re not super chunky. And uh I want that gun light cuz cuz that is going to be a an everything anywhere gun. So um I love 308 Winchester. My it’s one of my favorite cartridges and and uh super versatile and this is just uh taking it to a completely different level. Not and here again you’re talking about shot distances too. Um, people are enamored, I see, by and large, uh, by by figures like BC numbers. Yeah. And they like them tall and they like muzzle velocity. And like criticisms I get as a as a, you know, very vocal supporter of Barnes is like, well, their BCs are so low. I’m like, well, relative to what? like like match profile heavy for caliber projectiles um that aren’t necessarily appropriate for for shooting big game unless you’re at like extraordinary distances where we need to lose velocity so that we have some integrity to the projectile like if that’s what you’re looking for that’s probably a better thing. Um, but if you audit like how far you typically shoot things and like my hunting partner and I have done this. He’s he’s 59 years old, so he’s a bit older than I am and he’s hunted all over the West. He’s hunted Africa and we we were driving to Wyoming one year and we were going through like all of the critters that we killed and uh the number is staggering and our average engagement distance is 255 yards and and like we both have extreme outliers on that, right? Um, but that’s not typically what happens. Like I think of of on the male deer and pong horn hunts that I’ve done, like trying to find a 500 or 600 plus yard shot opportunity like you have to find it. Yeah. You have to you have to be pursuant of it and not my personal style. Like I’m not I’m not really interested in in trying to do that. A lot can happen in 500 yards. Um especially on crazy terrain. Um, so yeah, the the BC thing. How did I get on that tangent? Where was I going with that? Oh, yeah. Uh, is the 212 LRX in a 308 uh worth it for every 308 shooter? No, probably not. Right. But, uh, it is it is a thing where I could hunt a 308 now comfortably to 6 700 yards and not even think twice about it. Um, just with what that cartridge and bullet combination is going to deliver on target. I mean, it’s it’s wild. Well, and sorry, uh, I was just going to jump in. And with that, right, like with that 212, like you have so much energy and and velocity at those distances. Now you’re can make a 308 like a very viable moose cartridge, right, at 5 600 yards, which is crazy to think about when there’s a lot of people that are shooting 338s for moose, right, to get to that. Yeah. And I think like I know you’re a fan of the 130 grain TTSX in a 30 Winchester. And you could very well argue like if you’re not going to shoot past 300 yards, you know, you said 250 yards is kind of that average right in there. I totally agree. Even with open country, we like to tell ourselves we’re probably going to encounter these really far shots and they’re possible, but in reality is, yeah, they’re the average is probably 250, 300 yards. That 130 grain TTSX traveling at 3125 give or take at the muzzle, you know, flatter shooting, you know, it’s going to impact at higher velocity. The bullet’s going to expand. You’re going to have great performance as well. Now, obviously, your wind’s going to be different story even at 3 400 yards with that 212, but you’re right. It often opens up a whole other envelope of of possible engagement distances. Um, on the BC thing, I do want to address that a little bit. I think you do bring up a good point. Um, and I’ve seen this a couple times, so I just wanted to quickly mention it. I do find it sometimes entertaining if nothing else, where you’ll read things, you hear things, oh, the barns aren’t as high as BC. Well, when you’re comparing a TSX flatbase to a VLD style bullet or any other match projectile, yeah, you’re right. They’re not. But go look at the LRX and even some TTSXs compared to a hunting tipped lead core bullet. They’re very competitive. Yeah. And you know, something to be cognizant of if if you’re if you’re like shopping and you’re thinking like what is my best foot forward? Understanding where BC actually gives you an advantage like where it actually matters. And I suppose it depends on who you talk to, but it’s probably 500 600 yards plus where you start to see what a profile that’s in measured in a G1 in the you know 6 category versus a point4 category. So the pretty big disparity there. Um like like five 600 yards and then you kind of start to see it. If if you practice enough and and you’re you’re not shooting in 10 mph, 90 degree or 270 degree winds, um you you can you can accommodate for that like a lot. Like the 130 uh TTSX loading that you’re talking about in 308, it’s probably the round I shoot the most at the most things. Um mostly because it’s a bullet that I trust and then out of a rifle that I trust and uh it’s it’s like its own cartridge. It’s different. It’s a 308, but it’s like different than regular 308. Um, and I’ve I’ve pushed that one to I got to think 435 or 432. Um, full pass through, full expansion. Um, DRT, like impacted on the shoulder, broke both scapulas, dead right there. Yeah. And, um, you’re right. I mean, wind wind kind of eats its lunch, but it’s it’s not a terrible VC. I think it’s a.350 G1. Um, and it’s not that’s not terrible. I shoot 4570 at 500 meters. Um, that’s terrible. That that that’s like a 02. Uh, so yeah. No, it it’s it’s it’s pretty interesting how and good way you put it is like entertaining. Um, to get tied up in knots over the value of that figure and it is important, but it’s not the most important thing. Um, and then its relevancy just is completely applicational. Like, like are you shooting 600 plus yards? Then I think it matters. Then then you look at a different solution. Right. Um, and and a lot of your guys’ bullets like you’re not really marketing them to be a 600 plus yard solution, right? Correct. And there are examples in your line that that certainly are capable of that, but that’s not that’s not the bread and butter of what these things are designed to do. So, yeah. I Don’t get too hung up on BC. Yeah. One of the things that I kind of want to talk about is, you know, with our 212 bore rider, right? Like it’s kind of interesting or wild to me just how much obviously you guys had a big impact to make that quickly sell out. Um, not only in our reserve ammo, but also I mean just like having component bullets. Yeah. Do you do you think that your audience or or you know people out there are wanting more bore riders and where do you see you know potential things fitting in? I just feel like this is such a loaded question like it’s like we’re going to expand the bore rider line. That’s where you’re I’m not trying to go there. I’m trying to ask ask him. Yeah. And kind of ask the audience what are you looking for? Yeah. The answer is yes. Um, well, I mean, for example, right, like let’s just say that we that people have been I’ve read the comments. I’ve seen the comments on social media, on YouTube, blah blah blah, right? Man, we really want one of these for a 7 PRC. What a lot of people don’t understand is just how quick of a barrel you would need to be able to push that type of thing. Yeah. So, as you know, I kind of preface all of that as like it then becomes pretty wild. I mean, I don’t think there’s a lot of barrel manufacturers that are making a one and six 284 barrel right now. Not yet. Yeah. Not yet. No. Right. But again, I mean, like there’s a lot of things that have to start aligning to be able to make all of these things happen. Talk about some interesting um like evolution in rifle craft. So, not that long ago, like a nine and a quarter or 10 twist was a not uncommon 7 millimeter twist rate. And now um 75s, 775s, eights like is the standard, right? And that happened effectively overnight. And uh we’re seeing this now in quarter too. So quarteres were all but dead three years ago. Yeah. And and all of a sudden quarteres are they’re the new thing. Yeah. And they’re going to be really talked about here probably in a couple months. But um so I got to I got to tip my hat to Kevin Brittingham from Q for a one and three twist and not not just for a really cool cartridge in 86 black but for what I call opening the third eye of terminal ballistics um where we understand that energy and velocity uh are a critical component to this. we’re now understanding more as a as a user base that projectile technology whether it’s composition or or engineering and um you know the nose cavity or all these things is also very critical but then there’s this this other layer to this chest and that’s like rotational energy. Yeah. And like what it does and when you pair it with a bullet like a Barnes that has integrity and it doesn’t lose its shape or its mass and and you you have these three to five blades that radiate out from the side. what that does um inside of things as you increase twist rate is spectacular. And so I was it was neat to see a cartridge like 86 Black, which is really niche, like as niche as they come, um catch on as quickly as it did, or I mean it did. I mean, there’s there’s manufacturers that are chambering 86 black with a three twist or a five twist. And it’s not that the barrel manufacturers don’t have the capability to do it. They’ve just never had the call. Yeah. And so is it is it conceivable that a projectile comes to market that requires a six twist where conventionally it was a 75, 775 or an eight? Like how big of an undertaking is that? And technically it’s not. I mean from like a manufacturing perspective it’s a it’s a it’s a new writing in the program and then that’s that. Yeah. Um it’s just new and and it’s it’s weird. Yeah. For now. Um yeah, I do have to jump in and say a couple things. one one without giving too much away I um we are messing with things. We’ve already kind of alluded that a little bit. I have a six twist 7 mm barrel in the lab. Um it won’t be a 7PRC though. Okay. There’s other factors and you brought up a good point. You know, it’s I want I mean look at 68 Western. You know, we’ve seen a million times where we brought out 68 Western in reserve with the 155 and we still see comments where it’s like a 170 grand. Give me heavier. Give me heavier. You can’t. It won’t fit. It won’t stabilize in a copper projectile, you know. And if, when, whatever, if we look at other bore riders, there’s going to be those situations where we have to configure a specific one. The 300 Wisdom, the case was chosen for a reason. You’re going to have similar scenarios with the 7 mm version. Um, and faster twist rates, longer actions, shorter cases, so that the overall length as a cartridge can fit in mag feed. I mean, there’s all these other things to consider, right? Um, and then, well, and I guess that’s kind of what I’m getting at, right? Is like, do you think that the average consumer is thinking about all of those things rather than just being like, I just want a bore rider and a sudden? No, they’re not. They’re not. Absolutely. I agree with Greg. Um, one one thing is like the mass thing is you talk a lot about like when I start having the conversation about you guys’ projectiles with with customers because like one thing that that I’m super fortunate at work to have is like so my regular day job is not podcasting. It’s picking up a phone and answering it. No. Oh, right. It’s pick up a phone and answering emails. And um but we don’t have scripts. We don’t have time limits on our calls and and our our leadership says like, “Hey, if you’re in a conversation with somebody and and you realize that you’re anme in the field that they’re looking to get into, subject matter expert, um, you know, and this guy or gal is going on their first ponghorn hunt and like I’ve killed 18 of them. I should be able to speak fairly fluently to how to do it from the everything perspective, like what boots do I wear, you know, what knife do I carry, what rifle do I shoot?” Yeah. Um, talk to them about that because otherwise they’re going to have to go to like 15 different resources and get 30 different inputs and try to make decisions. Well, here’s what I use. Um, so I talk about bullets a lot on the phone. Yeah. Um, and there’s still a a a big disconnect in understanding of what mass in a projectile affords you or or what it’s useful for. And like I turn the clock back 25 years in my life. My understanding, you know, half a quarter century ago was that well, if the bullet weighed more, it it killed better because it had more power because it was, you know, heavier. And that that can sometimes be completely the opposite of truth, right? With a copper projectile like a Barnes, um, sometimes it’s advantageous to be less and compare it to a bullet. Like I I often make the comparison like in 308s when I recommend the 130 TTSX, a lot of people are a little gunshy. They’re like, “Man, that’s pretty light.” Well, that 130 TTSX is about the same length as your standard 150 cup and core. And then what’s better? A projectile that impacts at a higher velocity but maintains about 98% of its integrity than a or a projectile that impacts slower but loses 40 to 50% of its integrity. And they sit and they think about that a little bit. And I’m like, so if you recover both, one of them weighs exactly about the same as it launched. The other one is is 40 to 50% less than its fired mass. Um, and it penetrated less and it touched less things that allowed that thing to die quicker. Um, in in this case, like to Craig’s point, there’s a there’s a function problem with making a heavyweight copper projectile. There’s also not an expressed need. Yeah. Yeah. From from like a a terminal performance standpoint. And it just happened that I think the the 308 variant like that was a Goldilocks diameter that the the length and and the mass was great and the BC is nuts, you know. Um there there really isn’t a need though to go to a 170 277, you know, that 155 is like the pocket. But you’re trying to, I think, reverse a lot of conventional thought processes where people have been accustomed to that that higher mass meaning something without maybe understanding um fully, you know, material properties of copper and then like you get away with less mass and often to an advantage like with velocity. So yeah, I I would say for folks thinking about that, like don’t get too hung up on super heavyweight projectiles just being the answer themselves. There’s way more than just mass in the equation. And and often it works to your detriment. So I’m excited to hear that you guys are goofing around, though. Yeah, Andy was giving me like, “Stop talking. Stop talking.” So I’m like, I’ll I’ll back up. But uh we’ll see, right? I mean, I think it’s it’s all a process. Um, I mean, it’s got to make business sense, right? And and so there’s a lot more to discuss. Absolutely. Um, yeah, we’ll see where the future goes. Okay. I do have to back up real quick. This is going to switch gears, but you brought up an awesome talking point with the uh 86 Blackout. Yeah. Um, so we worked quite a bit um early on um through an OEM customer um Gorilla Ammunition loads one of our 338 um 225 grain TTSXs. um might be the TSX, they might do both of we’ve done work with both. But anyways, it was interesting because when they first approached us um about this projectile, you know, I understood obviously rotational velocity is going to change the function characteristics of the projectile. But having said that, when you look at the function window of this 225 grain as is, this was designed for a 338 Winimag and that function velocity window. And so, you know, one and 10 twist. So, I understood that there could be a performance gain. Um, but I didn’t fully understand how drastic it was going to be. Um, and so when they first approached it, I was kind of like, I still think we’re going to want to tweak this function window. You know, we’re all on board with building the bullets, but it was like, I think we’re going to have to build them a special version. Um, drop the function velocity, change the internal cavity, um, get it to function bigger at a lower velocity of the 8.6 blackout cartridge. Um, and they’re like, “No, we’ve already been doing some field testing. This is what we’re seeing.” And I was kind of like, uh, let’s see. And so at the time I didn’t have a barrel um in a one and three twist, so I couldn’t go run out to the lab and just go prove to myself. Um, but I did have a one and five twist through 30 cal. And so I actually took a 168 TTSX and we went out and shot different functions. We’re very familiar with what that bullet does obviously at across the velocity range. Um, but we took a 1 and 10 twist 30 cal, shot the 168 TTSX into jail at a given velocity and then we shot it out of that 1 and5 twist and the bullets more or less looked the same. We shot multiple shots. You know, it wasn’t a substantial gain in expanded diameter going from a 1 and 10 twist to one and five twist. Um, now you could argue there was slight differences, but it was more or less the same. Yep. But when we finally got the one in three twist 338 and for the 86 and we got a barrel dyes brass and we started loading 86 and I shot the 338 225 out of the one and three twist. Sure enough that thing fully expands out of the 1 and 3 versus obviously the 1 and 10 that it was designed for at much lower launch velocity of that AS6 Blackout. It’s it’s impressive. Yeah. and and you know more more on like on cartridges and and selections as Greg was alluding to it’s it’s not just a bullet that you can stuff in a case right and so like when we when we put that the initial video out um you know folks would call and they’d say like well my 300 PRC is launching you know 225 at a higher MV anyway like I understand that um they’re like well can I put it in the 300 PRC I’m like well you can but you’re going to kind of everything’s going to change. Like there’s there’s a lot more to just um taking a bullet and putting it in a case and making it work. And and you’re going to have to kind of get yourself into uh a thought process where you’re you’re examining the cartridge dimensions, the case dimensions as much as you are the bullet dimensions to make a really intelligent pairing um with let’s say a 7 millimeter projectile. Uh, and and it it probably isn’t going to be a 7 PRC just on case overall length, right? Yeah. And and I get that. And um because otherwise the rework on the rifle is just going to be nuts. Yeah. Or or you’re going to be single feeding. And yeah, nobody really wants to do that. Again, I you didn’t hear this, but I have to one little word. Seven Psalm. May or may not have a fast twist. Seven Psalm in the lab right now. Yeah. Sorry. you know, and it is a shame that seven wisdom I don’t is there a brass option for seven wisdom right now? Very very little. Um I haven’t dug um super deep on seven wisdom right now. Um but there is good seven saw brass available and the case dimensions are pretty there’s great seven sombrass available. Yeah. Yeah. And and I have a question too. Just talking about Greg, you know, spilling all the beans. Sorry, you can edit this and and messing up and messing around and Dale’s screwing with his head. He’s having all kinds of problems. I have no idea. Like I literally went to adjust it and this thing just like popped and I was like, “Okay, fine.” It just kept getting worse, man. Everything’s just falling apart. The people listening won’t know, but if you’re watching the YouTube video, well, well, I was just happy that you guys were just talking then I’m just over there like, so you don’t have to worry, Andy, cuz nobody was listening to what I just said and spilled. No, the great thing is, no, it’s good because everything was going that way. So, that’s why that’s why we do two camera angles. It’s Friday afternoon and we’re on the struggle bus here at Fox. Um, but you know, one thing I always look at is like what is the industry or or whether it’s Barnes or whether it’s, you know, the broader ammo industry, like what are we missing? What is the consumer asking for, you know, cuz like when you did the podcast, right, on on the Vortex Nation like what, two weeks ago or whatever it was, um, we go through and we read all the comments, right? And and a little plug, I think a lot of the comments that people made and requesting, like 2026 is going to be a really good year for them, right? So you can go through and read the comments and and deduce what you want. Um but aside outside of that, like what are you hearing? What are consumers asking for and what what problems are they having that we need to solve? Um it’s a great question. The pendulum swings, if we’re going to speak specifically to cartridge, the pendulum swings with with a a pretty predictable like undulation. It seems like every 5 to seven years we change our minds on whether we want a hyperefficient vehicle or a completely overboard system. And so um like we had John Lazeroni on a few a few months ago and uh so like John represents the the hyper overboard Yeah. um side of that. At the same time he also did a short mag but he did it like three years too early. Yep. Um, and then it died and then the short mags came out and people were nuts about them. But then cartridges like the Noslers come out, 26, 28, 30, 33. Um, and people were crazy about those. And then that went away and then we went into these micro format cartridges. I got guys calling me asking me what bullet I would use for mu deer and elk out of six arc. And it’s like, I know you can do it, right? Yeah. But like I I just I don’t make that recommendation. Like I think there’s a better solution out there. Um and so the hard part is is like predicting where people are going. Um or like where we’re where where the social component is driving people to thinking this is the best solution. And and right now I still think we’re trending into the the small super efficient format cases a little bit. And I got to tip my hat to the guys over at Hornady for 65 Creedomor pushing us this direction. Uh what I call the Dave Emery School of Ballistic Sciences. Um where we’re we’re making cases intelligently to do the work that they’re supposed to do. And the comparison is like 260 Remington. Great cartridge. I’ve had four of them. Um I don’t have any anymore. Right. Um, we have a small case that the geometry is such that the the bullet can just be the bullet doing bullet things. The case is doing case things. There’s not so much of a a a line crossing or an interaction with them. And I think we’re still going that direction. Um, and even 7P PRC is is actually a really it’s kind of in that camp because it’s it’s much less than a Nosler, excuse me, in dimensions and more along the lines of something like that that more efficient design. Um, but it’s still a very powerful cartridge. I I don’t know though how long that lasts. Yeah. You know, with with things like peak alloy on the horizon, like you guys have the 168 LRX and and a peak alloy. I was shooting that out of a 16inch gun the other day. Unreal. Like I don’t know what that means for the industry. Like my my my personal thoughts are this is the biggest technological breakthrough that we’ve had in metallic cartridges since we took powder and put it in a case. And and like I that’s a bold statement, but like 1871 was a 4570 and like we haven’t done much different since then. Yeah. Um, and this that technology is crazy. And so I don’t know if that means that all of a sudden you start seeing think of a case dimensionally like a six arc, which I’m a huge fan of. If you took a six arc case and you you gave it that peak alloy treatment and then I put a 95 LRX in it, now I have like more than a six Creedmore based on percentages. I’m I’m getting closer to dare I say 240 Weatherbe territory potentially and and like that rewrites the whole book like everything is different than um but I but I think like to to answer that question in a much more palatable format. Uh people are still crazy about BC. Yep. and and so they want that number bigger and and I don’t know that you can necessarily educate enough to change their minds because it’s not it’s not incorrect logic like BC is useful to you assuming that the rest of the projectile can do what it’s supposed to do. Yeah. Um but I still think they want that and then I I think they want like your guys’ uphill battle is still dispelling myths about copper bullets. Yeah. about about fouling and how much fouling they have. Man, I can’t tell you how many thousands and thousands of Barnes bullets I have fired in my career. I haven’t a clue. Um, and how that has never been an issue for me ever. Um, and then like expansion and like one of the reasons that we talk about cartridges on our and bullets on our podcast is because just in in the chair that we’re in and the phone calls that we have and then these recommendations that we give people for products, I’ve heard that everybody’s bullet from every major manufacturer is either the worst or the best. Yeah. And and there’s no there’s no rhyme or reason to it. Like and the failure modes that I’ve heard are absurd. And like I’ I’ve killed 40 plus head of big game with these bullets in in 16 18 years at distances from 11 yards to 532 from game weights ranging from 35 lbs to 335 pounds. And I’ve I mean I’ve I’ve used anemic cartridges on large things and large cartridges on anemic things. And one thing I’ve never had uh is a bullet failure of any kind. Not even remotely close. Like everything is explainable when I start looking through that body cavity upon recovery. Everything is explainable. Well, that thing didn’t drop in its tracks because the bullet entered behind the diaphragm and all I hit was GI tissue. Yeah. Well, that makes sense. Um, and so I think I think like the biggest thing like what what people are asking for is like more information like how these things work and and why people like me just gravitate towards them and and refuse to even look at anything else. Um, because I think there’s just not a lot of intel out there unless you go shoot a bunch of stuff and some people are really fortunate and have the ability to do that. like we can kill effectively an unlimited number of whitetails every year where I’m from um or people in the south that can kill pigs. Um you start talking to like African phes and and like the guys that that especially in Tanzania, Mosmb beek places like this where they they’re killing large boine um Barnes is at the top of the list. Um and then the guys that run top tier planes games outfits where they’re hunting el and kudu and and orics and sable and tough tough critters, Barnes, that’s what they shoot. And um and in Europe too, like I I’ve got very good buddies of mine in the UK that are are uh professional deer stalkers, barns, because they just kill. And and I think they need more information. They need more education on like the the terminal performance standpoint and like how the bullets work. A question that I get a lot is how far can I shoot them? Because they hear me talk about function window. Yeah. And it’s a great question. I always pad the number a little bit. I give them a little insurance policy. I’ve experienced other things, right? Um, you know, I’ I’ve I’ve taken critters below your guys’ publish function windows and they were dead. Um, that’s not something I’d necessarily recommend doing unless you are targeting structure or you have a ton of confidence in that or you’ve replicated that test a lot of times and and you know where it’s at. But um yeah, I I mean I think I think if you can figure out ways to continually improve the profile without sacrificing what people like me have come to love about these projectiles, and that’s just reliability. Yeah. And predictability. Um predictability is a better word to use for it. Um reliability is the output of predictability. Um I just know what they’re going to do. Yeah. because I I’ve had other bullets not do what they were supposed to do. And I’m looking at that I’m looking at that thoracic cavity and I’m looking at how did that happen? Like it doesn’t make sense. And then the next critter, you know, two hours later on the same hunt with the same projectile is a completely different thing. It’s like, well, how did that happen? Yeah. And and like that just doesn’t happen with barn projectiles. That that’s interesting to hear. I mean, I definitely think that’s something we endeavor to do, right? is like, and that’s something we haven’t done here for years is like the educational piece. Um, and so that’s I mean, I would like to doubling down as the podcast develops and everything else, right? And as we’re putting more and more stuff out there, right, that we’re being able to do that, it just, you know, it’s like you can only cover so many topics on on podcast, so you’re just trying to get things rolling. Yeah. Yeah. So, I think we’ll get there, but I think that’s an absolute must and a necessity. And I think that, you know, we’ve recognized that. So, yeah. I don’t I don’t think there’s like a miss in in the bullet line like what don’t you have? Yeah. You know, you guys still make a 348 bullet. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Who? Nobody makes 348 bullet. That’s actually You say that and it just reminded me. So, one of our employees here, Bill, um, as I was walking into work yesterday, grabbed me and he’s like, “Hey, check this out.” and he’d purchased off eBay this old Barnes ad from way back when and it was when we just had originals. Yep. It was Randy and Connie Brooks owned because it was an American Fork address, but it had have been early. I couldn’t find a date on it, but I’m like this was early early Randy Connie Brooks days and it was the whole catalog on one page and it had some game animals. But it was neat. It had, you know, order by mail. Yeah. you know, the part numbers. And I was kind of fun because I looked through what we still offer today and the 348 250 grain. Yeah. Original stood out and I was like, how cool is that? There has been one cartridge in that board diameter. Yep. Ever. And it’s not even around anymore. You guys still have it. Like there’s holes in the line. Um, and I think it’s it’s like very fleshed out and and very uh like it’s intelligent and and bullets have come and gone since I’ve been using your guys’ products now. um like there’s no XLC’s anymore and there’s no MRXs and and the TT the TSXs have changed and the addition of the LRXs has been awesome. Um I’d be curious like maybe this is an Allen question like how like how many people call and just say well I’m just going to get the LRX because it has the higher BC and like skip over TSX and TTSX and we hear it but it’s actually surprising. Um, there is there’s a lot of people using LRXs that even if they’re only going to shoot two 300 yards and I understand like I pretty much hunt exclusively with LRXs. I mean, unless I’m using like a lever gun or muzzle load or Barnes product. I mean, if I’m in a rifle cartridge, um, I’m shooting an LRX. Oh, just thought of something. Yeah. Okay. But, um, but having said that, I think we still get a lot where like, you know, we bring up some of the misinformation and misunderstood. I think a lot of that really is mostly focused on the TSX. And it’s a great bullet, but it was designed for high weight retention, deep penetration realistically. And there’s exceptions. 28 Nosler, we built a 162 TSX for the 28 Nosler that will function great at 600 yards. But that’s the exception. That’s the rare. I mean, most the TSXs are built for 300 yards and in. You know, you’re taking a bull outside of its design parameters and trying, like you said, any so-called failures, it’s generally when they’re trying to make that bull do something it was never designed to do. Yeah. But the TSX, it doesn’t have a tip. You got to have a tip, right? I mean, it’s just like the BC number, right? It like all comes back to I think BC because it’s one number that people can at least wrap their head around and compare to other things. Whether they’re comparing apples to apples is a different question. Um, but it’s just a simple number that people don’t take into account all the other factors, right? That makes BC not the end all beall, but it’s like very very simple. Yeah. And and I think in doing they put a lot of importance on that number. They’re just like, “Well, that analog over there is 200 points higher.” Yeah. With without the understanding that that that bullet over there, like don’t shoot that at things with a heartbeat. Um that’s right. Yeah. Cuz that’s not what it’s supposed to do. Yeah. Uh something I thought of um muzzle loaders. Mhm. So muzzle loaders. I love muzzle loading. I’ve got everything from a 54 caliber round ball gun to a smokeless gun and uh five others in between. And um that technology has peaked like we are we are in the golden era of muzzle loading. And CVA’s got a new gun out right now, budget-minded. This is an extension of their Paramount um that is now smokeless capable out of the box. $1,500. Okay. And like I’ve got a I’ve got an Arrowhead. I’ve got serial number three uh off the Arrowhead line. Like that is the premier smokeless gun. And now there’s a $1,500 option out there for the consumer. And that is going to change the way in like a trickle down effect that the the guy or gal who’s buying the $350 muzzle loader thinks about muzzle loader projectiles because they’re going to see that big long racy tip on on some of these muzz loader projectiles and be like, “That’s what I need.” Yeah. Yeah. Um something along those lines. That’d be cool. Okay. Did you take note of that? Yeah. I mean, I think that we took note of that a while back. I might We We recently recorded a muzzle loader podcast and we kind of gave a little teasers, but yeah, it’s again can’t say too much, but we’re very aware. Yeah. And I totally agree. Always testing things. Yeah. Right. Always testing things. That’s a good way to put it. Yeah. We’re always testing things. Yeah. But no, muzzle loaders. Um, the Magnum MZ is a great product. That’s my go-to. Even if you’re not shooting the Paramount Remington Ultimate level velocities, standard Magnum guns with 150 grain, you know, three pellet type charges, I still say use the Magnum MZ and that that green Sabo just it works better even those velocities versus the green the blue one and the TE. We we found the same too. Um, and really I think it’s more bore condition than it than it is anything else. like some of those guns that they’re you you can get a lot you can get away with a lot when you get over like a 45 caliber bore like you can have a really really poor bore condition and the gun will still shoot really good. Um but they chew soft sabos like crazy and and those greens um whatever that material is is bulletproof. Yeah, it does good. Um but yeah, it but I totally hear it. I mean we we know you know there’s guys that want that next level of performance and you bring up a good point. And I was looking at that CVA gun just a week ago. Yeah. Um with that smokeless option now and and digging in, but it’s and and I want to transition real quick. I I assume we’re getting close to kind of wrapping up here, but like you know, one question selfishly for Barnes as we, you know, continue this podcast. We’re in like month three, right? Like so we’re still very very new. You guys have been extremely successful, right, in your in your podcast. Like what advice would you have? what guidance could you give to like you know help broaden our reach or make sure we target all the consumer wants and needs and the educational piece right like what what what advice would you give for us as we as we continue our down our path so I look at the productions that we do that are most successful none of them are about us um and that’s actually a motto that we have at work um it’s the inverse of that it’s about you okay and so we take that about you uh statement and it’s like when you see an inquiry in the comment section, build a podcast around that singular question. Um encourage people to ask questions um that that they haven’t been right because they’re looking for answers. That’s why they’re they’re consuming this media. Uh and then think outside the box. Like we sell rifle scopes, binoculars, spotting scopes, rangefinders, um and tripods. And uh the majority of our podcast is about cartridges. Yeah. or guns, right? Um, and so I I think, how do I say this without getting in trouble at work? Um, bullets are more interesting than optics, I think, to listen to and talk about and like I can talk about scopes all day long. I can tell you all sorts of cool things. Um, it’s dry. Uh, and and not that great. So, like you guys got a I think a a little advantage there in that like bullets to a gun guy to a shooter are intimately fascinating and like the processes that you you have going on here um and as somebody who’s been using the Barnes brand for decades to to walk through it and to see it now and like I was I was woefully underprepared for how cool it is and like I can’t speak highly enough to the process checks that are going on here And like that’s what builds a really good product is process checks. Um, and consistency, consistency, consistency. And like you guys are doing NASA level stuff. And I I don’t think a lot of people know about that. Like show the world what you can without giving away the the recipe for the soup. But and and do that kind of thing and and just educate and and like the podcast. And I think you guys are going to find this too. Like to me the podcast is as much a product as a pair of Viper 8×42 binoculars because education is is a tangible like and it should I’m not saying it should have a skew and a UPC but um it should be treated as such right and it it’s a very very powerful and useful tool and so to to take a lot of those questions that say Allan’s getting and um and talk about them yeah like you’re going to solve a lot of people’s problems before they have to find out about them as problems or you’re going to answer the question before they have ask. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Ryan, I appreciate you taking the time and coming and hanging out. Um, look forward to seeing you again at Hunt Expo. That’s probably the next time that we’ll see each other. Yep. Probably. So, we’ll have to stop by the booth or you stop by our booth and I’ll be there. Chat again. I’ll be there. All right. Thanks, guys. See you.
26 Comments
Barnes needs to offer a few lighter 8mm bullets. Ever stopped to consider the number of 8×57 rifles in the world?
Love it! Thanks Ryan, I listen to you a lot! Thanks Barnes too!
I’d like to see the bore rider treatment applied to 25 cal. Like the 30 cal once was, it has been limited to rather light for caliber bullets and also a rather slow 1:10 twist. I think a 140-150g bore rider on a 25-6.5 PRC sounds sweet if all the details worked out.
Would love to see you add 300 RCM 165 gr ttsx to the Reserve lineup.
I got hooked on copper bullets by accident. I got a 3006 and went to get ammo for it. I got some Winchester super x 150 grain hollow points. When I got to the range, I realized I got the copper super x. After getting amazing groups, I decided im using them. After dropping deer after deer, I was sold. Winchester stopped making them. They changed the bullet with a tip, and the groups were all over the place. I tried the barnes 150 grain ttsx and the groups came back. That's what I use now. Shot my first deer with them last year. A decent sized buck at 200+ yards. Zipped right through him, and he went about 20 yards. Blood everywhere.
Didn't realize you guys had a show. Glad to see it. Ryan is a gem. The Harvest collection is good stuff!
My favorite Barnes podcast so far. Ryan is your best salesman because of his knowledge and passion. Barnes needs to somehow capitalize on that. I have been using Barnes bullets for many years. I think the future of game bullets are the copper bullets.
Love Ryan talking about his love of cartridges and hunting. He is looking a little thin, hope his health is okay.
280AI? 👍
Good stuff!
Good show , always like to see Ryan , much knowledge and now i know why, he loves what he does.😂❤
Ryan M….. so hot right now
Please make a bore rider for the 6.8 Western in a 1 in 8 twist if that's possible.
Hilarious. Been reloading since my teens. Using Barnes bullets ironically, as well as home made, lead cast, and most manufacturers offerings. I've never shot a box of bullets from a manufacturer that shoots as well as the hand loads I make. Never have I ever. Barnes does shoot well. Love the gold box ammo, but it still does not rival my small batch hand loads using a single stage press and manually weighing charges.
Awesome podcast…first let me say I don’t always comment on videos like this but I’m an avid listener of the Vortex podcast and supporter of their product, as well as a user and supporter of Barnes products.
A couple of things that came to mind, especially when you guys started asking Ryan about what should be next but sounded a little concerned about the market and how to present things…
First…take a page from Hornady’s book with the 6.5 & 300 PRC where they basically said to the industry, hey we built this thing and it’s awesome so make your guns work with our ammo and you’ll be happy you did…the industry listened and companies conformed…then 7 PRC came along and they didn’t have to sell it as hard because they already paved that path. Browning/Winchester didn’t do that with the 6.8 Western…heck they’re not even really supporting their own product at this point…sure there’s some ammo but not much and you can’t even get the Browning branded ammo right now, just Winchester. So I think what you say to the industry matters…like why people need something.
That brings me to my next point for you guys…you’re already doing it and seeing the results…not a pun but don’t be gun shy about introducing another bore rider…you had the current bore rider for a while but it took some other people, like Vortex and Ryan to pay attention and spread the word to the masses that it’s awesome and now people want and need it. Try to have some talks with gun builders and see if someone will take a chance on it and you and factory chamber one…I know it’s not an approved cartridge yet but a custom or semi-custom builder could probably offer a package that the consumer who’s not a gun geek could buy and enjoy the benefits. If you keep showing people why something is awesome they’ll catch on and then you’ll be wishing you’d have done it sooner.
Lastly, as far as the future…I’d love to see the harvest line expand a little more to some classic deer cartridges that aren’t represented and you could easily make yourselves a Harvest LR line…use the Sierra Tipped Matchking and market that line to long range deer hunters, but educate why someone would choose regular harvest (say sub 400 yards) or choose harvest LR (300 yards plus or whatever)…just an idea but it might be worth it for those customers that are just obsessed with BC
I have a humble request: 130 grain 7mm TTSX. For my short barrel 7mm-08 it would be the sweet spot between the 120 and 140 grain. The bore rider stuff is fascinating but not my bag. Great interview, gents. Always love listening to Ryan share his wisdom.
One thing Barnes might consider. Is making a ammuntion line specficially focusing on the bullets made for specific cartridges. Like the 160 LRX for 7 prc, 152 for 280ai, 168 for 308, etc. For Hornady, they have precision hunter for all their eldx. Where their claim is the "best projectile cartridge for hunting" in X caliber. As a consumer it would lubricate the purchasing funnel greatly.
Now I am wondering… would the 212 bore rider work in the 300 BLK?
Outstanding!
Ive shot a fast twist 7 saum (mostly for target shooting) for the past 8 or 9 years. Its by far my favorite cartridge.
Looking forward to the muzzleloader episode and what future Barnes offers are in the works.
Ryan is my FAV
Great to see the Muck in your barne!
I concur with Ryan on the education of how your bullets work. I have used them extensively over the last decade, and they just plain WORK! But I always have to get into long conversations with people about how and why they work so well, and explain why they don’t need to be as heavy as traditional hunting bullets. I applaud you for having load data available online for free, so why not have a chart showing designed velocity threshold for each bullet? Velocity is the most important part of what makes your products work, but no one knows what minimum velocity is needed, and that changes with each bullet.
Why not do some more rotational energy testing with other bullets in your line, maybe a higher twist rate will unlock some velocity window for lower velocity cartridges?
Oregon Mountain rifle makes quite a few different combinations of barrels pre-fit for tikka.
Just an idea the 7mm prcw if it takes off could be great host for a 7mm lrx bore rider. It’s 6.5 prc case necked up to 7mm it seems that would be a great option because of brass availability and capacity.