On this two-part episode, Andy Johnson is first joined by Joseph LaMagna and Garrett Morrison to look back at how Bethpage Black fared as a Ryder Cup venue. The three discuss the various issues with the course setup before looking at future Ryder Cup host sites. Andy, Joseph, and Garrett also pitch some of their own ideas for where to host one of golf’s biggest events. Andy then sits down with 2025 U.S. Mid-Amateur winner Brandon Holtz to discuss his win at Troon Country Club. They recap Brandon’s week at his first-ever USGA event and also dive into the topic of reinstated amateur status in golf.
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Cameron Hurdus – https://www.instagram.com/cameronhurdus
Welcome back to the Friday Egg Golf Podcast. I’m your host, Andy Johnson, and today I’m excited. Uh we’re going to do a little more RDER Cup debrief. Uh this is mostly about just golf courses, match play, setup, uh that type of stuff. I’m talking with uh Joseph Lemania and Garrett Morrison of Friday Golf. And then in the back half, I am joined by US Midam Champ uh Brandon Holtz from uh Bloomington, Illinois, who uh was nice enough to join right after winning the Midam a couple weeks ago. So, we had a lively discussion about his path, which is a pretty incredible one, playing uh college basketball uh and now and now playing, you know, uh Midam golf and winning the US Midam. So, uh we talk about that. also talk a little reinstated dams, a hot topic in the uh amateur golf world. And uh yeah, so this was a uh really fun podcast. Uh I hope you guys enjoy it. And before we get to the podcast, let’s talk about our friends over at Club Champion, I’ll tell you what, if you want to try and compete at a US Midam, you need to have your clubs dialed in. Um I played one midame and uh my clubs were made by Club Champion at that point. That was pre fried egg. that was pre this partnership. Um, I’ve used them basically my entire life, uh, my entire golf life to build my clubs. Uh, and what I love about them is I trust them. They have the most highly trained fitters in the world. Uh, they have an in-house university now that trains every fitter. They have stores all over the country, so it’s really easy to find them. Uh they are career fitters who fit all day every day and they have no distractions by accessories or lessons or other things that they do. Every store has 65 brands which equates to roughly 70,000 different head and shaft combinations. Uh this is for everybody. It’s not just for really highlevel players. Getting your equipment fit arguably would help uh you know from a from a stroke basis uh more you know average players than than high level players. So, if you’re interested in getting a fitting, get a free driver fitting or iron fitting with a club purchase using the code fried egg at clubchion.com/fried egg. That’s a free driver or iron fitting with a club purchase using code fried egg at club champion.com/fried egg. All right, thanks. Let’s get to Garrett and Joseph. [Music] All right. You know, the Ryder Cup discourse has uh continued. I wanted to do one more thing. I thought uh one aspect of the RDER Cup which I think I could make some giant takeaways from uh I think it was actually very revealing of h of a few things was the setup. So, to talk about the venue setup and uh and future venues and future venues we might like to see, we’re going to bring in Joseph Lammana from Friday Golf who was on the ground and of course our uh our architecture expert Garrett Morrison who uh was watching from home. So guys, welcome on. How are you? How are you, Joseph? I’m great. It’s a interesting week. good to be on site as uh for part of it. My second RDER Cup, one as a fan, now one as a member of media. So, uh it was an illuminating experience. What was it like for you, Garrett? Uh it was not nearly as strenuous as it was for you guys. I got to just watch from home and and fire off some tweets. So, good week for me overall. Well, let’s uh let’s get into it. I I think like I’d love to chat with you guys a little bit and obviously you both bring a little bit different perspective but setup was a big chatter. Um obviously Keegan Bradley made the decision to cut the rough uh make it very short rough very unpenalizing off the fairway. Um, and that combined with a Wednesday R or Thursday rain created a soft uh setup and something I I guess I’ve kind of crystallized on golf with highlevel professionals, men particularly. Um, Beth Page Black’s probably biggest weakness as a golf course is its greens. They are very boring. very dull, flat. Um, they sometimes rely on tilt, but nothing very extreme. They kind of are situated on a lot of times ridges, but then very flat. And they’re they’re their surrounds are very benign in the sense of like if you miss the green, it’s a pretty simple chip shot. Um, with how soft they were, I have kind of crystallized around the setup that that boring, mundane, featureless greens render really bad tests of golf for professional golfers. And I’m curious what your guys’s thoughts are. Well, I I agree with you, Andy. I mean the I think most of where intrigue comes from in professional golf is when the ball is on the ground and there’s no better example of that than around the greens. So especially when it rained, especially when they chopped the rough down. Getting up and down was very easy. I think that did backfire on the United States. I don’t know how much you want to get into the captaining decisions there, but not a huge effect. I feel like people are getting a little bit carried away with some of the core setup stuff and how that disadvantaged the United States. I think we need to keep that in perspective. But I I completely agree with you that we’ve you you said it very well at Valhalla that a golf course like that is asking a question that was answered a decade ago of how high and straight can you hit the ball off the tea. If there’s not a lot of intrigue off of the tea like there isn’t at Beth Page, then there better be some defense in the greens. Otherwise, it’s just robotic golf. So, I do kind of I’m somewhat sympathetic to the idea that RDER Cup venues probably matter a little bit less the test that is presented than major championships, for example, because people aren’t as focused on the score and the shots that people are hitting. But I still think Beth Paige was quite underwhelming from a shot value standpoint. Real quick followup, how would you have set it up if you were Keegan Bradley? Well, I on paper those teams were very balanced. So, I think Keegan’s talking about how he regrets it and how he wish he had gone with his intuition. I don’t think people should kill him too much for the course setup, but I do think a more accuracy geared course and a more demanding course from TU Green would have been beneficial for the United States. a little bit more of a talented team on paper, though it was close. But I I think the biggest thing is he was muting the strength of his best player, Scotty Sheffller, who I would cater a golf course towards. You know, he’s going to play four or five matches. You know, Rory’s going to play four or five matches, and you know, Scotty hits the ball appreciably shorter and straighter than Rory does. So, I I think it makes a lot of sense to to build this and gear it a little bit more towards accuracy. At the same time, like Cameron Young went out and played unbelievable golf predominantly from the rough and Bryson Dshambo is not the most accurate driver of the golf ball. So, I think it should be kept in check a little bit. Like there are accurate drivers of the golf ball on Europe too. It wouldn’t have fundamentally changed the outcome of the competition, but if I were Keegan, yes, I would have set it up to be more of an accuracy test. I think also when you combine Scotty and then some other autoqu qualifiers, Russell Henley, JJ Spawn, um, another one that would jump to mind that was on the team was K Morawa, right? Those are all accuracy driven accuracy precision driven players. And I think that’s where the setup um kind of let them down was that, you know, especially in Henley and Spawn’s case, those are two of your best players coming into the the event. You could even throw maybe Harris English into into that bucket, but he can play kind of anywhere. I’d say he’s kind of allaround player. Uh Tommy Flewood’s a very accurate driver of the golf ball, too, though. Like just just to be clear, there was accuracy on the European side as well. Um Garrett, I I’d like to hear from you kind of watching on TV. Uh you know, in understanding the architecture of of Beth Page, what did you think? I you know, if it had been firm, would we have enjoyed the short rough setup? If it had been firm, it would have been very different, I think. And that was to me the biggest factor. The rough got all the attention and and that was a big difference. It it changed the off the tea characteristics of the golf course quite a bit. When we see PGA Championships at Beth Page Black, basically those tournaments are all about the rough and that factor wasn’t there this time and and that was notable. But I think from an entertainment perspective, the main thing, the main limiting factor for this RDER Cup was the softness of the greens and the way that the ball just wasn’t going anywhere, either landing in the fairway or landing on the green. I’m not sure they could have done much about the fairways. Listen, this is an old golf course. They probably don’t have the single most upto-date state-of-the-art drainage and irrigation uh system at at this course, though they do a really good job. The Greens though, oh my gosh. I mean, they were just a it was it was a non-factor. It was truly a non-factor in approach play wherever players were playing from. It didn’t matter if they were in in in whatever rough was there or in the fairway, the ball was landing on the green and and doing pretty much the same thing every single time. And it really took the air out of out of the golf component of the telecast for me. And that was a real shame. And it’s something that I wonder if is even on the PGA of America’s or Team USA’s mind or on the mind of the European Tour or Team Europe when the Ryder Cup is over there. Do they think about setting up golf courses for an entertainment value? I don’t think they really do. I think they think about setting it up to advantage their team. Now, I’m not sure exactly what Team USA was thinking in this case, how they were what what their working theory of how this setup would advantage their team was, but certainly it didn’t have any entertainment value about it. And I think that should be something. Why not why not make the product as entertaining as possible and and try to marry that with some kind of benefit to your team? I I would hope that some kind of service to the fans would be a consideration here, but it didn’t certainly didn’t seem to be the case this time. Yeah, I I’m shocked honestly. I think Keegan Bradley was too. It didn’t rain after Thursday and I was shocked. Just didn’t dry out. What were they doing? Were they putting water on the course? I I they had to have been to a certain extent because those greens just never dried out. I I I couldn’t believe how soft they were, you know? It and it became it became a situation where it was beneficial to be in the rough versus the fairway because of spin control. Because of spin. Yeah. Because the ball was sucking back so much on the approaches from the fairway. Absolutely. Um it was I you know I I’ve been thinking about and you know kind of my the thesis I brought up over um at the top you know I don’t think you know Beth Page’s greatest asset is its topography and it’s got some mundane pieces of the property but it also has some some stunning landforms where you’re playing up and and around and I think that variety is good. I like that about the property and where where this I think the setup was kind I kind of liked the short rough from the sense of like what it did but then with the greens just having nothing where you know there was no contours that reinforced good or bad you know where you have this beautiful land but then the greens don’t reinforce any semblance of strategy on it. Um, and I think like I think if they had a set of greens, and I know that like you can’t just wave your wand and and put one of the best sets of greens in the world there, but if they had a set of greens, let’s just use Augusta National set that everybody knows on on that property with the with the way it was set up, it would have been enthralling. And that’s I guess my biggest takeaway and I start I started to think through major championships and where they fall into buckets for me of like intrigue and it’s why Beth Paige uh comes in so low. It’s why Valhalla comes in so low. You have to have great greens to test the modern player. And this week you just could see these guys hit it, you know, and and it was amazing to watch them make these 20-footers after 20footer and seemingly like make 15footers like a eight-footer normally. But then you start to zoom out and you start to think about it, it’s like, well, there was not a lot there’s not a lot going on with the green. So you could hit it to 15 feet and be okay and not be have a difficult putt. That’s something I think that like amplified, you know, I do think that it was harder if you were out of position than if you were in position. You know, you you you saw people struggle when they were out of position to to hit it close, but I just don’t think the value of hitting it close was as high as it normally is because of the greens. Would you agree with that, Joseph? Yeah, I think especially to back pins, you saw golfers really struggling to take spin off with some of their wedges. Like the 18th hole is an example where hitting that way uphill hard with a wedge and taking spin off to a back pin from the fairway was very difficult and tripping a lot of those golfers off. So yeah, you saw it in the data. I know Data Golf put some stuff out there about how there was virtually no penalty. Uh, I don’t know what the final number ended up being, but it should be somewhere around like a between a tenth of a shot and two tenths of a shot, which is a very small penalty if you didn’t have some kind of tree in your way, there was almost no penalty to being in the rough. And not to derail the conversation at all, but I think one part of all of this that is probably missing from the conversation a little bit and to Garrett’s point about entertainment value should be part of how you set the golf course up. They just hosted a huge event at Beth Page Black whose identity is being a difficult golf course. And it was as easy as it could possibly be presented. Like I think that would be my question to both of you. Did Beth Page lose some of its identity this past weekend? because I think I could make a pretty serious argument that it did. And there were fans all throughout the property saying something to that effect that I’ve never seen it play this easy. It’s way harder for me. Didn’t we lose something this past weekend by setting up the golf course that way? PJ said it before the tournament. He was he was on top of this. He’s familiar with this in the newsletter. A Long Island guy. He wrote a good piece for the newsletter about how this was sort of a a disgraceful setup for Beth Page Black. I think it absolutely hurt Beth Paige Black’s reputation this week that it was set up in this way and it was so obviously easy. And it’s kind of funny that that came through so clearly in a matchplay event cuz normally we would have to use the scoreboard for reference, the leaderboard for reference uh as to how easy a course is playing. But this week it was just so obvious that it was a pillow out there and it was target practice for these guys. And I don’t know. I I think what I take away from it is that Beth Page Black is no longer big enough to challenge these players. For a long time, for decades, part of the challenge of Beth Page Black was its scale, its length, the size of its topography. Even back in 2002, this was a challenging course in terms of its size for the US Open Field. It’s not that way anymore. The course is really reliant on setup to uphold its reput reputation as an extremely difficult golf course for pros. So when you bring the pros to this course in order to make the course seem difficult, you have to narrow the fairways, you have to grow up the rough, you have to make the greens firm, you have to do these things because the scale of the pros game now dwarfs the scale of Beth Paige Black. And that wasn’t the case until 15 to 20 years ago. I mean, you had guys playing alternate shot, which is a challenging format of golf and being seven, eight under par, you know, people going out in 30 on the front nine. Then was it Fleetwood and Rory? Rory, I think, yeah, who went out in 30. I mean, they made a mockery of and I I would say like if I had to point to one hole, and I know it’s different with thicker rough, but to me, what was alarming is just the clubs that people were hitting into 15, which is widely regarded as one of the hardest holes in the world. And you see players even with soft conditions getting short irons in their hands. And that that hole, if you go back to 2002, people were hitting long irons into it. And it’s just a drastically different proposition and and challenge. You know, that that whole closing stretch, you know, when you you zoom out to 15, 16, 17, 18 was considered one of the hardest closing stretches in in golf. And I know that 17 didn’t play all the way back, but if you look at at that stretch, 18 people could just bypass the bunkers. Uh 17 was a scoring opportunity. The same with 16, you know, 16 was just a driver and a wedge. And 15, we saw way more way more low numbers than big numbers. And I think from that sense, what you’re saying about the identity of Beth Page Black is is absolutely true. Um the you know, and I think the setup is is obviously one thing. I I think like what’s interesting is when you go forward, people always say match play, oh, it doesn’t matter. The venue doesn’t matter. But we saw this year that the venue did matter in terms of of how it was set up um and how it recovered from from a rain event, a relatively small rain event and how it had a lasting impact. You know, without a doubt, those greens being so soft were created a huge, you know, an advantage to be in the rough. If the greens weren’t soft, I think that advantage would have gone away. You would have had seen more reward from the from the fairways. So, I’m I’m interested as we move forward, you know, uh is there here’s here’s the lineup of of uh upcoming RDER Cup venues. We’ve got Adair Manor next in 27. Hazeline National uh who has hired uh Davis Loves Architecture Group, but from what I’ve gathered, they they there cannot be work done on the golf course before uh the Ryder Cup because of the contract with the PGA had it uh had the course as is written into the language. So that will not be renovated until after. It’s so weird. I mean, when they scheduled that Ryder Cup at Hazeline and the club soon after hired Love Golf Design as its consulting firm, I thought, “Okay, they’re going to create a new writer Cup course at Hazeline and they’ve hired a pretty talented architecture firm to do the work.” I was excited about that, but then it comes out that they’re Why Why wouldn’t they? I mean, it just it’s so confusing. I I don’t get it. Yeah, they’re hosting the KPMG women’s uh next year. Uh and so if you look at it, 26 to 29, plenty of time to turn around a golf. Yeah, you could do it in you could do it in two years. You could do the the thing that you need to do at Hazelene in two years. But we So we will get the Hazelene you saw in 2016. Uh the Hazeline you’ll see next year at the KPMG women’s. The Hazelene you saw at the USM. Then we go to uh Spain. We go to Costa Brava. I don’t know much about that golf course. Camel. It’s called uh or I might be pronouncing that wrong. C A M I R A L. Um and yeah, it’s it’s on on the it’s it’s in Catalunia. It’s uh kind of an hour outside of Barcelona. I did a little bit of research on this course. There’s some interesting stuff about it. I do not think it’s a good golf course, though. Sounds like one that might be a nice one to go with the wife, though, too. Oh yeah, great great wine region. Just like it would be that would be an amazing trip. Sounds like one to go to the place not for the golf but for like the food for the restaurants and the wine. Yeah. And then go would go to Barcelona. Uh and then 2033 Olympic Club, which you know, if I’m an Olympic club member after what I just saw at um at Beth Page, I’m on full alert. That’s right. Like I am I am not allowing what just happened to happen at my course. You talking setup or you talking setup? Oh yeah, because the Olympic club members are so proud of the difficulty of the late course. So if they get if they get Beth Paige blacked, they’re not going to be they’re not going to be happy about that. And then and then congressional in 2037, which is a very long time away. It’s 11 years. None of the players. I mean, it’d be amazing if any of the players are still playing at that point, but I find that doubtful. 12 years. Who would be the best contender to be still playing? Joseph Levig. So, I mean, he’d be 38. Maybe the Hoyards. I think there’s a better chance Levig’s playing than the Hoy Guards, respectfully. Um, so with that, uh, what stands out to you about about the the future venues and is there one that you’re you’re keen to see? Joseph, you want me to jump in here? Sure. The thing that I think is interesting about these venues is the different tactics that the European Tour and the PJ of America have taken in selecting venues. It looks to me like the PGA of America is basically establishing a ROA, which I would call a kind of USGB ROA, right? The USGAA has its ROA with Oakmont and Shinikok Hills and really the elite golf courses of the United States and the PGA of America has sort of gathered up all the leftovers. And there are some really good golf courses, but listen, I mean, Baltas is not Shinikok Hills. I really like Baltus Raw. I think the renovation work there is great, but I think uh no one’s going to argue that it’s anything like the level of golf course or level of championship venue that uh Oakmont or Marian or even uh Pinehurst would be. And so the USGAA has really commanded the greatest, most prestigious championship venues in America for its championships. And the PJ of America has been left basically taking the courses that that have been passed over by the USGAA. And so the PGA ROA is kind of erroneam, the Olympic Club, Baltas, Congressional, Kioa, Southern Hills, Oakill. There are some really good golf courses there, but it’s not it’s not the US Open. And for the RDER Cup, what happens is that list gets even smaller. Mhm. Because a lot of those places you just listed are not big enough to host a modernday RDER Cup which is be the root of the issue of venues with this tournament. I don’t think you can take it to Southern Hills, right? No. Be a delightful time of year for it. There a really good and a really good golf course, but it’s not not big enough. You kind of need a 36 hole facility. Kia was too small for a Ryder Cup. which, you know, I brought I you know, Joseph, would you be in favor of a smaller on-site footprint and a more a greater emphasis on the overarching product? Yeah, but doesn’t that mean that they have to sell way more commercials if they’re significantly reducing the on-site footprint, in which case then the television product might suffer? Uh yeah, like I think watching the Walker Cup at Cypress Point was illuminating that with a really when the when the focus is actually on the golf and the visuals, it was an incredible viewing experience. It probably wasn’t the most commercially successful, but I guess that’s the trade-off that the PJ of America isn’t willing to make. But yes, Andy, I would be in favor from so many different standpoints of reducing the on-site footprint. I just don’t think that’s ever going to happen. And we’ve talked about it so many times on this pod of why there’s a a void in the market potentially for new venues. And I think if they were forward thinking they would build one or two awesome awesome venues with some of this revenue so that you could have a decent on-site footprint and not put you know PJ called out like they’re putting grandstands in places on the golf course at Beth Page that normally shots could end up. So I think it is compromising the golf courses. What’s what’s interesting is they’re, you know, they’re so booked out um in with both championships and the USGA likewise and they’ve kind of booked everything under a a preconceive or a conceived model of sorts of how how the business works. And I think like what’s fascinating right now with with everything going on with with sports is that, you know, cable subscriptions are only continuing to dwindle. And the way we consider a a broadcast in 10 years is likely going to be very very very different than what we see today. Um, it could be a situation where you’re looking at a streaming platform that comes in and scoops up these things and how the streaming platform is probably looking at it as mostly subscriptionbased, right? Which would completely change kind of the um objectives andor goals of of said broadcast on what what we’re trying to achieve with this. Now you know you see Peacock that still has ads and you know Netflix has introduced some ads but like that primary reason for getting these these events is for subscriptions which completely changes kind of the paradigm of I think how we would look at one of these broadcasts. So, what’s what’s a little, you know, I guess like what’s what’s kind of something to watch is is they’re 12 years out with some of these things or 20 years out and they don’t really know what the business the economics of their of their their TV product is going to be at that point. Are you are you throwing that out there from the standpoint of which venues they should be scheduling? Yeah. How would that change what venues they schedule? Do you think they could go smaller? Basically, that’s that would be my big and that, you know, you heard Seth Wah describe the, you know, booking of venues way out as irresponsible. And maybe this is one of the reasons is like, you know, it’s really hard to project what a business is going to look like in five years, let alone 20. And here we are locked up with venues for the foreseeable future. But we don’t necessarily have certainty of what the business is going to look like. What could VR introduce? Could VR introduce something that dramatically changes, you know, us wanting to go on site for an experience? Anyways, yeah, love the idea of you guys gathering in a Batty house in in 2037 and uh putting on your V VR headsets to uh I this is these are all things that like need to be like my question is like you know when we when we strip away a lot of it and I think the USGA to their they are booked out but they have like the best venues booked out. Yes. Now, if I was on the other side, I would be thinking like, hey, let’s see where this technology thing goes because we might have the ability to do something small or like a small on-site footprint, but then deliver a really premium uh VR product or something along those lines. If technology gets to where you might think it could in 10 years, would you go to Cyber Point? Yeah. Sorry, Gary. Well, I don’t think the PGA is getting into Cypress Park, unfortunately. I think that’s at USGA USGA only site. I don’t think the club is uh was looking at the RDER Cup uh this last Ryder Cup and thinking, “Oh, we definitely want that to happen at our club.” Uh yeah, I think uh that does open up some interesting possibilities. I I think it’s notable that The Masters has not gone allin on making its event the biggest event, right? They’ve they’ve intentionally kept it at a manageable size and they’ve expanded their digital footprint massively over the past 10 years or so. And so that’s that’s how the Masters is moving and it it’ll be interesting to see if uh other other major championships move in that direction as well. Yeah. I it’s it’s fascinating like I of of these venues I would say that like congressional is the one that I’m most interested in. I agree with that. Yeah. And unfortunately that’s 12 years away. So Well, I mean listen, there’s only a US RDER Cup every four years and that’s that’s part of the unique dynamic here. We haven’t really talked about the European side of this yet. Obviously, the PG of America is wanting to go to prestigious traditional venues with its championships. Congressional is that. The Olympic Club is that and and the PGA Championship is is starting to go to classic venues as well. It’s not going to PGA national anymore, right? And so that has been the direction that the PGA of America has moved in. the European tour with the RDER Cup. I mean, they’re basically going to modern courses that they’ve been able in some way or another to purpose build for the RDER Cup. Their in-house design firm, European Golf Design, made major changes at Marco Simone before the 2023 Rder Cup. Major changes at Legolf National before 2018. they’re probably going to make some big changes at Camaro or whatever this place is called in in Spain. And indeed the uh Camarell that the whole development was a European tour idea that had its roots back in the uh the late8s. Um it was the European chairman and co-chairman who designed the course along with the European tours consulting architect. So, this has been a European tour spot that just for some reason or another they haven’t utilized much for championships, but it looks like they’re reinvesting in that. A dare manner is sort of the outlier here, but I guess just the fact that JP McManis is the owner of it is the explanation that the RDER Cup is there. Otherwise, it seems like the European tour strategy is we are going to basically build our own writer cup venues to an extent or we’re going to take existing facilities and retrofit them for this purpose. And I I like that idea. I don’t like the execution. I don’t think the architecture is good and I think that’s a big miss. But it would be interesting if the PGA of America or whoever is running the writer Cup in in a few years. Who knows? Maybe the PGA Tour is going to have more influence in it eventually. It would be interesting if the American Rder Cup were taken to some venues that were in some way or another purpose-built for the Rder Cup. I would love to see some, you know, talented architect try to build a stadium course in this day and age. That hasn’t been done for a while. And I think some really interesting things could be created with that brief. Build me a stadium course. Be like Dean Beaman in the late 1970s just plucking Pete Dye out of semi-obscurity because Bean thought that Dy was an interesting architect and saying, “Hey, just take this ball and run with it. Build me a stadium course for a great championship.” And somehow we’ve we’ve lost that vision. Obviously, it’s very expensive to build these courses. You don’t know the the business side of it is tough. say the organization running the American side just wants to take all the money and put it back in its pockets. That’s right. So, and and that’s the that’s the issue is that they they do not have the vision for this kind of thing. But the possibilities are tantalizing if that’s not what he’s thinking about right now. I G I couldn’t agree more with you and I think that should be a huge focus of of professional golf over the next 10 to 15 years. But isn’t that what PJ Frisco is supposed to represent? That’s Yeah, and I was gonna get to that. It seems like they fumbled that opportunity. I don’t know what happened with uh Gil Hans’s course at PGA Frisco. It seems like a good golf course. It seems like maybe he was told just to go out and build a good golf course. And there are some interesting strategic concepts and you know, it’s the the turf is firm and fast. I think I would enjoy playing PGA Frisco sort of. But why didn’t they ask him to build a stadium golf course? Why wasn’t that course optimized for galleries? Why does it seem to be a bad course to host championships at? Why do you have to change the routing? Little scuttlebutt. Okay. Um so there was when they were building that golf course, it was during COVID. Yeah. And uh the PGA, they had mo they there was apparently multiple attempts to get the PGA down to consult on where they would want grandstands and nobody showed up. What? [Laughter] So everybody was pointing the finger at whether it was Gil or Omni about the the setup, you know, issues with grandstance and how they had to rejigger the routing for for flow, but you know, they were building this in partnership with the PGA and nobody on the PGA side of the coin came down to help advise them or, you know, lend and assistance in in how that could be laid out. So there was no vision. That’s and and and the vision is what made TPC Srass what it was because Dean Beaman had an idea for a stadium golf course and he theorized it to the point where he was saying I want gathering points. I want holes converging so that people can watch action on multiple holes at one time. He was saying, “I want high points around the holes so that spectators are looking down at players.” He had an idea of what this course would be. And that’s part of what made it really remarkable. And so it sounds like there was no similar impetus behind the PGA, at least the Gil Hance course at PGA Frisco. And really, they shouldn’t have been designing the course and then saying, “Where do we put the grandstands or how do we get spectators around it?” It should have been baked into the concept from the beginning. Um, yeah. Yeah, that’s what you would think you would do. Um, the I will say one thing and I’m curious, Joseph, one of the advantages, you you know, Garrett, you you’re not a fan of the architecture that these this firm uh the European design firm is is I think I think it’s not bad. I think the guys I think they’re I’ve talked to the the architects there and they’re smart, but it’s not I will say one of the things about the golf courses that they’re choosing is they are unique and different. They are uh you could call them quirky. You know, anybody that’s watched any bit of golf at like golf national knows this. And I think one of the other aspects of these these builds that they’re doing is they are different golf courses than American PGA Tour style golf courses. And then it almost lends itself right into the Europeans’s hands in the sense that they have really created a way to set up their team and um build their team with advantages in how they relate to the golf course. particularly on their home soil. Would you agree with that, Joseph? I agree with it. I think it underscores that there probably should be a neutral party setting up the golf course. And Eduardo Molinari, who’s, you know, the brainchild of a lot of what happens on the European side, said on our podcast a year ago that he would be in favor of that, that he thinks that a neutral setup would probably be beneficial because of the advantages we’ve seen on each side. So, yeah. Yeah, Andy, you could tell me, you could convince me that if you’re going to build a golf course from scratch, you’d make it as quirky, strategic, funky as possible and then get your side really dialed on the course management and just turn it all the way up. Like have blind shots that your team is prepared for. Maybe you’d mow the rough in in really bizarre ways knowing that the left side is fine here. The right you could do crazy stuff to the golf course, but that I do think that we’ve we’ve come too far on on letting the home team set things up and it should kind of go to to a more neutral setup. In a way, they did this at Legolf National. You know, if you look at the golf national and you ret replay replay that RDER Cup, Europe had so many more accurate players on a golf course that demanded accuracy and the United States rolled in with a completely out of form and wild Phil Mickelson, Bryson Dashambo, Bubba Watson Tiger who was like who knows what was going on that week. sleepwalking through that Rder Cup. And like you think about it and it was like this perfect storm for a blowout because it was one team fit the golf course extraordinarily well and all had experience on it. The other team and you know it was wildly different than anything you see in America. the other team rolls in uh after the Tour Championship, you know, blind and, you know, they they play this golf course that doesn’t fit any of their games, you know. Well, you know, the funny thing is that these courses that the European tour has a lot of control over, the Legol National Camel, what was the other one? Marco Simone. They are kind of like knockoff versions of TPC’s. Yes. Right. But they are peculiar golf courses. They’re they’re a little bit weird. And so they might require some degree of familiarity. You know, Marcus Simone has has a lot of quirk to it. Maybe not really good quirk, but it’s it helps to have seen the course before. And this is all sort of part and parcel of team Europe’s approach where they actually have control of these venues from the ground up from the design side. They are involved with the details of these golf courses. Whereas the PGA of America is basically outsourcing all of that. Kind of like they’ve outsourced their data operation to Scouts Consulting instead of integrating it into the team. They have gone to uh PJ the PJ of America has gone to courses that that operate their own golf courses and have their own ideas about what their golf courses should be in a good way. Right? I I’m glad that the Olympic Club has control over what it’s doing with its architecture and that the PJ of America doesn’t have say in that. But there’s a reason that Team Europe is approaching venue selection in the way it does. It’s it’s going to golf courses where it’s really involved already. I think one thing Garrett you going through that explanation talking about some of those European tour courses that’s illuminating for me not just being at the golf national but also walking Beth Page elevation change is essential to to a RDER cup venue. From the perspective of spectating, it is enormous. And I I mean from the perspective of Europe, like at the golf national, it also created a significant penalty for being offline because you weren’t just in thick rough. You were standing, you know, with the ball way above or below your feet with those moguls on each side of the golf course, which I know was an emphasis of Europe. I don’t know that how much driving accuracy is tested is something that we should be thinking about for future venue selection, especially since these teams are a little bit more homogenized now. But I do think from the standpoint of venue selection, elevation change should be a massive consideration in the way that it informs viewers and spectating different vantage points throughout the golf course where you can set up hospitality. And not to go right back and beat a dead horse, but I mean PJ Frisco is like the flattest piece of property that you’re going to find. And I I do think that should be a much bigger consideration than clearly the PGA is prioritizing. Not yet on the list of future venues. Not yet, but it’s it’s coming. I think it’s probably coming. Um, all right. I I’m gonna make you guys each the Zar um the golfar, the greatest role, the greatest figurative role there is in the world. You can wave your wand and and and change where the next RDER Cups are contested. The next two RDER Cups are contested. I’m assuming that we’re not sticking with Hazeline in its current form. Um, and I, you know, I think a dare banner will be a wonderful, wonderful week. Uh, I’m sure all the players will be quite happy with their accommodations. Um, but you’re, you’re getting kind of like an inland Parkland, uh, Fazio Golf Course, uh, which I hear is is great, wonderful place to be. Um, but like probably not the most, you know, fascinating, enthralling strategic golf course. If you can wave your wand, the next two. So you you get a US and a uh and a a ab a broad abroad venue. What two are you picking? No concerns for anything. No concerns for anything. Oh, I kind of factor factored concerns in. Oh, you could. Yeah, fine. But keep your concerns. Keep your concerns in, but you get you get any any two. What are you doing? So for a European venue would love to see Walton Heath. I think that would be cool. It probably wouldn’t be able to accommodate a fullscale Ryder Cup, but it is a 36hole facility, so at least it does have that going for it. It’s hosted sizable championships before. It doesn’t have much elevation change actually to uh to Joseph’s previous point, but what it does have it hosted the 81 RDER Cup also. Yeah, exactly. It It’s got a little bit of tradition. Did Did you do you know what the f the host of the very first Ryder Cup was back in 1927? Wow. Glenn Eagles Worcester Country Club. Worcester. All right. Which has recently undergone what I’ve heard uh I’ve heard is a very very good uh renovation by by Gil H. I’ve heard that’s a terrific golf course, but don’t think that that’s in the in the card. Some people will look that up and think it’s Warchester, but it’s Worcester. It’s Worcester. Yes. Yeah, it does look like Warcester. Um but that is not how you pronounce it. Uh yeah, Walton Heath. I’ I’d love to see. I think that’s such a cool golf course and it does interesting things to modern pros games. It would be tough to hold any kind of stroke play major championship there, but for a Ryder Cup, it would be fascinating. And it’s so so bouncy, you know, like it’s that’s just that that course is uh is a is a trampoline. And so I would have a lot of fun with that. For an American Ryder Cup, I mean, a a few different options. Chambers Bay is sort of the cliched one. Of course, I would love to see it at Chambers Bay. They’re not going to go there. It’s just too hard to get in and out of the course, and the spectator experience seems to be uh occasionally treacherous, but for a rider cut, people more stay in place, I guess. So, it might be well suited to that. Crooked Stick is another one that that I’d love to see. And Joseph has just perked up at that because this is uh this is close to his heart. But, uh, those are those are two names that that come to mind for me, Ryder Cup venues that that I think would actually be interesting to watch. All right, Joseph, what are yours? Yeah, I think on cricket one issue they have had is the driving range was never big enough to have a full field. So, you know, there you go. You only have 24 golfers. They think they still need to extend it a little bit or put up a higher net, but at least you have that problem solved. I think they can I think they can warm up at a in a at a screen, you know, by the time who knows all Trackman ranges, right? I I think the legit answer here is that they need to build something new because this exercise is always so difficult to find something that’s practical and would be exciting. Um, you guys are going to hate this one, but if we’re doing one that’s four years from now and while Jack Nicholas is still alive, you could do worse than Mirfield Village. And I don’t like picking a a course that’s a PGA Tour Course. You love that course so much. Nobody loves that golf course. It’s TPC San Antonio Mirfield Village. I mean, those are You just have those posters on your wall and you go to sleep staring at them. Honestly, we I think next year we have to send send Joseph to do his Mirfield Village love letter. Yeah, it it’ll write a moving a poignant uh newsletter piece after it. Well, what other golf courses are we even talking about? Like to go through something that can actually host an event and be a good test of golf and potentially have the fan infrastructure. like the the list is so small, but I think it would be cool while Jack Nicholas is still alive to have an event there and it would be a golf course that legitimately has shot value. So, I’ll throw that out there. In terms of one in Europe, I’m scratching my head trying to think of anything that would work. This is another USGA venue, so I don’t think they would ever go there. But, if you want to max out the quirkiness, what about La Hinch? That would be fun. wouldn’t wouldn’t probably get their their box office number that they’re looking for. They they wanted to be within an hour of a major city, right? That’s kind of the that looks to be the logic. You know, Barcelona is pretty close to Camel. Adair Manor is the one that’s it’s like 2 hours from Dublin, but it’s still listen, I mean, no no place in Ireland is is I guess that far from uh any other place in the end. So they’re they’re looking to kind of be generally in urban areas. Oh yeah, these are not realistic. I don’t think that they’re going to La Hinch anytime soon. If you want to see the Golf Star Yeah. If you want to see a course where par doesn’t matter and you’ve got funky stuff that’s upsetting pros, throw throw some of those blind shots at them. Yeah. Well, I I’d really like to I mean, a realistic place, a place that might actually get a Ryder Cup sometime in the near future because it’s in the PGA of America ROA is Baltas. I think that would be a very good writer Cup host. Would it be the most scintillating possible host? Would it be as fun as the Hinch? Absolutely not. But it’s a good golf course where good renovation work has been done. Cool greens, right? Actually, interesting greens. And you could set that place up to be very entertaining. And it’s a 36hole facility, so you’d have the room. The driving range situation is a little bit touchandgo, but I think they have a plan there. So they could turn the whole of the other course into their driving range. Yeah, exactly. They can they can just have them tee off from wherever. Andy, I know you said that this one is it doesn’t have the infrastructure. I think Kioa would be a cool one to have a ride. Too small. Yeah, you could never do a lot of the stuff that they want to do, but if you wanted to dial one back a little bit and make it hard to access, I think you could do a lot worse than Kiwa. What? Yeah, I guess I I’m surprised I you know, like they they touched the thousand ticket thing. I mean, honestly, it’s an awful spectator experience. It’s hor horrendous. I like actively advise people not to go to the Ryder Cup. Oh, the Ryder Cup in general. Yeah. Terrible. Well, you don’t see any golf shots, right? There’s just not that many golf shots being played. And so, what if they just went like the the secondary market crazy markup and reduce the tickets by, you know, they already are outpricing people with their current setup? Why not just go extreme? Have super expensive tickets and like way less fans. [Laughter] This would be your fantasy, right, Andy? Well, I’m not trying to be an elitist or anything. I know, but you you like the idea of no fan golf tournaments, right? I went to a a RDER cup when I was oh I want 26 years old and I was so mad at the amount of money I wasted and at that time it was way cheaper than it is. You went to Madina? Yeah. Yeah. And it was I was so upset leaving me and my buddy were we just talked the whole way home about how how awful of a of a spectating experience it was. So like at that point like you’re delivering something that costs an insane amount of money that’s bad. That’s not a good business. So why not dial it back, go like ultral lux, you know, save people from spending a lot a substantial amount of their money on something that’s not good because that’s the worst thing you can do to be completely honest as a as a business. Um but anyways, I got a couple venues. That’s just a whole another thought that could lead to 20 minutes of discussion. What about the old course? I mean, are we are we waving a wand about logistical considerations? They host an open which is like insanely big every 5 years. I mean, I kind of avoided ROA venues in my own imaginings. Is there a better batch play course in the world? Oh, of course not. And and a a lot a lot of the problems that people have right now with the old course is the idea of par. Yes. Right. And and the stroke play score. And so it would be fun to be liberated from that for for a week at the old course. I mean if obviously like that would be that would be fantastic. I’d love it. Has it God has the writer cup ever been at the old course? I don’t think it has. I don’t think it has. Yeah. It’s been at some other places. This has been it’s been Yeah, it’s been a They went to consistently went to roic courses before the 1980s when they just started going to the Belelfrey over and over and over again. Like you went from literally Walton Heath in I think 81 and then it was the Belelfrey in ‘ 83 and ever since then the European venues have just been you know uh but yeah I I I would love I the writer Cup of the old course would be sensational. And then American venue uh brand new just opened for preview play uh on the day of this recording yesterday. Rodeo Dunes. Rodeo Dunes. Uh, it’s an hour from Denver, 45 minutes from the airport, tons of space for logistics, uh, in terms of of grand stands, everything. And a golf course, like if you’re hosting a a a tour event, you might worry about score to par. For a um, Ryder Cup, don’t worry about score to par. We they just bastardized one of the great championship courses in America with with low scores. So why not go somewhere where you don’t have to do anything? It’s firm and fast. It’s bouncy and it’s a great time of year to be in that loca location. Do you think it would be done a disservice on TV? Rodeo Dunes current TV. You mean like but not when we get those VR headsets going like they wouldn’t know. Yeah. But I mean just in general on TV it’s one of those courses that that I think in in person I’m thinking of you know if you held a writer Cup at Sand Hills or something like that. It’s obviously such a gorgeous place. If you photograph it correctly then it comes across really well. When you’re in person it’s it it just bowls you over. I don’t know if Sand Hills would translate on TV. I think it would. I think I’m I’m like fairly convinced that it would do well. Like that golf course has a lot of big features. It’s more of like a I would say like rodeo has like Irish lynx features where you have those big dunes dramat very dramatic vistas and and like you know towering dunes that you play up like you get that elevation change and those spectating areas that Joseph was talking about. Um so that would be those would be my two. Uh I I also I had Chambers Bay on my list, but you mentioned it. So Chambers Bay I It’s an obvious one. It’s a good one. It’s so good. Yeah, it’s you know the PGA head in the sand for not trying to do it because you’d get like the RDER Cup. I know this would be awful for uh European viewers. Disclaimer for the European audience. I know how awful it would be for you, but for the American TV audience, like, could you imagine a Ryder Cup uh coming down on on Sunday night? You’re watching on the East Coast Ryder Cup at 900 p.m. Be incredible. Yeah. And there there aren’t that many West Coast options really right now. Lot at Chambers, it’d be a lot more interesting than than Olympic, you know. Yeah. Andy, I think what I love about Rodeo Dunes, I’m all in on that. And I think the story that would come out is the Europeans practicing at altitude before the RDER Cup and the Americans not practicing at altitude one time. Europeans winning and that it would be the whole like that’s exactly what would happen. I’m so in on that. Would the Europeans like get a hotel in Aspen and and go on runs together as a team? Yeah. Do attitude training? My favorite is this rumor that the that the US didn’t practice enough at Beth Page where there was literally a golf course you did not have to think around. No. And pract like you know things get the knives come out and people are looking to blame everything but like the idea that somebody didn’t practice enough at Beth Page is preposterous because there was literally no thinking to be done. It was take out the greens and hit it as hard as you can. Yeah, the reason the Europeans made all those putts is that they knew all the all the breaks and the nuances of the Beth Page black greens. So, u anyways, this was great chat. Thank you guys for uh coming coming on. Uh Joseph’s work you can read a lot in the newsletter as well as uh on these pods that he is a guest. Garrett’s work you can find uh in our membership Friday golf club. uh his writing on golf courses, golf courses is is featured there weekly as well as his bi-weekly uh designing golf podcast that everybody should go check out. Thank you guys for uh coming on and uh and talking about things that we would hope that to change that’ll probably never change. Thanks, Andy. [Music] All right, before we get to Brandon, let’s talk about our friends over at Golf Genius. Uh, if you’ve been to a Friday Egg event, you know that we partner with Golf Genius. They help us manage all of our Friday Egg events. Uh, these 100 plus uh people gatherings, the tournaments, we also have smaller ones. They are a system that sta saves our staff hours of prep work and also helps deliver a great experience for players. Not only does that do that for us, but it does it with uh thousands of clubs across the world. Uh they are in more than 60 countries and o over 11,000 clubs, resorts, and public and and golf courses across the world. So they also work with state golf associations and help them run their events. Uh, Golf Genius, uh, is the industryleading platform for managing golf events and tournaments. Uh, and if you’re interested in in learning more about their software, if you’re looking for, you know, if you if you run events or if you’re a part of a pro shop, go to golf genius.com. All right, big thanks to Golf Genius. Let’s get back to Brandon Holtz and uh, talk to the US Midam Champ. [Music] All right, Brandon. Uh, congrats on the mid win. Uh, pretty incredible to do it in your first USGA event. Uh, I got to ask, I I think the thing the part of your story that I’m I’m most interested in is you played college basketball. You played at Illinois State, right? Uh, who’s the best hooper that you played against that, uh, you played against at any level of basketball and, uh, you know, over the years? You know, honestly, uh Sean Livingston out of Peoria, you know, had a heck of a career, went into the NBA. I’m telling you, if that guy didn’t completely tear up his knee, I think top 50 all time. Um he was a blast to watch. He was a blast to play with. Uh, fortunately enough for us, we were uh, and this and you’re an Illinois guy, so you’d remember some of these names, but Andre Iggy Dallas, Sean Livingston, Richard McBride, uh, Brian Randall, they would come down, their AA team would play our AAOU team just about once a week over the summer. So, we got to play with those guys quite a bit and it was they’re they were special and Sean was just on a different level as as we all know, right? Um, but definitely him. And then real quick at ISU, Osiris Eldridge, that guy when he would jump, you could feel the force in the floor if you were next to him. And unfortunately for me, I had the privilege or not so much the privilege to guard him every day in practice. And talk about a humbling experience to get your butt kicked every day in practice. So, um, it was cool. I played with a lot of good players and had a had a had a lot of fun. I was uh I live in this the Bay Area and I I I was talking to somebody that’s like a little younger uh than than me, late 30s. I’m in the late 30s, someone in their like 20s. Mhm. And we were talking about the Warriors and and Sean Livingston came up and and I I vividly remember watching Shawn Livingston when you know how the state tournament was televised. Mhm. And I remember watching him in the state tournament and I was like, “Holy like that.” It was like just like mass destruction of high school teams. Oh yeah. Different. And I I said to this guy, I was like before the knee injury or the leg injury, that guy was unbelievable. And it’s it’s it’s he was uh I it Yeah, it was actually at a rental car center that I said this to somebody. It was I remember there the guy because he was at the rental car center. Um but uh but yeah, Sean Livingston, it’s um as a as a basketball player I you know there there’s this trend in youth sports about like specialization where where like you know it’s like effectively like at age 10 these kids have to figure out what sports they played, right? for you, what do you think about your basketball career has helped you as a golfer? Um, you know, a lot of different ways. Um, the competitiveness, the the drive, I’d say like golf is golf is hard like to to to practice every day golf, right? I mean, there’s no defense, there’s no plays, there’s no like, you know, I can’t I can’t talk trash to a guy that’s guarding me, right? there’s there’s just not it’s just you and the golf ball in the green and the in the hole and um so playing basketball all those years you learn and you and you just I guess develop a work ethic um and and it and to transition it to golf, you know, even a quick hour out on the golf course is better than no hour, right? So for me, you know, having a job, having two kids, um you know, having a life outside of of just a game of golf, running to that range for 30 minutes, hitting a few balls is is is super important. And that’s all, you know, stems into the work ethic and um I guess just the the structure of your day, you know, being able to to be accountable to yourself to to go play when you when you have a little bit of time. I’ve I’ve said this numerous times on the podcast, but it’s it’s funny. I think like the the specialization is I think golf act other sports help golf. Um and I always use this example is I you know maybe the maybe the best summer I had in my amateur career post college was playing I yeah I played basketball all winter. played like probably three three four times a week at at my gym in the city and I didn’t play basically I played no golf. I I didn’t really practice but I came back and what I had gained was explosiveness, right? Like my legs were were just twitchier and that basketball I’ll never forget. I came back and I was hitting the ball 10 15 yards further and it was all because of just the, you know, the quick twitch nature of of basketball. And it’s like you think about some golf exercises like box jumps are great for golf, you know, and it’s like that’s effectively basketball. It’s it’s something I find silly about about, you know, kids. And it’s like you look at Scotty Shuffler. He played sport all different sports growing up. you know, he played a lot of basketball and it’s like there are sports, particularly basketball, I think, that relate really well to golf because of, as you said, with um the ISU player, I I forgot his name already, but the ground force. Yeah. Yeah. The ground force is effectively how you generate power. From what I gather, you you uh you move the ball. Yeah. It’s actually you say that. It’s funny. When I hit balls on the range, I can’t stay in the same spot very long because obviously we all take divots, but you should see like my foot pattern. I mean, I’m I am dug into that ground and I’m a bigger guy as it is, but I’m dug into that ground and you kind of look at if you’re at like a sandbased range and you’re like, “Oh shit.” You know, like I got to move like my foot is in the ground over here. Um, so yeah. And then along the same lines is all these different sports are using different kinds of muscles. That’s why I feel like a lot of these kids are getting hurt because, you know, they only play basketball, they only play football, they only play golf. And over time, you just wear those muscles out when if you’re playing all the sports all year round, you’re using all, you know, your whole body instead of just those select uh muscles for that sport, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I I completely agree. And it trains different things and you don’t you don’t know what what’s going to help you the most. like some something on the basketball court could click for your golf game. Just the way you move or something, something you think about. It’s a, you know, golf such a, you know, kind of mercurial game in the sense of like you have to be cerebral and the way you think about stuff is is is it just like so important. Um, with with the week at at Trune, um, you I read some stuff that, you know, obviously you’re a long player. Uh, desert golf is is is known of being very penal, but I I read that you were you played quite aggressive throughout the week. What was kind of the mentality around the week and your strategy going into a desert golf course and that you know effectively you miss a fairway, you’re kind of in a questionable spot. Um, you know, the the again the driver got me there, right? The driver is the strongest club in my bag. Um, I hit it every chance I can. Uh, and don’t even think about it. You know, if you start thinking in golf, you start failing in golf, right? So, turn the brain off, trust your shot, and go with it. Um, as far as the desert’s concerned, yeah. So, so Trun Country Club was for me, I think, just perfectly set up just because I’m not scared to hit the driver. And I’m not saying those guys weren’t scared to or I’m not saying they were scared to hit the driver, but you know, match in match out, these guys are pulling off irons and hybrids and 3-woods and I’m I’m hitting driver and I’m like, you know, one of the guys out there said it perfectly. You know, a lot of these guys are out here playing the golf course how it’s supposed to be played and I was just out there trying to make birdies. And you know, in match play, you I’m not a rocket science by any means, but isn’t that isn’t that what you’re supposed to do? You know, make as many birdies as you can. I think that’s, you know, it’s a it’s a great point because stroke play rewards that like you’re building like a foundation. If you think about I I think this this what Jeff Sha uh Jeff uh Oglevie said to me once about a stroke play ter tour term. It’s like building a house. You lay the foundation in ground one in round one and you’re just you’re just trying not to screw up effectively and you’re trying to like build a sound house and not make many mistakes and that’s going to keep you on time. You know, the house analogy kind of works well. But when you get into match play, it it is so much about getting bit creating unique advantages on holes and putting applying pressure to your opponent. It’s much more I mean it’s much more like other sports where where you’re squaring off like I think it works really well with like a tennis analogy where you know if you know you watch tennis and they go for big first serves and obviously there’s a there’s a repercussion if you miss it then the then you’re you’re playing the second serve and and the returner has the advantage with golf you know if you can get the if you can keep the driver in play I mean and somebody’s paying an iron. All of a sudden, you’ve just put a ton of pressure on their, you know, mid-ir player into green, right? And I mean, my thought the whole week is if if I’m hitting second in the fairway, you know, I choose to basically what I want to do each hole, right? Um, so to keep, you know, to keep the the basketball analogy of some sort in in the golf, you know, me going second was my defense, right? Um, and again like a little bit part of the gamemanship. They’d be back there 160 to 200 yards away and I’m up there, you know, 80 to 120 yards away. I’m not in their way, but I’m I made sure they saw me up there, right? Um, and that’s just that’s that that’s just the fun. Like that’s that’s how I keep going. That’s how I keep golf, you know, active in in my mind. Um, how I keep going. How I I mean, it’s how I play with all my buddies at home. I mean, what a lot of people don’t understand and realize is the the group of guys that I play with, 12 to 15 guys, they are all scratch at least scratch if not a little better, maybe a little worse. But these guys can they’re damn good players, you know, and to to be able to play with those guys, you know, two times a week, three times a week. I’m not saying, you know, my guys could go out there and and, you know, compete at the US Madame level, but I wouldn’t bet against them, you know. you know, I mean, they they can play. So, it helps me throughout the year, but I’m playing against these guys and I’m pushing them, they’re pushing me. Um, so it’s it’s just fun. Um, and I learn all those things from those guys cuz we like to, you know, talk a little trash back and forth and and keep it somewhat fun. Definitely don’t need a camera following us, but we we have some fun out there. I uh I’ve got another podcast and I said, we were talking about the vidab. I said I said something uh along the lines of like you’d be surprised at how many good golfers there are in the Bloomington area. And it’s like, you know, anybody that played Illinois amateur golf is Bloomington is is kind of like a hot bed for golf. It’s uh I imagine, you know, there are a lot of games at at the various clubs, but you know, it’s uh I to me to me the best thing to get your game in a better place is playing with good players regularly. You know, it’s like I think back to when I was a member at a club. We had I don’t know probably about 25 guys that were two handicaps or three handicaps or less. And we had like a basically a bi-weekly scratch game and everybody would bring some cash and we would play, you know, play all straight up and there was like, you know, low low gross and and skins and and it was like I think like from from my perspective like everybody there took their game to a different level because of just the constant uh competition level and I think that’s like something that is hard with golf. It’s hard to find groups like that. Right. Right. And on top of that, you know, a lot of the guys I play with, we all work for ourselves. You know, we have our own businesses or, you know, in my case, I’m in real estate, so I can kind of, you know, change my schedule as needed to, you know, hey, let’s we got afternoon tea time. Let’s make it happen. Okay, let’s go. So, yeah, that definitely helps. This was your first USGA event. How many uh how many tries had you had at at various events and and uh you I think you I saw you shot 63 to get through the qualifier. Tell tell us a little bit about getting there. Uh yeah, so to to clear all the stories, I’ve been reading social media and there’s a lot of stories out there and I’m like where where did they even find all this stuff? Uh because about 90% of it isn’t true, right? Um but just a quick rundown. And I played full-time from about 10,000 2010 to to 2014 15 maybe. And then I kept my pro cards but and I didn’t play in any big events like a mini tour event. I saw Illinois opens. Illinois Open is literally the only tournament I played in, you know, from 15 to like 20 and had some had some success there. That’s why I kept it. Uh but then after that, you know, having kids just didn’t practice enough, didn’t play enough, and keeping my pro card made no sense. You know, I played one event a year. I get jacked up for that one event, and I just have to play good that week. And if I don’t, I lose what I was trying to do all year, you know. So, my buddies finally convinced me to get my amateur status back. I applied in 23, the end of 23 maybe, and got it back last year. Um, and they, you know, they backdated all and I mean it’s I did exactly what they were, you know, what what the USGA wanted me to do and and we were good to go. And um, then the this was my first like legit USG besides the four ball. I played in the four ball, but we didn’t do very good. So, uh, moving on. Um, but then the the US Midnight qualifier was at Creser Country Club where I’m a member. Um, and I’m like, this is this is just set up perfect, you know? So, I go out there, um, play pretty well, shoot 63, get out, and then, you know, I would I wouldn’t say that I didn’t think I could do this. I mean, if I didn’t think I could do it, I wouldn’t play it, you know. Um, but it was it was it was it was fun. It was a good week. I was glad to play well while I was out there cuz I mean, it’s it’s amateur golf, right? We don’t we’re not playing every day. We’re not practicing every day. Um and you just got to play you got to play good at you know at the right opportunity and the right time and um that’s what happened and and here we are today. Right. It’s uh I played in 2016 and I was kind of cruising in the stroke play and then I started thinking about match play on my back nine of second round and that’s when you know anybody that played any any level of golf knows that’s when implosions happened and sure enough it it happened. But, you know, like that’s the thing about that mid Amam is is you if you play well in that in that stroke play portion and you get into match play, it it’s you everybody in that match play feels like they have a chance because it becomes I got to be one guy for, you know, six days or six rounds in a row, which is not a crazy proposition. um you know in terms of uh in terms of the stroke play and getting kind of ready uh in in and there what did your did your strategy shift at all from stroke play to match play? Um yes. Um, so for stroke play, I mean, it the whole goal is kind of stay out of your own way. Uh, stay away from the big numbers, which I didn’t, uh, unfortunately, but I was able to to kind of recoup and and find some birdies out there. But the good I mean, again, True Country Club I felt like set per perfectly up for me. Uh, and I hit in the stroke play, I hit driver at True Country Club all, you know, the whole round, too. Uh, Trune North was kind of more of a blessing in disguise because it it totally took the driver out of my back. Uh, so it kept me safe. But I think the first two rounds, I think Tron TR Country Club I played first. I think I hit 17 greens. Um, had a four putt. You know, I puted off the green on number three. Um, so I started off number three, my third hole of the whole week, have a four putt for seven. So that was that was a real fun, you know, start. Um, and then True North, I I hit it I hit it in the desert on number 10 and hit a provisional. Didn’t even look for it just because I knew it was this just wasn’t we weren’t going to find it. Then ended up taking a seven there. Um, but it I just kept battling. Uh, stay out of your own way. Once I hit the once I had the big numbers, I’m like, “Okay, well, you just got to you got to buck up and and make some stuff happen.” Um, but once I once I finished the first round at even par, I’m like, “You know what? just get it in the house, keep it around par, and let’s get on to match play. And that’s that’s exactly what I did. So, um, I was happy. And then, yeah, when I get to match play, let’s let’s go grab as many birdies as you can. Was there uh was there a particular match or moment where, you know, it it felt like something was going the the wrong way and and there was a moment that really flipped a flipped a match on its head. Yeah. the the I think it was a quarter my it would have been my second match maybe the Justin Huber um who I’ve you know I don’t I didn’t personally know him but I seen his name uh around and I knew he was a good player obviously looked up everyone I played against and um knew I had I had to bring my stuff in that particular match I just I just was not hitting the ball good battling the swing a little bit and honestly mentally I was just I was tired I was beat you Um, but then I I think I was like three down through 13 and just, you know, had that long get your butt up and start doing something talk and just caught fire. And I think from like 14 to so 14 I think I birdied 14 through 18. Then I birdied the 19th hole to beat him and then I birdied the first four holes of the next match. So, I just I mean I had like seven or seven seven eight or nine birdies in a row and just from all from there, you know, that that just that little bit of confidence, you know, I told my dad I’m like, “Dad, I we’re going we’re we’re going to make a run at this just cuz you always got to you always got to get past that match where you just don’t play the the best that you can.” And for me, I think that that was that match that was a turning point for us. Uh you had your dad on the bag. Um, I’m sure your your dad uh has had a lot of uh sports experiences with you through your life. Um, what was that experience like being able to get the get the whole thing done with with your dad on the back? Uh, it it was fun. Um, you know, we’ve we’ve played a lot of golf together. He knows my game just as good as anybody else. Um, and he’s I mean, he’s just a he’s a comforting presence, right? Uh, and he’s just he’s just a big bear, right? He’s got his long hair, big solid, strong dude. Um, and it’s just it’s more of of, you know, some reassurance, some confirmation. Uh, he’s not out there telling me what to do, where to hit it, how to hit it. He’s just there for the conversation. Um, and the reassurance is all u and when it was all said and done, it was that my wife said the best when cuz honestly, I don’t remember the last T-ball. I don’t remember hitting it and I don’t remember making that last putt. I think I just blacked out in the moment, right? Um, but she said when I made the putt and I went and hugged my dad cuz my dad’s a he’s a big fella, too. And uh, she’s like, “Man, I would I would not want to be in the middle of that hug. I bet that thing was tight.” U, but that Yeah, we that was a that was just I think we finally cuz for the longest time, you know, I I tried the professional route. He was supporting me through that. Um, and then we just figured out that that just wasn’t the way to go. So, I stopped and then I started talking about playing, you know, back some competitive uh, you know, amateur stuff and he’s like, “Yeah, go for it.” And then it all we all just finally were able to just let it go once once we got the job done out there. So, um, super fun to have him on the bag. I can’t wait. And then honestly, in some of the reports, um, I said that he won the Masters badges in 2010. And I don’t I don’t I don’t even know what I was saying on half of those deals, but he actually won the badges in 2004. So, we have been going out to the Masters. He gets two badges per day uh for the week or for the for the tournament rounds, and he gets them for his life. So, we’ve been going out there for 20 years. Um he usually takes a day, I take a day, my brother takes a day, and then his sister, my dad’s sister, my aunt and uncle, they take a day. Um, and we kind of rotate it, you know, every year, but we understand how special it is out there and how different it is out there. And some of the conversation is, you know, we had on our on our way home were like, “Dad, you know, all all those ropes that we can’t go behind and all those buildings that we keep asking ourselves, oh, I wonder what’s in there. I wonder what’s back there.” We’re going to be able to find out what all that is now. So, it makes it even more special just because of, you know, the experience we’ve already had out there. So, we’re excited. I think it’s it’s tradition that the the Midam gets the invitation to the uh to the Masters. Um it’s uh also you get into the uh US Open next year, which is at Shikok Hills. That’s a a pretty pretty great golf course. I I just finished a week uh where I was out there last week. It’s uh you know among what I would consider the very best golf courses in the world. Um and the Hampton’s in the in the middle of summer. It’s going to be real cheap to be out there, right? My my one piece of advice, having covered a US Open there, is uh is if you can stay stay east of the golf course. You don’t want to be in the in the west or the west to east traffic. Um because if you get on the other side then you’re going it’s even if you’re 30 minutes it’s going to be 30 minutes. If you’re going the other way you could be 10 minutes away and take an hour. Um but um the with the masters I that’s incredible that you’ve been going for uh effectively 21 years of your life. Um, what are you know what are I would say what’s your been your where’s your favorite spot to sit as a patron and you know you talked about like wondering what’s be behind the ropes uh assuming you get the chance to play. Um where what what are you what shot are you most excited to hit? Um the I mean I’d like to say number one, but I I that’s going to be I’m I’m going to have to tell the patrons to move that I think if you blacked out on 18 at the mid, you’re probably going to be blacked out on one. Yeah. Right. Just tell move that left rope a little further left because I’m like a pole cut kind of guy and that sucker might be coming low left real quick at you. Um just praying for a little heel a little heel modern technology ball. 100% 100%. Um, no. So, personally, my favorite spot to sit I really like sitting at number two on a day where they can go for it for the green just because behind the green. Yeah, behind the green. I want to sit as soon as Oh, so you can watch the ball come in. It’s It is fantastic. And then I’ve always had a lot of fun on number 6T. It’s a kind of a downhill par three and the wind’s always circling and no one’s ever up there. So, you go up there and I I swear to you, you have the most caddyy player interaction up there on 6T that you’ll find anywhere because one, nobody’s up there and you are literally like right next to these guys, you know. Um, so those two spots are golden. Number nine I like watching because again, no one’s ever at the 9T and they all hit driver. So, you get to see, you know, really it take off, how, you know, what it looks like, how far they hit it, um, and all. So, those three spots are definitely where I’m going to go watch. I want to hit that sec that second TE. I do not like hitting the ball right to left. That ain’t for me. So, they need to they need to get they need to I feel like you could get a 3-wood out there, though. You could probably turn it over a little. Yep. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that’s that’s the thing. You could hit that 3-wood and and just get it to the bunker and then you got flat line and you got plenty of horsepower. Just that easy, right? Just that easy. It is. It is. You know, I think I I think the thing um I I got to play in a media day or not media day, the media lottery. Okay. And like to me the thing about that golf course is it it kind of like it’s the golf course that’s best at praying on your insecurities as a player, right? where like you have like all these memories and nostalgia and you remember like what other people have done out there, but then the the margin for error is so small and the shots are so challenging that like it’s like, you know, it’s a weird thing with with golf. It’s like where you have to be the the key the game is so complex, but like the key to the game is is having nothing rolling around your head when you’re making the move, you know? Right. Right. as uh uh with uh w with those those tournaments. Are there I I saw that you you you said something along the lines of like, you know, I just want to play with some guys that are that are open to having a little game on the side and practice rounds. Is there anybody that you’ve got, you know, particularly you would love to play with? Uh, I mean, again, the list goes, you know, there’s a long list of guys I’d like to play with, but the one I think the Tony Fina would be great just because I I have played with him before and, you know, some of the early on mini tour things, so it’d be good to like kind of catch up on with him. He I’m sure he, you know, he remembers me, right? They all remember me, right? Um, so I’m hoping he maybe maybe gets a little a little spin of this and and hears the story and, you know, maybe he does remember me. I don’t I mean I’ll never forget we were in Chicago. We played at um uh you know I just told you I’m never going to forget but we played at uh they just had oh they just had to play oh shoot but oh I can’t remember. Darn it. That’s going to make me mad now. But we had uh we sat my wife sat down and had dinner with Tony and his his family. Uh Gipper his brother Gipper was out there playing. Um, big breakar. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Big time. Uh, so I don’t know if that would be kind of cool, but obviously I I would be happy to play with anybody out there, you know? I just want to have a little fun. I’m I’m not your I’m I obviously play golf, right? I’m I’m not too bad at it some days. Um, but I’m not like I don’t know really a whole lot about the technicality of the golf swing. You know, I get up there and I hit it and go find it. The ball doesn’t move. Hit it, go find it. You know, that was the other thing a lot of guys were like, man, he just he takes a rip at it and then he then he starts walking. I’m like, well, that’s the more I think the worse it’s going to get. So, just and that’s another story. I don’t remember it was like our 23rd hole or something and it’s a par five and I hit a bad a bad T- shot. So, we laid up and I’m sitting there. We got a little like 50 yard pitch right up the hill and my dad and I were talking and we’re like pointing out these, you know, spots on the green. My dad starts talking about, you know, oh, this light piece of grass, this dark piece of grass. And I’m like, I’m all in with them. I’m like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m going to hit it right there. And I I just cold shanked it. I just shanked the out of it, you know? And I’m like I get up there, I mark my ball. I’m like, “Dad, what are we doing? We don’t This isn’t how we play golf. Let’s just stop talking, right? we’re not talking about this anymore. Um, so yeah, I mean it the the less you think about it, the the easier it’s going to be in my opinion. Uh, but as far as golfers, yeah, Tony would be cool just because I’ve, you know, I’ve met him personally before. My wife follows him on follows his wife on Instagram and she’s in love with her. Uh, or whatever that social media stuff is, Tik Tok, Instagram, all that. I’m not the best with it, but um, he’d be fun. And then really just anybody and everybody out there. Obviously, you know, your dream to be playing with Tiger and Rory and all those guys, but that I mean I’m I’m also a realistic guy. Like that ain’t happening. You know, maybe if it be great, but it was like a couple years ago at the open at at the old course. Um, Adrien Marunk had just like he was I think he was like one of the first people he was teen off 10 which is like way the hell out there and at the time he was this was before he became you know a like a big-time winner on the DP World Tour and then he went to live you know but he’s a relatively unknown golfer and like he’s got like I think it was 6:30 on the old course he was teeing off or seven and who shows up just shows up at his tea time. Never met the guy Tiger Woods. Yeah. You know, he plays practice round with Tiger Woods. So, you never know, right? Like I mean, that’s kind of the beauty of those practice rounds. Exactly. And that’s the the un the unknowing is kind of, you know, even more of of the excitement, right? I did see that Evan Beck won last year, the mid and he played with Bubba Watson at the Masters last year. So, I was like, well, I I think I’d be all right with that. That’d be kind of fun. I think that’s like one of the coolest parts about the Masters is the field is so small like it and it’s so elite and like you’re either playing Yeah. And you’re either playing like you’re gonna play with some legend of the game from like, you know, it’s like if you played with Mar Jose Maria be probably like it’s like holy like I’m playing with this guy I watched win masters and it’s like you know got one of the best short games ever, right? Like that would be cool on itself and then you’re playing with somebody else. Um a uh a hot topic of of the week uh is is the you know seven of the eight quarterfinalists were were reinstated professionals. Um, you yourself are a reinstated professional. Obviously, as you kind of laid out, you played full-time from 2010 to 2014 and then you were playing about like one, two, three events a year for the, you know, the next almost decade. Sure. Um, what are your thoughts on on the reinstate AM uh versus just amateur uh, you know, staying amateur debate, uh, when it comes to the mid, I mean, honestly, what’s the difference? You know, if you follow the rules and you and you are what you are, I mean, every one of those guys out there have full-time jobs, have kids. Um, you know, sure that some of them had, you know, pretty good success on it, but it what what you’re going to knock a guy because he went and tried something and now he just can’t play as much as he’d like, but he’d still like to be competitive. I mean, that to me, if you really wanted to to to shut down the argument, then you then you change the rules. But the rules are what the rules are. And if you’re following them, I mean, what why does it matter, you know? Um, and for me to clear the air, I was never on anybody’s staff. Nobody ever gave me a golf club. I think eBay, I’m probably one of eBay’s best customers because I buy and sell golf clubs. If I if I want to try it, I buy it and if I don’t like it, I put it back on there and try to sell it, you know? Like, um, so so really, let’s let’s break down what a what a professional golfer is on the mini tour, right? or let’s break down what’s what’s what’s the true definition of an amateur anymore with this NIL stuff with you know all that stuff and I don’t want to get into that conversation cuz you could go for days right but I don’t have a problem with it if you follow the rules you follow the rules and it’s it should be a shut door right um I think a lot of these people one obviously reading some of the articles that are being written about me don’t know what the hell they’re talking about because you know I’ve played on the corn ferry 150 times. I have half a million dollars. Well, that’s all false. You know, none of that is true. I’ve never played on a corn ferry event. I’ve tried, never made it. Um, you know, I’m from Indiana. I played basketball at Drake. Like, none of this stuff is true. So, let’s let’s get the facts right before, you know, people start spurting out what what’s going on. But, as far as following the rule, follow the rules. And there again, it should be a shut door. I think it’s a it’s a super complex situation. Correct. um like many hotly debated topics are. Um, I think like I think where I don’t I think it’s like anybody that has a problem with anybody in the field it you shouldn’t have a problem with anybody personally that followed the rules as as you said now like where you could have issue is where you what what the rules are and I think that’s where the discussion should be had um you know in your case to me like you turning pro shouldn’t be a death sentence on your your amateur career. The idea of trying something should not be like you’re you’re done, right? I think that where I would come down as someone who like never played professionally um you know worked from age 23 and like you know played golf sparingly and tried to compete right over the course of my life where I would say like in a completely different situation is like the way I feel about it is it should be tiered based off of where you get to right sure and if you’ve played 10 years or you know five years on the corner ferry tour or you’ve made it to the PGA tour, you know, in that sense. Like there has to be a different um reinstated station process for that person than somebody that played, you know, 5 years of mini tour golf and then has just basically kept their your situation where you had your your professional status but didn’t really play like and was working a full-time job. Like to me there’s different sta barriers but like the idea I think the idea the spirit of the event is that these are people that work for a living um and do something other than golf for a living. Now, there’s like all sorts of caveats in here. Like people are quick to put like, well, there’s a lot of guys that don’t have to work that are in this event. And that’s true, right? Like, but like for for the rule sake, like to me, there has to be just like a process like in a set number. It’s like, okay, like if you if you play on a a credited PGA tour, whether it’s, you know, Canada, you know, uh, Cornferryy or the PGA Tour, there has to be just like lengths of period of time because like to me, if you played cornfairy tour golf 3 years ago and you had played for, you know, three years, four years on the Cornferry tour, if you take 10 years off, you you are not anywhere year. I’m nowhere near you because you’ve you’ve devoted your life to that craft and I’m never going to have experiences of playing 20 events a year with a four round, you know, four round like 80 tournament rounds a year like that. There’s no way for a working person to simulate that. There’s not even enough midame events to do that, you know. Sure. So, I don’t know. It’s complex. I I I think that there has to be just a little bit more. Like to me it seems like it it’s become kind of the wild west where it’s just like oh you want to get reinstated here you go and there has to be some sort of a a um sliding scale based off of uh where you got in the game of golf. Sure. And yeah I mean I don’t necessarily disagree with that. I mean I’m not going to speak for those guys who who have been on the corner cuz I haven’t been on there. So I you know for for speaking for myself honestly basically all I did was to become a pro. I just paid the the the you know higher entry fee and I went and played for a check, right? Um which I thought was fun, but I mean when it’s all said and done and you’re spending, you know, 30 40 $50,000 a year and you’re only getting back about 20, then you’re then you turn around and look at it and like, yeah, you you paid for the little bit of that chase of that dream, you know. Um so yeah, I mean you said it perfect. It can get complex. Um, but yeah, I mean I I don’t necessarily have a problem with it. If you follow the rules and the USJ’s come out with, you know, hey, these are our rules and we’re fine with it. And, you know, if it needs to change, they’ll they’ll change it. But, I mean, it’s the US mid end. I mean, all these guys over 25, if you’re still playing at a high competitive level at, you know, my age, I was the oldest the oldest player in the in the in the m or the finalist. Actually, I was the oldest player in the match play. I’m 38 years old, gonna be 39 here in a couple days. But what what besides like the city events, what other competitive tournament do you have, you know? Um Well, I think I that’s the thing. I’ve like gone like a lot of different I’ve thought about this a lot, you know, and it’s like if we’re talking about like a a basketball league, like a Sure. If somebody played like in Europe for 10 years and they’re 35 Mhm. and they’re playing on somebody’s team, nobody’s running and being like, “This isn’t fair. This guy played in Europe.” Correct. And like I see that side of it where it’s like hey like one of the great things in golf is like always play better. Mhm. I think where golf’s like unique is like this the way they prop up amateurism, you know, and this mystique of amateurism in golf, which by the day with NIL and everything, as you alluded to, is kind of eroding. Mhm. And I think like this it’s this weird there’s a weird um kind of element to golf with this like amateurism and the properness of a of of the amateur game but like modern society is eroding away at that and that’s one of the tricky things. It’s made this this whole topic way more complex. Sure. you know, and so I you know, I think like where I’ve like been frustrated on on both sides of it. I’m like I’m frustrated with I think the USGS hasn’t done a good job of like laying out and being clear of like this is how we reinstate people and this is like what each pe each like you know each level. But then the the other side of it is like people being like personally mad at somebody because they’re playing well. It’s it’s like wait a second. Like sure they’ve they’re just following the rules and they’re getting to play in this tournament. You know, it’s like where the blame should go if you’re upset about them playing in the tournament is the USGA. Not at all directed at the individual. They’re just trying to like there’s nothing better than playing competitive golf, especially if you grew up playing athletics. Like what other sports can you play at like a at a high competitive level into your 60s and 70s, right? Like you see like Dave Ryan from Springfield like won the US or the senior AM and like I saw he just won the state senior AM again. Like it’s like that’s so cool of like, you know, being able to play and compete at something at a high level and it’s something that no other sport offers. Right. Right. 100%. Yeah. Uh I got to ask you, LeBron or MJ? MJ all day. Not even close. Not I mean that that was my era, too. Like it’s not Uhuh. I don’t even want to give a debate about that because I could go all day. That’s a whole another show, my man. I just uh you know I got a one of my colleagues is a big big uh he’s a Clevelander. He’s the same age as us basically. He uh he’s a big LeBron LeBron guy. So I just like you know stoke the fame a little play a little there. LeBron big golf guy now. Maybe he’ll get to play with him. I see that. I see that. I’d love to play with him. Hey, shout out to him. I’d love to have around with him, too. That’s I It’s amazing how into it he is. Oh yeah. It’s uh it’s been cool seeing all these guys catch catch the golf bug. Um Brandon, congrats on uh on the mid. Uh look forward to meeting you in person uh at uh at the Masters of the US Open. Um if not before then. But uh thanks for coming on and uh congratulations on uh incredible achievement. I appreciate it, Andy. Thanks for having me and feel free to reach out anytime, buddy. [Music] All right, big thanks uh to PJ Clark for editing, producing this show, all the hard work the last couple weeks with uh the writer cup. And uh thank you to everybody also that uh ordered our book. Uh that was that was really great and uh you know, the coffee table book uh uh we’re really excited about. So if you’re if you’re looking for fall gear and other things, uh head over to proshop.thefried.com. at the fried egg.com. Meg’s done an awesome job stocking that. I know it’s I can feel in there starting to get uh to be that time of year where you need some layers. All right, thanks. We’ll be back with a new episode next week.
1 Comment
Bethpage Black was uninteresting before the RC… it's reputation for championship golf is a joke after it. Anybody that thinks this is one of America's great championship courses is delusional. The PGA leadership signed a stupid contract? What a surprise! …or not. Garrett, if the PGA is involved…grade everything USGF!
F can stand for Frisco or other F words.