Jeremy Paul’s Wallabies Lineup to SMASH the Lions? James O’Connor REACTS

In this episode World Cup winner Jeremy Paul names his 23 man Wallabies squad to face the Lions in the first test of the 2025 Series.

Paul joins All Blacks legend Justin Marshall, Wallabies hopeful James O’Connor and Andy Rowe.

O’Connor and Marshall also discus the latest Super Rugby news.

02:58 Pressure Kicking and Mental Preparation
05:50 James O’Connor’s Transition to Crusaders
08:57 Selecting the Wallabies 23-Man Squad
11:56 Depth and Competition in Australian Rugby
14:54 Key Player Combinations and Strategies
18:37 Navigating Selection Challenges
21:17 The Importance of the Front Row
24:47 Strategising the Tight Five
30:57 Innovative Approaches to Team Composition
36:21 Building Combinations and Game Management

[Music] Welcome back to G Brands. I’m Andy Rowan. As usual, I’m joined by All Blacks legend Justin Marshall and Crusaders clutch kicker James O’ Conor. And later on in the show, we’ll be joined by one of our regulars, World Cup winner Jeremy Paul to talk through his 23man squad for the first test against the Lions. If you’re joining us now on YouTube live on the premiere, jump into the live chat. One of us will be in there answering your questions, having a chat back. Um, come and have a chat and we’ll have a yarn and talk through talk through your 23man squad for the Lions as well. Lads, thanks for coming on the show. Pleasure. How are you feeling after the weekend? Must have been a big one down and done. Yeah, it was. It was a good win and uh good night after. Mhm. Good. Well said. We’ll leave it at that, eh? Well said. Absolutely not. Total professional. What how did it go? How like what’s the what’s the what’s the aftermatch like after you know you’re in Dunners Denedan for those that don’t know it’s like the student capital of New Zealand and it’s a great party it’s a great night out right it is it is a good night out I’m not going to lie about that had plenty of good nights out there um but we got the by week as well so we got given the green light the um the back seat the leaders said you know hey boys we can have a little crack together and have a bit of fun and and that we did and then we all got on the plane together and now we’re here and got his gold. We haven’t seen you since uh the clutch kick. Um that took him three intros to get out. Uh but yes, how was that, eh? Yeah, that was special. I’m not going to lie, it was even more special. You just like just before the kick when I rewatched it back saying, “I trust no one else with my life.” You pretty much said that. I did pretty much, mate. I did. But yeah, man. The thing that um that did interest me was like this is a massive pressure kick, you know, like you’re talking about winning the match, you know, the the last moment kick right out in front, but yet still, you know, 40 m out, whatever it is, pissing down with rain. Yeah. And and pressure, you know, the crowd and everything. And and and man, I’m watching you. You’re like chatting to the ref like, do you remember that? Yeah. Look, I’m I’m just playing, you know. I think you asked him. Um, I just want to know how long. How long? It’s 84 minutes, mate. You have free. I wasn’t asking him. He thought I was asking him how long to go on the game. I’m like, no, no, look. How long do I have to kick the kick? Like, how long can I take it? And he’s like, “No, it’s over.” And I’m like, “No, no, like, do I have 30 seconds, a minute?” Cuz you know when you take a conversion now, you only have a minute. So, it’s meant to be, I think, a minute and a half for a penalty, but we’ stuffed around for a little bit. So, I just wanted to know, you know, how long do I have to do my breathing and center myself? So, um, but yeah, look, once I’ve taken, you know, the steps back and and whatnot, I’m just zoned in. And hey, we had a whole chat about this on that first I was on. We did that that you cut out, I think chat for 15 minutes. Let’s talk about it. Let’s talk about it cuz like cuz we when does the process start for you? The process for that one started honestly when the scrum was happening cuz we’d been a in a position 5 minutes before we the exact same thing happened. and we got a you know scrum penalty and kicked it from pretty much the same spot wasn’t it wasn’t as sweet a hit to be fair but so as soon as that scrum was going like taking place like I knew there wasn’t much left in the game obviously it’s a slippery ball like all night both teams had struggled to hold the ball more in three plus phases so in my mind we’re either getting a penalty and I’m having a shot or we’re going to set like carry up through the middle with um Jill on the drop left side and yeah sit back in the pocket and hit a droppy when’s the last time you nailed a drop kick in a pressure situation like that. Yeah, it’s been a while since I’ve hit like a droppy from that far as well. Yeah. Um but yeah, so yeah, you don’t want me to be doing a droppy from that far out. It’s not going to go. But I’ve been in games as well where I haven’t taken one and there’s been a moment to take and I’ve been like, “Oh, we just, you know, we’ll just push it a little bit further to get a penalty or to get a better picture here.” And then, you know, games finished. I think there was an allback test in 2020 where we played in Wellington and I had the opportunity to sit back. We got turned over the next phase as I was setting it up. They run down the other end of the field and nearly score. So yeah, didn’t want to die wandering, that’s for sure. So So the the process starts for you like the scrum is happening. You know, there’s probably going to be a penalty coming because as you said before, the your your scrum was on top. Well, look, I’m back in my my front row as they’re going to work for us at the moment. You know, playing both of them playing 80 minutes last two weeks. Um but yeah, scrum scrumming so well. the packs moving forward like we’re mauling well again like we’re doing our set piece has been yeah special for us so yeah that that scrum I could feel it the energy was there and um yeah just getting prepared and so the breathing sort of starts there but the process again yeah my so I have a breathing technique toh we won’t get into the psychology honestly physiology of it do it’s really it’s really interesting your blood and switches over your nervous system slow down no don’t brush over This this is quite this is quite cool cuz like people at home like wouldn’t have wouldn’t see that part of it. They’re thinking, “Oh yeah, he strikes the ball this way or that way. This is how many steps he takes.” The the the stuff that you’re about to talk about is insightful. So tell us tell us about like the breathing side of it and exactly like what what’s the thinking behind it and what are you doing? So there’s so many different breaths that I guess you can do and I do during game, but for goal kicking it’s like a it’s a box breath. So, it’s you’re trying to just calm your nervous system, trying to calm like your heart rate down to be able to almost pull yourself into the moment. So, the breathing begins. I take my steps back. I’ve like I’ve lined it up. The ball looks nice. I’ve put myself in a position where I feel like it’s a good angle that I’m going to hit it on. And then the that’s where the mind talk comes. So, I’ll talk to myself as I’m taking my steps and as I’m kicking. So, nothing can come into my mind to be like, “Oh, miss left.” Or, “Oh, it doesn’t look quite right.” or or have I stepped quick enough here? Am I moving into the ball too quickly? So, I’m constantly speaking to myself. Like, it’s the same process every time I kick to block out any I guess noise cuz they’ve proven like sign like scientifically now your brain can’t differentiate between like don’t miss left and like it’s all it understands is left. So, for me, it’s just giving it that positive reinforcement. So, I’m talking about like I’ve got my chest to the front of the ball, small steps, smooth, and then finishing my kick and making sure I take a step after it before I look up. But those kicks are pretty hard to try to take a step through because you just want to see it. But I could feel as soon as I hit it, I probably haven’t You hit that sweet. I hit that sweet. I’m not going to lie. Like that one felt good. It was right down the middle cuz the one before was wasn’t as sweet. So, I had to give it give that one everything. Yeah, it it didn’t really deviate either. It just was right in the middle of the uprights, you know. Aim small, miss small. That’s it, brother. Nice, mate. So good. You got Do you do you feel now cuz obviously your James Okconor, former Walabby could be current Walabby, but you you know your identity as an Australian. Do you feel now that you’re part of your identity as a crusader? Yeah, 100%. 100% I do. like uh obviously like coming over it was it was always going to be interesting to see not even how I perceived but how I fitted into the group like it’s a different type of rugby different style like new teammates, new coaches and stuff like that. But ever since like even when I first landed I’ve sort of just not chipped away but like I’ve just felt like the boys open up a little bit more and invite me in. And even like the whole general public have been incredible with me. Hey, I got free Mackers after my first game. Oh yeah, that’s that you don’t get that at all. Um but yeah, like even after that game was pretty special sharing it like with Yeah, you know my teammates and just the response it sort of got and even um got you know hometown Scribe got his beats out there on on my Instagram boys. Yeah, Scribe gave you a shout out. No, no, he didn’t give me a shout. I gave him a shout out. You know his song that he sings about the crusaders. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had that pumping on the way home. Oh, nice. Do you think you’ll Do you think you’ll stay? Oh, that’s a big question, huh? There hasn’t been any offers yet, so I would love to. Yeah, there it is. There you go. There’s the scoop. There’s the scoop. Cut that into a social media clip. James O’ Conor is reaching out to Crusaders management asking for a longerterm deal. Begging. Here we go. Begging. Get on your knees. People are frothing to hear JP’s walabes 23 for the opening lines test. Marshy, do you want to do you want to do the honors and and read through the read out the Australian team? JP’s Australian. JP’s Australian team. First test team at this stage. Yeah. To take on the Walabes. Absolutely. Be my pleasure. Who do you reckon he’s got a seven? You need me to zoom in or you ask? I think I’m okay here actually, Jock. Thank you very much. It’s my absolute honor to read out this JP Walabe side. Um I hope you’re feeling okay. Not too nervous. Fingers across. Fingers crossed. Yes. So Angus Bell, Lucid Prop, Billy Pollard, Hooker. Yeah, the Tong and Thor of course. Nella at uh tight head prop. Jeremy Williams, Nick Frost, the second row. Back row, Bobby Valentini, Fraser Mcright, Harry Wilson. Good guy. Um the back line, Tate McDermott at nine. Tom Liner at 10. Still feeling okay. Uh the midfield is Icky Tao and S Ali of course. Man crush S Ali JP absolutely loves him. wingers Tangunu and Andrew Callaway and fullback Tom Wright. And the He hasn’t called them reserves, he’s called them finishes. Oh yeah, finishes. There’s something in that in that uh reserve hooker Matt Fizzler, Kyla, Ala, Alattoa, the front row replacements. Lukan Celakai Loatoto um Rob Leota 21 is Carlo Tisano so he’s gone for six forwards okay 22 Nick White reserve scrum and there he is Jock O’ Conor jersey 23 there you go brother you made it congratulations you’re going to be playing against the Lions this year how good we’ll stick with that team I like how he’s got Fraser Mcright as captain and then He’s got um Soi and and you as vice captains together. It’s lovely of he actually hasn’t. He’s got them all as co- captains. Co- captains. Yeah. No one can be vice captain finishes and co- captains. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. Well, we’re joined by the man himself. Now we’ve missed him. JP, thanks for coming on the show, mate. How are you? Boys, I’ve missed you. Um mind you though, what about Rads? The one James O’ Conor finisher. My god, we are in the presence of greatness right here, mate. It has been an absolute pleasure to watch you raps. Like, seriously, watching your journey, man. I’ve just been like this. Woo, mate. Loving it. The the funny thing is uh JP and I were talking about this beforehand off air. Uh when you when you first came on the podcast, Rabs, and we were like, “Yeah, yeah, James Oconor, he’s going to be in the walabby. He’s going to face face the lines.” We were joking. We were having a laugh. I know. That was a hard one. But now you’re like on the cusp of potentially playing in Joe Smith’s team. I don’t I don’t know how you can say that to the like he’s sitting right there. Marsha, you were in on the conversation. You were leading the conversation. I was not. Was always very confident that he was going to be in the side. Let’s appreciate the love, guys. Even if it was at my expense. Let’s let’s talk about the 23 JP. Let’s let’s get into it. Like what was one of the what was one of the harder things that you you came across with with selecting this this side that’s going to win the series 2-1. Look, it’s actually probably it’s it’s what every coach um actually dreads, right? Like when it comes to selection is is too much depth. And what we’ve what I’ve seen dramatically in the last sort of 12 months with super rugby and Australian teams and I think it’s been spoken about everywhere has been the depth that we’ve seen like the depth across multiple positions and across all four super rugby sides. So, you know, we got some positions there where we are four to six deep. Like, you know, looking at second rowers, for example, last year, Jeremy Williams made his test debut and now we’ve got six to seven second rowers putting their hands up. Man, it’s just that that’s that was actually the hardest part about picking this 23. But, you know, I I think for Joe Smith and for confidence within his selection and and the camaraderie within his side, um, you still have to pick incumbents. Like, I think, you know, you got to be loyal to players that did the job last year and playing really good footy this year, too. So, I think what it does is it just allows you um more options when it comes to your bench as well as it makes the better players play better. So for example, someone like a Fraser McBride in a car like there it is like you know you got two players the world’s best. Oh yeah. So yeah for me mate it was it was quite uh quite difficult when you’ve got players that are in really good form now at the moment but guys that were picked last year that are not as great a form but still playing very well and still contributing to their current super rugby sides. And then you have someone like James O’ Conor that is just throwing a spanner in the work. So, uh, look, I I’m I’m just loving I’m loving where Australian rugby is at. Uh, I’m loving the contest between players and positions. And I think it’s a it’s a great problem to have when you’re talking about lots of depth. One of the selections you’ve made is at 10 for Tom Liner. And the reason why we want to talk about this is it’s being talked about a lot. Who’s going to play 10? Who’s going to play? who’s going to who’s going to drive this team around the field cuz it’s the single most important part that has maybe been missing from the wabies squad in the last couple of years. Yeah, look and you look at a few of the pods we’ve had this year with some great walbees who have won, you know, World Cups and they’ve all made the comment like 910 like who who are we going to select around 910? And I think um as a 10 when Joe Smith this year basically drew a line in the sand and said to Langi Gleason um you signed overseas you’re not a part of the walabby squad and I know we’ve talked at it at a nauseium with with regards to Noah and him signing and so therefore it’s kind of taken him out of the selection. So, but I think Tom Liners actually stood up like that and I know it’s just the game on the weekend against the Blues, but you know, when we talk about a 10 and particularly um how important kicking like particularly those conversions, right, like turning five points into seven, taking those threes. I know we don’t see a lot of penalty shots in super rugby. Um but when we do see them go for the line, it’s that ability to say you get a penalty 50 m out. And what I saw Tom and what I’ve seen Tom Liner do consistently well this year is he gets it at least five to 10 meters from that corner post and the confidence that you get from a forward pack when you’re going when you take that selection right instead of taking points and you go for that try it’s first starts with the kick and so you know we know Tom Lin is great kicking game look his territory he’s got a big boot on him conversions but what I loved about his game against the Blues on the weekend was his running game and I think It’s just come with more confidence and we’ve seen him grow this year with his confidence and having Tate McDermott on the inside too. I think um you know I think Tate’s stepped up again this year and everyone’s screaming I think for Tate to start this year. So I think you know I think that puts Tom Liner first cab off the rank because combinations right like so I think if you go Tate McDerm at nine you go Tom Liner 10 or they’re probably going to go Nick White and Donaldson like so where you’ve got this combination that they played with each other in super rugby but you know for me Tom Liner’s been a standout this year is a tough little bugger too. Yeah 100% I agree with that. Even you see what he did in that game against the Blues. I love what you’ve done with the 23 as well, especially that number 23. But we’ll go jump into another part of it with those combinations. What What do you think about Hunter Pyami? Cuz a lot of those balls that Tom was getting back, you know, goes Tom to Hunter pulling back to Tom making breaks. You know, they’re connecting so well. You got Tate on the inside linking them up. Obviously heavy red strong back row as well. Love to see it with Fraser and and our man Harry Wilson. What about Hunter sort of sliding into that 12 and L to 13, maybe Joseph to fullback or wing, what was your thoughts around that uh that back three as well? Yeah, look, look again when I sort of when we talk about the depth, right? Like so look at 12 Hunter Pyrami, he was the incumbent and then we we actually saw Hamus Stewart get a start last year in Argentina as well at 12. um obviously Len Ikitel to make room for Joseph Akuso Sui um to come in to 13 and it did Len Ikit play well at 12 when he played against England last year and then Joey Welton I mean he’s a young kid who captained the Warars this year at 12 so yeah I look I I love those combinations look it it I think it’s it’s paid dividends for wabby sides in the past when we had you know your Grigins 9 10 then sort of gits went into that 12. Um I I think the more combinations we can have from super rugby into test rugby, it just solidifies, right? That com like that that cohesion and that connection. Um and when you’re talking about such an important position in 910. Yeah, definitely happened at 12 outside. But the the thing for me mate, like unfortunately for Hunter, you’ve got Salei at 13. I think Tom Wright is still arguably the one of the best fullbacks in the country, if not top three in the world. So I I can’t see Hunter getting a start um when Lynn Ekit has to be there. I think Lynn has been one of the standout 13s this year too. So you know I yeah it it’s it’s tough and and that’s what I was sort of leading to earlier on in the conversation where Joe Smith has this headache of selections because he’s got a little bit too much depth. 100% with that depth comment like Len Ikot’s left foot one of the best defensive readers in the game at the moment but maybe another jump into another little topic you know we touched on the phrase of Harry Wilson what about that walabby back row you’ve picked oh easily the most contested spot right like I think um obviously with Harry Wilson being out for eight weeks with a broken arm look you got to go with the incumbents Fraser Fraser Mcright um you’ve got to go with Bobby V he’s been Australia’s best player for the last three years current John Eels medalist um and is a big body, right? Big body, big big physicality. And I think Harry Wilson, you know, those players that just step up a level when they become captain and I just feel that Harry Wilson is one of those players like he’s what he did last year when he took over the captaincy and he’s just so like you can see with the Reds and their go forward look they’re still winning games but like that go forward that Harry Wilson like that one off the rock his ability to pass. I mean that wonderful try he set up with that nice little flick. He’s got all the skills. Um but then you got a lot of guys knocking on the door. So you got Uru easily can go solu like he’s a second row but can easily go in the back row. Um you got guys like Tom Hooper. Look at the guys down in Camber. Rory Scott um young Luki Roma. We are we are producing some back row forwards. Um, but again, like you can only jam a couple in there. And I think you got to stick with the incumbents here. Like the guys that are putting the pressure on are only going to make these incumbents better. So I I still feel they they have the starting position then, mate. I’m I’m so pumped. E, that energy you’re bringing, I’m I’m sold. Honestly, it’s in the bag. It is. It’s in the bag. It’s 3-0. It’s not 2-1. All right, mate. Okay. It’s in the bag, David. All right. Hey, it is the Chinese New Year of the Walabby. It’s the Chinese New Year of the Walby. Hey, Ro then. So, for all this razledazzle, for all this excitement and obviously there’s some real X-actor players that um you know, you’ve got the ability to pick from and there will always be debate about what jersey they’re going to be in, but you know, with the British and Irish lines, what they bring is a big pack and particularly a very formidable front five. like no doubt about the fact that you can’t get razledazzle unless you get good parody at scrum line out um and and you get you know physical up front. So talk us through your thoughts um on picking your type five because that’s going to be a massive part of this series. You know, the fronting up up front where it’s won and lost, right, Marshy? Like up front. Always. We’re always the ones that get blamed. The front row forwards if we lose if we lose or they lost it up front. But we actually we touched on this right on the European tour last year. Um we got these like these Lamborghinis out the back. Joseph Sui was starting and there was so much hype and m you brought up the best point last year Mari when you said yeah mate you might have these guys but they got to get the ball first and what we show well what it showed last year right was was the progression that this walabby pack had made within 6 months particularly with that capitulation over in Argentina um but what we’re seeing this year mate particularly in the top five we’re getting we’re getting players really deep in the front row did anyone see Tom Robinson’s try, that 50 m try that that tight head prop scored like on him. Are you absolutely kidding me? Like here’s a guy that is the fourth he’s the fourth string prop currently at the moment. So look, you know, t up front I think, look, we got a few injuries at hooker. Um I still feel that we still have some good talent coming through. I think Billy Pollard has been one of the better hookers from the ACT, but we got like incumbents Panga, Amosa, Fesler, they’ve been injured for a lot of part of the season. So hopefully within the second part of Super Rugby, we can see those guys back on the field. Great to see Dave Perki back after a 12 month um sideline. But then the props, guys like Angus Bell, my goodness, my God, this kid can be anything really. Like he he’s got it all. Like he can lock down a scrum. He’s tall in the line out. Um big body, but his running game, my goodness. Haven’t seen a prop run like that in a long long time, man. Like, so he obviously Tupu like one of the best guys we’ve had on the pod, but unfortunately his form’s a bit lacking, but I still pick him as as the best scrummager and it’s going to come down to scruming. Test footy at this level, man. Comes down to set piece first. You got to win your ball. Um, but what I have been really really impressed with being the second row is like we got guys like Darcy Swain over in over in the force. Never even got an eye in him last year. Wasn’t even put on the board. this year, mate. He he comp he’s he stepped up. He is completely destroying other teams line outs. The way that he can it’s almost like he’s got their playbook against the Reds. I think he stole seven line outs. So, you know, you’ve got a guy that’s that wasn’t even in the picture last year and here he is putting his hand up for test selection. So, uh look, mate, tight five, I think I think we’ve got the players there, particularly guys like Jeremy Williams who’s taken his second year. Look man, he only made his test debut last year and he’s the fourth captain this year and he’s again leading by example. So I think you’re always concerned about players in their second year you know that second year blues but I feel those guys that made their test debut have only made another step forward. So the way I sort of look at this Marshy and look I don’t know if anyone sort of brought this up but I think if you’re going to combat this British and Irish Lions forward pack Joe Smith has to go with a 6-2 split. Like Australia’s never even thought of going with a 6-2 split, but when you look at the rules, mate, and how South Africa and even the French now exploiting that rule. When you bring six forwards on and one of them gets injured, you can put the guy back on anyway. So there’s no risk in changing six forwards. And when you have players like Carlo Tisano who is leading trycore in super rugby but has the world’s best seven and Frasen right in front of him then you’ve got to put him on the bench. So I’ve got six forwards and I’ve got obviously I think Tate McDermott will start at at nine and I think someone like Nick White or or Jake Gordon depending on who Joe goes with. But in terms of experience I think he’ll go with Nick White. Um, and I think number 23 will be James O’Connor because he’s one player that can play all positions within the backline. So if you if if you’re going to go a 6-2 split, you got to have that versatility in that in that back that can literally pay from 10 to 15. So I would love to see a 6-2 split against Fiji where we have like we have our tight five come on like we’ve got obviously the front row, the second row like Solitaire Solai Lotto. Um, I think Jeremy Williams and Nick Frost should start and then I would bring on then you got a big back row of Rob Leotaa and and and Carlo Tisano and I mate, can you imagine being able to swap six and we have our own bomb squad? Like I I can’t see how we cannot start with 62 split. I tell you the Lions must be [ __ ] their pants already. I’m pumped. today Marshy like can you can you give us some like clarity on on on this like off off the planet enthusiasm from from JP? Can can the walabes seriously their their top their type five can they can they get pars top five? Well, that that’s the that’s the big question and and like obviously it’s been an area and I’ll say this um with confidence that when I go back into Australia, I’m not going to get bottled but um because it has happened before. It it has been an area of weakness and and it’s been a it’s been a real Achilles heel for the walabeees because like you look in the end of year tour last year and and the walabeees dominated the game in Ireland but they got bullied in the last 15 minutes up uh 15 last 15 minutes up front and you know conceding rolling moss and and Ireland just went to work you know in that area and and that’s what the Lions will bring and um you know so you’ve got to pick strong strong scrummages but they’ve also got to have real balance. They’ve got to be able to to play as well, you know, be ball players. So, look, uh, if I was perfectly honest, I like the the team that you’ve picked, JP, but man, that responsibility up front. Look, you I I still need to be convinced that there’s enough there cuz I know what the Lions are going to bring big time. 100%. And that’s why I I like What about a 6-2 split then, Marie? That’s what I’m saying. I I like the 62 because then you can literally play in 50 minutes, bring someone on for 30 minutes, fresh legs. Like I know what boys like uh Tannella and Angus can do. Karen with that ball. Then you bring someone like Rob Leota on, man, he’s granite as well. Same as Liu Khan. So yeah. Yeah. But but you’ve but it’s got to be, you know, with the ability to have experience and and know that when those players come off the bench, they’re still going to face a Lions team that are very good at rolling more. you know, like they’re going to kick for the line and they’ve got to be able to defend that. You know, you’ve got to have the mindset that for for all of what you what you think, you know, that that’s coming and you’ve got to be able to keep them out. And then you’ve then you’ve got a big scrum coming in the 22 when the game’s tight. You know, they’re going to have good goal kickers as well. So yeah, you can you could bring eight Fords on if you wanted to, but but how do you take that step where that the walabeees probably haven’t taken in the last couple of years when big test matches are on the line? You know, the the opposition are going to go go to work on that pack hard and try and win penalties winfield position and then you know to a degree line out rolling more scrum penalties. Yeah, look no absolutely. Look, I I I think I think the first thing is um you look at the scrummaging across Super Rugby. Um mate, we we’ve actually performed incredibly well Australian sides in in the scrummaging department, especially in defensive lineouts. Like defensive lineups, my god, I think we’re leading the comp. So from from a from a scrummaging point of view first though, I think uh Tupu, Big Tom, and Thor is our our best scrum. I love Alen Alata. Look, I think his work rate, the the type of person he is, he’s just perfect for a squad. Like, you need players like that. Um whether or not he starts or not. Look, young Ber as well from New South Wales. My god, this kid is like the third string tight end and he’s come through. Um you got young Masimo Dutis who’s only 21 years of age and he started super rugby this year and he’s a young Australian on 21, played Australia A last year on their England tour. He’s shown huge amounts of promise. Look, I scrummaging will always be our Achilles. It’s always been our Achilles heel, Marshy. Like what one of the things we used to go into because we had such one of the such best backlines, right? All we wanted to do was get parody. Like all we wanted to do as a forward pack is win our ball. If we could give 90% of good clean ball with respects to our scrum and our line out, then we knew we could win the game. But if you can’t like and that’s where they will obviously attack us is through the middle um and through our tight five. But man, I’m loving what Nick Frost has done this year. I’m loving what Jeremy Williams like you you know Marie when rookies come on right like they don’t normally perform in their second year or you know they normally fall away. This called the secondyear blues but what we’ve seen with 16 depatons last year is we’ve only seen improvement. So m I I yeah I I can’t see that being an issue for us mate our our our forward pack. I really I feel that if we can make a if we be really disciplined like Rasia Rasmus like if we go the 6-2 split and go don’t care how that player is playing around the 50th minute he might be having he might have scored three tries you know made 14 try saving tackles but he’s coming off on the 50th minute and we’re just going to bring fresh legs on. So I I’d feel that change of pace in the game. I feel like we don’t exploit the rules good enough here. Like I think I think South Africa have tapped into something that the rest of the world have just taken too long to catch up to. M the thing about it is Jock um and you would have experienced it um off the back of what I’m trying to sort of allude to is the the thing with the Lions is they have this massive advantage that they get to pick from all the nations and there’s a lot of experience in there and and then once they they get their game plan and the way they want to play and the way Andy Farrell is going to to to basically piece them all together to implement that game plan, I guarantee you because it’s the way they defend in that part of the world, they’ll bring huge line speed and they bring line speed from out to in which really narrows the field. So all of a sudden you Sua Lees and and Co who haven’t experienced that before you know like Tom Liner hasn’t experienced that before. The field looks very very small when when it does look quite big in super rugby but that’s the way that they their mindset is. They try to spook you and they’ve got the experience of picking players that have been there and done that before because they’ve they’re scattered across all the teams. So Australia is quite green in that regard. I think they’re always going to try to do that to us. Like a northern hemisphere group is always going to try to squeeze us. Like that’s where the strength of their game comes from. Like they spend so much time in that wet weather where they can’t spread the ball as much. So it’s very set piece dominant. I think where we can take a little step forward is like the team you’ve picked. There’s a lot of combinations there which they may not have as many. So even like look, I don’t know set piece obviously as well as as you do, but the one thing I do know is it took the Reds two years to get their more right from working from one point to get to a certain level. So guys working together, combinations, who’s going to hit what, let alone knowing the trigonometry of a scrum. So like you might have an incredible tithead who hasn’t worked with a hooker and they might not, you know, connect as well together. So I think that’s possibly where we can slide into that cuz I know a lot of our guys now been playing together for the last sort of five six years. So there is combinations building there. There is a nice little spine of that team coming together. The one that you’ve you’ve picked there. But at the end of the day as well like game management is going to be huge. Like it is very different to super rugby. It’s it’s another level on even world cup sort of rugby. It’s just pressure pressure pressure valve and you’re going to have to win that territory game. And so set piece is going to be huge. territory is going to be huge and just those moments where we got to just keep turning turning them around and making their bigger forwards player because um there’s no doubt they’re probably going to have a big like a heavier team than us but that’s where we have to pick our moments and like you said if we can win 90% of our ball clean there’s some fire weapons out wide definitely JP mate unbelievable we’ve missed three we’ve missed you got the blizz low as well mate this is a year for the walabby I can’t wait Chinese New Year bring it and daddy daycare, mate. I mean, was he for real? Cuz I loved it. Or did he have some serious baby brain? Cuz we know he’s at home with the kids and he has been for a while. Was that legit? I I love that. Nah, cuz he’s he’s been banging the drum right since our first pods of the year about how excited he is about the the way that the walabeees are trending and the players that are coming through. Um, but this was even before the unknown of Super Rugby. And I sort of posed the same question. I said, “Look, mate, I get it. there’s better depth, you know, you’ve got like players that that can play sort of multiple jerseys, got players in great form, you know, but at the end of the day, like I I know when it comes to the All Blacks versus the Walabes, I know where they’ll go to work, you know. So, fronting up in those zones is important, but the Walabe teams have I mean, not the walabe, the Australian teams have in um Super. They’ve been been fronting up scrum and line out. I think uh the force have got the best defensive line out in the comp. Yeah, Darcy. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, how good. So they they were starting to win those areas. So I’m more convinced now. Like I am massively more convinced. I’ve never doubted the the the raw talent and and the X factor in the backline like it’s there. Yeah. But how do you got to be able to unleash it? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. 100%. And I think like you said, it starts at the engine room where we’re going to match up. Yeah, like that’s I wasn’t sold on the whole 62 bench. Yeah, you’re not putting me on the wing. 10 12 15 I’ll do a job for 20 minutes for you there. He said you could play the back line. You can’t play half or you can move. I’ll play. Didn’t you start can’t be too hard, right? Just passing a few boxes. Good looking for a start off. So you’re you’re you’re lucked out there unfortunately. Unfortunately, then you got to have a big big [ __ ] you big ego. But like but genuinely like it’s going to like man I love that passion cuz I do feel like something is building like we’re looking at all the O super teams competing well um like coming into their own strides like the combinations being built through different positions even the fact like the guys have been together now for like five sort of six years it’s sort of been that whole Dave Renie regime of sort of like it’s still predominantly that group with now some newer guys coming through and bolstering the squad out wide and a couple other guys coming through. Um, but man, yeah, I’m I’m excited and then after seeing that, I’m super excited. JP’s enthusiasm is brilliant. Um, and look, I I I’ve asked the question about why the All Blacks haven’t changed their policy on their their reserve idea, you know, like that was smart, man. Real clever. But everyone’s doing it and Scott Robertson doesn’t seem to want to. He seems to stick with the standard, you know, filter two on here and there. And I’m thinking to myself when I was working out their last year’s results, they lost a lot of their test matches in the last quarter, the majority of them. Yeah. But yet they never changed their substitution mindset. Yeah. They never tried to replicate what South Africa or France are doing or anything. So, you know, the fact that JP’s thought about it, I don’t know whether it’ll be what Joe Schmidt wants to do. Yeah. But he’s throwing it out there and it’s going to get massive attention cuz this pod is huge. Yeah. So, well, I know how hard it is to play 80 minutes, let alone for a four plan 60. But if you know you’re coming off at that 50 minute mark or even 45 minutes, you’d be able to just unload everything. And I reckon just one or two, like test matches, three decisions, three choices can change a game. Imagine if you’ve got six guys who are literally going to unload in every single ruck. They’re going to double rock on one thing. Maybe they won’t they’ll get to the right pillar and they’ll make one tackle. like it’s the moments like the mar the margins are so small. So having that ability to be like look you got to work for 50 minutes unload and then we’re going to bring on pretty much a whole new pack or even just flatting the whole bench on. I think it was pretty like pretty smart what J was saying about the whole you know Fords can then sort of be replaced I think or the front row sort of can little loophole there. Um but there’s 100% something to it like you’re running against fresh fresh guys. Yeah, it’s a lot easier to find out a slower forward. Even a back row, like if you get a one-on-one with a back row at the end of the game, you sort of back yourself to be able to take them inside and outside or at least get them to bite in on another defender. Whereas when they’re fresh, like they’re quicker than half the centers now. So it’s Yeah. the amount of work they get through. Yeah. Breakdowns, tackles, double efforts. Yeah. And it can be less disruptive, you know, like if you filter sporadically players in, you know, they they go on, but the the combinations that’s been out there have been working and figuring the game out, you know, and are trying to work their way through especially adversity and difficulty in a game. Um are trying to figure it out. And you throw one player there right in the middle and he’s like fresh and enthusiastic and it’s like, okay, he’s got a different mindset, you know, so he he’s he’s got energy as well. And then the other two are kind of like, “Oh [ __ ] we have to adapt.” But if you change the entire back row, these guys have been talking together on the bench and go, “Right, when we go out there, this is what we’re going to do.” And they’re all in this. They all got the same energy levels. Yeah. And enthusiasm and they’ve actually seen what’s been happening out there for There’s been conversations about where like, hey, we’re going to start running outlines or we’re going to start running back at the inside shoulder here. Blind sides are on. Maybe the little tips there, like inside tips, all those little That’s the sort of stuff I’ve been watching a lot more now that I’ve been spending a lot more time on the bench. You know, I’m watching 60 minutes of rugby and just being able to really pull apart and the conversations I’m having on the bench with our other forwards, our other nines, our other outside backs. Like that’s where like the nectar almost is is sort of we’re pulling apart the game and watching it in a different way. And you can definitely come on and not just one person bring an impact, but you like you said, you’re moving on to the ball together in a way. I still feel like the majority of your spine needs to sort of play 80 minutes. Yeah. But then you’re changing maybe you just change one or two of those spine and then you just get some more soldiers out there who are fresh. Yeah. And that’s that’s the part of the mindset of the old school cuz coaches are worried about injuries. Yeah. You know, so they’re worried about throwing a group of players out there because they’re like, “Okay, if old mate gets injured and and um I I can’t replace him anymore.” So that’s why they just want to sort of inject one or two at a time. But like the common sense now is that players can play anywhere. Well, South Africa could do it cuz Quaker Smith, you could literally play that bloke freaking center. Yeah, you can. Box gig in. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was at Twickenham when they went they played the All Blacks pre World Cup and they Yeah. did a number on the All Blacks. That was a performance out there, wasn’t it? And they they did for the World Cup. They were 71 split. Yeah. And uh I was looking at it. I was there doing commentary and I was looking at them warming up and um Billy Laroo was running around like a spring chicken. You know, he was the reserve back. And then next minute we get the team sheets for the game and Russy’s going, “No, Billy Laroo is injured.” I’m thinking, “Lucky, he’s not.” But anyway, he changed it and they went 8-0. Yeah, they went eight forwards, mate. That’s incredible. Yeah. And and then and dominated the game. But yeah, I I think it’s where the All Blacks haven’t, you know, looked outside of the box and it’s where we as a nation need to we we’ve been we’ve been very stubborn at times about not being wanting to learn from the rest of the world. We want to be seen as the as leaders of leaders, innovators. Exactly. And we we got to recognize we’re not haven’t been number one in the world for a long time. and the rest of the world quite clearly is caught up. So don’t be narrowminded and think, oh, you know, well, we’ll work it out because you haven’t got time to work it out. Not in this country because, you know, our history gets affected by working it out. Lose to countries we’ve never lost to before. So it’s like, right, they’re doing that. Let’s give it a go. You know, let’s try that. Let’s let’s try some blitz defense. Let’s go for a 7-1 split and and imagine the All Blacks putting seven forwards on all at once. Yeah. Especially if you’ve got like okay you got your starters who have worked together well then you’re picking a bench like the whole the bomb bomb squad concept but these guys have also like played together whether it’s in provincial rugby or they’re a particular type of player maybe they’re just dominant ball carriers you bringing on or just set piece monsters like or you’re picking like your with backs maybe you’re picking your two best kickers and you just bring them on the field to just out forcey back a team and just start pinning corners drilling them out and then get to work in the mall. So, yeah, there’s so many different ways to be innovative and uh if they keep Hey, if they change the rules and speed up the breakdown again, I’m sure ABS will get to number one pretty quickly. How good JP has lit a fire under both of you, hasn’t he? He’s really got he’s really got you thinking. It’s awesome. We’ve got him back on the show next week. We’ve got Owen Finnegan joining us when we uh we were in Sydney and we recorded Owen Finnegan, former Walabby World Cup, the big O. Yeah, it’s basically Owen Finnegan and JP having a chat while me and Marshy sit there and they reminisce. But you know the thing with Owen Finnegan um which is really interesting because him and George Grian he was the leading triorer for ages e in super rugby. Yeah cuz he he and George Grian Yeah. developed that little inside ball and I used to cuz I because I didn’t defend in the line. and I defended like 3 m back um you know behind behind I wish I got to do that smart you about being smarter than mine you know um and I could when I could see like honestly the pillars [ __ ] their pants when George you know and cuz Owen used to come from the other side of the road so they couldn’t see him so yeah the blind and sure enough George would go and because it’s George Grian they just wanted the minute he run they wanted to whack him so two of them would chase him across there. And sure enough, he’ just go like that. He might get belted every now and then and then the big O would come storming through there at full throttle. And that was you. And you just like you like, “Oh shit.” Yeah. I was like, “Yes.” Me against Drew. Yeah. Snapped ankles. Is that what he called it? Snapped ankles. Yeah. Well, thank you very much for joining us. We will be back again next week. If you want to catch that interview with Owen Finnegan, make sure you hit the subscribe button, whatever platform you’re following us on. And we will talk to you again soon. Cheers, lads. Cheers, mate. How good. [Music]