It is Possible to Beat the Yips with Trevor Jones and Noel Rousseau

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Just having a giggle with both null and Trevor here as we got into this show because I, gentlemen, am going where angels fear to tread. In fact, most golfers their words like shank and yips. That is kind of like taboo, huh? But now you guys are convincing me and you’re going to convince the audience now Trev that uh the YIPS is no longer a death sentence for a golfer. So let’s start right there. Have a go. Yeah. You know what Mark and it’s just great to be on the show. Null and I have been on quite the journey for the last few years and have kind of joined forces and as you said in this space you know the yips has become a bit like Voldemort. You know this it’s just you people can’t even say the word right without getting chills down their their neck. So, we’ve done a ton of studying, a ton of kind of applied stuff with players, and we’ve come up with a bit of a flexible framework that’s creating a lot of traction in a space that, you know, has been like a puzzle inside of a mystery, inside of an enigma, and we’ve got some really good kind of neuroscience behind us. And I’ve actually just come back from presenting at a world psychology conference on uh our work. So, it’s yeah, it feels kind of hopeful in a place that’s been hopeless. null. It’s amazing to me in golf um how and and this is a Nick Fellowism. I’ve been lucky to know him throughout my life where he’s like, you know, golfers never prepare for their B or C or D games when they practice or whatever. It’s just thinking of the best case scenario, right? But then when it comes to like the yips, it’s like how on earth do you prepare? In fact, a dear colleague of mine and friend, I won’t use his name, he is sort of a little yippy around the greens with a wedge. And he was one of the great short game artists of all time on the PGA tour. So, so, so I want you to elaborate a little bit there because again, like Trevor points out, this is one of those things we’re like, “Oh gosh, I got the hips. Yeah, how do I how do I practice? What do I do?” Yeah. Right. I mean, that’s it’s a it faces a lot of people. I mean, a good friend of mine is doing his PhD or has has actually just completed his PhD in the Yips. And the the data is like I mean, it’s like 50% of golfers will experience the yips at some point in their in their game. Um, which is a lot more than you might you might think, isn’t it? And you know, in some people it goes under the radar. They may not know they have the Yips, but I mean that is a that is a big a big number, isn’t it? So, I mean, initially it’s about it’s about really understanding some of the some of the patterns that are that are at play. I mean the first thing that people sort of try to do when they get the yips is I mean we’re talking let’s let’s talk chipping initially. I mean obviously it can happen in putting in full swing as well. I mean that’s a that’s a really uh upsetting thing to happen but let’s talk let’s talk chipping. That’s probably where it’s most most prevalent. Um I mean initially people just want to make sure that they strike the ball and they’ll do anything they can to strike it and in that desperation will recruit all the wrong processes, do all the wrong things and really start to spiral this thing this thing out of control. So I mean from from my side from the from the technical part of our our partnership here it is understanding the processes of um over control. So what it is to really over control what it is to to have too much ball focus. I mean that’s that will absolutely send you in the wrong direction. Um and learn learn drills that will encourage trust and flow and um and a better a better visual gaze on the ball. Believe it or not. Okay. A lot of the things we do to try and make sure that we strike it are actually, you know, sending us down the down in the wrong direction. Mhm. Okay. I want to mine this further, but before I go there, let’s put you into context for our global audience. It’s a partnership. Trevor Jones, null Russo. Um, Trevor, tell us about you a little bit before we dive in. Yeah, thank you, Mark. So, uh, I’m a PJ professional, but also a mental performance coach for a group called the UF Performance Group, and we look after special forces, military, air force, baseball, basketball, and of course, lots and lots of golfers. And um, as I was just mentioning kind of just before, I’ve just presented at a world conference with regards to our work in this space with the Yips. And uh you you know sometimes I like to ask people you know being interviewed on various podcasts with regards to this uh just just a really simple question that that kind of sets up a little bit of this framework that we use with the IPS. So do you mind if I ask you Mark like what do you like as a passenger in a car? Um the proper music being played a smooth ride a safe ride. Beautiful. And that word safety, like the answer of course is always it depends. It depends on who’s driving and it depends on how they’re driving. And I wonder if you can think of someone in your life who um maybe being a passenger when they’re driving is like you can feel just that little trickle of anxiety kind of showing up. I’m not going to say this is my wife, but she does have a lead foot. Yes. And I I wonder if you can imagine what your reaction might be if your wife was driving and you all of a sudden drove into heavy fog and then she hit the gas like that lead foot kicked in. I’d be stamping on the imaginary brick in the passenger seat. Okay. So this is exactly what happens with the yips. So the yips is where a part of us, our nervous system, specifically the vag nerve essentially pulls the handbrake. So we’re uh players who are suffering from the yips are essentially in the fog that they’re kind of being bombarded by either technical information or concern or a threat response and they’re in this very very fog-like experience. And they typically respond to that by trying to rush through it as quickly as possible so that the the lead foot kicks in, they hit the gas and then a part of them sees all of this and pulls the handbrake. And this is where you get these really clunky kind of movements. Um, and that’s essentially what we’re working with. So the flexible framework that we’ve created is juxtaposing what we call kind of bad driving with ace driving. So bad driving stands for blind spots, avoidance, and distraction. So typically, as null was saying, a lot of people don’t realize this is happening. It’s all very much under the radar. Uh or when it’s happening, they try and avoid it like crazy. So they try and go to lots of lots of different technical instructions. They try different techniques. They try and change their clubs. They try and change their grip. They try and metaphorically change the car that they’re driving in. And then they also try and distract their way through it. So they try singing a song or counting backwards or humming or, you know, the whole nine yards. And of course that just makes this passenger that’s pulling the handbrake more anxious not less. So we kind of flip it and what we’re looking for instead is what we call ace driving. So we initially just want to slow this whole thing down and just acknowledge what’s showing up in this place because typically the stuff showing up isn’t very comfortable but it is really important to acknowledge. Okay. So if bad stands for blind spots avoidance and driving distraction distraction forgive me. Um, space then I’m sure is an acronym for something or not. Acknowledge, compose, engage. So the first thing we need to do is kind of acknowledge how and where this is showing up. So that that sense of anxiousness that you thought about with your wife with the with the heavy foot. She might listen to is um is kind of locating where is that where does that reside in your body? And actually beginning to locate the origins of this kind of fear response is is really really powerful. From there we can start to build some compose skills, composure and then engage. You know when people are engaged in the struggle with this they become very uh they become so kind of problem focused they tend to lose connection with the type of journey that they actually want to be on with golf. It becomes all-encompassing. You know it’s a little bit like a black hole. It just pulls all of that resources into trying to solve this problem. Yes, I got another question for you, but first I want to introduce null. So null, Trevor is the PGA guy, but he’s just given me some very uh insightful insights there. Tell us about how you fit into this mix. Oh my goodness. So um yes, so I’m I’m a PGA PJ professional and uh initially I had a really sort of strong interest in sports psychology and I did a PhD in automaticity. So I I was listening to your recent podcast with Cole Morris around focus and selforganization. Well, that was that was my sort of eight year eight year research. So you know we’d have a lot to to to talk about with Carl. Um you know and and in that journey and you know around how we coordinate our movements and um how much we think about the swing. I mean that led really led me down a route of having developing a bit of a specialization with working with the yips. I mean, in my own game, I I I developed the yips as a teenager and sort of somehow managed to focus on certain parts of the swing that would almost kind of inoculate me from from having those sort of really sort of nasty strikes. And then and then over the years sort of developed a bit of a protocol for working with with players with the yips. And as the years went by, I I through my through my studies of psychology and a difference if you like to traditional sports psychology, I met I met Trevor who was on a similar path and and since then we’ve been we’ve been teaming up with this and and it really has, you know, made a made a big difference to the success that I’ve been having with players. Having that having that that that space where I can work with them on on technique and focus, etc., and then and then have Trevor backing up with some of the more in-depth um sort of emotional stuff that has been absolutely brilliant. Yeah, I want to keep it with you, but Trev, what null just said there wants me to pivot to you because like you talked about the black hole and how it becomes like all-encompassing. It could be like a health like a health issue like if you’ve got something wrong with you, it occupies your your mind and no matter how much you try and detract or focus elsewhere, it’s always there. You know, it’s it’s like going like if I’m going to play TBC Srass, I’m thinking about the 17th Island Green when I’m on the first tea. Maybe when I’m warming up before the time. Now, is beating the yips as as as much as where you talk about ace acknowledge. So, I acknowledge there’s an issue, compose myself. Is it as much as going, well, yeah, I know the 17th is coming. I know I have the yips, but I have the tools to overcome this. And even though I fail once or twice, I’m still on the road to recovery. Are you are you understanding where I’m trying to go with this? So beautifully said and that that that’s really profound actually because that that type of way of interacting with this is is really a powerful shift to make because very often clients are kind of stuck in this place of this must never happen again. Forever more. Amen. Yeah. like this this handbrake must never be pulled because of the embarrassment or because of the stigma or because of the the anxiety and all of that stuff. So so people end up in this space of playing golf on something the size of a postage stamp, right? They’re in this tiny little space where they can’t think what they think, they can’t feel what they feel, and they can’t experience what they experience. And of course, it’s just like my heart goes out to people in that space because it is, you know, they’re in for a torid time. So we’re kind of in a We’re working within this flexible framework of beginning to kind of start to unwind the space in which they get to play in. So starting to kind of broaden out, have them have a healthier relationship with essentially this part of them that’s not trying to hurt them. Like if you were reaching for the break with your wife driving, you’re not trying to hurt the driving process. You’re trying to protect the both of you, right? And and this part of people is trying to do the same thing. It’s not trying to hurt them. is trying to help them. It’s just going about doing so in a way that’s uh you know needs more flexibility. Yeah. Okay. Um gosh, so many thoughts. Null. Yeah. I mean, sorry to just to just to add to that and that I mean that that I think is probably one one of the biggest parts of our work together is is the is the you know the clients that come to us are just absolutely desperate to get rid of this thing at all costs and have no space for it at all. And you know, and if um and if if they if they if they go to a a practitioner, a swing coach, a hypnotherapist, etc., who claims that they’ve got the they’ve got the cure to this and they don’t get cured. Oh my goodness. I mean, that just spirals it out of control even more. So, you know, what you said was was brilliant. having having space to let this just to kind of, you know, acknowledge it and know that I’ve got it and know that it’s going to be around for a little while and I can do things that will slowly kind of move me in the opposite direction is is massive because the moment you absolutely have to cure the yips at all costs, then then it really starts to to grip you in a similar way, sorry, if I may say to myself as a as a youngster with a stutter. when I had a stutter in my early 20s in in a time where you know social confidence was important and the more I I tried to get rid of it again the more it gripped me and eventually I kind of got it and sure enough it just kind of went away over a period of years and you once in a while it might it might sort of crop up and I think that is analogist to to the yips if you cannot have it at all and must get rid of it that’s a that’s a a tough place tell me if you think I’m crazy here but as I’m listening to you guys I I’m taking this way beyond golf because my approach approach as an longtime instructor/broadcaster now podcaster um I take a very holistic sort of attack to improvement and I’m listening to you guys going goodness I I think people with sickness or whatever could be listening to this going where yeah this is all-encompassing where if you just acknowledge yeah I’m sick but I’m doing this to get better and I won’t it won’t happen overnight but you know I’m going to keep doing the right things and then I’m sort of going to stack the odds in my favor are you getting where I’m going a little bit here Trevor Uh that’s that’s a brilliant and beautiful observation because you know I I’ve learned so much more from clinical psychology than I have from sports psychology. Um when I kind of worked with clients with the IPS and this issue in the early days going about five six seven years ago quite frankly a lot of those interventions were about as deep as a puddle. Okay. So I’ve I’ve been on this kind of huge journey within clinical psychology and neuroscience and some other bits and pieces to kind of bring toward bring together a much more holistic view of what are the key processes involve that that help people to live better and it turns out that those same processes can be kind of applied anywhere. So it’s it’s a great observation and it just kind of struck me around this this this whole avoidance piece and like you said acknowledging that we are where we are. Um and if we juxtapose that with you know I’m trying to get away from this thing you know with a real sense of desperation. Well do you know what the the research says in clinical psychology? If you’re if if you’re not willing to feel anxious do you know what you get? What? You get panic which makes it even worse. You got it. Yeah. Okay. If you’re not if you’re not willing to have the experience, guess what you’re going to get more of? Yeah. It’s going to double down. Panic. Yeah. So, the more people try to kind of, you know, control the handbrake and control the dashboard and, you know, their thoughts are like the passengers in the back and the more they try and kind of control and don’t think about the 17th sawrass. Don’t think, you know, if I said to you, don’t think about a pink elephant. It’s first thing, right? And here we are. So, you know, like null was saying, letting the windows down, getting a bit of fresh air in the room, like it’s okay. We get to we can talk about this. Like Voldemort is Voldemort. That’s okay. We don’t have to run, fight, and hide from this. So, I remember actually just being uh pre-tornament. It was um a big big senior championship and I was I was kind of sat with one of my senior golfers uh who was struggling with this and and you could kind of just see he had about half an hour before he teed off and like what if this happens like what if this happens and I looked him straight in the eyes and I said I can guarantee you it will happen and and there was a palpable sense of relief that he was so relieved it was like I would have slept you if I was him but but not in this kind I wasn’t trying to do this clever reverse psychology, but just the relief like it’s okay. It’s okay. You can still play your game and you can still attend to these processes. The handbrake will be pulled, but there’s there’s this much bigger journey that you’re on. And it just this sense of relief. And actually, he went out and played beautifully, you know, and it wasn’t an issue. It’s like me in a blood pressure test. Okay, I digress. Null, you know, as you guys are talking, I got a few guys in my head. Will Zealatus, um, Lucas Glover, Ernie, and of course, Bernard Langanger, who’s beaten the Yips a few times. Now, with a lot of them, they just went to a different implement on the Greens, whether it was arm lock or a room handle putter or something. So they circumvented the the issue, the electricity in the hands for lack of a better descriptor, and the reactionary, well, I got to strike the ball because I can’t strike it right now with something that helped them in the physical sense. Is that enough to really help a person with a yips in your technical experience? Well, I mean that is interesting. So those those players you’re you’re talking about, that was um that was all putting, wasn’t it? Yeah, that’s all. And Yeah. and um and you know my my good friend Gordon Morrison who’s you know put a lot of time into this and did his PhD in the yips. So one of the things he found that putting and chipping the the way the yips functions is is really quite different. Um and a lot of the things that Gordon and I some of the interventions that we we developed you know a few years ago didn’t seem to connect with putting. But if you take your I mean putting the generally happens in the dominant hand um and if you take the dominant hand off the handle in putting it is almost always a I hate to use the word cure but a huge help. I mean you will see that the yips kind of disappear which is why why you see changes of putting grips certainly the claw and the the saw grips anything that takes the dominant hand off in putting. When you say dominant, you mean like the strong hand or the lead hand? Because it would be their the hand that they are they are handed, you know. So, right-handed golfer take takes their right hand off, you know, goes to a claw or a saw or the pencil grip or something that has relatively little control through that that dominant hand has um has staggering um staggering results. And and often these people when you ask them to hit a one hit a putt one-handed with their dominant hand, it is like they’re wrestling a snake. I mean, it’s there. And this is in non-anxiety conditions. And then there is this sort of electrical charge that sort of goes through that that dominant hand. Um so that’s that’s so that’s putting. Um so that is I wouldn’t have thought that’s everybody. I mean the yips you if you um in the academic literature is is is type one or type two. Type one being very much neurological in which case I mean that is almost hardwired and there’s stuff going on there that I mean I’m sure Trevor will have more to say but that is a hard fix. And then there’s the more anxiety based type two which is more around the interaction between technique and anxiety and experience etc. Um but putting relatively easy to to get around with with that you know taking the dominant hand off taking the dominant hand off chipping that’s that’s more difficult. It doesn’t really work does it? I mean you can’t really chip with a with a saw or starting to go left but they’re starting to go left hand low. There’s an increased incidence of that stuff in the game. Absolutely. And that would be definitely an intervention I would absolutely, you know, give it a try and and see if we can loosen the problem with it. Um I’ve seen many people have great success with that. I’ve seen people still with that. Um but it’s definitely, you know, worth a go. I wanted to keep it here real fast. Um because I remember Will, it was at the 2022 PGA Championship and I was on the call for CBS and I had his group was him and Cam Young and they both had the lead at one stage and Cam made a late mistake on 16 and Will 17 to get into or one back I think it was of me Pereira or two back and on 18 drives in trouble gets it on the green in three and holds a downhill 10footer for par. And the stroke, we played it back multiple times cuz the stroke looked like it was a heart rate monitor going back. I mean, the thing back and forth, but he caught enough ball that the thing went downhill and went in the hole. And we he walked off the green and walked past me and in a loud voice kind of looked at me and he goes, “Who said I can’t putt it?” And I was like, “Me? I’m hardly saying that was the smoothest stroke in the world, but you got the ball into the hole and it sort of struck me in a way because there was clearly an issue because he’s gone to work on it. In a way, he overcame that in the situation despite the wiggly stroke still to get the ball into the hole. Now, is that overcoming the yips or is that just purely incidental? Um, what’s your views on that, Trevor? Um I mean I mean I think it’s uh it is very very common place um that when people are struggling with this one of the mechanisms that’s kind of driving uh a lot of the issues and particularly in terms of the the anxiousness and the the bad driving um is how they’re relating to others. So there’s a lot of this kind of pho fear of other people’s opinions that’s kind of you know so if you’re driving along the car you’re constantly looking around and checking who’s behind me who’s to the side who’s witnessing this who’s watching this and of course you know some I’ve said this to null before you know nobody ever developed the yips on a desert island. Ah okay. Yeah true. Like this is very nested in a social context like how we’re relating to others because way back when you know if we did something to have ourselves ejected from the the you know we grew up in small groups and tribes. If we did something that that had us ejected from the group then we were you know basically a dead man walking. You know a lone monkey is a dead monkey is the the famous expression that came out of evolutionary psychology. So, we’re super super conscious and particularly when this is happening and it’s it’s highly aversive, we naturally get, you know, as in Will’s case, you’ve really got his backup about this. You know, he was responding with this sense of actually I can do this guys, right? Trying to make sure that he’s he still could stay in this place of uh being seen by others as being competent essentially. But in terms of him holding that punt and um you know grip change and putter changes and significant things like this, you know, it’s almost like um particularly with that change of of grip is almost like changing where the steering wheel is in the car, you know, and going from left-hand drive to right hand drive. And what can happen is it can open up a little bit of a window where your natural responses and what your brain is basically predicting is is now kind of scrambled because it’s not sure what’s going to happen. So, it’s interesting when you get these huge changes in either changing the car or or kind of changing where the steering wheel is, you get this little bit of a window of opportunity where if you can add in some ace driving, some some of these other processes, then you can actually begin to drive away much more freely because the brain isn’t not isn’t sure what to predict, wasn’t isn’t sure what to expect. So, that that’s often where you can see some success. But it’s not just the change, it’s the change plus the improvement in driving. saw that with Lucas Glover. Gosh, I mean, he he hit a putt one time. It was plastered all over social media with this putting stroke that he made. There was a low level of the camera and the ball from like 5T and he barely made contact. I mean, I I felt nauseious just watching it for him. Then he went to the broom handle putter and the next thing he wins twice in a row and he’s making every turning over just by that what you talk about. Yeah. And I believe he did a lot of work with a um a former Navy Seal Yes. And and they did a lot of what’s called exposure work. So really getting in touch with the the thing that was really the feared experience like we said before about acknowledging um so they really he spoke a lot about attacking it. So from a Navy Seal speak um you know getting in touch with the thing that was feared and what you do in terms of that um exposure experience is you begin to learn some new ways of responding to it. So the the the anxious kind of handbreak, you know, quite linear experience he was having with that stuff he did with the former Navy Seal, you know, really helped develop some new responses in that space. Is exposure experience something you use sometimes, null, when you’re working with players? I mean, yeah. I mean, so when I’m when I’m working with them, I am um I am, you know, well, I’m there working with them actually playing the shots at the time, you know. So Trevor would be, you know, having conversations and going to the deep issue. I am I am there while they’re while they’re chipping away. And you know, the can be a difficult one to work with because oftentimes while they’re with me and feeling in a safe space and they have they have um they are willing to get it wrong. I mean, when you’re willing to get it wrong, then you have more space and and t things tend to go a whole lot better. So being able to recreate that scenario and create some level of exposure, I mean, that’s that’s important, isn’t it? Um difficult to create. I don’t I I I don’t put them in a spot that puts huge pressure on, but I will try and put them in a spot where there’s people around. I mean, as Trevor Trevor mentions, having the whole desert island thing, having that social context is is huge. So, I would definitely do that, but also um interestingly, I would try and have them bring up um a lot of the negative chatter as well. So, um, a lot of the the psychology that that that Trevor and I would work would be to work with would be to recognize that we can have negative chatter and it’s okay to to have that going on as long as you are still paying attention to to the important things, you know, the motion of the club, etc., and what we’re working on. So, I’d often I would do what’s called a diffusion exercise where I would ask them to say before they hit the shot, I’m going to duff it or I’m I’m going to completely top it. And then I might have them brush the ground while saying those things. Um, so they’re saying, “I’m going to duff it.” Meanwhile, just nicely brushing the ground. Then they step into the ball and they say, “Oh, I’m going to I’m going to top it.” Meanwhile, just paying attention to brushing the ground. And of course, with their attention on brushing the ground, they get it right. And this sort of slowly has them sort of diminish that sense of what is what their mind is saying is is actually what’s going to happen. So that when those negative thoughts do do come up on the course, which is I would say almost inevitable, again, as Trevor would say, there’s a different way of responding. They know that just because the mind is saying I’m going to duff it does not mean is that we’re going to duff it and also means we don’t have to play this game of whack-a-ole with our thoughts where we’re have to stop change think of something positive and then kind of go through that whole that whole game. remember Bob Ratellis telling me one time, he’s been like a mentor to me. He goes, “Listen, I’ve seen countless golfers with negative thoughts hit great shots and countless golfers with very positive thoughts hit great shots. As long as you kind of know what you got to do, then you most of the way there.” Absolutely. Yeah. Superb. Um, I I’m not sure where to go, but I want to I want to swing this to you, please, Trevor, because I’m trying to put myself in the place of the yipper and the person who’s listening to this going, “Okay, I I feel safe. I’m understanding what they’re saying, but but I want to make this actionable for them.” But before we go there, aside from working with you guys, before we go there though, you’d made the point that now thing you everything you guys are teaching and coaching and and advising on, mentoring in that there’s now neuroscientific proof behind this stuff, which I think would put people’s minds at ease a little bit more. Like if I’m going to the doctor and he goes, “Well, look, science proves this. We do this and this and that.” You’re going to be fine. So, so, so share that insight with us, please. Yeah. How um how deep do you want to go? But I I’ll try and keep it up here at this this really kind of light space because the neuroscience gets kind of Well, we just I’ll stop you while you think about it. We just had a neuroscience. Well, we got had a few on the show. Most recent guy’s Izzy Justice who wrote he’s wrote various books and he’s written this one. Your brain swings every club chasing 10 hertz. You’re nodding. No. Okay. So, go where you wish. So, so what we know what we now kind of understand and and this has been the most exciting kind of theory to come along in neuroscience for a long time is that the brain is um well maybe if I ask you this question like have you ever noticed how hard it is to be present? Your questions make me nervous. How hard it is to be present. Yes, it’s very hard and I would say I would argue it’s becoming increasingly hard given the world in which we currently live. 100% that the world is kind of pulling our attention in certain directions. But also what we now understand about the brain specifically and the system that we’ve gone is our brain isn’t designed to be present. Our brain is designed to predict. Okay? So the whole system that we’re working with is designed to predict what’s going to happen next. And of course what it’s using to predict about what’s going to happen next is what came before. So there’s this constant kind of toggling between past and future. And that really is the system that that we’ve got. So I sometimes term these like the backseat drivers. So if you think about all of your thoughts as being like backseat drivers and they’re constantly like, “What’s that? Look out. What what’s that red light? Watch out.” You know, there’s all of this going on. And of course, what they’re toggling between is what’s up ahead and what’s in the rearview mirrors, like what came before. Yeah. So they are just all constantly, you know, toggling between those two experiences. And if we don’t have the the skills to be able to compose ourselves as null was saying to be able to kind of just just gently name that. And you know to give you a kind of feet on the ground example of this you know I had one client whose whose passengers or his mind was particularly um critical of him. So any small mistake his mind would just absolutely jump on him and tear him to pieces. Uh you know a backseat driver type experience. And I said to him you know is there anyone in your life who’s kind of a bit like that? you know, points out your shortcomings, you know, lets you know about your mistakes. And he just paused for a moment. He was like, “Oh my goodness, that’s my mother-in-law. You’re going to get people into trouble with this show.” You know, so we ended up calling his backseat driver, Barbara. That was his mother-in-law. Oh, brilliant. So, when whenever this stuff showed it showed up for him, he could just be like, “Oh, yeah. Thanks, Barbara.” You know, thank thanks for that. You know, eyes back on the road. Let’s start driving. I can see hundreds of thousands of golfers around the world now have calling the bad thought Sandy. You know what? In a funny way though, that’s liberating, null, because it’s like I always say to golfers when I give golf lessons, like if they’re doing like course management stuff. I’m like the great army generals of the world, they won because they were good strategists and they understood their arsenal of weapons. So, first off, they had good recon. They knew the the the landscape in which they were fighting and they knew what they were capable of doing and they didn’t do anything else and you kind of then know who the enemy is because if you know the enemy is then you know where to direct your focus. Now, not that you’re directing your focus on the yips, but what Trevor is saying here makes a lot of sense because I’m like, “Okay, this noise that’s in my head. I’m going to name this and say this is not real. This is just Sandy.” And I’m going to go about doing what null wants me to do in terms of just brushing the grass for argument sakes or something simple and technical that allows the stroke to become more smooth and more repeatable. Absolutely. I mean, um I mean, yes. Um so we are um I mean between us there is a a a deep understanding of or a common understanding should I say of the the the correct processes that we’re trying to you know send send people send people down that direction we’re trying to send people down and and having uh having that sense of your your mind is not reality. You know we it is just you know thoughts that appear is is certainly one of them. having that open space to to allow things to go wrong. That playfulness, if you like, is is another big one. Um, and then from a technical perspective, I mean, there’s there’s probably half a dozen absolutely core things that I would work with, which which Trevor is also, you know, quite familiar with. So, you know, when when the when the student is working with Trevor, he’s he he knows what I’ve worked on and vice versa. There is that that commonality. I want to I want to give a quick lesson with the both of you involved to golfers who have the yips like well I might not get to see these guys but I want to use some of the techniques. Okay. Um but before we go there I want both of you to respond to this question with a quick answer. The yips because I think people mistakenly make it all physical. It’s the reaction in my hands with a driver or a putt or whatever the case may be. The yips more mental more physical. What’s what’s the answer in both of your opinions? We just wrote an article for the PGA magazine here in the UK and the opening line was um about zebras. Are they white with black stripes or black with white stripes? And and what we basically went on to say is it’s the it’s the wrong question. It’s the wrong question. The question is really like how do we get this zebra moving in a in a positive direction? So for some people I let let me say it this way. So a lot of historical traditional psychology has been very kind of just dropping down ideas onto you know populations. So this this kind of this is what the studies say. This works for everyone. But what it works out is that’s a really horrible way to look at human beings because we don’t get a one-sizefits-all. We get a oneizefits none. Okay. Right. A lot of those processes don’t fit anyone. So my response to that would be is it this one or is it this one? It’s probably both and it’s bespoke to the person. So at times it’s going to be leaning a little bit more towards the technical as where where kind of null would come in. At times it’s going to be leaving leaning a little bit more towards the psychological which is where I would come in. But generally speaking it’s a combination of both and there’s a little bit of a wiggling path to kind of find out what works for the individual. And and in that, Trevor, I mean, I’ve had I’ve had some some students who’ve come to me and a couple of sessions, you know, that their yips are absolutely um manageable, should we say, or almost sort of, you know, almost not there anymore. Again, not want to use the word cure. And I wouldn’t I wouldn’t even send them to Trevor. I mean, they just seem to be happy and on their way. There’s not many, but that that sometimes is the case. And I’m sure you would have the same experience where you wouldn’t wouldn’t send them my way. But the the vast majority of cases having the having that that double play of the technique the the attentional processes that I would sort of um you know suggest for them and your sort of deeper work is is absolutely where it needs to be. Okay, one more question along those lines. No. Um I’m a golf instructor deep down and now have a microphone which has made me more well known. But I would always, and looking back, maybe it was intellectually lazy of me, but any problem in golf was always a golf swing problem or a putting stroke problem. It was physical. But now I’ve learned more and I’ve learned there’s more to it. And now it’s in a weird way, I’m sort of gravitating towards a lot of these golf swing melodies are a function of misunderstanding or misinformation or something that’s more of the mental variety. So, so that’s sort of where I’m sitting. Um, but the yips, could it be a function or could the yips happen because I’ve had like really wonky wonky chipping action my entire life. Then I started mishitting a bunch of them. Then I built this fear of the chipping shot and then the thing perpetuated. AB: Absolutely. Yeah. And and and there will be a uh a portion of of golf coaches who will see it as you’re completely that way. there’ll be uh yips um yips deniers if you like who who see it as completely technical which in turn creates the anxiety you which is what you’ve explained isn’t it um and and and certainly because for some people you know having poor technique and a whole history of poor shots and everything that goes with it will will then develop into the yips but I mean there’s so many so many scenarios where that’s not the case and you just see people with lovely technique or certainly highly functional technique um and and the yips still arrive so yeah I mean as saying the yips comes in all all all different forms. Um, and that is just one of them. All right, cool. But but in to that point, I would always start with technique. I mean, I always start with clearing up the obvious things, which are lots of lag, low point issues, lots of sway, etc. Um Um, I would I would get get to the point where it’s simple and functional, and then we can start working on on deeper stuff. I mean, you don’t want to be working on the mental stuff when you’ve got a whole load of other other issues clouding the the situation. Well, you’re preaching, brother. And you’ve said exactly what I was feeling because look, I was a good player back in my day. Um, always been a, you know, decent instructor, sought out by people. And now I play golf ceremonially. And I’ve always been a tremendous pitcher of the golf ball. But now living in the southeast of the United States in the summertime, it’s grainy and you get some really tight lies. And I’ve landed one or two of them in the wrong place. And I’ve hit ground before ball and the ball’s moved just a few feet in front of people. Yeah. And now it doesn’t matter how much I focus on the path of the club being correct in the landing spot. I get over the ball and I’m still like, “Oh shit.” Yeah, you’re laughing cuz you know cuz cuz this is the origin. Not that I’m yippy yet, but I’m standing over the ball going, “Okay, I know I’ve got to do this, but holy cow. Um, this club’s feeling like a little bit of a rattlesnake in my hands.” So have a go. Help me, Trevor, please. So Mark, we’ve identified that there are four key contextual factors in terms of predicting whether the yips uh you know appear and get worse. So one of them is actually injuries. So we call that the fender benders. So I’ve had quite a few clients with full swing yips who actually have a long injury history and the uh the body develops kind of like holding patterns again to try and prevent further accidents. So fender benders would be one. Um, driving without insurance is another one. And this is um this is kind of like the sad piece of this. It’s where um in their younger years or going kind of if you retrace people’s kind of footsteps a little bit, you’ll find that when mistakes were made, they were punished. So that can be coaches, parents, uh think of a Will’s Alitor, social media just jumping on him. Yeah. So that’s like driving without insurance. The ethmology of that word insure means to make safe. So there’s a sense of not being safe kind of in that situation. And we’ve also got uh an apologies for this, but I call them STDs. And STDs stand for uh socially transmitted dogmas. I wanted to tidy that up real quick, but it does get a good laugh with my college kind of players. Um so socially transmit dogmas these kind of ideas and these cultural beliefs that are just kind of in the water supply which you know something like in order to play well I must feel confident right like I I have to have this feeling I’m not allowed to feel you know out with the anxiety in with confidence and what ends up happening unfortunately is people start putting out of bound stakes around certain experiences so all of a sudden anxiousness doubt worry concern these stuff show up and people are like no no no I can’t have that. And metaphorically, they’re putting out a bound stakes around what what they can and can’t experience. And of course, then the golf course just gets narrower and narrower and narrower. And then the final one is what I call paper cuts. So it’s like death by a thousand paper cuts. That’s kind of the one you’re describing where people have these little paper cut moments and then all of a sudden it starts being like, uhoh, uhoh, I’m here again. They start getting they start they start getting triggered and they start kind of seeing a certain lie or a certain club or a certain situation, a certain per person watching. And of course, now their backseat drivers have a lot to say. Now they’re starting to worry about their technique. They kind of sense the red and blue lights almost like the police are following them. They’re looking in the rearview mirrors. They’re checking around. And of course, what they’re not doing is they’re not ace driving. So those are the four those are the four factors. I think if I if I can add to that, Trevor, I think what you were alluding to, Mark, there was that that grainy grass. I I’m um I’m an ambassador at a club called Mterrey in in the Algav in Portugal where it’s all Bermuda grass and if you’ve got that that lie which is into the grain um having having anxiety and worry about it is absolutely the appropriate response to to that to that shot. You need a you need a different technique. You need to understand how to use the bounce and you need to understand that, you know, this could go wrong and I’m going to be okay with it. Um, we we need we can’t we can’t just jump in there and approach it as if I’m all confident with this. I’m gonna drive the front edge in like I do normally. You It’s gonna embarrass you every time. Do you know the alternate response to said shutters for me? A somewhat wise golfer is uh just turn a potential disaster into mitigate that by putting something safely on the green with a different club, even a putter if it’s possible, you know, just to kind of get by the situation. Absolutely. And and again, if you’re into into the grain and you know, it’s that that particular lie, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. You there’ll be part of you that says, you know, I’ve wimped out of this, but absolutely that’s just clever. Well, here’s the thing. You guys have been great. Um I mean, I could keep you forever because my my mind just is spinning. You you make a statement and I go elsewhere in my head, but I’m trying to stay on the tracks here. Um, you’ve you made such a good statement, Trevor, where you’re like, “It’s not one size fit fits all, it’s one size fits none.” So, I would be doing people a disservice to have you guys say, “Okay, if you got the yips, go and try this.” You’re given plenty of ideas. You’ve at least shed light on the thing where they can now approach the thing with less trepidation and more hope. Okay. Now, I don’t know if you guys Well, I don’t know if you give online lessons, but if people were looking to search you out to get your takes on stuff, where would they find you guys? What’s the social media? How how do people get in touch with you? So, on Instagram and and just I also want to say just it’s been such a thrill kind of coming on to the show and sharing a lot of the work that we’ve done over the last few years. And it’s it’s a really really tough place to be. So, we’re excited to share this work. So, massive thanks for having us on. Um, I can be found on Instagram. TrevorJones_aware is probably one of the best places to find me. And I guess null, your website is a pretty good place for uh Yeah, probably. So, uh, um, golf coach.online. Um, or my YouTube channel, golf coach Dr. Null. I’m gonna come and find you and Neil Garve when I got some time off eventually somewhere sometime. Yeah, you’d love it. Listen, guys, you’ve been so great. This is such a a scary sort of a topic and you know for me it was a challenge to navigate this thing. Um but it needs to be talked about because you say 50% of the world’s golfers are struggling with this melody in one have struggled at some point. Yeah. At some point in their career will experience the hips. Well, it’s it’s incredible. So I’m glad we got to shed light on it. I’m so glad you guys would share the information and the insights and I hope people will reach out because you know golf has blessed me wildly and that’s why I do what I do here and you know we’re supposed to play this game because we you ask folks why you play golf well for the relaxation and for the camaraderie and stuff you know that’s all fine and dandy till you’re standing over a five-footer and you don’t feel like you can make contact no fun in that and and and you guys have made me feel good about this cuz I feel like at least doing something to set people on the right path. So, thanks for joining me. I appreciate it. Thank you, Mark. Absolute pleasure. It’s been great.