Does The U.S. Ryder Cup Points System Even Make Sense?

Matt and Dom discuss the current system for players to earn points towards the U.S. Ryder Cup selection process, and whether the system is best suited to selecting the best possible players.

well one question which is an obvious question is should Keegan play on his own team i think another question that’s interesting is is the RDER Cup point system which is something we’re going to get into does it need to be restructured and I don’t know the answer to that are you saying that because everything seems to be geared right now towards the rich get richer with the way that the signature events give more FedEx Cup points so if you’re in a signature event it’s easier for you to stay ahead of the rest of the Chasing Pack almost like if you’re in this week’s Rocket Classic you have to perform better to get anywhere near the points that a person that might be 10 spots farther down on the leaderboard or more would get at at a signature event something like that i’m not I’m not saying the math is correct i just give you an example yes yes all of that is exactly correct yes all right that’s and I have examples and we have graphics and we can go over this now if you want or later but no let’s save it because I want to get to this sound but what what was the third option for for the question of the day uh I well I I can’t help but think about who’s going to win the RDER Cup it’s a lame question and it’s early but I it’s at the top of my brain because of Keegan i just feel like there’s a there’s an aura around him being involved in New England that just makes it feel like the US team has an edge this year well it’d be in the Northeast because they’re just outside of New England but uh for for Beth Paige Black it’s not far it’s only across those three yeah i mean of those three I would tell you the one that would interest me would be where the people fall on the question of whether Keegan should or should not be on his own team and the reason why I’m saying that because and I talked about this yesterday i I talked about it before a trip and Jim joined us but for whatever reason it kind of seems like the the pundit establishment in Gulf the talking heads if you will and I’m not trying to be disparaging i’m just saying who they are uh it kind of seems like that constituency is against Keegan being a playing captain and they all reference the same thing it’s like ah there’s too many logistics there’s too much to do it’s it’s too much to ask of this individual meanwhile I’m I’m always suspect when somebody else makes a judgment of what you are or are not capable of i mean how do they know what what contingencies that you have planned with the people that you have around you you you’ve put those people around you for a reason right and to and to the question of Keegan who’s ninth in the points right now I get it there’s still time that’s another thing they always say they kind of poo poo it by going “Ah please let’s not talk about what’s happening right now it’s so long it’s not that long.” And he’s shown consistent performance seventh in the world and ninth in the standings i was talking to Andrew prior to the show about it and it’s like if he if he missed every cut from here to the end then maybe he’s going to drop out but considering the way he’s playing and the fact that he just won the Travelers he will not miss every cut from here on out so that’s not going to happen but you could open up a schedule right now and you could count how many opportunities he has to miss a cut between now and when the announcements it’s not that many six or eight events it’s really not that many so then then you’d have the conversation just like we did last time when he wasn’t picked and should have been where he had won multiple times and didn’t get in which caused us to question again I mentioned this on yesterday’s show i should have had you grab some clips from those guys they were unbelievable you know what it’s probably even less honestly it’s probably even less events than you mentioned right because he’s playing this week at the Rocket i would imagine he’s going to take the John Deere off and then go over to the UK early to play in the Scottish and then the Open well the Scottish is is a co-sanction so he’ll definitely do that and then in between because he’s already going to be in the playoffs so the Barracuda the 3M Open and the Windham Championship going into the the FedEx Cup playoffs he doesn’t have to play in any of those three my guess is he only plays in one of them so that’s this week the the Scottish that’s two the Open that’s three and then the Barracuda the 3M and the Windham pick one of those that’s four and then you have three playoff events that’s seven and then you’re at the RDER Cup and that might be generous he might not even play in seven it might be six that’s That’s Well that’s why I said six or eight it might be less than that and then someone could could say well wait a minute what the playoffs aren’t going to have the same structure as a regular event etc so all I’m saying is is if you if we’re not talking about Keegan Brad they call it player XYZ and they’ve had the level of performance that he’s had this year and he’s won this year and in almost July in late June at the very least he’s ninth on the standings and what’ you tell me seventh in the world or eighth currently seventh in the world seventh in the world currently if it was player XYZ we’d all be looking at that list going “Oh yeah that guy.” And it’s not because he’s captain that I’m saying this it’s because he’s a player that can help Team USA and the fact that he is captain doesn’t mean that he becomes part of the establishment of the mentality be behind the the United States Rder Cup team isn’t that part of what his naming was about doing something radically different didn’t Keegan himself tell us that he always felt like an outsider right he didn’t have that seat at the popular table so I don’t think he didn’t get a spot last time because of performance his performance was there and better than some who were picked for the team no it’s because he wasn’t good buddies with the right guy for better or for worse that was part of the criteria because they wanted to match up players and skills and don’t get me wrong I’m not sitting here saying that that is something that should be thrown out with the wash that’s a choice that a captain makes and they have that right to make that when they go down the road but I’m am talking about Keegan and why he’s there it tells me that the PGA of America who administers the American side of the RDER Cup said “Folks we need to change things up here we need to do something different we need to find a way to break out of whatever the mindset is that’s kept us where we are we need someone that’s going to and I said this the other day too so forgive me i mentioned that just so I’m not terribly redundant in your mind but you need the person that the other players will run through a wall for well in Keegan’s case he’s running through that wall with you so I don’t know statistically it’s even backed up Matt i mean he’s top 30 on tour again if you’re talking about what you were saying just player A right he’s top 30 on tour in strokes gain total strokes gain T to green strokes gain off the TE strokes gain approach to green and strokes gain around the green literally he’s top 30 in all these i mean he’s third on tour in T Green his finish at the Travelers that’s very good golf his finish at the Travelers should be enough right there like if we were talking about where’s Billy where’s Billy a lot of time between now and September but you know that’s that’s what I keep being told I and I’m not buying that but where’s Bill to Andrew’s point before the show Matt the six events we just talked about let’s just say it’s those six if he misses the cut in all six he will drop outside the top 12 on that list now I’m not saying that’s going to happen i also think that the other guysly unlikely it depends on what the other guys are doing i could see Maverick holding on i would love to see Andrew Novak bump up there if his if his rib is okay and he played pretty well with the with the li rij injury frankly I don’t care if Patrick Kent lays on the team um I’d like to see I’d like to see Daniel Burgerer rise up in the rankings but didn’t Keegan mention that he wants more experience like he weighs experience over less experience yes of course well who would be a rookie from this list ben Griffin JJ Spawn right now those are rookies those would be rookies yeah on the RDER Cup team and then Maverick McNeely if he was picked although I’m not sure Russell Henley is in a Ryder Cup are you talking Ryder Cup or President’s Cup is that why you’re No I’m talking only exclusively about Ryder Cup because cuz Keegan mentioned the rookie comment not rookie but less experience and I’m looking at this one let’s go on the other side does that mean he doesn’t want to take a chance with someone who’s younger like an Andrew how many rookies did Europe have in Rome if memory serves with they had like five didn’t they i can confirm that but yes I think it was a lot it was but again I’m not going to I’m not going to argue with with a captain’s philosophy when they’re captain because they can do what they want to do that’s that’s the prerogative that goes with it but all I’m saying is I just I can’t see Keegan going out of the focus regardless because you’re still talking about a player that won this year now now here’s the question I was asking i haven’t got an answer yet where is Billy Horell on the points list they had four rookies they had four rookies okay fair enough you You’re asking for who horchel Horchel’s 26th all right horchel’s 26 if Billy had finished at the Travelers do what do they call it the videos when you put somebody else’s face on a deep fake or whatever if somebody deep faked that it was Billy Horchel instead of instead of Keegan Bradby that finished the way he finished at the Travelers how many people on social media and probably the same pundits are saying that Keegan shouldn’t be a playing captain would be saying this is why we need Billy Horchel on that wall look at the way he finished he’s down three on the 15th green and he ends up winning did he need help at the top of the leaderboard yeah he need help at the top leaderboard that’s what it’s about because it essentially came down to from that point on this was match point you were two down three strokes but eventually two down win 16 have 17 wins 18 right so that’s brings up the points that brings up the points situation that’s that’s sort of maybe impacting this andrew put that we go down this road we we’ve started so let’s let’s keep rolling so yeah no the other one Andrew the um Yes that one sorry so look at look at this this is what we were talking about just a little while ago Matt about how the point system is a little bit wonky you’ve got player A player B player A player B you can see right there if you’re watching the difference there you got 32nd in the standings versus 22nd in the standings and the corresponding how they’re playing a win no wins a good finish in a major a bad finish in a major an equal number of top 25s but one is 10 spots lower i don’t know if that’s good Matt i I’m concerned about that i’m not sure that system is correct so just so I understand what graphic you put up here these are actual these are actual people that you’re showing us and you’re saying yes player A is 32nd in standings yet player A has a win this year they just had a top eight at the PGA and they’ve had five top 25s versus player B who I have to presume is a player that’s that’s uh through prior year performance is grandfathered into signature events is 22nd in the standings has no wins was tied for 46 at the Masters and has five top 25s player when you say 22nd standings and we’re talking about Rder Cup point standings Correct okay so you’re trying to illustrate that because of the way that the FedEx Cup points or No it wouldn’t be FedEx Cup in this case it’d be it’d be uh it’s money paid it’s money andrew can you put can you put the uh explainer for the point system i know this is semi complicated but I think it impacts all of this that’s why we keep ending up with the same people on the team let me just read this graphic for those that might be listening on the on the radio side us RDER Cup point system all US players will have the opportunity to earn points beginning in 2024 and concluding in 25 prior to the tour championship the exact date pending final 2025 PGA Tour schedule obviously this was written before that 2024 one point per $1,000 earned for all players making the cut at the players the four major championships being the Masters of PJ Championship US Open and the Open 2025 the point system counting events and values will be determined it says at a later date once a 25 PJ tour schedule has been finalized okay so RDER Cup team USA qualifying criteria six players qualifying points and six captain’s picks of the 2024 majors I told you about $1.4,000 uh 2024 players $1.4,000 you have to make the cut obviously or else you wouldn’t get paid 2025 regular PGA Tour events one point per $1,000 for all players those are regular PGA Tour events 2025 major championships one and a half points per $1,000 so the majors in the year of the RDER Cup are 50% points bonus against the money that you earn for every $1,000 no points for the 2025 opposite field events in the PGA Tour points end after the BMW championship that’s the second event in the FedEx Cup playoffs keegan Bradley picks following the Tour Championship points ranking does not guarantee qualification for the RDER Cup players must separately meet all eligibility requirements that little caveat there is so politics the I know there’s a lot of complexity there but to boil that down into a sentence the the issue that I think may exist from this is that for the signature events the dollar amount is so much higher than a quote regular PGA Tour event that you get so many RDER Cup points for finishing 19th in the Travelers and you don’t get that many points for finishing third in the John Deere Classic so the weight is I think really a huge disparity all right so go back i’m not saying that’s right or wrong i’m asking I’m asking is that right or wrong does that need to be adjusted well this this comes down to again Andrew go back to player A and B graphic please um that goes that goes back to what you know what I would say all the time with with uh the question of the day and why we ask people their opinion because the way it’s structured right now and look you can’t you can’t say that the travelers wasn’t an incredible wild success it’s a signature event right Trip Eisenhower was on with this yesterday has consistently said to me he doesn’t like the no cut events so instead of having 80 players in the field you don’t have to go to a full field 156 but how about at least 100 how about 120 right so you have this opportunity for kind of a lightning in a bottle uh why have that much disparagy between one versus the other well the reason why they’re doing it in my view is so that they can go to media partners so that they can go to uh sponsors and go “Look I’m going to give you your stars because it’s pretty much a field of stars.” Right and that’s the direction that the tour is going and so is there anybody out there clamoring for the guy who’s 70th in points right now i’m talking about keeping your card because they have to be 100 or less let’s go to a guy who’s 85 dom look that up for me if you would give me give me names of guys between 80 and 90 that are in there right now but they’re kind of getting close to the bubble between 80 and 90 what in the in the FedEx Cup or in the Yeah it’d be FedEx Cup points yeah okay because you have to get you have to get inside the top 100 and you could even go up to like 110 just throw a few names at me what I’m trying to get at is the way that the that the system is structured now is to keep the stars there which means it’s it’s kind of a reflection of of life from that standpoint where once you have it it’s easier to keep it than you trying to grind up there and get it but in this case it’s impacting potentially the RDER Cup because what Dom is talking about uh Andrew I’m going to have you bring that graphic up again player A or player B and and Dom while I know you’re looking up something else but you know who player A and B are go ahead and tell us who these play if if that was your intention tell us who player A and B is it wasn’t necessarily the intention i’m just trying to show the disparity i think if I showed the names there would be uh sort of a pre-existing notion that I didn’t want anybody to have no I know you’re not trying to be biased but these are real human beings so I’m asking you who they are give me on on the column left player A and player player A in the top left is Joe Highmith okay player B in the bottom left is Windam Clark player A in the top right is Andrew Novak yeah baby he’s 13th in the standings player B in the bottom right is Colin Morawa and that goes along with what you were saying Matt about sort of the rich get richer and the the the big names that we’re used to hearing from just sort of find themselves at the top of the standings seemingly no matter what they do and a player like Andrew Novak who you can see right there player A in the top right a win of second place eight top 25s four top 10s he is by all statistical accounts playing better than K Marawa but he is much further down in the standings literally he’s outside of even of a captain’s pick territory right now no this is an excellent I’m not say I’m not trying to say this is right or wrong i’m bringing this to to your attention and saying do we have an issue here well it it comes down to another thing that we’ve discussed and I’m not talking about us in this show but at large the discussion being do you want to have a team that has this inherent whether it’s systematic or or whether it’s by application do you want to have a team that’s basically an old boys network where you have the same players ers who are at times whether it be right now with Colum Oraawa he’s he’s seventh in his standing he has no wins he do does have two second place finishes to his credit nine top 25s whereas Andrew Novak has a win and a second he has eight top 25s against nine for Colin but he has four top 10s against three for Colin and like Dom said in each each particular category safe top 25s uh he’s he’s in a better position but he’s he’s almost twice as far down the down the points list and whether it’s Colin can I give you can I just give you an example really quick to get a little bit to get a little bit more specific to talk about what I’m talking about at the John Deere Classic if you finish in fourth place you get $390,000 for fourth place at the Travelers Championship you get $960,000 for finishing in fourth place that’s almost triple points when you’re talking about converting that by $1,000 to points for the RDER Cup so finishing fourth place in two different events it’s triple the points for that player at the Travis Championship now I’m not saying that I mean obviously a signature event is by all accounts a little bit more important the field is a little bit uh stronger the purse is bigger all of those things are a reality they’re an elevated event quote unquote but triple points seems like a lot Matt that seems like a lot yeah but but what I’m saying is is that the pragmatic effect of that is you’re going to get the same group of players again and I’m not trying to point fingers at anybody individually but do you want fresh blood or is it otherwise the establishment and what I’m all I’m saying you want to hear who’s 90 to 110 on this list yeah I’m curious about that too yes just pick out a few these are these are the players on the FedEx Cup standings between like 90 and 110 and the cuto off again to Matt’s point this year is is 100 so I’m just going to barrel through names max McGravy Lee Hodes Chris Goddarup Andrew Putnham Victor Perez Henrik Norlander Mark Hubard Austin Ecro Sam Ryder Zack Johnson Justin Lure Kevin Roy Chris Kirk Ameliano Grio Chan Kim Bran Stenker Vince Whley Adam Shank Ricky Castillo Ricky Hoey Jeremy Paul Michael Thor Bjornson right now the reason why I had you look up those is to is to to have people search your hearts here for a second when you’re talking about a signature event that by its very nature is structured for the stars of the game and it’s structured for those reasons that I gave you and the ratings are great and people are interested and all the rest right because ratings were up 35% for Keegan’s win on the prior year it connected with people big time 35% is a huge rating spike so okay do you look at that and go “Look I get it but the PGA Tour is not a social program if if you want to be viewed as one of the stars make more putts and you’ll be amongst their their ranks.” Or do you look at it and go “You know what you’re robbing us of the choice of the chance to see a Lightning in the Bottle player they’re still tour players so it’s how much is it really but you Robin is of the chance to see that player that we didn’t expect to do as well as they have so what’s the what’s the voting coming back right now Dom 71% of you are saying that Keegan Bradley should play on his own team 29% are saying it’s a stupid idea you’re all a bunch of idiots that’s what they’re saying so how did you phrase it i fra uh the phrase I’m just curious if you really said he do it play on his own RDER Cup team okay yes or no you don’t like the phrasing of my question i’m asking what it was yeah i want to see because sometimes you phrase it in a biased way the hell could I How could I You’d be like “Do you think that Keegan Bradley should be on his team in order for the US team to win or B do you think he shouldn’t be on his team and guaranteeing they lose?” I so so final thought again I don’t have an opinion I just think it’s interesting with this divide in your opinion is this an issue does this need to be addressed or this is just what it is and it’s it’s fine now I guess I guess what I’m struggling with is and this is probably a lot bigger than just golf but how and why do people the pundits I guess you put it that way where do they come up with with this group consensus from that that you know apparently with with pointed fingers we’re all supposed to adopt because it was handed out down from on high that this is somehow a bad idea why because I haven’t heard a really strong argument yet i’ve heard people say “Well 2025 is isn’t 1963.” Okay he’s also got a cadre of of vice captains to to help along the way you’ve got an organization behind it if something is too burdensome in terms of time or occupation have one of your other people do it hand off a lot of it hand off nearly all of it someone said the other day “Well what about the point system where do you stand on that?” I think I it comes down to the um the bigger question of signature events i don’t like that signature events don’t have a cut i think the signature event should be broader in open i think that to to limit a signature event because you want to ensure that the stars are hanging around the stars will always be towards the top of the leaderboard they may not be the stars that you want but the big names are big names because of their performance save for a few that get every sponsors exemption like Ricky who’s not playing that well but he’s very popular but I thought this wasn’t about just popularity so yes there there’s they need to figure that out there needs to be a better balance between those two but then you then you need to have a reason that a signature event is a signature event if you make the other events the same as a signature event or close it doesn’t hold that same distinction for aspiration so it’s not an easy answer but as far as the signature events go I can tell you I agree with Trip i don’t like that they’re non-cut i don’t think that’s keeping in the spirit of how the PGA Tour structured their events not the least of which was that’s the very thing that they complained about one of the very things they complain about with live scoffing that it’s that it’s a no- cut event your signature events are no cut events well I think it all comes down to TV Matt they’re trying to maximize eyeballs on the end product for golf and can you argue with it when they’re up by 35% this past weekend no but I think that as a sport we are overestimating our superstars i think to the general sports public the list of superstars is on one hand and the ratings will spike when one of those five does something spectacular or will the ratings spike because it is a compelling story no I don’t agree with that i don’t I don’t think that that’s true i think if you have two people that are 85th and 97th in the standings battling down the stretch of a tournament I don’t think that that’s not going to get eyeballs that’s why I asked you those names it’s got to be one of the five people so if you picked one of those two people of the list that you gave me it still wouldn’t cause a 35% spike even if the even if they’re trading you know haymakers down the stretch wait you lost me say that again you’re saying if one of the two people is the five people no the the 80 to 100 list or whatever you picked from if you picked two of those guys and replaced Tommy Fleetwood and Keegan Bradley this past weekend everything else remains the exact same the performance all the rest would we still get a spike in in viewership this is a terrible answer but the answer is uh no we wouldn’t