Dennis Sales on what he really thinks of force plates in coaching and is he really anti-science?

Episode #177
Dennis Sales – Is he really anti-science? Why challenging conventional thought is a good thing, and What does he really think of force plates?

Dennis Sales (IG: @dennissalesgolf , X: @DennisSalesGolf, FB: @dennissalesgolf ) is the owner of Dennis Sales Golf in Dallas/Fort Worth, Texas and is widely regarded as one of the top golf instructors in the nation. He is recognized for his innovative training methods, understanding of key fundamentals, and the ability to help golfers of all skill levels. Dennis has a deep passion for coaching that stems from an athletic background where he played both soccer and hockey at very high levels while developing a deep understanding of how to build athletic skills. Using that experience he integrates 3D technology and MEGSA Perfect Practice Equipment to create an amazing learning environment for anyone looking to improve. He continually advances his coaching expertise by participating in workshops, seminars, and certification programs around the country and has learned from some of the game’s best – Andy Plummer, Cheryl Anderson & Mike Bender, and Mark Sweeney.

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the goal is about the golfer right it’s about helping them it’s about trying to get what I would just say is real information versus some of that influencer kind of gibberish nonsense that I never see in gears right um you know I feel like I’m very smart and I think the the next piece to kind of keep pushing that kind of envelope is to to squash the nonsense well you don’t have force plates kind of sort of do right um I’ll squash that bug real quick right cuz then I will have them now what are you going to say i know how to move why don’t you show me your swing why don’t you do what I can do right uh and then we can have a real conversation but since you can’t maybe you should listen a little bit more cuz not only can I do it lefty I can do it righty so I think that has a lot of merit to what I teach right again because if you can’t show it can you really do it or can you know is it really right but so I can do anything I want change swings instantaneously righty lefty i can create speed not speed i think how to create speed is a lot different than what people are kind of teaching and and I quite don’t agree with some of the stuff that they’re teaching in terms of the speed pieces i think they’re missing some important keys and then like I said I need some ground force data stuff to kind of kind of push back against some of the stuff well how do you know cuz you don’t have any ground force plates now I’m going to push back and then I’m going to push back because I’m also not buying the stupid cheap ones so then I’m going to be like “Oh so you have the cheap ones that missing a lot of information and you’re giving me [ __ ] no talking to you.” Okay you know cuz I don’t I don’t buy anything it’s got to be really [Music] good let’s see and uh yeah the timer is counting so I am live with Dennis Sales at Dennis Sales Golf dennis it’s a pleasure to have you on i’ve been following you for some time you got some great information i think we’re going to have a great discussion today and people are going to learn a hell of a lot so thanks for coming on thanks for uh for reaching out and having me you know um the the first thing I want to get into is you you have a very impressive um sporting career i guess that’s the term I’ll use you from what I remember learning about you you you played played soccer at a very high level play professionally played hockey I believe at a division one level if not no no I didn’t i had a opportunity to go to college to play hockey as well but I I chose to follow dad’s footsteps and and play soccer instead and that was the other thing your your dad played professionally so you you have genetically you have uh you’re gifted to say the least i wouldn’t say that uh I wasn’t born with it like I worked really hard at it yes and I want to talk about that a little later okay um but and the reason I think that’s important is because some people will say well you know you don’t have to be a great player to be a great teacher uh and I say no you don’t but it it can help like I always tell people you don’t have to be a great uh you don’t have an oncology surgeon that’s great like a Patrick Walsh up at Hopkins did not have to have cancer in order to be a great surgeon but I if if an individual was a very good athlete and realize the work put into it and what’s going through somebody’s mind while they’re walking up this mountain then it helps it and it can help quite a bit you know so I think it’s just another way to utilize things but you you have a uh and then you you segueed into golf i think that’s important to understand for a number of reasons because you do a fair amount of work with juniors if I’m not mistaken you have a lot of success with juniors and and you you’re soccer hockey golf you it spans a wide range of things and in today’s world you know we have the helicopter parents that know my junior Yes junior assist is going to play golf uh from the time they’re nine and that’s it so how do you I want to jump into the juniors a little bit because parents are listening and you know people have kids are going to listen what what how do you work around that because some of these parents can be so hellbent on what they think versus what you know and they’re bringing them to you as the expert how do you work with with with someone like that given your history and your knowledge you’re very well educated on a lot of different things it’s it’s an education that everybody needs right not not only the player but also the parents on on kind of what’s required and then you can start and I’ll show them some data and stuff like that information about LTAD and the importance of being a very well-rounded athlete um to having some explosiveness some some coordination head and eye coordination right those things are really important at a really young age to develop right um I got a 9-year-old I got a 5-year-old they play a little golf but a lot of times in here like we’re more focusing on the stuff that I grew up with and I think a lot of you know I’m getting old right i’m now 50 back when I was growing up my first organized soccer league I think it was like 13 13 14 right now they’re they’re they’re starting this organization stuff at 6 seven and then they want you to play year round you know back then we didn’t have anything like that so whatever was in season is what you played right so I come from the Northeast so in the winter there’s no soccer we didn’t have indoor soccer back then so I was like “Okay I got to do something.” You know Boston Bruins my uncle’s a big fan of them and parents were a big fan of them so let’s go play hockey in the winter and then when the summer came around it’s like “Okay I’ve got to go play something.” Like dad played soccer i want to be like dad and like I have a a younger brother but he is 5 years younger than me by the time he got to that age my dad was kind of past his prime already so he didn’t get to experience what I got to experience with him in terms of going to the club and then seeing them win championships right seeing what you know the fans of the club would would would shower my dad with right as a professional and playing I’m Portuguese right so you know European soccer and stuff like that like I got to see that so I would go to the club with my dad to go practice and we’d be sitting at the bar and I got to see things like that was like oh [ __ ] like I want that i want that i want that kind of notoriety like that’s what I want so that’s what really started my drive in in that sense and then my dad would be like “Hey go look at Shelene go look at Louise right?” And I’d be like “Oh shit.” Like they get the same stuff he’s like “Yeah.” So a lot of times they go they would go eat and then we would order and then somebody would offer to pay the bill and then you know I learned a lot of you know having respect and not taking advantage of people and my dad would make me go there and go say thank you right yeah for very big very important so so so we did that and it was always like you know your dad does a lot for the club a lot of respect don’t you ever ruin it right um so like I got things like during soccer games I’d go to the bar somebody would see me they would go cut the line and they’re like “Okay what do you want i want water.” And then they just give it to me and somebody would buy it for me and then like I had to go say hello thank you and I’m like how do I get around like nine people to the front of the bar and the guy’s like “I just walk through the bar.” So I go through the bar and I say “Thank you.” I shake his hand and then I leave and my friends are like “I’ll do that.” They’re like “Go get me one.” I’m like “Oh hell no man my dad kicked my ass no thank you.” Dad says not to abuse it i just won water i’ll give you some wine but that’s about it but it was a lot of respect and and understanding that you know people rewarded you it’s like what you see with professional athletes now and my brother never got to see that so that’s what I wanted i I wanted that cuz whenever we would go to those you know Portuguese feasts and I’d be there with my dad people never knew me never knew my name i was always Adult Junior right so it was my dad’s name Junior or Little Adult that used to drive me nuts you know when I was still 23 I was still freaking little adult to everybody at that club right um but I had carved up my own niche but I was still never Dennis that was the only thing that got me but I was quite okay with it because my dad did a lot for that club did a lot for me right establishing you know some of those baselines in in in soccer uh those opportunities in soccer cuz a lot of those guys that were here had played out in Portugal and Spain and stuff like that that were coming here and like I would be at the club all the time and you know I had practices cuz my dad said I’d be sitting at the steps by the time he got home from work and I had my bag i had my soccer shoes on already and then if he saw you can’t come to practice today he said I I would cry and run to the bedroom so like that’s what I wanted i wanted that 24/7 right um but when I would go to practice with the guys like the guys would just show me stuff right and this is one of the things that I think is wrong in the golf industry right they would show me the move or I would ask them “Hey I saw you do that the other day can you teach me this and then they would show me the whole thing and then they would break it down you got to do this and then I you know me like okay well what about this part like yeah but you screwed up this pop first you got to do this first yeah what about this i’ll teach you that after you do this okay so I’d have to show them the first steps of the move before I got anything else right and then as they were all running like sometimes I would run with them other times I’d sit the side the coach would give me some soccer balls and I’d be doing stuff and they’d all be like “Look at him he’s still over there.” And I’d be trying this guy’s move and then I’d go to this guy’s move but I like I never tried to do the whole thing because after a little while I learned they’re not showing me the rest of it until I did something right and then they’d keep compounding the move then they would show me more and more stuff so when I got into golf when I was 23 24 I had to stop playing soccer cuz I was diagnosed with a Michael V prolapse um so I was like okay well then at that time you know I was playing professional I was playing against like John Hawks Lexi Law Tony Mola guys on the World Cup team following year I had a chance for a try out for the Revolution and and a had a player come out uh Ibu from France he’s like hey man I want you to go go to France you can go play over there no problem right but that was when I was already diagnosed and like a little of me was just like you know something man like maybe I should just go just so I can try to see if I could have played there and then if I get in just say I can’t do it right but I was already not in prime shape so I was like man that just I don’t think I can do it like that um because I already had slowed down my training aspect of the fitness piece so I was like no no forget that stuff right but when I got into golf like I said when I was like 23 it was just never expected to be where I am now it was always about when we were running some of the guys were playing and the the crazy stuff that they were doing like made everybody laugh and they’re like “Dennis you do nothing all day why don’t you come with us?” I’m like “Man I ain’t playing golf golf’s stupid.” Like “No way.” And those guys still give me a bunch of crap right about that stuff um but I got hooked it was fun and then it didn’t make sense cuz then they were trying to help me i was like “You guys stink.” No yeah oh just keep your head down just just swing it and I said “Dude I can’t hit the ganty ball.” Like and then I’m like “Well like I didn’t learn soccer that way.” Like same thing with some of my hockey coaches like you had to you know back then you’re more standup goalie versus the butterfly stuff we used to practice all day long trying to toe kick the the puck out of the rink and we would sit there for like a half hour doing it until we could do it so it was always like you had to learn something before you got something else so it’s just like that don’t make any sense to me doing what you guys are saying i’m going to do it my way and then I would just sit there and make small swings right trying to get the ball to go 50 yards trying to hit the same trajectory right trying to land in the same spot until I could do it my thought process was always like take the bucket balls walk out there if I dropped it not going to be that small but like threw it up in a year i want the dispersion to be pretty small because that makes sense to me and then from there I’d make it longer and walk down the fairway more so that’s I used to do that stuff all the time so I used to break it down into pieces before going at it full right um so that’s where I think in in in teaching I think a lot of coaches don’t take command of that right it it you got to focus what I would say is establishing the concept in people’s heads you got to explain to them the model from there you have to build the model out but you’d have to start someplace so you’d have to control the bottom half of the arc first and and if you can’t do that you can’t hit the ball solid you can’t produce consistent data points you can’t produce a good motion on video can’t hit the ball to proper trajectories and and get the landing descent and the landing spot tight what’s the point of hitting a 100 yard shot or 150 yard shot right it makes no sense and then I always use the analogy of and a lot of it is is because golf’s not dangerous right because you ever see those guys with the Red Bull where they jump off the clips yeah red Bull’s got the best Instagram page it’s crazy so like I always explain it in such a way as like okay so you come to me you see that you want me to teach you how to do those flips and stuff like that so you come to me I’m going to say hey see that door right there that door is going to take you 300 ft up i want you to do what you’re showing me and I’m going to record it and watch you go ahead hurry up like I had a father and son here yesterday and and I’m like you going to go up there and the kid’s like hell no i go why not he goes “I might hurt myself.” I go “Dad would you let him go up there if I was told him to go up there?” He goes “Oh hell no he might kill himself.” I go “So then why is anybody trying to teach you driving and talking about PGA Tour driver speeds when you have so many other issues in your swing?” He looks at me and he goes “Oh good freaking point.” So they bypass the things that you need cuz nobody’s patient enough anymore right they want instant gratification they want to do whatever they want to do but it’s like it’s not what you want to do it’s what you need good because I don’t give you what you want i give you what you need because most golfers when they go practice ain’t doing what they need they want to do what they want because they want to have more fun but I’m always like I remember playing pro soccer practice sucked playing and winning was fun you guys want to go have practice and have fun like a lot of the camps and programs right oh you want to go have fun you’re running around you’re doing all sorts of stuff you’re having a grand old time problem is you’re not developing any kind of skill and you’re not improving your technique and to me you got people saying skill trumps technique it’s like are you on drugs your your technique sets the ceiling for your skill and if you don’t improve your technique you can’t improve your skill right and there would be certain anatomical relationships that we would want at impact where vast majority of of golfers with their with their lead wrist right so that’d be dorsif flexion that’s palmer flexion at impact they’re in dorsif flexion show me one you know with the handle back i mean one really good tour player that’s got crazy amount of dorsif flexion with the handle back behind the golf ball so that’s technique so their skill of low point and face to pad stuff is going to suffer so if you don’t change the technique how do you improve the skill so to me it it’s about understanding and explaining to them what people need not what they want you give them what they need and you’ll get them to places that they want to get to right you don’t go to the a doctor and the doctor tells you “Hey take this pill i’m not taking it.” Right you you you trust somebody so everybody has a choice in terms of like who you want to take lessons and coaching from but you have to have buy in if there’s no buy in and then there’s not going to be any progress and the same thing like we talked about that student earlier when I stopped the assessment and we need to have a conversation i’m going to tell you what we need to do and then you’re going to have a choice you can either can go back and do the same thing that you’ve been doing or we have to go down a different pathway that’s not my choice that’s your choice i go but I’m going to show you what you need to do versus maybe what you want or what he’s been telling you for the last 5 months and obviously you can see that it’s nothing like where really good golfers are and the stuff that he’s telling you to do is got nothing to do with your priorities my friend that’s all I’m saying and then you know I had a sit down and I kind of explained everything to him and I’m like you have to make a choice now like here’s your information you can take it back to the other guy if you like that’s up to you but you have to make a decision on what you’re going to do but if you’re going to go back to the guy I promise you my friend like you better tell him to stop working on these keys or else it’s impossible for you to to fix anything you had mentioned um or I had mentioned DNA you know your dad was a very good professional athlete and that that that you are were I didn’t mean it to mean that you had a guaranteed line to to professional sports but I you know as far as certain sport like you know uh uh David Epstein’s Range and and The Sports Gene I thought were exceptional books uh if anybody’s read those they know what I’m talking about but uh one thing I want that that drives me absolutely crazy is when announcers on TV or whoever on online social media whatever say that that somebody is uh ridiculously talented and I said “No that that that is basic to to me.” And I know this is a harsh way to explain it but just to kind of paint a picture for the listeners saying that someone is is merely talented and why they won is a big disrespect to the hard work that they put in yeah and and whether it’s Rory Mroy or Tiger or Scotty Sheffller you know and these those guys have been playing golf since they were four five six years old may maybe you know Tiger obviously from the time you could stand you you put in a hell of a lot of time and effort blood sweat tears etc to become great at first you know soccer and hockey and then when you pivoted to golf you uh and playing and teaching because I believe you you played professionally or local stuff yeah yeah um so do do you view it somewhat similar uh coming from your background and that’s why I want to start with you know your sporting background at a high level that that you you have a better understanding of the work it takes and when somebody says well they won surely because of talent it’s like I I said I’ve argued this online unfortunately on X what some people will say well tell me what talent is because if it if you we can agree that it’s a it’s a physical predisposition to be good at a certain sport like if you’re 7 foot tall your odds of playing basketball at a very high level are going to be astronomical versus if you’re 5’4 genetics so components like because I’m never going to play in the NBA i’m never going to go and play in the the NFL but I was an unbelievably good athlete like in high school the football coach wanted me to play cuz I was fast i had great hand i had coordination i’m like nope so you’re you’re interfering with soccer not interested uh I played travel baseball when I was young i played basketball right but again like it’s kind of what we talked about earlier like back then we had nothing up until 13 so you played everything there was no early specialization so you learn other sports and other sports skills right that that help you become a very well-rounded athlete which it becomes a an asset later when you start to want to focus and specialize golf is a late specialization sport not an early one gymnastics early figure skating early right so you got to understand the sport and what you’re trying to play and understanding what the end goal is right the end goal in golf for the most part is more when you start to kind of get into that 15 age right because that’s when it golf really starts to matter you have to have certain pieces established right by the time you kind of get to there so that you can start to play higher level junior golf so that you can start to get rankings especially if you want to go play you know college golf or potentially gain some sort of scholarship into the mix there are certain numbers that you need I had one kid really good golfer like he is I can’t say too much because then I’ll expose it who it is because it’s pretty simple to see once I say it he lost the opportunity to go to D1 college program because he didn’t have 175 mph ball speed probably one of the best kids in the state of Texas flat out can freaking play but he didn’t have a certain number i think that’s kind of crazy but again I kind of understand the coach like well we’re playing longer golf courses right he’s going to be at a disadvantage but you understand like he’s already playing against all those other kids at the same junior state you know you you you adapt to what which what you have right and then you know maybe you go and try to get him a little bigger faster stronger but if you’re just going to look at that piece like I think he would have been a great asset to the program and then where he’s going he will be a great asset to the program right um but again like you know it it could affect him and I would say it probably would affect him if he’s going to try to continue to advance and play professional golf cuz like man you’re at a real disadvantage when you stop playing at that level right because you’re just not far enough but you’re giving up a lot of distance a lot of ball speed a lot of distance to players who can actually flat out hit it just as well as you can right yeah but if he’s only 16 17 years old and he hasn’t even gotten to his fill out age yet my thoughts and if he’s got the fundamentals of how to compete which is the most important and how many times I mean I I played basketball a lot growing up and I got burned out i did not want to play in college anymore two two three-hour practices six days a week i had enough in high school um but you I obviously followed basketball quite a bit and you know you look at the Scotty Pitman’s where he grew I think six inches his sophomore year of college and now now he’s got this he’s got the skill of a guard but now he’s got the size of a that nobody can compete with him or he just so the kid I I don’t understand I think to your point on one of your recent posts where you said it’s not so much about the stats it’s more about skill or something to that effect i might have a little wrong but people I highly recommend people go to your Instagram and social media and follow you uh you’ll see what some good stuff Dennis post but a a kid like that that they’re completely negating the individual and they’re going only to the metrics which I think is a shining example of what you were trying to say or to a large part in that in that post and I couldn’t agree with you more it’s like you know you look at any business and we’ve had some Fortune50 CEOs on this show it’s like you know you hire the person you can teach you can train them to to the skill to do the job that you need to marketing engineering whatever they have to have some background in but you can train them but hire the individual are they do they show up on time are they good people to have around are they or are they anchors to to to the business or their department or their group you what what kind of person are they going to contribute all these things factor and if that kid’s got all the pieces in place to where he’s become the top junior one of the top in the state of Texas which is one hell of a golfing Okay the fact that that he’s 16 17 year old doesn’t have 175 ball speed that that’s going to come or if he’s going to get close to it I would have to assume as he fills out but he he’s got the intangibles already it’s like he’s got the hard part why are you only wanting to get kids that have the easy part and then sit there and scratch your head well why didn’t we get through regionals i don’t know maybe because you got guys hitting it 320 but they don’t know where it’s going yeah and again like everybody has a choice it’s kind of what we talked about earlier right coach had a choice you could take him or you can’t you have what he has right now right you got to make that decision and he’s got time to still to develop right um but again like we all have choices in the matter right uh coaches players right where do you put your kid you know college and stuff like that and again like I if somebody has that kind of mentality then you’re not going to change it and then is that really where you’d want one of your players to go anyways and I would say no you want to see the potential that it’s going to come out of the kid and what do you have right now and then how can you further nurture it so as far as I’m concerned right that’s where you kind of get into you’re assessing everything right even when you know you’re talking to my players about schools and things like that all I do is ask questions to them like did you ask about this did you ask about that right they have to make that decision it’s got it’s not my decision right where somebody would go tell you that’s kind of a lie because this year I did it to somebody i’m like “You’re not going there i’m not letting you.” They’re like “What i’m not letting you you’re not even going to go there for a visit.” And they’re like “What?” I’m like “No I won’t let you.” I go “Cuz I’ve had a player with that coach i’m not doing it again you’re not going.” And they’re like “Really?” I never lied i’ve never lied to you you know took you down the wrong road i go I cannot in good conscious allow you to go there yeah it’s not a good student there’s just I I cannot allow that to happen i go the answer is no find some other place and then you know we end up finding another place you AJ High she had plenty of schools inquiring and asking questions i’m like another one’s going to come along don’t worry about it right and you know of course you know she found a place that she really likes um good but there’s just you know certain things that you you learn from being in the industry and I’m you know fortunate to have you know the the ability to kind of work with players in the past that were really good you hear stories about that stuff you you have an opportunity to kind of rub shoulders with with certain coaches and and ask questions right so you get to learn things about coaches and what they’re looking for um you know those are all experiences that help me guide my players because not every one of my players wants to have a full D1 college scholarship or play D1 some people just want to make JV other people just want to play varsity some people just want to go play D3 some people want to go you know they have their own thing but the plan has to be specific to getting them to where they would want to go and in that selection for the coach just in my opinion um you need to find a coach who’s who’s been down that road a and who who’s helped people get to those stages and then that’s going to help you build out a plan right very fortunate i I’ve kind of had two girls inside the top 20 in AJ one played in the the junior Soulheim Cup team in Germany i’ve had three inside the top 75 five inside the top 125 i’ve had like six state champions here in in Texas five that I’ve helped as a consultant to somebody in Michigan where they won five there i helped him build like a you know $ 1.5 million indoor facility right um I’ve got state amateur champions uh US four ball champion it’s I I’ve kind of been around it enough right i I’ve seen it i’ve seen what they’ve done how much work they’ve had to put in it how much work I had to put in to get to the levels that I got to and then having a really late start in golf and then what I needed to do to catch up right i don’t think without those experiences I don’t think I’d be who I was today cuz I wouldn’t know enough right to understand what to prioritize right and what to chase first um so I think life experiences do help right and I’m not saying that those life experiences because you were a great player is going to make you a great coach or anything along that nature um but I think the the life experiences and rubbing shoulders with with certain people and having conversations with them certainly does help right yes what I’ve done i mean you look at Butch Harmon the X’s and O’s and uh some people in today’s world with the technology might disagree with Butch’s X’s and no meaning the mechanics of the swing and how he teaches it or what he’s going to prescribe to somebody but I I think Butch’s superpower is his ability to to to work with the individual to get them to play their best uh given how maybe they’re playing at that point in time and and I I I didn’t notice this until really when he was working with Phil Mickelson and whether Phil was doing what he wanted to or not you know I think at the players the year that Phil won the players where he hit that shot on 16 through the trees but you know at at that players would say you know Phil’s been working really hard i’ve never seen it Phil hit the ball any better you know if if your coach is getting on national television and saying the same at that level all it can take is that one little half percent of confidence to say well to remove that doubt in your mind and as you know as you play at a very high level the the the biggest thing that you can do to throw off a tour pro is give them one ounce of doubt i think that you know the first cut at Augusta just they’re not sure how the ball’s going to react is it going to hit and release a little bit and and you know those greens you need such finite control but I think that’s Butch’s superpower is working with the person obviously he’s great you can argue his technique all you want to but he’s obviously very good at that but growing up around his dad who was a master champion a phenomenal coach Ben Hogan Dave Maher you know he was around that so to Butch it’s like okay this is what I’ve done my whole life but but to to your point I you know it is how do you develop the skill how do you develop the person uh not just so much well do this in your swing or get more or get more flexed or XYZ uh I think that in golf in general I think that you and I are on the exact same page on that that so much of the industry misses that key component and then they sit there and wonder well this kid’s working his ass off he’s hitting balls three hours a day why can’t he break 75 that’s great it’s more than just to golf than just a swing yes but it’s decision- making it It’s the mindset it it it’s understanding the lie it’s adaptation right we’re humans it’s problem solving my my my hands my feels my body is changing you know on a daily basis slightly so I have to figure out what I’m doing on the range and then I have to go apply it to the golf course and then from there got the wind on this hole coming from the right it’s a bit above my feet you know and now on the next hole it might be coming from behind the ball’s a little bit below my feet i have to adjust these pieces and understand those pieces and then a lot of it is also you know where they are mentally at at at that point in time in frame is their head spinning with all sorts of information right or can they simplify those concepts to then be able to just kind of get into the zone right mental game is a a huge piece and I was fortunate to be uh where I was at different points in my career um being able to spend some time with Dr rick Jensen he kind of opened my eyes a little bit to that stuff so I went through one of his training programs early on and then I also spent some time learning golf psych which was kind of eye opening because I always thought the psychology piece had to come from real sports psychologist but the way Dr the Deb Graham has that thing laid out it’s It’s pretty simplistic to be able to start to help players at a very basic level and that there Yes there have been players that I’ve had take that assessment and then I’ve looked at their report and they’re like “You’re above my pay grade but you got to go see them right?” And then other people it’s very simplistic because of the report and what you’re supposed to do cuz they they do a great job laying it out for you they do a great job in training you how to be able to execute it but they also do a great job in teaching you to say when you see certain components of traits you can’t help them and I’m not you know smart enough in that sense and I at the same time smart enough to understand like I ain’t touching that now you got to go see them right um so that they can go because they’re the ones you know she clinical sports psychiatrist help me right people with those when you took those classes and you have I almost want to call you Dr dennis with all the certifications you have you know Gears Trackman Sam Putt Lab the I think I want to say it right the the MEGA training aid is that right um and and a whole host of others but for for some of the younger pros out there and the golf industry is not you don’t make a lot of money uh at all but you make a lot less money when you’re coming up through the ranks for for for someone who’s an assistant either they’re in the pro shop and they want to become a coach or teacher or they’re a entry- level instructor at a at a school or facility and they don’t have much money what is your advice to them on learn taking classes like like Rick Jensen’s and Dr programs or whoever whoever they’re following and they want to go learn more because it’s only going to improve their skill as a coach or teacher but but they they’re sitting there looking at their bills and they’re sitting there looking at the cost of some of these things which are getting quite steep for the really good people how did you balance that uh that someone can learn from and say “Well geez you know Dennis Dennis did this and I’m going to follow Dennis path i’m going to take this class and I’m going to improve and it’s going to bring eventually it’s going to give me more skill and I’m going to teach more people and make more money.” But when you’re at that early level it’s hard to make that jump you’re very scared you’re not sure what to do and you know that if you make a mistake in your decision you know you’re not going to have any extra income for maybe a month or two yeah um I would say that everybody would have to go and take a long hard look in the mirror to figure out what they want right um you look at like I I value my friendship with Preston Holmes right all he does is putting um you look at like a James Ridyard he teaches some full swing but he’s very well known for the short game stuff i would say that I think there’s coaching i would say that there’s you could be you know a swing guru right and understand all of that for me I wanted to be at it all as much as I could be right i wanted to offer a training program that could be completely in-house and have all the vital pieces to improve performance so I needed to teach the mindset i needed to understand that enough i needed the the swing needed the short game I needed the putting I needed the mind um I needed some speed stuff right to get people to be faster so for me early on I was very fortunate and then I would credit Lauren Anderson from the proponent group yep have I’ve had Lauren on great guy right he helped me a tremendous amount back when I started at the private golf course and I was doing that more so to play cuz some of the guys like “Hey go join that private golf course you don’t get to pay to play and you get to play private golf course.” like “Oh okay i’ll do that.” And then playing with people and then you know starting to do some of that other stuff and then as I started to transition um into that and I almost left the business I’m like there’s way too many hours in the shop like forget about this stuff like I’m going to go back because I was a biomedical engineer am I going to go back to that stuff instead like couldn’t get back into the company that I was working for before I got into golf so I had to wait there was like “We’re not hiring right now Dennis but we want you to come back because we left on really good terms.” Mhm i was like “Okay.” So then I kind of stayed in the business a little bit more then I started to teach a little bit i’m like “Oh this is kind of fun right helping others right?” Cuz I always thought I’ I I would be where I am now but in soccer not golf so I’ve always kind of wanted that aspect and to help others like those guys my dad and his players helped me so I always wanted to give that back um just in the wrong sport but I was in the PGA then I was then I stopped doing it because I’m like I’m getting out i’m like forget it and then I was lucky enough to get into back then it was AMF and then I was in a proponent group you know I had a was talking to Lauren and he asked me some questions made me I knew what I wanted like I really wanted a range i wanted uh maybe a couple holes i mean that’s what I wanted and I wanted to have access to a golf course oh I have a building now so 3,000 ft² which I like cuz in Texas the heat and then the wind in the spring and fall like it’s not really great to go hit golf balls all day outside because the crosswinds so it’s like okay I got if I’m going to be here in Texas it’s got to be indoors so been teaching golf for for 20 years indoors because of the Northeast so I’m like I know what I need to do indoors what I would want what I need to help people build baseline so that’s how I built my place but Lauren was like “Okay Dennis is like if you’re going to kind of do the PGA thing like there should be the perks right?” And and like one of the perks was like you get to work at a private golf course because if you’re not a PGA it’s very hard to go and and work at a private golf course or a golf course in general he’s like “Do you want that?” I’m like “No like I just want my own place.” He goes “Okay well then you don’t really need to do that right?” So um and then we talked about a few other things and then it became “Okay so then this is what you need to do if this is what you want to do.” And so he helped me establish the plan early on about taking the money that I had because I was going to pay for the PGA he goes “You take that and then you apply it for um you know teaching specific classes.” So then I did the K vest i did the TPI stuff early on i did the golfing machine right and then that’s when I ended up meeting his wife at one of the golfing machine classes in Orlando which then that was really nice because that’s what got me going into the MEXA because I got to spend a lot of time at Bender’s Place Mike Bender’s Place early on in my career and you know they took me in like I would go there I’d spend three four weeks at a time and then come back home you know sitting there and just kind of just just watching because in the winter’s like you know you’re not teaching back home so I was like go down to Florida so I’d reach out hey can I come up a while like yeah sure fine so down there for like 3 4 weeks and then you know been with my wife since we were like 19 we didn’t get married till 30 but letting her she’s like okay yeah go ahead you have to go get out yeah so you know I’d leave for a month at a time and stuff um it’s a vacation for her too yeah so it was like it was Yeah i should probably say that um but it was nice in that I got insights into high level teaching high level players their junior academy i’m like “This is what I want to do.” Then I got into their Megzer because that’s who who kind of designed it and I called told them in the past i’m like “You guys are like horrible sales people are absolutely geniuses.” They’re like “Huh?” I go “Cuz you guys used to tell me like “Oh you need to buy one you need to buy one.” And they’re like “Yeah yeah whatever.” Like okay sounds like way too much like a sales pitch to me geniuses in that some lessons you know that the student wouldn’t want me to be there so they’re like “Hey Dennis let’s go hang out with the academy kids.” Okay off to the academy i went right and sold me on it the junior academy kids who were sold me on it it wasn’t them uh so I like to go talk to them like they got to like I knew all the kids on a first minute basis they knew me they I knew them like when I first got there they went “Oh how long are you going to be here this time for?” “He 3 weeks.” “Oh cool.” I’m like “Yeah pretty nice.” So then but like that that those first few weeks like there afterwards like you know why do you like the megza well you know I was so so trying to fix my swing i could never fix it i come here you know so now it was like I hit balls on the megar and then I go in the front and try to do it and I come back into the megar and I go back and forth and you know it’s been too much and I’ve changed it no and it was just like everybody I went to it was the same story i was someplace else I couldn’t do it i came here you know they tell me what to do they show me how to set it up i come out here i hit balls on this thing i go to the front of the mat there’s nothing there i hit balls there i come back so I go back and forth back and forth back and forth and um the story was the same and I’m just like “Oh shit.” That’s what I said like it was genius on their part right because you know they got me in front of the the kids so I have three megas i only have one megaphone now the other two are in my garage um I just don’t have the space for all three um but I I think those things are absolutely positively fantastic right because you hit balls in those things it provides instant feedback if you hit the thing so you can use it as positive and negative feedback and it’s not exercise most kids when they go to the range you know they they don’t use video they don’t use practice stations right so to me if you’re not going to do any of that stuff and you’re trying to change your swing and you’re hitting balls all you’re doing is exercising and you’re you’re further ingraining your bad habits so um so with me here at the academy kids come out and they practice with me like soccer practice I make them do the [ __ ] that they don’t want to do or they won’t do all the time well ju just like you you learn from from those soccer players on your dad’s team you you you’ve got you you can’t get to step three if you don’t have the foundation of step one and two no but but everybody wants to get to step three yeah everyone relates to golf cuz then you use the analogy of the rock diving like I ain’t going up there yet but yet in golf they’re okay because you’re not going to get hurt you’re not going to get physically hurt but I think psychologically you get hurt but then you start to create more and more doubt and then you come back in and we’re going to do something you look at video and you’re still doing the same crap like so it keeps taking a chip out of your self-esteem versus being able to see that you’re progressing to where you’re supposed to be right so that was my thing when I was first got into teaching right and and then kind of you know watching those guys at the club teach watch him teach remember I would go over there and then like two swings later they’re like doing the same crap again and I’m like “Hey he’s doing the same crap.” Well it’s on him he He’s got to do that and I’m just like “Moly Christ like I would never gotten good at sports like that.” No you know the one thing that drives me crazy about the golf industry is if some I if you’re coaching somebody and you give them a a solution to their problem we’ll call or an antidote to what’s ailing their golf game swing chip whatever and if it’s not working to some extent by the at the time your lesson’s over to some extent I mean depending how ingrained their bad patterning is anywhere from let’s say 10 to 30 pretty quick yes but some of these coaches that I see over the years that they that the people have been coming to them for months or years or etc and they’re like you just need to keep working at it it’s like at what point does the the individual say I’ve been working at I’ve been busting my hump dedicating as much time as I can whether it’s an hour a week 5 hours a week 20 hours a week and they’re not getting any better maybe the coach has to look in the mirror and say the antidote I gave them or the the fix I gave them is is not there’s something else there and telling them to work harder is not the solution i don’t agree and disagree to some extent i would say it would revolve around what are they doing in practice and how they’re structuring their practice so as an example if I give somebody so you’re in the MEXA I’ve given you a practice station mhm right if I have gotten to the root cause and I’ve given you a practice station if you use the practice station I know for a fact that you’ll get better because it’s instant feedback between right and wrong if you’re the golfer who takes the feedback and you do it here and then you go to the range and you don’t use the feedback station and you’re not videoing yourself and you’re not calibrating yourself they’re unraveling it’s not on the coach it’s on the player yes so that’s why I say I would disagree but now if the player is doing using their practice station diligently right they are videoing it and it’s not changing then the root cause is wrong then you have to adjust the root cause but a lot of times like I said like the problem with golf is feeling real i’ve never met a student that I’ve given a lesson to that went out there and purposely practiced the wrong way every single person believes they’re doing it the right way and that’s the problem right cuz again like if you think you’re doing it right why would you ever change like could you but if I go and I open up the video camera and I feel like I did it right and then my picture is so different then I know I haven’t changed anything so then I got to sit there and spend some time in calibration to fix those pieces and not worry about the ball flight so when I’m with my players like swing training is video based not Trackman or GC quad based change the picture is everything there are times in here where I’ll set the projector even even for the longest time uh I had no projectors even when I bought my projectors from a good friend of mine I had them at home for a year before I put them up i I called him like “Hey I got like what you told me to do can you tell me what to do again about setting them up?” He goes “What?” I go “Yeah.” He goes “You haven’t sent them up yet.” Or no “What the hell you been doing with them?” “Oh they’re sitting in my uh closet.” And he like “You’re serious?” I go “Yeah look.” I go “Where am I going to put them can you tell me again kind of like and he’s like “You’re serious?” I’m like “Dude he’s” He’s like “Why did you buy them?” I go “Because we talked i thought at some point I would.” And like you start doing really good projectors i bought them and he’s just like “You’re crazy.” I’m like “Sometime.” I go “But there’s there’s a point to everything that I do because then as soon as you use projectors for some people and they see the data it’s always about the data they lose sight of the ball.” Yes they hit a ball and they’re like “Yeah.” Yeah they they hit a ball like what what they what the numbers say so most of the people for me like the times where I’ll shut off the projector I turn the TV I swivel it to me so I can see what the ball is doing and all I let them see is you know the JC video cameras in in the TV and then the first few swings like what did the ball do i’m like I don’t care i’m not telling you did you do what you’re supposed to do what do you mean well I don’t know where the ball went i go we just talked about what you needed to do in the pitcher yeah let me let me back for you did you do what you were supposed to do he’s like “Well no I didn’t.” He goes “But I thought I did.” Okay but you did it he goes “No.” I go “So then who cares about the ball?” “Yeah well the ball the ball doesn’t do anything the ball’s just there messing with your head.” And you can you not change and then I do stuff with people like some of the kids get so mad at me because I can swing any way I want in terms of how I load the club and move and I’ve played sim golf with them like every hole I’ll switch how I’m going to swing it then I still beat them and it drives them nuts and I’m just like but see it’s like it’s a mindset piece i’m internalizing what I need to do and then I I I I’m putting it all together i’m layering feels and I still hit the same shot right or I hit functional shots because I know what the pattern is going to give me so then I just play the pattern i understand it right but I’m not worrying about the outcome because if I can’t control me I can’t control the outcome so if I want my swing on autopilot and hit my stock push through I don’t have to think a whole lot just go and swing it i’ve built it into me but if I want to change that pattern a little bit I have to have some internal cues to the equation so I have to for me I have to internalize some things and then I’m going to internalize those things then I’ll adjust the swing ever so slightly and then I get a different buffer um but that’s why like I didn’t use projectors and even sometimes in the lessons like I just I won’t use the the the ball data and then sometimes I put it up just to mess with people like so what what do you feel where the look at the ball look at I didn’t ask you about the ball i ain’t blind i see it’s right there remember we said the next 10 shots are going to be about what oh you got me i’m like yeah it’s a test because if you do it here you’re going to do it out there when you’re out there practicing by yourself or when you come here and you practice at my place by yourself right so it’s just a test to see where you are psychologically are you understanding where you’re supposed to be focused to or how you’re going to grade yourself on and if you can’t change that like I’m never going to change anything about what you do yeah if they’re not going in the direction that you want to cuz they’re getting sidetracked their direction focus is shift towards what the ball’s doing instead of the direction that you’ve set them on then they’re breaking that that chain and they’re not never going to get any better no so that’s why I said like I kind of disagree with you to some extent because it depends on on the player and how they’re using the feedback are they focused on on the priorities that okay hey I’m not not in performance practice performance practice would be hitting a ball towards target and I’m going to vary it then there’s block practice for the ball i have this so many shots at this flag and I got to go and change and then there’s swing practice and at the beginning of swing practice it’s not about the ball it should be about the swing and I might sell somebody hey put the stick out there the ball always has to start to the right i don’t care which way it curves there’s the pitcher we want the ball to start to the right when you start having the pitcher the right way if the ball’s going to the right then we’re good yes i start adding more and more details to the mix but the second they make that one swing look at the ball well then it’s like no it’s not supposed to no you just got an F yes i do agree that that that if the student is when they go off on their own they’re practicing and let’s just say they worked with a coach for 9 or 12 months and and they’re not following the protocol that the that the coach gave but then that is more on the student but also on the coach to I hate to use the word sell because you’re not trying to sell them on the idea you’re you’re trying to Yes you’re the accountability the coach has to hold accountability that that is that’s why they’re coming to the coach because that’s what that coach is is being paid to do and at the same time that’s where like we kind of talked about earlier about am I in terms of the advice for younger coaches do I want to be a swing guy and only a swing guy or do I want to be a performance guy which has to do everything if you’re going to be performance guy like I am then I have to do whatever I need some players like myself tell me what to do if I understand that I don’t need help it’s not everybody is like me right i think that a vast majority of coaches are trying to teach players like the elite level learners give me what I need to do show me how I need to practice it and I’ll do it on my own certain players don’t thrive that way cuz they don’t have the mindset to practice the right way so in those situations that’s where programming in my academy helps like I’m going to I have vast majority of my programming is all tailored to the individual does the player need more support to learn what they’re doing because they’re not a good practicer then they have to come here and practice with me i’ve got to teach you how to practice and what you’re looking for to keep you on the task because your mindset of what you’ve already learned is prohibiting you from learning and advancing what you need to do so then I need to give you more i need to be more than just a the the the technical swing guy i can teach you how to practice right so that’s where you know young coaches listening to this like what do you want to be right i I don’t think that just being a swing guy is bad right but you got to have if you want to be very successful and if you’re going to open up an academy or or or some sort of teaching facility well you you better have other pieces in place to help teach those players whatever they need so you would need to find somebody who’s good at coaching coaching to me is teaching people how to take their ball flight and put the damn thing in the hole swing to me is a technical aspect that’s just me instruction so there’s different levels of what you’re trying to do if you’re just going to focus on one piece like you need more around you or you’re going to get you’re going to need to get lucky to have the right people around you you need people like me going to you cuz all I need is just guidance and I’m going to I’ll do the rest right um but like I said I think a vast majority of people are are learning the game incorrectly right they do not have the capacity of doing it on their own they need more support and kind of like what we talked about earlier you know people coming into the the space and and and you know tricking golfers into believing like you need the data is snake oil salesman right you don’t need data you need Brian Do you know Brian Gath right he’s he’s a teacher coach in Texas he he ran the Penn schools for many many years and I I don’t know where I I think he’s in the San Antonio area well it was not a gays coach when not was still playing on the tour but to to your point about technology he he told the story when he came on the show that when video was coming out in the 80s or making this big push and becoming more popular that um he asked Harvey Panick one day after one of their schools or one of the lessons or wherever they were he said “What do you think of this video?” And he said ‘Well it it’s going to be a hell of a lot better for us than it is the student because we get to now see all these things that we can stop and all these now the student’s going to have a lot of wow factor they’re going to want to see it because back in the 70s we didn’t have video it really didn’t come out until the 80s but he said it’s going to be a bigger thing for the coaches to oo and a over and look at stuff than it was then so yeah um utilizing technology but the the learning the skill development as you say as as opposed to just data is very very important i think and we’re in a data era the tech era is so much data driven i think we’re coming out of it to some extent uh last 15 years or so has been very strong data driven um but I think we’re now understanding okay we have all these piles and mountains and mountains of information how do we formulate this data now to to performance i I I I see it slowly you know it’s a very big ship and it’s hard to you to make a change in in a navigation pattern takes a long time for the something that big to to move but I I at least I see some of the undercurrents of that thing starting to move people like yourself and others and again mentors are big i’ve got some really good mentors like if I have a question like I I I know where to go if I have a question on the different aspects of of things so I’ve built a a really good network around meh of people who I trust who I would have no issues with you know sending players to um asking for advice on players swings or different aspect of their swings which is always a a really nice perk into the equation but we got to understand that golf itself is more than just having a really good golf swing no doubt about it it it it it’s understanding the because I I I talk about this a lot with my students like you know what’s the purpose of golf i ask people that all the time what’s the purpose of golf what’s the sole purpose of golf oh uh what do you mean what’s the sole purpose of golf it’s pretty simple right uh oh to have a good swing define a good swing just my swing like to find a good swing look at Matthew Wolf look at Jim Fury tiger Woods right kelvin Pet you start rambling off these names all good swings yeah right so it’s like you know so to find a good swing like people just don’t know what they’re really supposed to do they have no idea and it’s too general right whole purpose of golf get the ball in the hole and least amount of shots right and then from there I’ll ask him okay so to do that there’d be some fundamentals we have to do what are the fundamentals oh I need a good grip stance posture alignment and I’m like oh you ever watch Le Vino play golf oh yeah where does he aim he aims like way to the left i don’t know how many aim to the right jim Furick right so look at Paul Ainger’s wrist they’re all different i go so how is that a fundamental if they’re all doing all those things different well you got to hold the club yeah no kidding you know but I do have to hold the club but there’s a lot of different ways to hold the club right so things would be the the orientation of the anatomy from the wrist angle to the snuff box to the radial ular to the humorous bone where the shaft is pointing how the trail arm is set up where the pelvis is set up upper rotation all those things matter right so to me those things are all variables in the grand scheme of things so how can you have a a fundamental such as that that is clearly very different amongst people in the PJ tour and right now in the Hall of Fame right so that that to me is a problem to me you look at the people in the Hall of Fame you know how do they get there how do you how do you get the ball in the hole in the least amount of shots well I got to hit the dang thing solid you got to you know how far I’m going and then generally speaking the ball’s curving then you know most amateurs want to hit the ball straight and then tour players curve it you got to know you have to know what you’re doing it has to be consistent that you can plan you to fade draw whatever then from there you can start to build okay what do you want to do you want to fade it or you want to draw it oh I want to draw it well how much draw do you want what do you mean i go I got players who have a lot of draw i got players who have different draws but the way I configure this setup is is designed to match the shot outcome so what do you want uh little draw i go so you want a little draw you’re going to have very little face to path deviation you better practice a lot how much you going to practice only going to practice a couple days a week well it’s going to be really hard to match up that face the path in my opinion how about we have a little bit more bias to the curve what do you mean how about we move the ball a little bit more back to get the path out a little bit more hit the ball a little bit earlier in the arc give us a little bigger curve with a little longer clubs and I’ll teach you how to adjust it for the smaller clubs that hit a little less curve because inherently because of lying the face angles it’s going to want to curve a little less okay let’s do that you sure okay cuz if I build a house cuz I tell them like I’ve got to build a house right right when you look at a house and you want to build a house if we just bought a piece of land we’re not going to sit there and start you know digging holes all over the place right we would need to know what the house needs to look like the function of the house is all the same house all look different but there ain’t going to be no house builder that’s going to build a house that’s not to code right there are certain things that have to be up to code and it’s the same thing in the golf swing when you’re building something things have to be up the code because again you don’t want to create anything in a golf swing that is going to put unduly stress on joints right so you got to create longevity to the equation so it’s got to be a safe golf swing you know keys to biomechanics from there like as we start building the house you know we want we we measure everything out we put some lines on there cuz I watch them build my house and the house is in my community right they’re going in there groups going in they’re marketing other guys building trenches then they’re laying different cuts in there and then they’re laying the pipe work then they’re laying the cement then they’re doing the the first layer of the the 2x4s and all that other stuff then they start adding adding adding adding but they already know what the house needs to be built like and what it’s going to look like right if you decided right that I’m halfway through your house and I want to add something else it’s going to cost you a lot more money and I might have to take even longer to change because I got to go and change the whole schematics yes especially talking about changing some of the size of the rooms and I already have all the 2x4s laid out like but yeah we can do that it’s going to cost you x amount of time it’s going to delay the house another 5 months cuz I got to knock all that [ __ ] down yes so I try to establish what we need to do at the beginning so that that we’re not changing things it’s like building a house and that’s how I explain it to them we need to do this this is what we built it’s going to take us a while to do this right just like it would be building a house we have to go in layers and then sometimes I’ll talk to them and they’ll be like “Oh uh uh uh what about this?” It’s like “Hold on a second did you understand the house analogy you’re asking me about the the moldings.” Dude I’m just getting the the 2x4s up like that’s kind of irrelevant right now right do do you at any point in time uh because I know you you know very your biomechanics uh very well do you at any like if somebody says “Well I want to hit a draw I say look you know based off your biomechanics and your structure and the way I’ve seen you swing your programming etc i don’t think that playing a big sweeping draw is going to be the best option for you do do you go that uh far into the biomechanics or do you just say “Hey I think that it wouldn’t be so much biomechanics it would be just understanding the range of motion and the joints and and kind of orientate the body at set up to get what I want.” You know some people might be crazy limited what they’re trying to do right uh I’m not saying that you you you can’t hit draws with you know a really hard external shoulder right but it would be really hard to add some torque to twist it so so depending on somebody’s anatomy and how they would position it and things are kind of preset to certain pieces right um and then you know limitations in the body and stuff like that but you can kind of cheat some of that stuff right because I can pull the trailside back so you can get a little bit more in in the equation and things like that i wouldn’t say it’s so much biomechanics but I’d just say it’s like can their anatomy do that right do they have crazy amounts of limitations so I’ll check that when I’m kind of doing the blueprint for the player and then once that that’s been established and checked off we’re good we can build this thing then then there’s no issues with with me building it but I think a lot of people have the capacity and the capabilities in their body um to either hit draws or fades without a problem um I think people are for the most part flexible enough to be able to put them into positions that I would need them to be in they just don’t know how to move and then they they they lock a lot of segments out which then creates a lot of stress on the body and then I don’t think a lot of instructors understand anatomy and how everything kind of works together so when I’m looking at like gears I love gears two things uh I look at the system as a whole right uh I I look at cuz it’s calculated right and I know that I had a conversation with which he kind of delayed my purchase of what I’m going to purchase right he said the vertical stuff was like about 10% off or about 5 to 10% off i have to look at my notes but everything else is pretty spot on that gears calculates and ground reaction forces it doesn’t do other pieces that that I’m more interested in to play with mhm but I look at the interaction between the player the ground timing pieces uh how the body works how the shaft works with the the player the eye curves to how it unloads and loads and how it moves i look at the collision between the club and the ball and then ball flight and then I got to figure out you know where their priorities lay that’s what I love about gears it’s also not so much for for me a lot of times it’s like you get some mid height handicappers like I don’t need gears like you can see that stuff a mile away right but I do want to see how they interact or the shaft interacts with their body and and sackman which I love GC Quad which I love right it’s just a moment in time i want to see things that are leading up to that i think a lot of people are going to react to what they feel in the shaft right feel the club face so like if I don’t have the club matching the players inputs and that thing is really wacky like that’s got to go right for beginner golfers and stuff like that if I really think that I need to show them stuff on gears to get a little buy in then I’ll put them in the suit outside of that but they’re all kind of getting the the club stuff because I need to make sure that it matches them yeah there’s no doubt about that i specialize in that for years yeah I I I’ll I’ll go I’ll circle back around and I’ll tell myself we’ll circle it back around as the body gets a little nicer right to look at some other deeper stuff but right now like it’s pretty simple but we need to make sure that the club works okay and then looking at the dynamic lie angle stuff like that cuz like even my clubs um you know you have your your standards from every manufacturer what the static lie angles all mine they’re all different um because I’m measuring it at impact and then where is it and then where do I want it to be and I tweak it all right to make sure that at impact my dynamic lie angle is flat with every single one of my clubs because the droop is different with shorter to longer clubs so I adjust all of that stuff right so I do that with all my players right making sure that everything is where it’s supposed to be yeah i get a kick out of people that come in and say “Well I’m all one degree up or I’m all too flat.” I said “No that’s not how it works.” Okay i I I have found that player dependent uh that used to be that let’s say the wedge nine and right around the eight would be very very similar like within half or quarter degree of angle people say you can’t do a quarter degress you start bending clubs every day for four and five years you you can hit quarter and half degrees and we the guy I work for used to send his machines to Mitchell every year to get them recalibrated so we were dialing it in uh very well and then you know then you’d have your next grouping your 765 would be very close to the same range and then your back then your four three and two would be in a similar but they would not be across the board on a on a on a linear uh progression because as you said they they towed I think it was 1.2 to 1.6 degree toe droop uh is what most clubs would do now you got to take into account a lot of different things heel to toe huzzle depth huzzle length all those things there was a range um but yes I I’m I’m right with you that you not not going all one up from the company standard or else you’re going to be struggling you you got to be able to go in there like I said and you got to look at everything everything has to be accounted for every every joint in the swing has to be accounted for how is the ankle and knee contributing to the upper segments right how was the trail elbow orientation instead of contributing to everything else in the golf swing and then how does it all work how does it all work together right integrated system yeah it it it’s really good like Dr bush uh and his anatomy class from the stack and tilt stuff was like wonders for me being able to spend time with Dr tyson and asking him he’s on a senior tour right uh Michael Manavian Andy Plameumber and David Tarashi and then you know Rob Rob Cheney I think so Rob I talked to him a little bit but like not not as much as maybe I should right i know he spent some time this year at the PGA show he was going to come out to do some sort of golf school with me but you know time constraints and stuff like that hopefully I’ll have him here cuz I really enjoyed I’ve talked to him at some of the seminars uh we’ve chatted a little bit online but I’ve never really had a really in-depth conversation with him so this year he stayed um with Michael and I at the PGA show so that was a really fun night some of the stuff that we posted online yeah I saw some of your live stream let me ask you a question i gotta ask you a question as I watch this the the stack and tilt community i’m not going to single anybody out but because you you trained a little bit in their system you know the guys and not again not saying that this is them the stack and tilt system a lot of their the the disciples I I’ll use that word the people that that are heavy in the stack and tilt they are absolutely fanatical and will die on that mountain to a large extent and and and I’m not saying this to be derogatory but I’m saying as an observation from somebody who’s I would consider myself more as okay sack until it works for some people it’s not going to work for others okay so can I write that down hold on hey keep going sorry okay the the the the question is why number one is why do some of the stack and tilt people why do they seem so adamant that and the need to defend the theory uh so so adamantly and I guess the the the second part well I I’ll just I don’t want to ask two question I just want to ask that question just to get your opinion because you you know that you’re not a stack until person but you know their system think they have I’ve known a lot of people in the network before I was on the network when Mike and Andy came out and started talking about the the movements in the golf swing it was very contrary to what was being taught in mainstream and then they got attacked okay and then they defended themselves very well right so a lot of those guys who kind of what you’re saying I don’t put their flag on the hill or whatever it is right um people are seeing them attack others but they’re forgetting that stack and tilt was very very heavily attacked early on right and if you’ve been around golf long enough you you I think you agree with like almost everybody would be like “Oh people ain’t doing that.” But like some of the descriptions and some of the pictures that they would use people weren’t understanding like when you go to change if somebody’s upper rotational center is moving 6 in to the right you got to feel like the upper is going to go left so they’re making people pose and posting pictures that was very contrary to really what they wanted them to do it was like “Okay this is you this is what you need to feel you got to get to here.” And then people were just like “Oh my god you can’t do that.” And just like “Well I’m just having the player feel that i’m not trying to really make them swing like that.” Now I would say that there are cuz there’s like there people in stock and tilt this might sound bad but I don’t think it is right there are people in stock and tilt who haven’t done what I’ve done with it and there are people who are in stock and tilt who’ve gone a little bit further than what I’ve done like a Cheney and a Manavian and stuff like that right mhm i’m not saying I’m at their level within the the network but I think Medavian would agree that I’m very close to that right stack and Tilt is basically the golfing machine moride on steroids right um the guys who are defending it are the guys who’ve been in it in the trenches for a long time and are also the ones who got bashed early on okay so I understand where they’re coming from i understand that they are adamant about their system and then relay information that is what the best players do not versus what people say and demonstrate right i know a lot of what stack and tilt is i know how much they’re using gears and stuff right because Mike and Andy if you look at the stack and tilt DVD they hired John Sinclair to do the 3D and they use force plates they were one of the first ones that I saw that ever had you know 3D brought into the equation into their system that clearly defined what they were trying to do clearly defined words where I think in our industry everything is so dang ambiguous it just creates more confusion than it is anything else right i know when I call uh Cheney when I talk to Andy when I talk to anybody in the network that I talk to when I talk to them we’re not like “What are you talking about Dennis?” like we have very specific words that we use we have coding systems so that our communication is very specific nobody can incorporate or interpret anything being different um and that’s what I like about it right um but just like in every system like you look at like TPI you look at Lead Better you look at uh Jim Mlan you look at the Hank Haney uh you mentioned somebody earlier uh whatever I can’t think of his name doesn’t matter but another system that or concept that people teach right i don’t really think people teach systems like some of the guys in stock and tilt do but kind of what I said is like some people will will maybe read just a book watch a video from somebody that’s posted something on YouTube or maybe it’s going to one class right and haven’t really understood the intricacies cuz I’ve been there um before I got into the network I talked to Navy a bit but I was already kind of talking to him a little bit he put me in contact with Andy i think I talked to Andy for a couple of weeks before I decided to join like I just had questions and and then he was very kind with his time answering my questions answer my questions answer my questions answer my questions and it just like it’s kind of not what everybody makes it out to be based on my experience with it so then I I went to a class and like listened to how Andy kind of laid out the whole training seminar and it was like it wasn’t like this is how you teach this is just how the body moves right just laid it out for you and then oh man I think I’ve been in there now for seven yearsish give or take a little bit every time I go to a seminar there’s always something new something different because you know Man’s got gears and they you know they’ve got gears pictures and they’re talking about the biomechanics and how the body moves and stuff like that like every really good stack and tilt instructor that I know knows that the pelvis moves a little bit from P1 to P2 right we just think it’s so small in the grand scheme of things right that you see a lot of those arguments on oh the pelvis moves like “Yeah no [ __ ] Sherlock i got million [ __ ] data points like but the problem is like when I speak to Dr pyson mid to high handed golfers when they sway off the ball their body cannot get them back forward so why would I have them swaying off the ball and again it goes back to the pitcher pieces i’m going to have them feel like they’ve got to move more forward and if they move an inch I don’t care there’d be some reference pieces of where you can be and where you can’t be but again like you know the ground reaction force people it’s okay yeah we know the pressure moves to the right none of us guys on sack until those said it didn’t like goes back you know 2010 before it was even popular I already was doing pressure traces yeah I think with my 3D motion so we know so the question then is is like are you factoring in the club coom to the trace so when you see people move to the right and you see the trace go to the right if you’re not using like a gears that’s going to look at the anatomy how do you know what’s really contributing to the pressure trace to the right because I can still stay centered and have the COOM kind of feel like it’s going to move the the the trace to the right so what moves that’s our thing right there’s a lot of different ways to move but the it’s looking at everything as a whole where you know the the kinematics of it to me is more important i wanted to know how each segment is moving not not the sum of all forces i think uh when Scott Lynn was on that that we were discussing the different pressure traces and uh how things get to the trail leg and and he said look stack and toe it’s a very good system you don’t argue it works very well for some people but that they would have let’s I think he described as roughly a 75% pressure trace to the trail leg where other models or other systems or um uh whatever somebody’s teaching uh might have upwards of 90 um I I I think it has sometimes to do with if you get into I I know you know about act the upper versus lower axium or a axial ro uh pivot points anchor points so how how does how does the body and the pelvis pivot around the lower half and how does the chest and the rib cage everything about that pivot above its own anchor point that they can differ for some people not for others so I my whole thing is I think again stack and tilt is a viable option for a fair number of people out there i think maybe a center pivot is a viable option for some and I think a rear pivot like a Gary Woodland would be a viable for some others where when you when you go back to Dr lynn 90% so it the problem that I have with some of these I guess you could say the ground reaction force guys who who want to see 90 so what if I shift my upper center rotation lower center rotation 6 in to the right and I haven’t reshifted it so I hit the 90% but my rotational centers are so whacked out mhm by the time I get to P5 I’m going to have some blowback i ain’t moving any more forward so now what so my upper rotation center of the center of the swing is so far back like that’s the problem so like kind of goes back I think stack and tilt would work for everybody if you understood what stack and tilt really is right and and like I talk to Manavian a lot and I tell people all the time like I like the fact that people don’t believe and understand what stock and tilt truly is because it’s a huge advantage to those who do know stock and tilt is basically basically a system to teach golf around the three-dimensional aspect of the golf swing that’s all it is that’s all it is in a nutshell andy keeps hammering that in classes that’s what people don’t understand people ask me all the time like “Oh it’s only left leaning.” Like nope not even close cuz if you look at my players some players might look more stack and tilt others don’t but I teach everything around stack and tilt and everything that I have learned through TPI and all that other stuff here here’s where I’m going with this is when I look at uh and when I look at Joe Mayo’s stuff and I look at uh Parker stuff you know one is teaching shallower the other one’s teaching more steep and my question to to both would be you’ve obviously had success with your students or they wouldn’t be coming to you have you determined what it is that would have somebody be more predominantly steep versus more predominantly shallow because there there seems to be they’re they’re both successful into theirelves when I look at the the discussion as golf instruction and coaches will have these debates sometimes they get a little more heavy than others the the the one right now that’s going back and forth is one between the AMG guys and the stack and tilt guys where they’re talking about the lead shoulder cut does it move more lateral does it come down that that I you can cherrypick both sides I think can cherrypick people to demonstrate what theory they’re trying to get across i think Shawn Webb is would be more of a trail loading type person so his is his shoulder is going to move more lateral i think if you took a stack and tilt guy that let let’s just say Sheffler is forsake argument sheer is a more centered golfer or left leaning golfer his is going to look like it like it doesn’t have as much lateral that it goes more down but I you have the gears and I I don’t I have a friend that has it so I I worked with him a couple times but I would say that in both instances that the the the rotation or the pivot point for both of them is still around the chest so whether that goes down and across whe or whether it goes more across or more down is more golfer dependent than it is just trying to teach somebody to fit into a certain model as opposed to a different model but with with with stock and tilt the really good guys are going to adjust whatever they need to to move the fundamental that the player is the most off with so contact distance curve right the good guys that I know apply in every shot in every lesson into the shot tree and then understanding in the shot tree what would need to be adjusted right i use in my gear system a lot um NG Chun and then Lydia Co lydia Co is very centered ng moves her upper rotational center about 3 to 4 in i forgot now hold on n pull it up so we got by the time she gets to P3 has moved her shoulders 2.3 in off the ball off of where started from P3 it starts to center real hard by the time she gets to P4 her pelvis is ahead of the upper body in the shoulder sway lydia stayed centered the whole time by the time they get to P5 they have basically the same amount of sway numbers so re recentering of up reverse to lower recentering from has to happen at like P3 right they can’t like The problem with the jazz majority golfers amateurs is that once they start to the to sway they never stop then they never slide so they never get back to loading the column at five so they’re always in trouble and then from five down to impact I call it blowback the upper center drops back even more so now they’ve moved to off the ball they haven’t shifted enough forward to recenter and then in that five it starts tilting back tilting back tilting back and then it creates all sorts of havoc right i would say that I don’t know anybody that I talked to in stack and tilt that if NG showed up at their doorstep or somebody who moved like right that anybody would change that to fit what people think stack and tilt is i don’t not anybody that I know would change that now I’m not saying that like what I said earlier but it would apply the same thing to every other system there are certain people who just take a class and then that’s done they don’t keep going back and understand the intricacies and then they don’t get mentors within the the organization to keep helping them with with questions that’s not me right um but like I said like everybody that I know in the network that I talked to would never change to make her Lydia nobody now you might have somebody in the network who is you not continuing with it you know what I mean just did that one class you know they might be like “Oh well you know you moved to the the too much to the right they’re not paying attention that it recentered that you need to be here.” Does that make sense that person might but I would say like they don’t understand the sophistication of the system enough but anybody who understands the sophistication of the system that I know that I talked to we would never change ever yeah I I many years ago before we knew about pressure shifting or before it was at least out before it was really out to many hardly anybody I wrote an article it had to be 17 18 years ago for a local magazine that dealt with swing to your body type without knowing any of this stuff without knowing biomechanics or anything and and and the two extremes I use I think stack and tilt had was just starting to make some some big moves into the into the golf world and the the two s examples I used was Jimmy Ballard’s kind of a more of a it had appear to have more of a lateral and we I’ll just say for sake argument and I hope some of the guys don’t beat me up i’ll just say that stack and tilt had more rotational okay is that fair assessment to to differentiate i would say stack and tilt would be not just rotation but extension okay so So we’ll use that but my my point was at that time when I wrote that article was without knowing any of this stuff and and it wasn’t out it was not being pushed out yet we didn’t know these things at least uh in the coaching world was that if you took the the Ballard method and look who really excelled in that to a great degree roco Mediate and Hal Sutton I guess would would kind of be Jimmy’s two big guys i know I know Curtis Strange anyone to Yman’s uh but Rocco and Hal had bigger girdle pelvic girdles that they were thicker chested at least at that time and Rocco’s lost a lot of weight since and guys who were really excelling with what I thought were at that time was stack and tilt guys was like Shawn O’Hare Justin Rose uh Dean Wilson Mike Weir went to it so guys who were not as who were more thin in stature and my whole point of that article was without knowing details of scientific theory i said it would maybe be beneficial to look at your body type to swing a little more towards that way as it would be to try to be a thicker chested pelvic girdle type guy and swing more of a stack and tilt and be a thinner guy and try to swing more of a ballard again using two complete extremes that I could find at that time and I I I still as I learn more about these things you know um I spent some time with EA Tishler and EA’s got some very very good information on anchor points and axle loads upper verse lower uh linkages impact linkage swing linkages and things like that and I think that and and he he’s a big guy on there’s a continuum that you’re not just fixed in one unit like like you just described with the two uh ladies one has a more of an upper body versus the lower but they do recenter at some point in the swing so I I I have a tendency to believe that there are I think what what I’m getting at I think the way to that coaches with all this mountains of data that we talked about is going to be to differentiate between this data and say “Okay what applies to this individual and then how do we optimize what they have to get them to play their best outside of just trying to pigeon hole each golfer in some sort of structured swing methodology.” Well I think that’s where because I think you hit the nail on the head right where that’s where you would need a system right so how do you evaluate the player by how big they are how small they are right are you going to look at arms length and height like I I don’t think that’s a good way to analyze anybody to figure out what they need i think you need to hit you know batch of 10 balls with a couple of clubs and plot out the shot and sit there like okay this ball started to the right well if you have you know data you can it’s easier to be done but you still have to watch the ball what is the ball doing and then what does the player need revolving around the fundamentals so you’re not trying to change something again I’m going to go back to the the guys that I talked to a lot like the really good guys within the stack and tilt network they’re looking at that and then they’re going to give you whatever you need within the system right cuz if you need contact pieces okay your contact is really wacky you’re behind the golf ball can’t hit the middle of the face what are the things that would influence that the most okay doesn’t matter if you’re big or thin you’re going to get the pieces that you would need big or thin you hit contact really well you can’t control the distance okay what are the pieces that are controlling the distance that you’re a little bit off on we’re going to give you those pieces if you can hit the ball solid and you can control your distance which I would define as the north and south and your east and west is crazy okay now I’m going to break down the east and west even more is there any consistency to the start location and is there any consistency to the curve okay if there’s no inconsistencies to the start location then I’m going to look at the swing and what pieces have the greatest influence on controlling the club face right and consistent player can’t feel it anyway so I’m going to start at setup and look at how the anatomical body is set up and then how it’s moving in time and space where things would be like my stick figure guys right because I don’t look at the fat all on you know the body i just I don’t look at the mass i just look at where’s the joint moving in space where’s the limbs moving how are they moving right how is it affecting the club face and again because I’m looking at things as XYZ axis where are they having the most issues with in the body and in the club right because that would be the lie angle that’s the forward and back of leaning the shaft forward and leaning it back and this would be the rotational piece but we’re just looking at the club face where’s their problems with that where’s the body affecting that then I’m going to give you whatever I need for that because then if you’re having inconsistency if you’re getting the ball started to the right I’d want to make sure in my assessment that at least I’m not getting crazy amount of deflection or I would say like maybe the lie dynamic lie angle is is too upright and I’m going to I’m going to look at those pieces first then I’m going to look at the anatomy then I’m going to look at where you are in time and space because I have a model of where things should kind of be okay what’s off then I’m going to give you that so that’s that’s what stack and tilt is stack and tilt really has helped me organize everything else I’ve ever learned and I and I’ve gone through the the Scott Cal stuff i mean he’s he’s fantastic he kind of helped me organize it but when I did his I was already in the sack and tilt stuff so it just helped me further organize everything that I had cuz I all this information and I’m trying to orientate it and then I was already kind of calling patterns different names right and then Scott came along and was like “Oh [ __ ] like I really need to get better at that to make sure I don’t crosscontaminate.” Right so then I’ve got files on stuff like this is what I need to do this is this one right so this swing plan would be a constant radius pattern uh like a Tiger Aari where there’s very little shifting and these would be the movement prep drills that you really need to do these would be my physical fitness drills that I would want to be able to see and then I have my plane shift patterns this is what I would do with movement prep this is what I would do with with the with the training aspect of it in terms of like some of the fitness ball throwing stuff that I do the rope stuff so making sure that I don’t crosscontaminate like I said that to me was like holy [ __ ] like that was the biggest missing piece that I had is how do I better organize everything that I have to make sure that I only apply what I need to the player so I don’t stick too much of my preferences into the mix right every teacher has one anybody who says they don’t have preferences you’re so full of crap it’s not even funny i have my preferences that I like to see and then like you’ve been following me you see some my plays they all swing a little bit different there are some principles that we we have but everybody’s a little unique in their own aspects keeping things within the framework and then the system in which I teach that we revolve everything around got to hit it solid you got to be able to control the distance you got to be able to have some predictions of the curve how do I got to get you to move better you know where are your strengths where are you not where you’re a little bit more flexible where are you not then I’ve got to build everything around building up some of the weaknesses or the deficiencies and then also trying to improve some of the things that they are doing good right I think that’s where like kind of goes back into like you know going back to advice to a new coach what do you want to do right because the amount of information that you would need you can either specialize in one piece or you can like Preston Kols I think he does an absolute doing freakingastic job with this putting stuff right um if I ever needed anybody right for putting I would have no issues of sending him to him no questions or having him come out here right um I’ve got my guys that I would I would absolutely trust my players with right i’m not sending anybody to anybody that I wouldn’t go see but everybody has developed that I know that is really good at whatever they do systems and processes how do I assess somebody how do I look at everything as a whole okay and then how do you go about corrective exercises to put things in place right and if if your teacher and coach doesn’t have that I if to me if your teacher can’t answer questions right or just tells you well see this is what Tiger does they can’t tell you the why I have a problem with that yeah because it might not pertain to that individual yeah like you have to understand the intricacies like I’m going to bring my car to the mechanic it’s because he knows everything about the car right you have to know how everything kind of works together as a whole and if you don’t understand that then I think that you’re limited to who you can teach right or who you can help because you’re going to take somebody kind of going back to if you really believe that everybody’s got to be centered that’s not her biggest problem and you’re going to go and change something that’s not the problem which then is a big problem in the grand scheme of things right so you got to know when to change it and what to change so if we use a Roco Media as example I know some of the younger players might not know who Roco is cuz you and I are in our 50s and Rocco’s pushing 60 if I’m not mistaken yeah I think so but he’s always had a a more or what appears to be more of a lateral lateral pressure would be more of his dominant move even though he’s going to have all three as you said if Rockco called you up and said “Dennis I I want you to work with me.” H how are you gonna are you going to keep that move in there that uh that he’s had success with or it it just depends on what he’s lacking what he needs like like we talked about this whole show what is it what is the medicine for the security miss does that make sense does he stop thinning it you know what is it like right what is the standard deviations right to to low point like so what is the standard deviations to his pelvis sway and and and shoulder sway rik sway and then how much slide is he is he putting himself back and lining things up early enough or every now and again is he too late with it cuz that’s what starts to happen when I was talking to Dr tyson about that stuff is that as we get older cuz he does all he’s week in week out in the senior tour with those guys right and I understand what you know they’re all trying to do because he’s the physical therapist for a lot of different players who are different a lot of coaches right and what they’re trying to do so I ask questions and he he kind of tells me some stuff we have some great conversations and as kind what I said like so if Rocco had a lot of success in in the right way early on he’s older now he might not be able to get back in time and then if he can’t get back in time and he has a standard deviation that’s too wide because in gears you get into the reporting you can see some of the standard deviation numbers and then you can easily kind of do it yourself and you can look at the Trackman if he starts to have too much standard deviation with his the imperatives with low point or swing direction you have to start to clean some of that stuff up so if I’d have to remove some of his sway I would but I would explain to him before why that makes sense and then we have to figure out is too straight and I need to open it up so we can kind of have a greater push to reduce some of the sway then I’m going to give you whatever you need but I’m going to dissect stuff first right cuz you got to have the buy in like you said earlier you you got to have the buy in buyer they’re not going to they’re just going to fight you on it yeah so then what’s the point of working with the player like I don’t see the point i think the the way that you describe it is something that is lost whether it’s lost in what the people are hearing and that because I don’t know Michael Manavan i I I’m going to reach out to him and Rob Cheney soon and it’s kind of harder to get to Andy Plamer and uh um Oh the other drawing a complete blank uh no the other stack can tilt uh Andy and um who came up with it the two guys that Yes mike Bennett yes so um and then I’m going to read I have reached out to the AMG guys that have to come on at some point at I’d love to do not not necessarily a debate but a discussion with two differing opinions at least of what appears to be online because I think the explanation as you just described or went into detail on is what is missing either in the social media world or at places like an open forum where where people don’t get a chance to expand upon their explanation but I and I I get a chance to talk to people multi-ours so I hear it and I’m thinking like everybody is a hell of a lot closer than they think they are so you brought up a point that after the open forum the TPI’s got me for about an hour give or take a little bit afterwards talking about stuff right um but some of the stuff that is said online and things along that nature and you ground reaction forces and stuff like that it got to a point where we were having a conversation and I’m like “Bud we are talking about the same thing using different words.” No yes we are i go “You keep talking about ground reaction forces in terms that I don’t fully understand your terms.” Okay because I don’t have a plate and and and like when I went to Grand Rapids to go see and help uh Brandon Roby right he’s got ground reaction force plates he was blown away because I don’t have any but my ability to change the goddamn ground reaction forces but he had to talk to me in gears words cuz he’s like what the hell is that he’s like huh like I don’t know what you’re talking about never heard of it you got to tell me something that I can understand or else I can’t do it i don’t know what I’m supposed to do so when we were talking to the the TPI guy and with the same thing like I’m like we’re talking the same thing just different words no we’re not i go “Oh yeah I think we are.” And after about a half hour it was like “Oh yeah we are talking.” See I told you right i think in certain instances I think there’s a lot of confusion cuz even the TPI guy had said that there’s some people kind of getting into the ground reaction force world and could be mistaken he’s like “Yeah these guys are coming in and now they’re changing their words.” I’m like “Oh my god.” So more goddamn confusion right that’s what I told Roby like why couldn’t we just use the already the terms anatomical terms and the biomechanics that was already in place that is bendier why do you have to come up with these all new words AP forces like I get it but why can’t we just say it’s extension with with some hip depth right because it’s basically it’s angled force like why can’t we just do that oh that’s not what they did why why create more confusion why why why but it’s about a bus everyone’s got to kind of put their own stamping on it yeah stamping problem Yes going back to what you said right Michael and I like and it was funny because kind of we’re talking about what you said because I’m Portuguese and I was talking to Manavian about it and I was trying to convince Manavian to go to TPI so that we could have a conversation right after the open forum like we need to have a conversation and he’s like uh like we’re going to have a conversation i am going to force the issue with you i’m going to create an opportunity with them and Brandon Ruby can attest because he talked to Blackburn right to try to get a meeting set up on the last day but they already had gone okay but I was we and I were driving in i’m like I just think based on my conversation with TPI they’re talking one thing we’re talking something else and there’s a communication piece because of the terminology right i that’s just me and when I start talking to him in Portuguese he looked at me I don’t know what the hell you’re saying i go there you go you really want to laugh homo last day at the PGA show kind of caught us and then we were talking and he starts talking to Manavian in Spanish and I just start [ __ ] cracking up oops sorry i start cracking up and he looks at me like I did the same [ __ ] to him this morning cuz you know like I just think there’s a big communication like people talk one thing when we we think it’s something else right there’s no common language you look at like doctors like they use very common language when they talk from one person to the next there’s there’s no what what the hell you talking about and that’s kind of what I said to you earlier it’s like we don’t have a common language people talk all sorts of like vague terms and nothing is very specific and that’s why I said like I talked to my my my guys in the network like we know what we’re talking about we’re not trying to like what huh like in a little bit with with Brandon Roby when you know I was consulting with him and he would say things like but I don’t know what you’re talking about man that in my head could be like five different things but like as our communication got better it was easier to get right to the subject right because again like talking to students in a in a group if my communication is too vague everybody in that room is going to interpret it different ways but if we educate them vocabulary that would be common language so when we start talking about external trail shoulder rotation like we all know what it means nobody can interpret it anything different it’s external trail shoulder or internal or supernation pronation does that make sense so to me the biggest problem in the industry it’s always been so vague everything is vague you talk to people like what the hell does that mean that’s why I trying to put their own spin on things like that i give I give Ping a lot of credit uh you know you’re talking about we’re I brought up the short game example earlier but they they put under their umbrella or brought them all in Derek Damky Joe Mayo and and James Ridyard and I don’t know were you at open forum last year or was it last year yeah last year um there was a short a wedge panel that I think I know Joe was on it i think Brad Faxton was up there uh somebody else was up there but James was in the a uh uh Frederick was up there for Trackman they were going over uh uh uh depth of angle of attack and all these other things and James said “Hang on a minute did you consider I don’t remember what he said X Y and Z.” And they said “No.” I said “Well then then your calculations are wrong.” So at that time I I think Joe and James were not in agreement on on some different things as far as chipping is concerned but I give Ping the credit and that Ping brought in Joe James and Derek and now they’re doing a lot of testing and I I can’t wait to see what comes out of that i think everybody’s kind of anxiously waiting but at least it got people who disagreed on a specificity specificity of a certain part of the game to now that okay now they’re together now any differences in their let’s call it dialect or what language they’re speaking or anything else like that they can work through those because now they’re under the same umbrella and I think that the result is going to be phenomenal i would agree but again it’s it it’s the words that everybody uses yes and what they’re comfortable using so I I think I if if we did that with uh a stack and tilt or someone who has more is big and John Tatterol is big into more lateral forces you know he’s put a lot of information out on that and let So if we had more discussion and like I said I’ I’d love to have multiple different I’d I’d like to create a series of the podcast where I had differing opinions and we had a very very good discussion i I’m not even going to call it a bit i want to say a very good discussion so that these layers of uh miscommunication or using the wrong dialect or whatever language you want to use so that these things can become more uh common denominators and and both sides can say holy [ __ ] we are more in a line than we ever thought we would and that would be the goal now if they differ okay you guys can differ please explain why and and Mr so and so do you understand that mrs so and so do you Yeah but we’re going to we’re just going to agree or disagree okay fine we everyone can go with that but I I I I would like to try to bring people like that in um I’ll be reaching out you can tell Michael and and all those guys that that I’ll be reaching out to them to do it i I I I Robby can attest to it blackburn from what Roby told me got the tech he had left already to go work with an LPJ player at I forgot what club it was so he couldn’t do it the other guys had already left but I tried to put that together right and then I told my be prepared because if I could put it together you’re going right um you don’t have a choice and he’s like okay fine right um but I I think a lot of it is little miscommunication right i I I think for the industry and for golfers in general right um in the big picture it would be very beneficial if we did something like that right um I’m not a even though like I like to bicker sometimes when it all starts and stuff right you don’t like to instigate or be a provocator northeast so anybody who northeast and knows me very well i like to kind of every now and again but but the same people who know like I like to ri some people and and and kind of talk some crap also know that you know in in the big picture thing that that’s kind of what I’m interested in right i I want good information i want uh information in regarding um players tired of the stupid influencers on social media giving such terrible guiding information that all it’s going to do is is hurt golfers do stupid crap i I I want to I can’t say I’m going to unify everything right but it would be nice to have a conversation with TPI that I I will say I reached out to them the other day because I do want force plates i think I figured how to kind of do it in here in the way that I want it being done that’s one of the reasons why I haven’t gotten one and again like I talked to my lady the other day about he goes “I wouldn’t get one.” I’m like “You’re not getting what I’m getting with.” Right and and it goes back to Steve Gold steve Gold from Gasp will tell you like the first year was at the PGA show i had a long conversation with him and then I came back and started looking at some stuff and just like it just doesn’t work the way I’d want my wanted to be able to to go back and forth between righties and lefties and I’m telling people like “Oh the lefties can’t do it.” I’m like “Hell no man i’m a lefty like I’m not going to freaking hell no no freaking way if I ain’t doing it for righties and lefties then hell no i ain’t doing that.” And they’re like “Oh just move the force plates around.” I’m like “They’re 30 lbs a piece it’s like I ain’t going to freaking move that [ __ ] back and forth am I a getting any younger like I could probably handle that for like a couple months but that’s going to get old then how long is the calibration piece going to have to move like like oh heck no i ain’t doing that either but I think I’ve kind of solved the the riddle to the equation uh when I was talking to Gears the other day because of the room size um I was talking to them like “Oh yeah you can do that.” I was like “I can?” He’s like “Oh yeah yeah room is too big.” I was like “Oh I guess it’s not too big then.” He go “No actually it’s a really good size for a room.” He goes “I’m surprised you built it that big.” I like “Well I just wanted a big room i don’t want to feel people feel claustrophobic in here.” So I did reach out to TPI and I asked them some questions about because I know they use Gasp and I know that they do a lot of stuff with Smart to Move um so I have talked to to Gasp uh him a bunch tyler Stander is doing a lot of the research for Smart to Move because I’ve had him on um I think that’s the name that might be familiar i have to look at my notes i I’ll I’ll send you a link there was a lady that I was talking to and then when I started to ask some questions she had mentioned the name and now that you said that that kind of familiar i forget the universities at somewhere Colorado i have to look up I’d have to look up like I said in the email cuz they sent me some information that I wanted cuz I had asked some questions they’re like I’ll send you that information so they do have it it’s in my email connected i’ve got his email if you want to trying to figure out like what what the name was who I talked to but like I said I’m I’m talking to I talked to those guys at Smart to Move i talked to Steve Gold i talked Sony Morgan sells the gas stuff here uh I’ve talked to Brandon Roby about gas because he has one talked to the guys at TPI on Instagram um asked them some questions um because I’ve gone through a lot of their program like they’ve they’ve helped me quite a bit with with with with things right do we see things completely eye to eye now kind of sort of somewhat not really i I don’t I don’t have any issues with that right um I like I I I don’t think it’s about someone being winning the discussion i think it’s both sides at the level that they would be at are going to go go in there and both are going to take something out of it yeah and and I think like again like as as an industry as a whole I think the first thing that we need is we need to come up with more common language and and and kind of get away from talking about things that create more confusion with people right i think that’s a big problem i think it’s a really big problem right um so vague i think we have to educate our our our clients better right and at the same time I always tell people like I’m the smartest dumbest golfer on the planet they’re like “What?” I go “Yeah like like I practice very technical.” And then that’s my swing work and I try to take that technical piece and try to find some sort of stupid simple feel that I can go play golf with then when I get on a golf course and all suddenly like you play golf like all a sudden [ __ ] hits the fan like I got to adapt but I got to understand what I’m supposed to do right because if I apply the wrong fix in the golf course there goes the rest of the goddamn round uhhuh right so I’ve got to apply a fix or if I’m going to go play today and you know I’m on the range and like ball ain’t doing what it normally needs to do and this ball is unplayable i’ve got to do something right and this is some of my problem with some of the the mental game guys oh you just got to think better what the hell is that going to do like I got no idea where the damn ball’s going to go you can’t will the ball posit it’s like oh think positive like try to imagine the ball flying the way you want like you don’t think I’m not already trying to do that like I got no idea where this ball is going i need something to get this ball more predictable so I can be like “Okay I’m calm now now I know where this ball is going now I know where to aim.” Right but if I ain’t got no idea where this ball’s going this ball’s curving right curving left going straight this thing is going all over the place i don’t care who you are psychologically you ain’t got a shot in hell of starting to have some positive frame of mind going into your round of golf it ain’t going to happen i don’t know i I need some sort of technical quick fix give me something right won’t the handle back weaken the arm okay that got rid of the hook okay well that’s how I’m going to play today tomorrow I’m going to go back to my pattern and and and fix the things that I really need to fix but I need something to go play golf and anybody who’s played golf at a pretty high level or you know pretty consistently knows like what I did yesterday and what I feel yesterday might not work today so and you’re going to try to go back to yesterday’s fields you’re already in trouble yep you’ve already burned through them i I that’s just way easy way to say it is that at the bare minimum that muscle that you had the perfect sequencing on or that you dialed in the sequencing on that musculature is going to be a little fatigued and I know that golfers will say “Oh no i hit balls all the time.” No we’re talking about your finite detail to control the ball how you want to if you did it it’s why it’s so hard to shoot backtoback good rounds it’s crazy hard yes right and then again you just slept like see you could have done that in the morning and going back in the afternoon and not done it right so how do you get rid of those crazy high rounds i would just call it it’s adaptability it’s having a system to understand pre and postshot you know am I going to analyze this or am I not okay I am but I better have a really nice process that’s going to help me understand to get to the root cause so that I can apply some sort of fix so I can get this damn ball around the golf course with some predictability and might be a little bit more of a grind today cuz I’m not going to hit anything that close to the pin but my putting is good so who cares right i just could hit some greens and I can limit the damage and I can at least go post a round then I can go to bed cuz tomorrow when I wake up who the hell knows what I’m going to do and I think that’s the best thing about the game that I freaking love and I think the people who struggle the most can’t accept that yeah I would agree i think there’s going to be tons of variations right but there are things that I’ve got to be able to do and then move away from move to get this ball in the hole and I think that’s what really helped me playing other sports right is especially the mental game thing cuz that was the hardest thing for me when I first started playing golf the dead time to beat yourself up like in soccer a lot of that in golf in soccer as an example like if you know if I was trying to hit it down the left hand wing to the outside part of the you know the player shoulder between him and the end line and I put it to the inside he’s not going to stop and go “Too bad you didn’t hit it over there.” He makes the adjustment and you’re like “Oh [ __ ] oh he’s got it.” So you gota okay where’s he had it now you have to go you make a run so you can provide support where everybody else’s is right so it’s automatically like uh okay we’re good quick glance of the field where do I got to go now right uh basketball same thing lot more reactionary and but I’m not beating myself up even though I know I messed that up but in golf I get to wait for everybody else to hit i’m in the right trees now now I’m walking down the fairway oh my god I closed the club face now in the next T-shot I got to make sure I don’t close the club face and then versus focusing on what I want to have happen but now I’m like oh don’t make this ball go to right i don’t want to close face no I hit left and I was only a dead again um that’s what I mean like that was the biggest thing that I struggled with and then I started like thinking more and more about it it’s like Dennis you’re never perfect in anything else you played you just either my team got it or the other team got it and then you had to go figure out where you needed to be and what you needed to do where in golf you don’t react there’s just too much dead time to beat yourself up over stuff that you need to learn to let it go that’s where my close shot routine came into play like am I going to bother with this thing or just golf cuz you’re going to hit a a ball sideways every now and again that’s just golf okay forget it post shot routine is a developed skill the same as swing speed increases you as you just mentioned particular people who come from other sports cuz I used to come out of playing basketball in the in the winter to golf in the spring and it it was much harder than it was to go from playing golf in the in the fall which is I grew up in Michigan our season was in the fall then to go into basketball it was like wow this is so much easier not beating myself up for hours at a time yeah and that’s why it’s it’s it’s nice for kids to have these experiences playing other sports specifically as it relates to the mental game right because you start you know talking to kids like I had this one kid who was really good but he was a baseball pitcher he just could not let go that their ball was supposed to curve to the left and they went straight now instead of being 10 ft he’s 30 ft but he hit a green and he’s on the right side right he couldn’t let that go and I’m like “But you’re baseball pits here right?” He’s like “Yeah.” So if you run to throw a curve ball bottom right as a right-hander so I don’t understand the plate but the bottom left of the plate and the ball doesn’t curve and it sits high to the inside and you still get the run right no no you still get the strike right hanging curve it’s gone right i know but I give you still got the strike right you’re going to say “No Empire i wanted to go bottom left i don’t want the strike it’s a ball.” He goes “Oh hell no it’s a strike.” You hit a green same thing it’s the same thing they didn’t hit the home run you didn’t hit the straight shot into the hazard who cares you hit the green ultimately you’re in the fairway you want to hit the green yes you want to hit your shape cuz that’s what you’re trying to do but you’re not going to hit that shape all day so I made a mistake and it’s very playable next are you going to let that go but in baseball like the funny little noise is like he goes “Oh yeah we got the strike.” I go “What happens the guy hit it.” Goes to get it out i’m like “Yeah you got to know.” And then who cares you got to know i go “So why can’t you play golf like that?” Doesn’t know how are you trying to be any less perfect in baseball or you trying to throw the pitch how you see it he goes “It’s the same thing but you make mistakes but because you got the end result of what you wanted you still got the striker you got the out it didn’t leave the ballpark you don’t care but in golf some people can’t get that they only expect to hit the pearl perfect and if it’s not perfect then it’s a problem and and they don’t understand what average is most players it’s a shotgun not a rifle shot yeah a anybody who watches golf on TV if they’re gravitating towards golf from another sport which they probably will at some point and if they watch golf on TV now they’re interest yes because and I got to remind people i said “Look you’re seeing the best in the world for a particular week.” I I went through this myself you growing up as a kid watching Harbortown I didn’t realize that the fairway on 18 in the landing zone was basically a 100 yards wide i always thought it was this little strip of land that was like 15 yards wide i’m like “My god are those guys unbelievable at 15 yard strip at 280 to 300 yards i thought and for you got to think for 10 years in my mind I thought the pros were that good and that was Yeah when I started to play I thought it had to be like that all the time and then I got to harbor time like this is 85 yards wide my my image was blown i have some players like when when they come to the area the tour like I I I you have to go you have to find a group one group and follow them for for six seven eight holes and then you can do whatever you want and then come back and tell me like I had one of my girls go there this year finally I got her to go she never wanted to go and I’m like just go so a couple of her friends went they went she came back she’s like those guys suck i’m like what she goes they hit them all over the joint oh like you yes oh so they’re not always hit in the middle of the fairway and hit the ball to 3 ft right and then she looks at me she’s like “I hate you.” I go “Why?” I go “Because you think just hit the every fairway dead straight hit the ball to like three feet and then you went the best best players in the world one group and they hit it all over the place.” When you watch it on TV you only see the best shots i go “So your perspective of what you need to do versus what you have to do is so different.” But when you go watch them live they good right but they hit the ball all over the place not everybody’s on 247 no it’s not they can still post a good score you know what else I I think that comes from from juniors they play junior golf and they get good in junior golf is they associate their best rounds with then when they were hitting it how they wanted to so now it’s some way shape or form they think in order to score their to get their next low let’s say they broke par so now to to break par more often they think they had to do that all the time i think there’s an association so many ways yes so many ways some of my best rounds were when I was hitting it crooked i just happened to chip and putt it well and it didn’t give strokes away i played more conservative i made more 20footers and there’s seven under the same thing is like we use arcos like and I show the kids it’s like hey you shot 72 you shot 72 yesterday you shot 72 today look how different everything is so there’s so many ways to shoot 72 right the thing is if you want to go shoot make 7268 those that you know that 8 foot that 7 foot pot putt you know the the green that you hit and you didn’t hit it close and you three putted you’ve got to save some of those shots at some point that’s how you get to the to that 68 right it’s more about not making the simple mistakes because very often the poor players don’t make simple mistakes when they have a chance they they capitalize for the most part when you hit a green and you’re too far away you three pump and then you’re chasing trying to hit the ball perfect and hitting the ball close to the pin but you’re not practicing those long range putts that every now and again you have look look at your three putt percentage when you’re out here you three put from out here 35% of the time like you’re just throwing away shots go practice it get better at it yes because you can’t expect to hit the ball close every game day it’s not going to happen throwing yourself out no they don’t look at the stats stop watching TV right you go look you go look at the stats in the PGA Tour and I showed them on you know when you go to the PGA Tour website they’re like “Oh my god they’re that far from the pin.” I’m like “Yeah and you think you need to be 5 feet.” like holy Christ but you remember the one rifle that you hit three weeks ago and you want to do that all day but you’re not remembering you know the other ones that you’re about 20 feet right like it that you got to understand what your pattern is and learn how to play your pattern that’s right what you you uh I want to be respectful of your time we’ve been John for quite some time and I I thought we probably would but you got a few minutes to do a rapid fire emergency 9 let’s kind of wrap up the show yeah yeah no like uh I’m not doing much today i’ve got some guys coming out at at 4:00 my wife was supposed to work today uh well I’m sure we could talk until 4:00 but yeah I got nothing nothing to do we’re going to go out for lunch in a little while she she went for a walk she got the boys so we’re going to go for lunch and then I got to come back to work because I I scheduled some people at work because she was supposed to work and then yesterday we kind of celebrated you know the holiday because we both didn’t work in the afternoon so um she’s a nurse or she was supposed to work she didn’t have to go to work today uh and then we talked about it before she’s like “Yeah why not?” Like “If you want to be home with the boys all day then fine if not then then go to work cuz most likely I’m going to have to go to work.” So I was like “All right.” So we celebrated it yesterday so I don’t have anything to do for a couple hours i’m going to practice i might go to the club to go hit some balls or something to play i go a bad alternative they have a that depends off the lights you know um so the boys are out of school now but it is a holiday anyway so we we’ll see what we’re going to do so it’s a good thing good good to have options and good to have fun options with your family yeah it it it’s it’s fun you know I had kids when I was older i’ve been around junior golf for a real long time i I had conversations with my dad about how I was you know you have kids not that I know of okay so if you have kids then anybody who has kids it’s going to they’re going to they would agree that you know when the kids are young they want to be around you and then it gets to a certain age it’s all about your friends you don’t want to be your parents anymore so my kids are still at that age and they want to hang out with mom and dad yeah take advantage of it so I’m trying to take advantage of it as much as I possibly can so I hear that from my dad i hear that from you know parents right i see it with kids you know that that I’ve had for a long time that they’re always with the parents and now that they got a driver’s license like I haven’t seen your parents in a while how are they i don’t know i haven’t seen them in a couple days right and it’s like oh that day is coming so you know the boys want to be with us so I try to take advantage of that as much as I possibly can it was about me when I was younger trying to play professional soccer trying to play on on the PJ tour playing professional golf and then it was like okay I got to transition into teaching i got to go travel the dang country to to go learn so we didn’t have kids until I was kind of a little bit more established with what I wanted to have some stability so that I could be around them a bit more or as much as I possibly can um so like when I can I like I like to play golf but I prefer to spend time with the kids because they still want to spend time with me so emergency nine everyone the the the longtime listeners will know the first song or the first question the last question are have been the same in basically every episode you’re I think your 180th episode we’re almost 200 episodes uh but everything else we kind of mix and match uh but but it’s it’s a fun way to wrap up so if uh you’re playing your member guest or you’re you’re you uh your pro career took off all of a sudden uh Manavian got you striping it and making every putt you looked at and you made the RDER Cup and you’re walking up to the first te at the Ryder Cup or your member guess uh what song are you going to have them play oh boy you want to get the crowd all pumped up and on your side what what what song are you going to crank over i’m not a big baseball fan i grew up in Providence we had the the Red Sox in the backyard mhm but I think baseball’s awful watching on TV i just I I can I could do it and most of my friends were were socks fans so they’d ask me to go watch you know baseball like no can we just go do something else and then I would go just because we go to the bar and you know kind of hang out and stuff um but that Yankees Red Sox rivalry made me laugh cuz then like the Socks you know the whole Bambino curse that you had to learn about and stuff like that was kind of funny to me but like you know sure as anything you s learn about the curse of that Bambino whatever that thing was and Red Sox just always threw it away and I was always laughing and then get mad at me so then I’m like “Oh this baseball’s now fought.” So then I became a fake Yankees fan to needle him a little bit right um so Sandman I I did like Mariano Rivera i thought like he was like really dominant right it it created that that lure of like when he came in it was over for the most part so Sandman I’m not I like Metallica but I would have to say the Sandman i like that that’s a good song that’s Especially for us i think Sandman if I’m not mistaken and her Sandman yeah oh I love that i I thought that was awesome but again like I always had that mentality playing soccer like if there was free kicks and stuff like that like I was going to end the game like it was it was going in you know what I mean so I always had that kind of mentality so then I kind of get never really thought about it too much he asked me that question first name that would pop into i’ve always liked him i like that that lure of the baseball thing of the song coming in so if it had to be something it would be that oh it’s a good one it’s a very good one um let’s say Hollywood calls you and they say “Uh Dennis we’ve been following your career it’s very interesting multi-ports good great golf coach um medical bi biomed engineer you’ve done a lot of cool things but we want to make a movie about your life and we’re going to let you or your wife cast whatever actor to play you.” Who who who are you going to have them cast this is a bad question for me well may may well maybe we’ll rephrase it we’ll say who who is your wife going to have them cast as you shake a pick that’s kind of a bad question cuz like we don’t watch much TV and I don’t know actor’s names it’s the same thing like No problem we skip i don’t know many songs but I do know the Sandman one um we got into Lost we’re watching Lost now again on repeat but for the most part when the TV’s on we have a nine and 5year-olds so it’s Moana and all that other good stuff you know all the songs right so I know that stuff right uh oh man like I don’t know like I guess I would have to say like in terms of movies like I just introduced Emily she was over the house the other day watching the kids when I got home we we were just chatting i was flipping through the station and then um Top Gun was on the new one Maverick [ __ ] like cuz I like that movie right yes so I’m like “Have you watched this?” And she’s like “No.” I’m like “Your dad was in the military like how do you not watch this at home with him?” And he’s like “Well I know that you know he’s gone to watch it but no I’ve never watched it.” And I’m just like “Man you don’t know what you’re missing.” Right so we watch that i like I like Tom Cruz i like the Mission Impossible movies as well for my limited people off the top of my head of movies I’ll say Tom I guess the other one I would know is uh like I don’t know it’ have to be like I would say from Lost the Doc whoever his name is i don’t know the Doctor’s name i don’t know i haven’t seen Lost but I’ll I’ll [ __ ] yeah so we’re like season four now catching up to it oh yeah all right um we’re big on uh Mob Land that’s out right now uh Mob Land it’s got Tom Hardy uh Pierce Brosman is a head of a uh a family syndicate in in London uh it’s very Tom Hardy is a main character um uh Helen Mirren plays Pierce Brozen’s wife and then you have the dysfunction of that world and that and the family aspect of it and but Tom Hardy is a main character so if if you like anything that has to do with mob criminal/ series it it’s really good it just had the ninth episode yesterday their season finalees next week so check that one out if Yeah so if it’s on like Netflix or something then that would be something it’s on I think it’s on Paramount and u so whether where you get your Paramount Plus you can probably watch that on Yeah like we’ll have to look into it a little bit because it’s kind of it’s nice kind of Could we watch it late after the kids go to sleep we’ll watch like an episode or two but like outside of that like we don’t I’ve never been much into watching TV i like being outside i like doing stuff uh there’s a somebody else had mentioned the other day i wrote it down it’s on the other side of the building because we were talking about TV and he was talking about this ep this TV show that he’s watching talking about he goes “How are you going to watch it?” I’m like “Man I don’t watch a lot of TV.” Like “Well we’re talking about Moana and and all that other stuff that the boys watch the pandas.” They’re like “I got all that for you.” But he’s like “Dennis you have to watch it.” He go “I’m just watching Walsh right now.” He’s like “You have to watch it.” I was like “All right.” So write it down and then I go “I’ll talk to the wife about it but we’ll we’ll we’ll see.” But it’s just like we’re getting into like the really warm weather and I don’t want to be inside right at home you know we would watch a little bit more when we were living in New England because the winters were so long and it was so cold like you kind of got into a few more things and watch a little bit more TV but as soon as the the the sun came out it was like we were always out i don’t like we would go to friends house pools we’d be going out all the time and like the weather’s changing here it’s the same thing like I want to get up early i want to go to play golf before I have to come to work right the course opens up at 7 so I’m getting old you get tired during the day so I I don’t like going to bed at 11:00 anymore like we used to so once the kids go down every now and again we’ll watch a couple of things of Lost or an episode of Lost and then go to bed but as this as the summer goes down like the boys just want to go to the pool all day right so it’s just like So it’s just a beat by the time like 9:00 comes around you know almost like Yeah that that’s about but usually 7 8:00 after we eat I’ll watch some series Mob Land Gangs of London we watch that one okay um there was a a a martial art one with gangs in in late 1800s San Francisco called Warrior it was taken from Bruce Lee’s writings which actually became kung fu so they kind of twisted it to keep it in the city but I just like stuff to shut my brain off and I’m going go so many directions during the day by 7 8:00 I’m not answering the phone and doing [ __ ] i’m just going to go brain dead and watch some entertainment and uh wind myself down well I liked Scarface so that was kind of fun if anything that No the movie that revolve around that kind of stuff is is kind of cool i I kind of like that um I like like I said Mission Impossible things like like I said like just just something that you can really get into yes and it’s going to keep you off because anything that’s just too slow is like I’m going to pass out like I ain’t going to watch that stuff right i like action movies so I guess you could say I’m with you uh let’s see if you could give a lesson to any historical figure who would it be basically anybody you wanted to who would you like to give a lesson to anybody i don’t know it’s going to be very controversial i’ll say it anyways it’s all right all right that’s Hey it can’t fit your mantra he’s fascinating to me go ahead shoot trump who trump the hell trump but there you go right he plays golf like he like he’s you know people get mad at him now they used to like him now they don’t like him right i think that’s a that’s a very good one i didn’t even think of that that’s I don’t like I don’t I wouldn’t say I like him I don’t like him i don’t even know who the guy is so for me to kind of listen to what the media has to say about him now whereas before they used to love him and now they hate him like that to me is kind of weird right um well I I I think in some ways I think in some ways it’s similar to what we were talking about in that speaking different languages so like Bill Maher Kid Rock got Bill Maher to go to the White House and have dinner with Trump yeah yeah and and then Mar went on a show and said he was completely different at dinner than he was on TV so yeah I I I think it’d be very interesting to one-on-one and talk golf and talk about different things bill Maher is kind of funny now that you brought him up because and maybe I’m wrong but because I don’t really pay a whole lot of attention to politics and stuff like that um I’m just too busy to to to worry about that other stuff right and and to me politicians are all going to say whatever they want to say to get them elected and they’re going to do whatever the people want them to do to do right um but Bill Maher and you can correct me if I’m wrong if you kind of paid more attention but he was way more left-leaning before and he kind of seems to be kind of a little bit more yes when kind of fascinating is calling out some craziness that I always always thought was crazy right but but he’s calling that stuff out and then I think it’s funny is that now that he’s calling it out people are calling him out and it’s just like but everything is like pretty normal like like I don’t understand how you can think that way he would be somebody now that you brought him up it would be Trump but he would be another one that I would be like what made him all of a sudden kind of start to move a little bit more to the middle cuz I thought he was always like especially during like Trump’s first presidency and stuff like that he was very left very anti-Trump but I don’t think he had many issues with Trump like that would be my question to anybody did he have a lot of issues with Trump before he ran like I know that the view for instance they’re funny as hell you ask me because they used to have him on the show and they I’ve seen videos of that on Twitter they’re all laughing and loving him and all these kill him like oh my god it’s like like what did he do to you guys like I’m just curious well Mayor’s another example in that I thought he was very extreme left or heavily leaning that way and Bill Maher Mayor and then when he was on Rogan I listened to that whole episode and I was like he’s nothing on this like he is on his show so you know you got ratings and everything else like that that’s why when I started this podcast I said I don’t care about rating i don’t care about making money i just want to talk to people learn more about golf and and get some interesting guests on i think one too you know you brought him up you know yep um cuz he’s not afraid to say what he he wants right um I I think like people like that I like because I guess I I’m a little bit like that right if I don’t like something I’m going to tell you and then if you don’t want the answer don’t ask me at least you know if they’re going to be forthright and and say something and they’re not going to have a big governor on thing at least you know even if you disagree with them you know where they’re coming from there’s a big respect aspect to that that Okay i don’t have to worry about them saying something behind my back they might say something I don’t like but at least I know they’re straight up yeah like everybody who knows me knows me like you don’t really want me to answer the question don’t ask it because you might not like the answer but you’re going to get an honest answer like and and if I say something behind your back it’s cuz I’m going to say in front of your face right i’m very straightforward with things and some people like that and some people don’t i don’t beat around the bush right um so people like that you know sometimes can kind of get misunderstood right cuz I know sometimes some of my people like get really mad at me and then after a little while they’re like “Oh that’s what you meant.” I’m like “I thought it was pretty clear.” Or at least to me it was clear right so you know misunderstandings and stuff like that but like people like that are are kind of fascinating to me right so like I said I would Trump would probably be number one like cuz I’ve never really thought about it to be honest with you now that you brought out Mayor Bill Maro whatever his last name is like I think he’d be kind of fascinating cuz I I I cuz I think he’d probably be a little bit more open now than what I remember him being before cuz he was so left left right um or whatever you call that stuff i don’t I think it’s called left now left leg um but I think like he’s like what made him you know change to to kind of change his views like that that those people like that are are very interesting and it would be the same thing for like I don’t even know if that’s actually the case to be honest with you if somebody who’s very right leaning is now affiliate what made you like do a complete 360 like I’d love to have conversations with people like that cuz I think that’s fun i would agree that I got the podcast yeah I do like conversation like that that you you you probably will never have with somebody else and you kind of because I kind of don’t care at the same time like whatever you want to say say it like I don’t really care but I’m always fascinating with how people come around I guess you could say or change their views like what happened for for somebody to go do that um so yeah I would start with him it’d be fun and he plays golf so yeah that’d be a very cool one yeah um if you could stick a restaurant in your kitchen can be a chain can be a local can be a national what restaurant are you going to put in there that any time of day you go down to your kitchen and get that food uh anything Portuguese i miss it cuz back home like we had a lot of them in Texas it’s like you don’t so like uh Portuguese seafood right cuz I miss the seafood from the Northeast portuguese food I don’t get that and then like I get mad at my mom a lot and she knows by now because I’ve been out of there about 13 years now like when I go home I don’t want steak i don’t want chicken i want fish i want some sort of Portuguese dish cuz you ain’t getting that stuff here and no offense the steaks and stuff like that are better down here than they are up there so like that’s the kind of food that that I really miss i miss the the Portuguese and I miss you know the fish yeah I’m the same when I go home i grew up uh I’m Serbian and grew up very every weekend was at the Serbian social center and the the holidays and everything that the the when I go there I that’s I splurge on that stuff or try to like I miss we have Portuguese rolls that the Portuguese bakery makes that my dad will go and get uh and and by the time he gets home it’s it’s warm because they just made it and then you start putting Oh my god it’s just like I had two six oh I have at least two or three and they’re big they like they like that but they’re so light the boys like it but they don’t like the outside they just eat the inside but like my dad’s got to go get 12 cuz then I I’ll eat two or three the boys have a couple carrie has a couple and they’re like “You want eggs?” No you want bread again yeah i want bread for the next five days cuz that’s how long I’m going to be home for like I only want I can get eggs at home i got bacon at home i don’t want any candy rolls only good when they’re fresh so like no it’s got to be warm so yeah last summer I went home there’s a Serbian lady has a bakery and I went there six days in a row had donuts six days in a row for breakfast had at least three a day yeah you have to it’s like you miss it like there’s certain things that I grew up cuz I lived there a long time right that like that’s what I want that’s what I crave and then you start looking at the the schedule like “Oh man three more weeks before we get this three more weeks.” And was already saying to my mom “Make sure you have this and I want this and I want the shrimp and then I want the sea bass i want to go to this Portuguese restaurant on this day.” So we need reservations make sure you go get the reservations yes i want to go here right um so like I already start getting my list together and start sending it to her so to prepare her for stuff get her ready oh yes uh this one I always ask coaches uh if there is one uh do you have a uh any particular favorite training aid that that you like to use uh simplicity wise uh yeah it’s the Total Golf Trainer very simple um you know that that that whole pack that they have kind of like the the jack of all trades and and and it provides enough feedback for pretty much anything and everything that I would want to to be able to work on with somebody um so yeah I would say they would be first and then I like to hang a training gate those would be my my two cool um who would be on your Mount Rushmore of coaches okay hold on in general or people who’ve influenced me e either or just you get to pick four what four are you putting up there in stone four oh boy uh Andy Manavian i like what John Sinclair did for me in 3D john’s a good guy uh for us okay uh your this one I’m interested to hear because you you like a lot of different things uh your favorite purchase in the last 12 months under $1,000 can be golf related can be something you bought for your house can be a some kind of tech device you got whatever your favorite thing that you bought in the last year under a,000 bucks um I don’t think I bought anything to be honest with you you watch the same TV show you don’t buy anything you got to do some more you you do good i’m I’m sure you do well you got to start enjoying it i’m very boring um especially like Oh I I know I would say they’re more expensive would be the the Cobra 3D printed irons okay there you go they’re a little more than a thousand right but yes a little bit they they are freaking fantastic unbelievable you find that they’re hotter no they’re not hot like do you find that you hit it longer let’s say compared to the same loft as your old seven iron you hit the new 7 the way longer the the lofts are different okay so like my my issue with some of the hot face stuff like you know you look at these tech and Cobra P790s P770s anything like that every now and again when you get that center one that thing goes like 10 yards longer than what you’re expecting the 3D printed they don’t they go way further they’re about my my my 3/4 3D printed irons go the full distance of my M Cobra MBs when I hit the 3D printed irons hard they go about 15 yards further but when I go to hit it hard it’s always about 15 yards further except when I mis hit it so I have never seen a hot one yet so it’s weird just So do you think the distance extra distance when you go at it is from the or my speed and then my Okay so so I I I decrease I’ll decrease the the club a little bit i’ll I’ll swing faster the lofts are a little stronger by 4° but it’s just it’s the overall speed that I’m putting into the club that makes the ball jump more and then it goes higher for me because there’s 100 grams in the club mhm and it’s low so when I swing faster it gets up in the air way more and it just carries further but it doesn’t come out hot like it’s fast but I have a lot of rounds with them i have never seen anything like this ball supposed to go 7 iron 200 it’s a 200 yard or you know 200 yard swing for the 7 iron i have not seen anything come out 210 i’ve seen like 195 192 cuz I you know didn’t hit it really good but anything that’s kind of hit in the middle i’ve not seen 210 212 out of it yet okay not saying it’s not going to happen i just haven’t seen it and I’ve see it way more with you know I hit those for tech every now and again like in in 10 shots I’ll get two that are going to jump same thing with the P790s P770s through three and 10 are like whoa like so um yeah i would say they’re like really really consistent with ball speeds there’s no jumpers i haven’t seen it i haven’t seen it on the golf course especially like those you know ones I’ve mentioned you get a and you know the first cut you get a little bit of grass behind the ball you’re like “Oh shit.” Right i have never had that feeling of that ball jumping it’s coming out the way on it’s going to come out the way I interpret the lie and then the amount of force I’m putting into it they are just like I can’t explain because it doesn’t make sense to be honest with you but then you start understanding how they build it right it’s just forgiving it’s not hot they’re hot because they’re the loft but they need a little less loft because then they got so much weight low in the bottom yeah you know so you have to you have to offset those pieces or else you had like you know more law you’d hit these crazy stupid moon balls uh let’s see a couple more and then we’ll wrap up uh of of these two statements which one would describe you better you do you love to win or you hate to lose i hate to lose very interesting when I ask that question i don’t know what the hell it means i just It’s a cool question yeah i don’t like losing to any I don’t even like when my players lose but you know they’re going to lose yes part of the process winning takes care of itself i hate losing that was one of the things that I I I did not like too much about soccer and hockey is that I could play lights out and still lose because somebody else didn’t do their job mhm with golf I’m not going to win every week but I control everything i control my destiny and if I beat the golf course better than everybody else did then I have put myself in a position to win i just don’t I don’t like you’ll be successful if if you do the things you’re supposed to you be successful so I I hate losing i I don’t like that and then the last one in your opinion as far as golfers are concerned who’s the GOAT greatest of all time that’s a great question that’s a great question and I think an easy one i think it’s Tiger like I I like he might not have the majors that that that Nicholas had right um and I know like everybody kind of talks about that stuff in there but I think there are things that that happened that were out of his control to some extent and then some things that were in his control when he’s deciding to you know change coaches and do some of the shenanigans that he was doing you know some of that stuff is self-inflicted but I I I still think like if you look at everything as a whole and then you know I I still think that he did things that are are way more impressive than than Nicholas and I don’t think if Nicholas was in who he was in in this generation when Tiger was in this round I don’t think he could beat Tiger on a on a on a regular basis i just don’t i think Tiger had things that nobody else had it’s been fairly close tiger has the edge and it’s been largely demographic really anybody 50 and under pretty much has gone well I’d probably say 40 and under is heavily Tiger 40 to say 50 55 is split and then over 55 has gone Jack it’s been very demographic driven but I guess Tiger has a slight edge i I think a lot of it also is is like I never really got to see Jack play live but at the same time you know you look at things as a whole right and you have to kind of look at things kind of out of the box because moneywise right the money was different between the two generations and and Tiger Dill didn’t care about the winds the winds took care of themselves he was more worried about majors and doing stuff like that i remember an interview with Stevie Williams when he was there with Tiger that you know at the end of tournaments they had the prize list money a sheet where you’d sign the scorecards and he’d always say Tiger never looked at how much money he won where everybody else was always looking he didn’t care and I know that you know Tiger would do things kind of leading up to a major that he wanted to do in the major then he would apply it in tournaments before to get the tournament reps and stuff like that you know what I mean so that he would get comfortable to do it in the majors so I I I think that you know he could have potentially had more wins than he had right uh if he didn’t change coaches right if he didn’t get hurt right all the years that he lost right where you look at like Nicholas Nicholas didn’t change anything but there was no downtime or rebuilding time for him whereas Tiger had too much of it in my opinion i think I would agree i don’t know why i know he wanted to own his swing but yeah you look at Tiger and like you start to see some of the transgressions he had outside of golf that led to some of those issues you know you can see that but again it could have made Tiger tiger right chasing perfection right but but also could have been damning to him cuz like what if he never left Butch or let’s say he left Butch and he kind of kept things the way Butch had them or never went to Haney and then had that that time fairy where he was struggling and then got good and then you know got injured and then had to you know do it again like I if he did and stayed the course with you know like what Nicholas did and kind of just kept tweaking what he had without versus wholesale change he easily destroyed is I think right all of Nichols’s records in terms of the majors yeah I think a lot of people are in line with that be hard to argue that that’s why I said like I I wouldn’t because I think anybody who would say no you start to kind of explain it like that and like you apply some basic logic to the equation like I think everybody talked to was like yeah you’d write he’d more he’d destroy so then you have to give it to him in that sense cuz that would have been he is better but he also had issues cuz like if you look at any like professional athlete not even in just golf but like you know pitchers and hitters and things like that like most people don’t overhaul what they do when they get there he did it a few times right multiple times so it’s like mayor like that’s kind of crazy to do but I guess I guess in some way shape or form it kept his interest yeah that’s the thing like you don’t know unless unless you know him personally you know you don’t know what the heck was going through his head to to want to go and and change that or you know maybe he thought that the Hanky Haneies ring would be better off or was there a falling out between Butch and you know he’s very dominant i don’t want any part of butch and me like screw him like you don’t know inside that circle yes in in the same fashion Mickelson if you tried to curb the way Mickelson played aggressive he maybe he wins more you know everyone says if he would have played more conservative he would win more majors well you can maybe say that but now it’s not as much fun for him or he doesn’t you you can’t just rewire somebody’s brain and so it it it is what we’re left with what it is and they’re both great and it’s not you it’s sad to see them both kind of out of the picture now um but we’ll have somebody else that’ll do something great that you know that’s just a cycle of Yeah I think so too but I I don’t know about that one i I I think at age generation like the younger kids kind of coming up I don’t think they want to sacrifice the amount of sacrifice that Tiger had to do the practice and the hours of practice to do that i think these guys know that I can make a lot of money hitting a little white ball around and still enjoy life right so it’s more about how much money I can make than it is the legacy of the winds and all that other stuff that’s just me yeah societal shifts can alter that i think if we have a societal shift and let’s just say that for random example that the money on the PJ tour is not the next uh TV contract is let’s say it’s cut in half or even more and now it’s becomes more about wins the way it might have been in the 60s i I I think that there could it would be let me put it this way it’d be very very interesting to see that the next generational talent that comes and and challenges what Tiger did that would be very I mean I’m sure you and I are going to be very gray already a little gray but be very gray when that happens but it’ll be very very exciting to watch yeah and again like I think it takes somebody unbelievably special because I saw something the other day of what Scotty Sheffller would have to do to catch Tiger it’s crazy as much as he’s doing he’d have to ramp it up you see that it’s like do you really want to go and do that that’s the million-dollar question like what what would be the like what’s going to be the endg game to the equation right do I want to give up everything for that or can I have some nice balance between sport and life right and then still make a hell of a lot of money hitting a little white ball around a golf course with somebody else carrying my bag cuz I I will say outside of the injuries and probably not being able to do what he wants physically anymore outside of playing golf just enjoying life he’s got to hurt like hell when he gets up in the morning oh yeah i can’t but I mean I feel it a little bit it’s like oh my god I couldn’t have done what he’s done i I would say that he gets his life his he just looks happier when he plays with with Charlie in the the was it the PNC i think he just look he looks like he enjoys himself more he doesn’t have that edge that you need to have to play at that level that he did and I think like I think we all go through it like anybody who knows me at a young age man like I I I wanted to tear you apart on the pitch and I I I took that mentality you know to to the golf aspect of it but like you give me a choice now to go play golf or to go help one of my players on the golf course or in here like I take option B all day right it it’s no longer about me it it’s about the players getting to the level that they want to get to right so like I think Tiger is in that aspect as well because he knows his body can’t do it so he he knows that he can’t put the time effort and energy into it and then even if he did what’s the what’s the payoff or or the is the payoff trying to get Charlie to where Charlie wants to get to yes right so to me like I think Tigers where where I’m at to some extent it’s about passing the torch it’s about helping the next player and getting them to their goals and then helping the next player to their goals and the next player to their goals what uh you got anything coming up you got schools you’re teaching you speaking anywhere at section events or anywhere else you lectures or book coming out any of that fun stuff people have asked me about a book i don’t know maybe at some point I will i don’t know to be honest with you um thought about writing a book i don’t really speak much at the PGA because I’m not in the PGA so I I don’t get those invites i’ve been asked to speak once and I went and did it in Michigan um and even the person in charge when we were at lunch I think he asked me for my PGA number like “Yeah I’m not going to PGA.” He’s like “What i’m not the PGA.” He’s like and then he looked over at the two people who asked me to go i go “Yeah I never told them I was PGA either.” I go “If you want me to talk to him that’s fine i’ll just go back home i don’t really care.” But Arm is not in the PGA so I don’t know what they’re getting their pennies in a bunch about well sorry but like I never lied they know I’m not in the PGA that’s how PGA to be an expert i mean there’s plenty of them out there yeah i don’t speak much no nobody ever asked so if they would ask then then I I would do it a little bit more what else would you ask that you got anything you got camps coming up some camps coming up um that uh I’ll have that I that I kind of do here and there i don’t do them too too too often um especially in the summer cuz like teaching and then my training program and then trying to get kids on the golf course um so I I kind of treat my place like more of a private academy so for that like I I try to reserve things more for members but yeah I got some um I call them intensives right because I like a lot of one day two days long long days and it it’s very small group so it’s like usually three people with me and like we work hard at it this isn’t like your typical golf camp where kids are running around having a you know a blast and stuff like that so it’s a little bit more reserved for players who are more serious about getting better right versus kind of mom and dad are working and the kids got to go do something but they got to go to work um so yeah I have some of those coming up and then uh we’re doing some golf schools in July August September people can sign up for those on your website the intensives are on my website um the golf schools that will be posted as well uh as I get a little bit closer so yeah there’ll be some golf schools in uh and tell tell it I’ll have the oneclick links in the in the summary but tell everyone where they can follow your website social media etc yeah so uh the website would be www.dennisalesgolf.com and then I do some stuff on Twitter and I go sports with that stuff but all my social media handles are the same it’s just a sales golf um and then I would say like I do more stuff on Instagram and then I have my little hiatus every now and again where I just get it just gets too time consuming where I don’t post anything and then I’ll kind of get back on it uh again so I might do something like that for a little bit i I don’t know we’ll see how that I just do it to keep it fun i always keep in mind when I do stuff with this show is when I get bogged down and my brain just gets locked up i I always ask myself what would this look like if it was simple and then I’ll do that ju just to keep something going like in your golf game when it’s when your swing’s off or something just okay how do I get the ball somewhere over there do do that because it’ll come back but for now how do I keep this simple and if you can’t find an answer then then you’re good yeah yeah agreed Dennis i appreciate it it’s been great i um I was like most at first i just said “Well he’s just anti-establishment in golf.” And then I followed your stuff and I was proven wrong and then after sitting down with you today I was really proven wrong so I’m glad I got this chance to do so and look forward to connecting with you again thank you for having me and hopefully people listen to this they’ll realize that I’m not very anti-establishment exactly no you’re just a truth like I said just like everybody else likes to voice theirs i voice mine right i think you’re a truth seeker is what I I would I would agree and that’s why like you know I am very interested because I’ve done enough with what I can do and what I have with my you know the calculated ground reaction for stuff in gears right um but I am going to get some plates which one I’m going to go to I don’t know yet haven’t quite decided uh you know between the two that I’m that I’m looking at which ones that that I’m going to go with um but like I said I found my work around to make it righties and lefties in here without having a lot of work to do so that was a little bit more entertaining for me uh in terms of putting it in here like I’ve had the money sitting in my account for like four years now I think yeah yeah so I’m either going to spend it or I’m going to go on that or I’m going to spend it someplace else so I I do want force plates um I want to play around with it a little bit more i have my ideas that like I said like I want to kind of dig a little deeper into like I said like Roby was just like “How the hell do you do that?” And she’s like “I know how to move right?” So for me to continue with what I want I think I need some force plates for me to kind of play around with some stuff a little bit deeper so I can combine now like you know sheer forces and things like that with my gears with my shaft with the ball so I can kind of test more of my theories and and patterns out because again I guess what you can measure is kind of what I’ve said the whole time you know moving 30 selling plates back and forth all day between righties and lefties is not something I’m very interested in doing at my age right so my workaround has kind of got me happy cuz now all of a sudden I go “Okay now right.” So and like I’ve had new turf for this room now sitting in the other side for a little while and people like “When are you going to do that?” I go “I haven’t decided if I was getting force plates.” And then I just like “Have you decided yet?” I’m like I just don’t know which ones I’m going to get now i go but somebody will win the lottery when I pick because people are going to be like oh my god he’s got force plates now mr anti Force plate guy’s got force plates i’m like yep you’re going to break the internet when you do that you’re going to break the internet yeah yeah yeah and then you know I might step on some stones afterwards right cuz like some people might not like what I’m going to say but you know now you can’t say that I don’t have them at a minimum it will continue the discussion towards the goal of everybody getting better yeah i don’t think I don’t think anybody can argue that uh even if they disagree with you it’s like well Dennis will push the conversation and and in the end it will everyone can listen in uh and everyone’s going to benefit from it yeah and like that’s that’s the goal right the goal is for the golfer right to make sure that you know we had a little private conversation earlier that the goal is about the golfer right it it’s about helping them it’s about trying to get what I would just say is real information versus some of that influencer kind of gibberish nonsense that I never see in gears right um you know I feel like I’m very smart and I think that the next piece to kind of keep pushing that kind of envelope is to to squash the nonsense well you’ll have fourth plates like uh kind of sort of do right um I I’ll squash that bug real quick right because then I will have them now what are you going to say i know how to move why don’t you show me your swing why don’t you do what I can do right uh and then we can have a real conversation but since you can’t maybe you should listen a little bit more cuz not only can I do it lefty I can do it righty so I think that has a lot of merit to what I teach right again because if you can’t show it can you really do it or can you know is it really right like so I can do anything I want change swings instantaneously righty lefty i can create speed not speed i think how to create speed is a lot different than what people are kind of teaching and and I quite don’t agree with some of the stuff that they’re teaching in terms of the speed pieces i think they’re missing some important keys and then like I said I need some ground force data stuff to kind of kind of push back against some of the stuff well how do you know because you don’t have any ground force plates now i’m going to push back and then I’m going to push back because I’m also not buying the stupid cheap ones so then I’m going to be like “Oh so you have the cheap ones that missing a lot of information and you’re giving me [ __ ] they’re talking to you okay?” You know cuz I don’t I don’t buy anything it’s got to be really good right um and then the other day I was talking to the Gears guys that’s how that started that conversation cuz what do you they’re looking at releasing Maris uh soon i had Michael on about a year and a half ago he said it would be about two years to that soon so I need to get another two cameras is what they are suggesting and I might get a third because they’re talking about when you go to Marcus there’s got to be certain cameras in certain angles so I might uh I might get more than I got eight now so I’m going to look at getting you know 10 to 12 i want to make sure that I if I’m going to do it I have enough cameras to make sure that it’s about as accurate as possible and then the more cameras you have the better the capture is already with already the the markers and like I don’t have any issues because how big my room is or the the cameras are positioned really really well so I don’t lose anything that’s the nice thing about having a really big room so I kind of learned that early on before I got my gear system right no bad so um but they did say the other day like if I’m new you can put two more cameras up so I’m going to put two cameras along the back wall and then when they go markerless uh they were talking about the need of having a camera positioned slightly different from up top i don’t want to pull the top cameras down i’m going to just add more cameras into the mix so that’s what I’ll do i’ll just add more cameras into the mix but um for me like I said all the technology that I’ve picked is because I I think it’s the best right i’m not bringing anything into my place that I don’t think there’s something else better i love my Sackman i love my GC quads i think they’re really good i have no desire for that IO i have no desire for the overhead ones i think there are slight issues with it in my opinion to some of the data and how it sees things i like my Sam Lab i’ve got a capto i’m on the fence about getting and I’ve been on the fence for a while now about getting the quint still don’t really think I need a Quint yet or the things that I that I think are a little bit more important in the grand scheme of things um but if I want to buy one I’ll buy one of those too but like I said like just haven’t seen the need and then for me like I said like I think Sam is really good and then I got my Capto so I need to go take something to the golf course cuz the Sam’s just too damn bloody big to being on the golf course with me i like the capto stuff and then I know that is that the Vertex stuff that that they have out i think that’s pretty interesting as well this is the sensor that goes on the bottom of the pod and then eventually that’s supposed to talk to the same pot lab right so when that comes out then I’ll kind of look at a little bit of that stuff cuz that’ll be fun because then you could collect some data with people playing and then the reports would be very similar between Sam and that so that’s that’s interesting to me versus the captain which is very nice but like the data they don’t talk so it’s like very different so you got to understand how their XYZ stuff and all their graphs and what they’re doing is is like but I do like the capto as well but like my preference is Sam i like Sam you got it all yeah you have to i think like if you want to be what I what I’m doing and keep everything in house like I think that’s a necessity and again for me right and and then for what I want what I want to provide right i I’ve always wanted to provide kids the same level of tech and service that four players get right so I’m not skipping out and with launch monitors and buying cheaper stuff and then I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it but I don’t want cheaper stuff in here right because I could have easily just not bought the tractor not bought the you know the GC quads and going like some of the other launch motors i’m not going to mention names that are out there that are are less in cost right i’m not interested in that stuff if I’m bringing something in it’s cuz it’s really good right and it’s the same thing like when I bring in the clubs the manufacturers that I have is you know I’ve tested them i like what they have right i think it’s good quality right i don’t need 40 million freaking manufacturers in here they all make the same stuff to some extent for the the level of golfer right just a low medium high handicap right i don’t need 30 manufacturers in here i just need a few and then I pick and choose with stuff that I bring in from each manufacturer um so that that’s kind of like what I like i like trying to provide for the golfers who come here is is my thing you’re going to get like a core level experience lower level equipment um that players are getting when they go to their manufacturers that’s what I’m trying to provide here for my kids you know for the adults that come here and and they seem to really be you know liking that kind of experience right you’re doing a great job anything else comes out like force plates I figured out my my my walkabout about how to do that stuff you know that that that’s coming too it’s just going to be no matter which company I’m going to use dennis uh hang out just a bit everybody thanks for tuning in and we’ll check you’all next time yes hey great great thank you so much for having me