NBA Finals 2025 Preview: Pacers vs Thunder – Depth, Defense & X-Factors Analyzed!

Get ready for an in-depth NBA Finals preview as Cal Lee and Warren Shaw break down the unexpected showdown between the Indiana Pacers and Oklahoma City Thunder! In this episode of The Baseline NBA Podcast, we analyze how two of the league’s deepest, best-constructed teams defied the odds to reach the Finals. From smart roster moves, elite coaching, and the evolution of Tyrese Haliburton and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, to the X-factors and defensive matchups that will decide the championship, we cover it all. Whether you’re a die-hard fan or just love great basketball, this is the Finals preview you can’t miss!

0:00 – Intro: The Unexpected NBA Finals
2:26 – How Pacers & Thunder Proved the Doubters Wrong
5:49 – Smart Team Building: No Luxury Tax Teams
7:20 – Market Size vs. Basketball Quality
9:45 – Coaching, Depth, and Bench Impact
11:29 – Offense vs. Defense: Who Has the Edge?
14:33 – Playoff Runs Compared: How Each Team Got Here
16:23 – Key Defensive Matchups & Strategies
18:48 – Turnovers, Pace, and Transition Offense
21:23 – SGA vs. Pacers’ Backcourt: A Tactical Breakdown
24:12 – Cross-Matching and Rotational Depth
25:45 – Halliburton, Siakam, and the X-Factors
28:10 – OKC’s Defensive Switchability
30:18 – Rainmakers & Role Players to Watch
32:35 – Execution, Basketball IQ, and Mistake-Free Play
33:45 – Can Pacers Stop SGA?
37:00 – Non-Star Rainmakers: Who Steps Up?
39:47 – Predictions: Who Wins and Why?
44:14 – Coaching Chess Match & Final Thoughts
45:26 – Outro: Why You Should Watch This Finals

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This is the baseline discussing the hot button topics of the NBA. Welcome everybody. You’re tuned to the baseline. Cali warshaw discussing the hot button topics of the NBA. And we are finally here. The table is set. NBA finals is now upon us and it will be the Indiana Pacers taking on the Oklahoma City Thunder. And I am sure the NBA pundits uh those who are about the big ratings uh when it comes to watching NBA playoff basketball, NBA finals basketball, sports entertainment are just shrugging their shoulders and are just kind of like WTF. But you know what, Sean and I, we here for it. And I’m pretty sure that if you were watching the whole NBA playoffs run for both of these teams respectively, you would be here for it as well too. And it’s only app propo if we come to this point of the of the of the NBA season. It’s culminated that it arguably would be the two best playing teams that are going into the NBA finals and not simply because of the names. Let me go ahead and wrap the red carpet to my right-hand man. www.shawsw.net bigunipc. My name Mr. Warshaw repping out of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. What’s good, my brother? That smirk on your face is telling me that you about about it. So, I’m I’m supposing that we’re going to feel good about our discussion in previewing the NBA Finals. I just love basketball and I love the surprises that this NBA season has has given us and bestowed upon us for what I’m calling the unexpected NBA Finals. And and that’s not to be dismissive in any way. I just think, you know, the betting odds makers did not have Indiana and OKC as your NBA finalists. Like just there just it just didn’t happen. So the Indiana Pacers have gone on to, you know, really prove me wrong, you know, in a variety of ways over the course of the season and it’s fun. Like I’m excited about, you know, their opportunities here. So uh I just listen, I’m just excited to talk basketball. The NBA finals are upon us. It’s been a long long and very interesting and peculiar season. And I think there’s this app propo, if you will, that we’re getting something that we didn’t expect as the NBA finals here in in mid June. Look, I you you’re my boy, right? We’ve been doing this for quite some time. And I don’t want to be labor our conversation because I do want the attention to be on the things that we are looking forward to with regards to this matchup, which I really think is about as intriguing a matchup as you will probably get over the last five years as far as the dynamics of what these two teams bring to the table. But I I know that you’ve been saying, “Hey, you know, they proved me wrong.” Look, you just weren’t a believer in the Indiana Pacers and the the makeup of this team in comparison to what we essentially have said were among the better teams. But what I am appreciating about what the NBA has done through the course of this year and what we’re actually seeing with the implementation and the the way that things have changed and evolved, they want there to they they want parody, right? And while a lot of people are poo pooing the idea of it, this is why you want the parody and you want the parody kind of as a precursor. You want it, you know, reflective in what we’re seeing as you’re going through that process of watching an NBA season. I don’t think you would have just instantly said the Indiana Pacers given what they showed us at the beginning of the season to what they looked like at the end of the season with minimal changes. It was more of like it was a wakeup call, right? So, I I’m not going to sit there and and and let you just basically be like, “Yo, Shaw, you know, yeah, that’s right. You were completely off on it or whatever the case may be.” They had a lot of proving to do, right? Because I think a lot of people had a right to feel like this was kind of an overrated team or maybe they overachieved because they just did not come out looking like the team that surprised us last year. And it’s not like we haven’t seen that before. Now, with all that being said, we were kind of questioning whether or not OKC was that team, right? Because they underachieved last year, right? People didn’t buy into them being that number one seed. They come out the gate, they are among the best teams going and they hit a stump in the road a couple times when they dealt with the Cleveland Cavaliers. People believed that the Cleveland Cavaliers were were the best team, right? When we saw that matchup earlier this year and we saw the Cleveland Cavaliers is basically take them to the tool shed at the land and then OKC showed us their resil resiliency. They showed us that they learned from their mistakes. They learned from the losses that they took. They came back and they just basically put a spanking on Cleveland. And then we said to ourselves, “Oh wow.” Now the question is, are the Boston Celtics, you know, in a position where they can actually repeat? Because it just looks like if OKC is that kind of team, are the Celtics really about being that type of team to defend their championship? So there were so many storylines going on, Shaw. And this is what I love that we have gotten it to this point where we can truly say, you know what, when it was all said and done, when we wipe all of this down and you take off all the injuries and all the excuses, the Pacers were the one of the hottest teams in the second half of the season and they carried it into the playoffs and they won the games that mattered the most to get them to this point. the Oklahoma City Thunder to for them to be as viable as a finals uh participant, they had to go through a roadblock. And that roadblock was one of the former champions in the Denver Nuggets. I think that series proved to us that if they go out and do what they were put together to do, they would be one of the best teams in the NBA and would be one of the participants in the NBA Finals. Yeah, he said a lot and I actually want to throw it back to, you know, the aspect of these two teams doing what they needed to do. Keith Key Smith, friend of the show, um, and a lot of I think of the Smarter NBA podcast, you ones that are not just kind of like clickbait or the case to be, they’ve h latched on to this tweet by Keith Smith where he indicated that this is going to be the first NBA finals in the luxury tax era that both teams were not luxury tax players. So, this is smart team building, drafting, coaching, player development, all of the things. And none of these teams, and it’s not, they won’t be this way forever, but as of this NBA Finals, the none of these teams, neither of these two teams are luxury taxpayers. That is amazing. And that is amazing. And I think, you know, OKC and Indiana, they they made really smart trades. Obviously, OKC getting SGA and the Paul Paul George trade. This is the Paul George angle that a lot of NBA Twitter is hanging on to as well too. These are two former two former Paul George teams as well. Uh but then the Hallebert and Fabona trade, you know, from Indiana. Then they get Seakum the next year later, whatever the case may be, like really well constructed teams who deserve to be here and I’m not taking anything away from them anymore at all in any aspect or or or or any way form because I love I love basketball. I love that these two teams represent basketball and while it’s not the air quote sexiest finals in terms of market size or whatever the case may be, these are the two best teams standing and that’s what you always want. Listen, for all these people out there that love, you know, to to inject, you know, quote unquote, the the the trash talking aspect of what we what we do. And what I’m what I’m talking about is you look at these teams and they don’t exhibit quote unquote the star power that I think people are trying, you know, to elevate when we we attach ourselves to the NBA and the marketability of the NBA. But look at these two teams, y’all. These are thorough breats, right? The Oklahoma City Thunder have proven that they can run with any team if they want to. Notice I said if they want to, but they don’t have to. They believe that they’re good enough that if you want to go half court, we can half court you. You want to go all out track meet, we can run with you and we’ll run with you 15 deep if we have to. Right? They’re players that showed up in this Western Conference Finals that you probably have not heard their names up until they got into the playoffs. And Dagenol and you know, you can clearly tell that he’s elevated himself as a coach in what what when he is implementing and deploying the roster and what he needs his guys to go out and do and they’re going out and doing it. the Kase Wallace’s, the Kendrick Williams, these dudes, you don’t hear them all throughout the but he’s played them. He’s played them if you were paying attention to them and they found minutes. He found minutes for them. Critical situations where it was needed. Not about just giving guys a blow, not out of necessity or desperation, but out of the strategic aspect of what the OKC Thunder needed to do for them to win a game or win a series. And that to me, it speak volumes. And I give the same credit to Rick Carile when he felt like a matchup was not in his favor. Even if he had marginally playable guys, he still put them out there with confidence that they are doing something that is going to benefit them when it came down to closing out that series against the New York Knicks. And that to me is the kind of things you want to see coming into an NBA Finals where all of these components that you’re measuring up and trying to say who has the advantage of this, that, and the third. if it’s not being shown or implemented at any course through their run, it will always be a question mark and it will always probably be against them if it’s not being displayed at some point. Yeah, I think that’s another great point. These are also the two deepest teams left. Um and and that’s import that’s uh I think on purpose, right? The these coaches went deep into their bench. They went deep into their bench all season long. They and in some cases they were forced, you know, Cadet and Hartinstein all missed injuries, you know, various times. I think J Jay Williams missed some time as well too. Both Jay Williams actually, you know, in a case. Nay Smith missed time. Nemhard missed time. So, I think they the Pacers and the Thunder understood the need for a deep bench, but ultimately that allowed them to be trustworthy into those guys 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12. You know, Thomas Ryan three threes and, you know, in the close out game of game six, you know, basically getting out of the doldrums of the Miami Heat bench where he just wasn’t getting any run and he hits big threes in essence that kind of send the tide, especially in that first half. Like, listen, I I I respect the roster construction. I respect the organizations that are in this NBA finals and I think I’ll piggy back off you what you said one more time. You know, be damned what any all the pundits are saying. Be damned what NBA fans are saying like, “Oh, this is going to be a boring finals. I’m not going to watch.” Cool. Don’t watch. I think you’re going to miss out on some great basketball. But if that’s your choice because you don’t have the air quote marquee guys or names that you’re used to, this is exactly what the NBA wanted. They wanted the aspect of trying to bring in new blood. And now having these small and mid-market teams in the NBA finals is an amazing situation. SGA is an MVP. Tyrese Tyler and all the aspects of whether or not he’s a lead guy and all the other stuff or whatever the case may be, is he overrated at this point. What more can you say? He’s made it to the NBA finals um with a team that is extremely well constructed, but is definitely built in his image and his likeness in terms of his leadership and getting getting the pace up and down up and down the court. Um go war based on NBA podcast our NBA finals preview. I mean, we were just right out the gate, we were just all about talking about it, right? You know, uh, forget a plug. You people know who we are. You know what we’ve been doing. We’ve been doing it all season long and for all 12 plus years, right? Like, we’ve been doing this, right? So, you know where to find us. You know where the catch is. Um, one thing and then, you know, obviously we’re going to, you know, drop into a quick break and then we’ll get into the into the gist of, you know, where where we think the keys to the game is, uh, you know, to who might actually have an advantage, may have a disadvantage, and then ultimately we’ll, you know, give our our picks. One thing that I think I’m really, really, really looking forward to, what what what has intrigued me about this series is the way that both of these teams are manufacturing their points. Okay, let right now like a lot of the really high-ended, wellrespected analysts are looking at this as an offensive versus defensive matchup, right? Like because the Indiana Pacers are the kind of team that can run up 130 points. But I want people to really understand the Oklahoma City Thunder is equally as well too. We’re are scoring north of 120 something points. And a lot of it comes down to what they’re forcing the other teams to not be able to do. And what we saw in this last series with the Indiana Pacers is they are finding ways for them to hit those quote quote unquote um uh those quotas, right, of them hitting those 120 points, but they’re doing it at the expense of the opposition’s mistakes, which is making them as equally a formidable team as the Oklahoma City Thunder. I think what it does now come down to is are the Pacers able to consistently do that to win four of seven games, right? Because I don’t think there’ll ever be a question about what OKC is capable of doing. They have been doing this and they do it with consistency. Now, there’ll be times where, you know, somebody cracks the Da Vinci code on the OKC Thunder defense and there are times where the OKC Thunder offensively get too kind of hung up on their own. But I want to see can the Indiana Pacers as equally reflect that same level of defensive intensity on a team that equals them when you look at the matchups and the way that they’re situated and how these these offenses are executed because to me that could very much be a tossup. And then it really comes down to basketball IQ, execution, and better shot selection and decision making, which I will say qu I question the Indiana Pacers a a lot more than I probably do the Oklahoma City Thunder. But I’mma leave that part for you Shaw to kind of kind of weigh in and chime in on because through there we’ll we’ll segue into where we see these X factors and the matchups and who probably has the advantage over who when it comes to the total roster and then giving our picks. Yeah. Well, I mean I think you know it’s a great it’s a great opportunity for us to understand the minations of all of these teams. So both these teams 12 and four you know getting into and I think the 12 and four are look very different obviously in terms of how we got here. OKC as you said before and as we’ve said forged by fire with the Denver Nuggets in that series while the Pacers more or less have been able to I’d say truly dominate almost every one of their match of six games very close six games and a game one probably turned that series around for them ultimately win the New York series or whatever but you know they they haven’t been they haven’t faced elimination yet right and I I think you know that’s that’s just a different situation than than OKC um but again we still get here with 12 and four records both teams who are offensively capable, defensively capable in the end or really turned up the defense on this Knicks team and has forced a lot of turnovers. And that’s something that I think when we get when we come back from the break, something that will be a great part of the conversation to kind of figure out, you know, who’s more reliant on their defense to turn into offense um or who should be ultimately and who will be able to just kind of be able to sustain their normal offense, right? you know, can they run the half court offense and and execute in a way that will be efficient enough in essence to get W’s in the series. So, cannot wait to dive into that conversation. But again, two teams 12 and four, very different different looks, but same results here. NBA finalist, you’re tuned to the baseline. Cali Warren discussing the hot button topics of the NBA. Our uh special edition of the baseline NBA Finals preview, Indiana Pacers, Oklahoma City Thunder. Coming up, Sean and I will break down some of those nuances, where the advantages play for other team, and then ultimately got to pick a winner, right? So, you don’t want to miss it here on the baseline. Time to break it down. [Music] We are back. Cali Warren Shaw, baseline, NBA podcast, NBA Finals preview, Oklahoma City Thunder, Indiana Pacers. And just before we hit our break, Shaw, you alluded to one of the things that I think was really important is which team is going to have to heavily rely on their defense to allow them more opportunities for shots. um allow them to force the other team to really appreciate the amount of shot attempts that they will have to be efficient in order to maintain and hang. And I think it’s a really great way to kind of look into, you know, have the Indiana Pacers caught up. we can safely say throughout the course of the run for the Oklahoma City Thunder, their defense among really and I’m sure that there will be, you know, metrics that will speak to it on historical levels. I don’t want to go as far as to say they were among they are the greatest defense that’s ever played. I I’m not really buying that because I think when you look at who you’re playing against, the level of the competition that you’re playing against, I think that’s that speaks volumes. I will say that they are definitely one of the most effective defensive teams that we have seen in recent history with the way that all of them have had an intricate part in being able to affect those numbers. The Oklahoma City Thunder without question to me would be the team that offers the most consistency to come out and play defensive intense basketball for 48 minutes through and through. And even though the results may not speak to saying, “Okay, you’re holding a team to 70 points, 80 points, it’s the quality of shot and the amount of opportunities they’re giving themselves in order for them to beat the other team that I think resonates with me. And it’s something that I wonder this series that we saw with the Indiana Pacers and the New York Knicks. While the Indiana Pacers definitely improved as far as what they show, excuse me, defensively, I wonder if whether or not a lot of it as well too just came down to who they were playing against and the fact that they weren’t attentive to details and not making themselves turn the ball over. So, I wonder now with this Oklahoma City Thunder team, do they nullify that aspect with the Pacers? Yeah. So, I’ll throw a couple numbers at you. Um, these are, you know, two the obviously the two last teams in the NBA. Uh, and it this the numbers are going to skew towards them because of just kind of like where they’re at. But Oklahoma City really relies on defense and defense in essence turned into offense as I was saying before the break. So roughly 24 points per game in the playoffs are they’re getting based off of turnovers. Like they’re scoring those points off of turnovers. 24 of those points. Indiana conversely getting 19 points off off of turnovers. So what I’m interested to see here is the the fast breaking style of Indiana while their pace hasn’t necessarily reflected everything that we think to be true about them because right now they’re at a pace of only 99 uh throughout the course of the playoffs. OKC is actually playing at a faster pace in the playoffs at roughly at like a 100.1. But in theory, Indiana is running up and down. Will that negate the opportunities for OKC in essence to swipe, to strip, you know, to really stand guys up, if you will, to double and, you know, come from the weak side and strip Miles Turner if you think he’s going to go over that right shoulder or whatever the case may be. That’s something I think the Indiana Pacers and Carly will will look at heavily. Do they really need to turn it up? Right. But sometimes you can play it too fast and playing too fast can als ob obviously lead to turnovers. So they may they won’t be live ball turnovers maybe in in essence which OKC off obviously really thrives off of as well too. But are they throwing the bounds out throwing the ball out of bounds so to speak and now all of a sudden not getting as many possessions. That’s something that I think will be a really really determining factor into how this playoffs or this finals will actually finish out. Although conversely though, Indiana has been able to pick things up and I think with Nemhard and Nesmith playing as well as they are at the point of attack, are they going to be able to force SGA to kind of give up the ball, right? And then will be will guys be available in the passing lanes. This is a different series for Miles Turner. You know, I don’t know if he’s if it’s if it’s more of the Heart and Stein or if he’s going to be more on Chad and then also OKC likes to play, you know, kind of like Chet at the five sometimes and, you know, allow them to have more spacing, you know, with some of those smaller guys because they just they’re not worried about giving up things defensively. That’s where I’m just I’m just I’m so intrigued at the the crossmatching of what Indiana is going to do defensively here to see if they can still get a leg up in a defense that I think has been much improved from where they were in December and January. like this is a much different team than they were, you know, five months ago now. And will that be able to turn OKC over and turn fast points in in the favor of the Indiana Pacers? I want to be positive about the Indiana Pacers. Um, so I apologize to you, Shaw, and to anybody who’s probably going to be listening to this and thinking I’m like hating on the Pacers when I say this. Okay. I I I I I I I’m concerned that the matchup with the Indiana Pacers and the New York Knicks will give the Pacers this foolish idea that they can go out [Music] and defensively execute the way that they did with Jaylen Brunson and the rest of those guys. I don’t think you can get away with that with this version of what we see with the Oklahoma City Thunder. Now, I will say this. if Nemhart can hang with SGAA and if whether or not Nesmith is going to have the responsibility of handling SGA more or maybe handling Williams more cuz I I see that being more of a matchup where athleticism plays into Nmith kind of bodying up Williams a little bit more and forcing Williams to probably be more aggressive maybe take more shots only if Nemhart can hang with SGA. And and and this is why it’s such an intriguing matchup, Shaw. The way that SGA plays, the his ball handling skills are so dynamically different than Jaylen Brunson’s Shade Gillis Alexander, everyone is he’s the free throw merchant, all that other stuff. I want people to really understand and pay attention. He is the kind of guy who is much more decisive about going to where he wants to go in a north south’s fashion that that will put Nem Hart and whoever is going to be on him on their heels. And if the Oklahoma City Thunder is moving like they are, Hartinstein, Homegrren, all those guys, that means that the Pacers have to be attentive. I mean, to the last person moving and cutting because when SGA gets inside, there is not a lot of room for error. It’s not a question of, you know, fading and getting fouls. It’s knowing that if SGA has gotten past who you have as your primary defender, all hands have to be on that. It’s even Hallebertton. And I’m not saying Hallebertton is a compromise defensively, but all of these guys can wind up getting cheap fouls because SGA will deliberately get to a place that will v that will make your defense vulnerable. And that’s what I’m intrigued by because there is a maturation process that gets elevated now because you’re not dealing with the same kind of backcourt play that you just finished playing in this six game series with the Indiana Pacers. Well, it’s interesting because, you know, I’m going to not jump from your point, but I think when we talked about it in the first half of the show, the overall depth of this, right? So the depth is also going to come in the cross matching and then how much do the true starters play and do those cross matches take effect right like who does Hardenstein really guard you know when in the Indian on the Indian side if it’s Turner awesome right but is Sakum a great um sorry is is Ched a great match up for Seakum I don’t I don’t know right so I think that might be more Jay Dub who probably takes that assignment on on a more regular basis and then does that allow Chad to hang out on like a knee smith per se like you know what I mean So those are things, but then remember they’re going to play a majority of those guys. So who which minutes are really going to are we going to see in terms of the cross matching? So when Tophin is in the game for Indiana, who is he guarding, right? You know, unfortunately Jarus Walker looks like he’s going to be out for for this final series, right? But is now does that force you to play Thomas Bryant who wasn’t looking so great in the first part of the Knicks series? And then is that something OKC can hunt on the other side? So and the Thunder conversely, they feel like all their guys can guard everybody, right? They don’t care if he’s some losses out there. You know, Caruso, as stout as he is as a defender, he’s obviously very switchable. That’s where I think OKC seems to have the advantage, especially when you go to the bench because once you get past that first that front five, so to speak, now I think the defensive side for Indiana switches towards OKC’s favor because I just don’t think they’re as versatile defensively, although they are very versatile offensively. Watch if Dageno unleashes Caruso on Hallebertton. I feel like Tyrese Hallebertton’s gameplay to me is so important. You know, one of the things that was interesting, you know, with Pascal Seakum winning the Eastern Conference Finals MVP, I thought that that was I I thought it was apppropo. I thought it was necessary. Um, and if you’re the Indiana Pacers, you’re happy about that. You need an aggressive Pascalakum. I know everybody is focused on, you know, the the the the rising stardom of Tyresese Hallebertton and his clutch playmaking, but you’re talking about playing a sevengame series hopefully against the Oklahoma City Thunder, right? If you’re going to have any chance of winning, you need that version of Pascal Seakum that came out in games uh was it two, games three, two, I think two, four, and uh game six, right? You need that Pascal Seakkum. That Pascal Seakum is aggressive. That Pascal Seyakum creates matchup nightmares for the front court. That Pascal Seakum in transition is the kind of person that the Oklahoma City Thunder were hoping they weren’t seeing from Julius Randall in that series that they just came from who didn’t show that. Right. So, if you are the Indiana Pacers, you know how it is. Sometimes you got to nudge someone to be like, I I I I need to see the Hulk in you, bro. You know what I’m saying? I want I want to see you kind of Bruce Banner your way through this thing. And Pascakum could easily do that, but he just at times he disappears. He cannot afford to disappear in this series. He to me is the X factor that I think people really need to pay attention to because he is the one person on top and bottom end that can really affect first, second, and third levels of the Oklahoma City Thunder on both sides of the basketball. It doesn’t mean that he’s got to go out there and shot block or whatever the case may be, but rebounding, creating disruption, creating length, creating um a shot uh uh being a shot deterrent, it it that has to all come in play. And I’m not saying it’s only on Seak. What I’m saying is Seiakum’s energy and Seakum’s beak being included in that it to me is just so important if we think that the Pacers have an opportunity to win this series. Yeah. So I’ll counter only with the the notion of you know talking about OKC we haven’t really d dove into the SGA aspect of it yet but even sticking on the defense is like Dort so Dort has that opportunity to really you know try to DFC outcome I think at times alongside Jaylen Williams and that’s where I’m just I’m just very concerned about what OKC like their ability to consistently switch and throw guys and not worry about it not feel like they’re they’re getting like they’re they’re that they’re that they’re at a disadvantage just because this exfender is on them whether they’re smaller or not Caruso, door, Williams, it doesn’t really matter. Quase Wallace like they just will find guys and feel like you know what we can live with this and I think that’s where Indiana is going to be different. So while Seakcom has to play well, I think that’s not to say a given, but it’s kind of one of the, you know, sticking points of the series, I think it does become like, well, where else can Indiana get consistent play? Because if you feel like the main guys are going to struggle, you know, even even if it’s just efficiency, per se, maybe they’ll still get their numbers, but efficiently they may not, then that’s when Miles Turner comes into play. That’s when Aaron Nith comes into play. and the last what is it two three games of the series Benedict Matan coming off the bench you know you talk about a free throw merchant he would get to the line kind of that nauseium and was really been able to be really impactful so is that something you know Carl Allen Lacers can tap into offensively when their main guys presumably are going to really be facing a very a a tough sledding for the entirety of the series just because of okay switchability defensively. So, I’ve been looking for N Smith, Turner, and Mattherin to really really figure out ways to to um step in here, you know, and have some games. And that’s the beauty, I think, about the Indiana Pacers. It doesn’t mean they all have to go off at the same time, but can one of them have a good game and, you know, while the other one is like, “All right, tonight’s an off night, but D Smith pops like he did in game one, eight threes, which is obviously, you know, miraculous, but does he, you know, give you 17 to 18 and another night Turner’s, you know, giving you almost 28?” That’s where I think Indiana is really going to have to figure this out. Tophin played well in game six, especially in the second half. And I think that’s where I think the Pacers have some semblance of an understanding, but I don’t know if all their main guys are going to be able to go off in this series because I think OKC just so topheavy defensively. Yeah. Um, so real quick and then, um, Sean, I want you to kind of give me your take on who who are going to be the rain makers, you know, in this series. Like dudes that are just, you know, they’re looking they’ll probably have an opportunity really to go off. One of the things that I spoke about and I even, you know, we I kind of um mentioned this on on X platforms and stuff like that. Like there were times where, you know, watching the Pacers and the Knicks play was to me was just kind of unwatchable. Not because I didn’t like the teams because I technically don’t, but the reason why it was unwatchable was because shot selection and basketball IQ at times was just I, you know, I I just couldn’t understand it. Like I I guess it’s like neither one of these teams wanted to win. You cannot do that against this Oklahoma City Thunder team. you just you just cannot you have to be at the highest level of your understanding of the game and when a shot is a good shot and when a shot is not a good shot because you’re not going to be afforded too many opportunities to have those make or miss uh situations. Right. My concern here again what I’ve seen from the Oklahoma City Thunder is that these guys are are executing at a high level because they’re they’re reading and understanding the game. They they know and they understand the moments of, you know, when I should be guess basically getting two points or why I can go ahead and shoot that transition three. You know what I’m saying? Like they feel and understand where the momentum shifts and changes and if they if they roll the dice and take a risk on it, they’re confident in saying, you know what, we own that. That’s on us. But they like throughout the course of their playoff run. What’s impressed me about OKC Shaws, I’ve never looked at them with this level of saying, oh my god, like are you serious? is like this is exactly what you think you’re going to supposed to be doing like at at this moment in time as if like this is meant to h like you wanted this to happen like no like you’re you’re gifting the opposition a chance to probably win a game that they have no business winning. You know what I’m saying? And I felt that numerous times in the series against the Indiana Pacers where you work so hard you stole two games from the New York Knicks and yet your level of execution down the stretch you even almost gifted it back to them. And I’m just like, you cannot do that against a team that really understands who they are, who they had to go through to get to this point. I’m just saying like, if I want to buy into the Indiana Pacers making this a series, they can’t pull the kind of stunts that they were pulling in this last series in the Eastern Conference Finals. No. And I and I get that, right? They they know that they’re going to be the underdogs and that they’re going to have to play not perfect basketball, but a mistakeless basketball. I think it’s just Don’t use mistake free. season. Yeah, I mean it has to be limited because I think you know you have to understand the beast you’re going up against. OKC is going to turn you over, right? But just how many of those are like as I said in the beginning, how many of those are live ball turnovers, you know, versus like all right, you know, shot clock violations or whatever the case may be, you know, or throwing the ball out of bounds, per se, you know, I I don’t want the Indian payers to become um timid in this series at all. I think they need to inherently need to be who they are and try to run the basketball and not go up against OKA studies, you know, set defense on a regular basis. But again, you have to do that with a certain level of of care and caution. And I think that’s where the depth of this team really does kind of come into play that gives them more than a punches chance and I think some of the oddsmakers are going to say in this situation. What I want to kind of like switch gears to real quick though is just your thought on Indiana and their ability to stop SGA. like what are you looking for for SGA in this series to to be brilliant and that could ultimately lead to an OKC championship? If if if SGA believes that he can basically beat Indiana’s backcourt off the dribble, then ride that until they show you differently. I mean, literally ride that because I think it just opens up the floodgates. Let’s remember too, right? Like again, the that the Indiana Pacers have had more of a Wolfpack mentality defensively, which I think has afforded them the opportunity. And you could also make the argument in some respects that the New York Knicks kind of kind of gifted that for them, like baited themselves because of their style of offense. They have way too many halfcourt oriented guys, weren’t really good in spacing, and then when those opportunities came for them to make those half court shots, it was in the hands of people that just were inconsistent. I don’t think you’ll have that kind of problem if I’m OKC. But it’s all predicated on the aggressiveness of SGAA. And when I say aggressiveness, I’m saying he doesn’t have to take 20 shots in order for that to kind of happen. It’s all about if he’s beating his man. Um, one of the things that I was impressed by that I thought would have given the Minnesota Timberwolves a chance in that series was the level of aggressiveness that you saw from um uh from um Alexander from Walker Alexander and then also from Anthony Edwards. There was a level of intensity of really getting up in SGA and forcing him to dance with the ball more rather than moving north south. If SGA has made up his mind to go north south it and and he gets past one the first defender or maybe even gets around a screen to the second defender that’s putting guys like Seakum, guys like Turner on their heels. And I’m not saying that they’re great defensively, but it will marginalize what they can give you defensively because they’re not great front court stretch out extensive defend defenders once the guard gets past their back uh their their own their teammates back court. So that’s that’s where I’m concerned. But if I get an aggressive SGA, I mean, he can basically have lunch all all day long in the paint with the uh with the Indiana Pacers because he can be that kind of guy if he chooses to. Yeah, I think the foul battle is going to be something that we need to watch, especially on the Indiana side. You know, OKC is known for their physical defense and they seemingly kind of get away, you know, with some things here and there. Um, but conversely, can you make SEA work? Can you run him through multiple screens without them being legal, right? You know, I can see Seakaman Turner trying to do something and then, you know, sticking a leg out too far and then getting called for those illegal screens, but you got to run, you know, SGA around on the defensive side and make him work and, you know, maybe that will hopefully tire him out on the offensive side where he’s maybe not as potent. I don’t know that that will actually happen, but I think it’s something they can attempt to do, you know, um, at different points throughout the course of the series because I’d much rather lose this series if I’m Indiana, you know, with Jason Williams and Ched Homegrren and guys like that, you know, going off as opposed to SGA doing his MVP dance on me kind of throughout the course of a seven game series. So, they got to make work on the defensive side of the basketball as well. I think they have enough depth in guys in this where they be able to do that. Not necessarily great one-on-one guys. I don’t think Nemhard and Nith are these guys, you know, just try to take you off the dribble, per se. But again, you know, putting him putting in action with whoever he’s guarding because I think he’s going to be guarding probably the the lesser of the offensive uh, you know, stars if you for on the Indiana side, but you got to get him involved one way or the other. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. All right, Shaw. Um, real quick and then we have to make our predictions. Who is your rain maker for both the Pacers and for the Oklahoma City Thunder? Um, aside from the star players, the SGAAs and the Tyrese Halleberttons, who do you feel like has an opportunity to be a rain maker in this series? Yeah, I’m gonna go back to the the aspect of it’s two guys from the end really for me. Um, you know, and I don’t want to discredit what TJ McConnell has been able to do in terms of when he comes in and changes the pace for for the Pacers, you know, uh, as a backup point guard, but Turner should have a much better series here. Cadet and Hartinstein are not they’re not cat. And while you can say that might be good for some reasons, Cat decided that you know what Turner you cannot guard me on the perimeter like you you have to respect my jumper in a way but if I decide to put on the floor you have no hope. Chad and Hearnstein don’t have those types of chops at least not off the bounds. So I think Turner can have a more impactful series in this and then I think conversely on the on the other guy on the Indiana side too. I think as the aforementioned Mat which I don’t need to kind of relicate that too. So I think those two guys from Indiana have to play well. the Pacers are going to, you know, make this a long series. And then conversely for OKC, it’s not necessarily an offensive thing for me. I think they this can they can maintain the same level of defense with Caruso on the floor, when Case Wallace on the floor, like is the defense there’s there truly no drop off when you know the the Indiana offensive guys like the top ends and the match wins kind of come in. Can they still get that same level of defensive production not from their starters per se? So that’s where it’s like it’s it’s kind of a tale of two teams really where I think Indiana needs to figure out a way to tap in even more into their offensive chops which I think is going to be a tough defense while OKC needs to dig down into what they do best with their defense especially with some of their supplemental and auxiliary guys. Yeah, I like I like where where you were going with that one. I I’ll just throw in one because you you kind of already mentioned from the Indiana side. Um I’m going to go with Chad Homegrren for the Oklahoma City Thunder as a rain maker. I really believe that he has an opportunity one to extend um Mos Turner if he if Moss Turner has him um or maybe even Pascal Seakum. I think Chad Hung is moving quite you know nicely throughout the course of this NBA playoffs. He’s giving you a a few 20s something plus point per performances hitting the three and then also from a defensive perspective, bro, averaging two blocks per game essentially. Like I I just feel like if he is on one and he is really complimenting what we’re expecting to see from SGA and Jay Williams, that’s going to be a problem for the Indian Pacers. This is way too much firepower coming from all aspects, you know, every dynamic of of the Oklahoma City Thunder. All right. So, with that being said, Shaw, what you got? How many games? Yeah, I I’m struggling. You know, conventional wisdom and the oddsmakers says, you know, this could be a good series, but maybe not necessarily a long one, right? And I think you’d say maybe OKC in five um or six because you want to show respect to the Pacers or whatever. I don’t know, man. I’m just at my I’m at my tipping point. I’m tired I’m tired of doubting Indiana. I’m not so tired where I’m going to pick them to win the series, but I think they’re going to have a better showing in this than than many of the oddsmakers were giving them. So, I’m going to tip my toe in the waters here and say OKC in seven in a in a in an NBA finals, an unexpected NBA finals that we didn’t expect to be a classic. But I think Indiana’s going to show and prove in a way that many are probably still doubting them a little bit for. But I still got the Thunder winning the NBA championship, but I’m going to put OKC in. What about you? Yeah, man. You going to have me you going to be have having me on an island, man. You know what I’m saying? Where’s that dunk tank? Everyone’s gonna basically have me just swimming in the waters just by myself, right? Just Look, man. I I’ve I’ve been a fan of the Indiana Pacers as far as their resiliency, what they’ve shown. And I’m not going to I’m not going to poo poo what they’ve done to get to this point. I am going to say though, I don’t know if they’re going to be able to hang with this Oklahoma City Thunder team. I I just I’m just watching this team, bro. And you know, forget all of the the I know, you know, this is the first championship that, you know, they’re since the the KD Westbrook and Harden. No, no, forget all of that. They understand that this is their time. They understand that. I I I truly feel that they truly understand that. And I think if they don’t get in, you know, in their own heads, they know that they are really the better team in this in in this series. Uh, ultimately what they cannot afford to do is what the Knicks allow the Pacers to do. And I told you this, right? Do not let the Pacers take one on the road, right? Don’t let them get one in MSG because if you do that, it’s a wrap, right? And not only did they take one, they took it twice, right? They took them twice. Okay? Pacers are one of the best teams on the road. That being said, Oklahoma City understands this moment. They are not going to give the Indiana Pacers any level of needed oxygen except for what they can generate on their own. So, they’re going to have to work for it. They’re not going to sit there and, you know, be subject to the choke jobs or nothing like that. You’re not going to see that with this OKC theme. So, MAW, I I’m going to say OKC and six, but man, I really would not be surprised if it’s a gentleman’s sweep. I really would not be because to me defense wins championships and the Oklahoma City Thunder to me have proven throughout this playoffs their defense is for real against the teams that they have been playing against and I just don’t know Carl is going to have to pull out a masterpiece to get these guys to break what the OKC Thunder is basically been throwing out here so far in this NBA playoffs. I I have nothing I have no notes. I think five is where my heart really wants to go, but I just feel like Indiana. The only reason why I’m saying that is the key is the first two games in OKC. If the Indiana Pacers show that they will hang around, they will throw it right back at OKC, then this is going to be a long series. But if OKC goes out and does what they basically have done to teams in those first two games of holding their home court or against teams who are basically matched up like them, say like the Minnesota Timberwolves, this will be a quick series because it’s just such a it’s a tough hill to climb, man, when a team is locked in defensively. You don’t have the luxury of turn suddenly just figuring it out of how you’re going to basically stop them from doing what they were able to come out and execute that they’ve been doing all series long. And that’s why it’s not to buy him. What can ultimately happen, you know, in Indiana’s favor is if they can actually run Hartinstein off the court. They they’ve got to run him Exactly. They got to run him thin. They have to run him to the point where you’re forcing OKC to have to figure out offensively how to turn things up, which is out of their element. I’m not saying that OKC can’t, again, I’m not saying they can’t score, but what I’m saying is they know they don’t have to score 120 points for them to beat you. So, if you’re figuring out a way to push them to think that you got to score 120 points, you may actually have the edge. And we’ll see if the Indiana Pacers can do that. Yeah. Well, it’ be great to see two great coaches, you know, Dagonal and and Carlile. Um, two great point guards, elite guards and Hallebert and and SGA and role players and supplemental stars and Seakum and Jayd Dub and Chad and Homegrren and like there’s just there’s a lot of great story lines here. So fans move into this crank team basketball matchups of NBA finals that we have seen in the last seven years. And and I’m glad that one of these teams will deservely hoist the trophy for the first time, you know, in a either for the OKC Thunder or at all like the Indiana Pacers have not won an NBA championship, right? Yeah. Uh yeah, not not that I that I’m aware of it. Yeah. ABA since if they were ABA, right? Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, the Thunder don’t claim the Sonics Championship, so would be the first Thunder Championship for sure. Um, yeah, watch this series, fam. Like, just watch it and and and tap in. I think this could be a better better than expected, but, you know, maybe ultimately the outcome is predetermined, so to speak, but I I think the Spacers team is going to surprise some folks here in the semi-finals a little bit, too. Shout out to Hallebertton, man. And shout out to Hal’s dad a little bit, too. Yeah, absolutely. Welcome back, man. Welcome back. Awesome show, man. Awesome preview. And listen, man, we definitely want to hear your thoughts. You know what I’m saying? We appreciate everybody who’s been riding with us through this incredible wave of NBA performances and games and playoffs. And now that we’re here with the NBA Finals and know we’re just that much closer, but hopefully you’ll continue to enjoy that ride with us. For the baseline, Cali Warren Shaw, we appreciate you guys. You know, we do enjoy the NBA Finals and we’ll catch up with you next time.