Great catching up with Richie while he was in quarantine after his trip to the Middle East. We wanted to know what life in the Bubble is like on The European Tour, where he sees the future of the tour with the PGA taking a seat on the board as well as the latest distance report from the R&A and USGA.
If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-cookie-jar-golf-podcast/id1493651992) or Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/2RhNTEu1xA3I4QpUlHBt8H) !
You can follow us along below @cookiejargolf
Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/cookiejargolf/?hl=en) / Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/cookiejargolf/) / Twitter (https://twitter.com/cookiejargolf?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) / YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTMcSQBY7eIq1q9DTC50QoA) / Website (https://cookiejargolf.com/)
Watch [Applause] [Music] [Applause] this. No way. [Music] [Applause] Hello and welcome back to the Cookie Jar Golf Podcast. I’m joined today by Bruce. Hello. And we’ve got another returning guest to the pod. We have got Richie Ramsey. How you doing, Richie? I’m good. I’m good. Thanks for having me on. No, it’s a pleasure. It’s a pleasure. I got a feeling we’re keeping you occupied during uh quarantine, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I’m just um you know, I’ve got my daily chores to do and stuff like that and I just thought, well, add the add the cookie jar podcast in there. That’s that’s perfect. We’re always at a loose end. We always got no one to chat to and you knew it was a sure date. So, uh yeah, I was scared it was going to it was going to clash with with Scotland trying to beat Wales, but um we’ll be all right. You know, it would have been nice if we had done this last week cuz then actually had we’re not going to talk about rugby on a golf. Yeah. Yeah. First time in ages to be fair. You guys have done it at Kolkata Cup. Yeah. When they said it was the first time since 1983 that would beat England at Twickerham, I was like I was born in 83. So I was like I was like we haven’t had a good run. You’ve got you’ve got insane. You’ve got to take them while you you get them. Well, anyway, we’ll move swiftly on from the rugby if that’s all right, Richie. But, um, we we did kind of, uh, have another Renaissance friend of yours on the pod recently. Uh, in fact, the league, in fact, another R squared, Ronan Rafferty. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Had a good chat with him. You guys, I’m guessing, know each other a little bit from Renaissance Club. Yeah, I see him up there. Um, I see him up there every so often, more so in the in the summer. Um, and obviously he played played on on tour back in the day and did a lot um in the game, especially at that time when things were were growing and taking off with um with Europeans starting to make moves in America and majors and stuff and that whole sort of generation with with you know Faldo, Wooy, Lyall, um Langer. So, um, yeah, it’s it’s it’s good to have him up there and, um, yeah, got a wealth of experience. Yeah, he was a good fun, wasn’t he, Bruce? We had a good, uh, we had a good two and a half hours and I mean, we didn’t even scratch I was I was literally going to say, yeah, hardly scratched the surface. Just uh, stories stories for days, weren’t there? But, um, yeah, it’s fantastic to to get get Ronan on. And, yeah, little shout out to Jordan at Entourage Golf, I think, in order, isn’t it? Cuz he’s Jordan, you got he used to work at Renaissance, didn’t he? He’s now uh he’s now got Entourage Golf, which is a really cool. If you haven’t checked it out already, you must do. It’s a really good little uh travel company. It’s going to be a little bit different, a little bit hip. Um and uh yeah, Jordan got in touch. And obviously knowing Ron and thinking, well, what a great storyteller. Let’s uh let’s see if the Cookie Jaw Boys are ever talking to him. So, big shout out to Jordan. Yeah, he’s he’s done a great job and started up that Entourage Golf. Um and uh he’s he’s been in the business a long time. also worked at at Renaissance and he’s got a what a lot of people especially those people traveling and you know specifically from America he’s got a a great idea of what what they want and what they need and little things little things that you wouldn’t go to cuz you sometimes as a golfer you travel you fall into the tourist trap a little bit and you want to go to all these places that you’ve never heard of these quaint little pubs these cool places to eat uh and these little golf courses that you wouldn’t ordinarily go and um and and and cool places to stay that are uh that make it just make your trip because that’s what it’s about. When it’s a boy trip, you want to remember it and uh and Jordan Jordan’s got all the all the knowledge for that. It’s we we’ve had our Scotland trip, listeners will be bored of hearing about it. Um but the observation coming away from that in Scotland is you guys just have so many good people in and around golf just marketing it you know concier facilitating getting people to courses making sure an itinerary set like we don’t have anything at that in England and that I think that just makes you know a little trip through East Lotheian or whether it’s the Highlands or F or whatever it just makes it mega special because you’ve got so many knowledgeable people around there that just care so much about it that um Yeah. And like Jordan’s I guess kind of one of those people really. Yeah. It’s this we’re so fortunate we’ve got these kind of pockets of golf courses. Um, and within those golf courses, uh, there’s a huge variance. You know, like East Loian’s a great example, cuz you can play Murefield Open Championship Golf Course. You can play Renaissance Private Members Club, but then um, you know, you could go down to Craig Law and there’s a little par three that you could hang out with your mates and have a couple of beers and and go and play that or you go and play Bindi, which is super short, beautiful views, but so much fun. and and uh so there’s a huge variance um of golf courses and that and that also reflects itself in the hospitality and everything like that. You can stay at a B&B uh be close to ENA or you want to stay a really nice hotel maybe in center of Edinburgh and get the train out. So um it it actually saves you it saves you time as well. That’s the thing when you got someone who’s a lot of knowledge and they’re organizing trips particularly if you’re traveling um from you know East Loen or you’re going you’re going up north like people just look at it and go well that’s 100 miles that’ll take me an hour and 15 minutes and it’s like no you don’t want to go over the fourth row bridge at this time or you you know or 100 miles is actually that’ll take you like two and a bit hours because the roads are windy and and you’re not difficult to work out where you’re going. So yeah, local knowledge is is really important. I always find that when I go away somewhere, if I’ve got someone close who lives there, I’ll maybe just text him and say, you know, what do you think about this? I’m going to play this course. Is this the right? He’ll say, you know, don’t don’t go at this time. You know, better time to go. It’s later in the afternoon when it’s quieter, there’s not too much traffic, that kind of stuff. So you make the most of your day. Um, and when you’ve got I imagine between boys trips are anywhere between 2 3 days to to 10 days, you you got to try and make the most of your time. So, um, so kind of with that in mind, another little, uh, trip you’ve just come back from then is obviously a swing in the Middle East. How’s, uh, how’s life in the bubble been? Um, yeah, it was it was good. It’s obly a great place to go to. Um, you got a nice little town actually, which I never thought I’d say to a Scotsman. Well, that that will wear off. The golfer stand I’ll wear off pretty quick, but um yeah, I mean it was it was good. Uh not the results I wanted, but um yeah, it’s just working on working on stuff. The process things are going really well, but results didn’t really kick in. But um it was a really good three weeks. Great to get away and play. Um, a lot more I feel like you spend a lot more time emailing, sending stuff, a lot more administration with regards to like who you’ve been with, where you’re at, when you’re getting there, all that kind of stuff. So, you’ve got to be on top of that because if you’re not, like they won’t let you in. Um, so that that is that is was a part of golf before, it’s even going to be a greater part. So having someone who, you know, knows all the rules and they seem to change every day as well is really important. You guys getting tested literally daily in the bubble, aren’t you? Like they’re all Yeah, I’m guessing. I was going to I was going to say last time we spoke, Richie was May time. So I mean just the kind of the longer view of things, how how has it been in general? Yeah, as Sam was saying alluding to there, like the testing procedures and obviously the restrictions around travel and just I guess life in the the European tour bubble as a whole over the last, you know, 9 10 months or so. How’s that been? Has it been a big adjustment? Is there kind of chat amongst the guys about, you know, it’s difficult to really build up a a head of steam and kind of play your way into some consistent form with it being a bit more broken up now? Yeah, I think it’s I think at the start it was difficult because you’re you’re your world changes, you know? It’s like just you don’t just go and play a practice round. You got to book it. You got to work out how you’re going to get there. It’s not just um it’s just not as easy. You’ve got to be a lot more prepared and a lot more planned in what you’re going to do. They have to know where you’re you can’t just sort of pitch up and say, “Can I go and have a little practice round?” and kind of just they want to know where you are almost hour by hour, do they? Right. Yeah. They they want to know basically what time you’re playing a practice and who you’re playing it with. So if something happens, they’ve got like a it’s like a trace a trace of where you’ve been and who you’ve been with. And if you’re going to the gym, you can’t just go to the gym, you got to book a time and you get a a slope. Um so like if someone comes in test, then you know it’s got to get a deep clean, that kind of stuff. Um, so it’s they really want to know where you where you are, where you’ve been, um, who you’ve seen, and then everything’s aotted on time. So it’s you don’t really just if you’re going to see a physio, you don’t have like well just spend like 45 minutes and work out and do this. It’s like you get you get a slot and you go in there and once you hit like I think it’s 15 minutes or 20 minutes. Once you hit that, that’s it, done. Um, so it’s so yeah, there’s a lot of planning and stuff around that and I think guys in I mean it’s frustrating at the start because it changes your whole routine. Yeah, I think guys are used to it now. Um, the Middle East was run really well. We were pretty much in the same hotel. There was normally there’s normally one or two hotels and everybody stay in the same place. So everybody’s eating in the same place and it does get a little bit like Groundhog Day, you know. Um I’ve been here before. Yeah. You know, just every every day is like feels like it’s the same. Um but when you look back on it, like we’re we’re very fortunate. We’re we’re still running. We’re still up and going, whereas a lot of sports maybe aren’t. Um, and if that’s what you got to do in order to play in really good tournaments and and and protect your livelihood, that’s what you got to do. Um, but it it is nice when you you you come out of the bubble for like a day and that kind of this is going to sound real funny, but like it’s like walking down the road to go and get go and get like a takeaway coffee and just having that freedom to go outside and um we do get we we do get normally an hour to go out and walk and kind of um do a bit of exercise because it’s it’s as it’s as as much taxing like cuz you’re not getting that physical release, but it’s it’s the mental side. No doubt. Yeah. Yeah. I was I was going to say like I think um I saw recently some old like challenge tour footage of of Kker and him talking about how he liked being on the challenge tour and actually you know European tour as well because as an American he was able to see like a whole array of cultures and travel to different places and go out and do some sightseeing as well in his downtime. And I guess that’s now basically just just gone really from you can’t really do that as a as a pro on the European tour anymore. From what you’re saying, everything’s quite heavily kind of restricted and it’s like if you’re not out on the course practicing or you’re not in the gym, are you kind of confined to your hotel room almost? Pretty much. Um and and for me, I don’t know about all the other guys, but like occupying that time is a big thing cuz like suddenly you’re like, “Oh, I’m in my room like,” you know, even going downstairs like having a chat to a few guys like or sitting outside um having having plenty of books on on tap to read them so the time goes by so you don’t start thinking about stuff. Um because it’s, you know, it’s always like when someone says like you can’t do something, you want it even more. Yeah. And um and and every everybody deals with it differently. Some people are okay with it, some people struggle with it. Um it’s just it’s just part of life now and it’s uh it definitely has an impact on you talk about momentum as well. Trying to build up momentum. you’re trying to um you feel constricted I guess don’t you almost feel like there’s there’s just constantly must feel like there’s almost like a set of rains on you just sort of pulling you back a little bit because it’s quite hard to kind of just freestyle really really and get into your own own flow with things I’m guessing yeah you you I mean I think most golfers are quite independent and they like doing their own things at their own time and everybody’s individual and uh and and because of that is taken away a little bit, but it’s, you know, they’re ultimately they’re trying to keep you safe. And that’s the biggest thing. And and I think for me, having a family, that’s the other thing is you you realize that they’re trying to keep us safe, but if we do that correctly, then it keeps our family safe. So when you go home, there’s the risk to them is heavily heavily reduced. Yeah. Yeah. And I think when you put it when you become frustrated with things and I put it in those terms, I’m like, “No, I see it. It’s fine. Let’s just let’s just try and crack on with it.” Yeah. It’s almost like a necessary, isn’t it? It must be interesting as well. All kind of being in the in the same hotel and in that bubble. Do you guys kind of spend quite a bit of time socially in the evening? And also, I mean, I’m itching to know who’s last at the bar in the hotel. It’s got to of course Sam wants to know. We’ve got to go in for a bit of gore on the pod, haven’t we? But that’s quite cool. All kicking around in the in the hotel together. Must Yeah. You can’t Sounds funny. You can’t really socialize because you’re kind of you’ve kind of got to stay within your group, right? Um, but you do see guys, you know, like going down, you know, like sounds funny, but like going downstairs, like a night out is like going downstairs. I’ll go and get a coffee and sitting and maybe having a chat with someone from a distance. And that’s that’s like a kind of that’s almost like a little bit of a treat. Um, Sam might be disappointed. No, I’m I’m not a once it hits Monday, I’m I’m off the alcohol. I don’t touch it until Sunday. Yeah. Um and uh there’s some boys who who might be the opposite who might need, you know, might have a a nice glass of wine every night or a couple of beers or something like that just to chill out. Um and that’s that’s I say it’s each to their own. Um I’m not as, you know, I I’m just I’m just I just put that rule in and that’s that’s the way I kind of do things. Um, and plus, you know, I like an early bedtime. I like when it gets to about 9:30, I’m starting to I fall asleep like got a young family. I’m in the same boat. I mean, 9:30 is the as late as it gets for me these days. So, yeah. You know, it’s like, you know, when you’re when you’re younger and you think to yourself, 9:30, where you going to bed at 9:30? That’s crazy. You just stay up and go out and stuff like that. And then you get to about mid30s, you’re like, oh yeah, the the 10our sleep. Oh, that would be brilliant. Yeah. Get up. Old man old man syndrome. Yeah. Well, I guess um you know lead leading on from the um the swing in the Middle East, you’ve got a bit of a break now. Uh sort of three three weeks or so, two three weeks, something like that until the next um European tour event. I guess you know there’s been a lot of chat recently about um the PGA’s acquisition of a stake in in the European tour and a seat at the table. Um are is there much in the way of chat you know amongst players about the impact that’s going to have and obviously you know commentators it’s their job to speculate about these things but um but look looking ahead what’s the kind of consensus if there is such a thing or or just the general mood as to how things are looking for the this season and the season ahead I think everybody’s got a different view in it everybody that I’ve spoken to has got a different view because we’re all in depending on where your position is in the second order. It affects you differently. Yeah. So, you know, it’s a good thing now that we’ve probably got a little bit more money and, you know, J more hands on the board because you would like to think that the scheduling would match up a little bit and it wouldn’t clash as much. Um, you know, the BMW PG is a good example. [Music] Um, but for me, like it’s like 2 plus 2 always equals 4. Like there’s only one way this is going and it’s a world tour for me. That’s that’s I look at it and it’s been going this way for a long time. And I think co’s actually just might be the catalyst that that seals everything. Um I believe in 5 years time may maybe less that um it will come to the point where there will be a world tour and those guys will play for significantly more money than we play for at the moment and there’ll be feeder tours and those tours and one of those tours might be Europe it might be Asia it might be corn ferry but somehow there’ll be a promotion and relegation within that. Um, so if you’re on the the top end of it, um, it’s it’s this could be brilliant and you like an international schedule, it’ll be brilliant for you and you could pay for a lot more money. Um, but I think if you’re kind of rank and file, if I was honest, you might be playing for less money, but with the with the opportunity to go up to um it just and and the way I come to that conclusion is that there’s a lot a lot of products out there in the moment at golf and like so I decided Mark at university and and you look at a sponsor like HSBC now they sponsor Abu Dhabi now you also have a tournament on in in America so there’s so the cameras are in America and the cameras are in Europe and there’s a kind of I’m not saying you’re diluting the product but there’s a not all eyes are on one golf I’m sure you guys watch some of this stuff in America but watch Abu Dhabi but well Sky obviously have to balance their commentary team across you what’s going on in the US and Europe and you know that you know it’s hard and you can’t you know the today’s goal for like geez I can’t I can’t commit to one tournament for a full weekend let alone two like if I watch the if I watch the Abu Dhabi on a Sunday and then tune in for what’s going on in the PGA in the evening like I’m I’m divorced like I mean that’s yeah that’s 10 hours of gulp like I can’t Yeah yeah yeah try and pass that through the misses that’s not happening but you’re right there’s a massive clash isn’t there yeah and I just I think you know if you said to I’m just using HSBC as example if you said you know okay you got one tournament but instead of putting you know x amount of millions double it and instead of having maybe half the eyes or less than half the eyes on you you’re going to get all the attention and you’re going to get a better feared field we’re going to guarantee it so suddenly it’s like you have people from Asia people from Europe all around the world and they’re focused on on one uh tournament and then everything that feeds off there with regards to the advertising moves up, the the TV rights moves up, the amount of eyes just watching the TV, the social media interaction moves up. Um, and I just think that like the economic argument will always outweigh some of the other arguments. Um, and I I think like I love the European tour. I think it’s a it’s it gives a lot of character. We go to some really cool places, you know. Um, and America would love to tap into that. Like one week we’re playing in like Hong Kong, the next week we’re up a mountain in Switzerland and we’re going to play um uh just outside Versailles. So you got the palace of Versailles there and then you’re and then you’re in London and then suddenly you’re in the Highlands in Scotland and and and then you’re playing on the coast in Ireland. I mean all those places have huge character. They’re really cool places to visit. The people welcome us. Uh the welcome the hospitality is fantastic. Particularly in places that don’t get these big tournaments all the time. you know, when you go to like Lehench and it’s a whole town thing and that everybody buys into it. And I think honestly that’s something like the PG tour will never have and I think that’s something that we have in bucket loads and they would love to get some of it. Yeah, isn’t it? I mean, cornfairy, you know, by comparison, you know, it really is just town to town and, you know, I mean, again, it’s easy for us to say being over here with the breadth that you’ve just talked about, but yeah, there’s a lot more going for it in terms of the core setup and, you know, that must be interesting playing and visiting those places. But it’s also good from a viewing point of view, right? like you know it’s fascinating to watch you know some of the world’s best play Dubai Desert Classic and then later in the year get to watch people te it up in you know a Renaissance or you know La Hinch or you know Wentworth you know and it’s a big contrast there um how does how does the um how do the other guys kind of take to it is it does do you think it kind of fares pretty much based on like you say where they’re at in terms of rankings as to whether or not you know they can you know, maybe the world tour would be for them and if so, they’re kind of in favor of it or is it generally pretty kind of even split in terms of people who are kind of for or you know against it? I think I think in general most people are for it. I think most people for that um that PGA tour buying because they feel like it’s going to strengthen our strengthen our product in the in the short term for sure. There’s also money comes in there and there’s influence comes in there. Um, you know, nobody knows for certain what’s going to happen in the future. Um, but I just feel like these are the first steps towards it. If you listen to the the heads of the go, not the governing bodies, but the heads of the the tours and you listen to exactly what they say, they don’t specifically come out and say this is what it’s going to be, but they say they talk about big tournaments. They talk about big tournaments being better fields and and the world tour does that in a way. Um, I think the European tour needs that the Europe in general needs a tour and um, you can never forget about that. But I think they I think this they’ll come to a sticking point where things will start to change and and you’ll have to the product will have to get better. Um, the product will need to be a little bit a little bit more a little bit different. you know, playing up guys talk about that with regards to the adverts and stuff. I mean, it you need to get eyes on golf and that has an impact of getting getting people to play golf. There’s no doubt about it. So, I think there will be a significant change in the next five years. don’t know exactly when, but I think in the next 5 years it will come and there’ll be a there’ll be a a change in it because I don’t think it can go on the path it’s going and still be as relevant. Yeah, I guess a lot of people would be in favor of of that world tour you’ve just outlined, Richie, because I guess one element of it is that golf is maybe seen as being a more meritocratic sport than others, whereas it’s not, you know, subject to the same kind of um guessing around, you know, like just football’s perhaps the obvious example where um it’s maybe subjective as to, you know, whether you make it to a top team. Whereas in golf, it’s like everyone nowadays is so good. You’ve got to have like that inner belief that you’re going to be playing on that top stage and therefore having the best fields, having huge prize funds, playing at the best courses that, you know, obviously the three of us are all um architecture enthusiasts playing at courses that are interesting to watch and and play. All of that would be, you know, a positive development. I think perhaps the concern is maybe around the PGA Tour just kind of remaining where it is and most of the big tournaments being played in America on some courses that a lot of people would see as being bland or boring and maybe just that American kind of insularity is what people don’t want. They want a tour that, as you say, it’s going to maybe play some awesome events down at the Sand Belt in Royal Melbourne, which everyone regards as being one of the best spots to play golf in the world, or going out to Hong Kong, going out to, you know, the Highlands of Scotland. Just something that is is global in nature, but brings together the best fields and as you guys are saying, has all eyes on those events at particular points in time. And then maybe I guess would the logical step there be for the corn ferry to be a kind of feeder to that based in America. I think the tour in Japan’s kind of pretty well received at the moment in terms of the prize funds and how it treats its players. And then maybe maybe it would even bolster like the challenge tour say in Europe and uh uh maybe allowing sort of challenge tour prize funds to become a little bit more comparable to the corn ferry and all those kind of three prongs are maybe working towards this this global tour. Yeah, I mean I I fully believe that if it was a world tour, the majority events would still be in America because America is where the money is. So yeah, you can’t get away from that. And you know, say it was between, let’s say, say it was like 60% of the tournaments were there and then you had maybe you know 15% 20% in Europe and then you split the other ones up whether it be you know uh you know like a Ned bank um a net bank down there and then it would be you know like one in New Zealand, one in one in Australia and then you’d have you know potentially like a Dubai, Abu Dhabi, you know, couple in Asia and one in Japan. That kind of idea, that sort of swing or one in Korea. Um, I think that that’s the way it’s heading. But I get your point. I mean, because the amount of people who always say to me, oh, you know, Cran here, like, oh, I’d love to go there. That looks a beautiful place. Or or I was watching, you know, what’s that Castle Stewart like? The views look go and play that. and and people are it’s amazing how much people are brought in by somewhere which has character and has uh a kind of atmosphere that you can’t get that’s not just like it’s not just the same every week. No one’s saying that about Trinity Forest, are they? In America, for example. No, I mean I’ve not played it but but no one is saying it about that, are they? No, I don’t think now. Yeah, they didn’t sort of buy into that, I don’t think. Um, I just I I I I just think that’s that’s the way it’s going and that’s what the key decision makers have in have in mind. Um, and it would be I think it would be good, but you still need those channels to get to the top. So, I think you know those those feeder tours are really important because you need to bring through those young players. Uh, I was one of those young players and I was fortunate that that the challenge tour which is a is a heavily heavily underrated tour in in in my mind. It teaches you your trade. It teaches you if you’re good enough, you’re competing against um really good players. You’re traveling like a lot of travel involved in it. Um, so you learn that element of it and it and it really hardens you and it doesn’t surprise me that when you see a lot of guys win these days like Stenson or Kima or whoever it may be, they were all in the challenge tour because they learned their trick and they learned it quickly and and made that jump onto the European tour. So the feeder tours are really really important. Yeah. and Kepkco another obvious example and that was must have felt like a that was a really bold decision for him I guess wasn’t it to go out and do that because it’s so against the grain of how a lot of the players in America would grow up and and kind of naturally find their way into you know the PGA and professional golf um in terms of the places are there any kind of areas where you think hell I’d love to play a tournament out there you know where’s the gaps in the schedule from your point of view I’ve always wanted to play in Japan I’ve really interested in like the Japanese culture, uh the sort of the respectfulness and the the politeness of the people in Japan, everybody that I’ve met, and the kind of uh there’s a there’s a thing that I there’s a word that I picked up is called Kaizen, which is like continual continual improvement or progression of oneself. And that’s kind of what I base my whole sort of golf career around. It’s trying to progress and be the best I can be. And I feel like in Japan a lot of the people are that have that mindset. Um, and there’s a there’s obviously not known to me, but over the last few years done a bit of research. There’s a great history in Japan with the golf and they’re so enthusiastic about it over there. You saw when the guys went over and played. So yeah, I would love to play in Japan. Um I’ve only played golf in New Zealand once, but never played any of the never played like Cape Kidnappers or Tariti. They look insane, don’t they? Yeah, they they they look I mean the drone footage at Cape Kidnappers is it looks brilliant. So yeah, all those all those places that are are are far-flung probably. Um, I’ve never played haven’t played too much golf in in Canada. Some of those places in Vancouver look really really cool. Um, and I’ve always wanted to travel, you know, be up on that west coast and sweep all the way down and and do, you know, San Fran, some of the cool courses there, drive down 17 mile and play like Montterrey and Cyprus and uh and and do that drive. Um but yeah, Japan stands out for me because it’s it just an opportunity. It’s huge cash in the game out there as well. Got to think there’s a massive gap there for sponsors like just wanting to throw cash into a big event out there like they must be able to attract a big field. You you would like to think I mean it’s it’s not actually you know if you if you put these things and do it in and do them separately it’s tough for guys to buy into it. So if you said to me, we’re doing one event Australia, I was like, there’s no way I’m going down there for one week. But if it’s part of a swing, guys will buy into it. Um, and that’s kind of what you’ve really got to do. You’ve got to package them. And I’ve always said, and they’ve talked about it recently, like that WGC moving to concession and potentially it coming to Europe in time. So, the reason that is so important is because it’s not just the WGC that gets elevated. It’s the tournaments around it because guys will I’ll play the WGC, yeah, and I’ll play the week after or I’ll play the week before as a warm up and I’ll and I’ll play the WGC. So, those events around the WGC’s get elevated. So when you do something in Asia or especially when it’s a long way away, putting it in a in a package and just saying, you know, right, we’re going to play Korea one week, play Japan the next, and then we’re going to have one outlier which may change. Um, and those markets, you know, I don’t know the exact numbers, but apparently there’s, you know, something millions and millions of people in Korea who play indoor golf all the time. Yeah. So, and they’ve got a lot of seriously good players that are coming through on the PGA Tour. So, you have those guys that pull them in. So, from a from a markets perspective, it’s it has huge potential. South Korea, it’s crazy, isn’t it? And you look at the dominance as well in the in the women’s game right now with South Korea. It’s it’s frightening. And there’s obviously there’s not that talent coming through without a swell of interest in the sport. So, you’ve just got to think there’s there’s there’s opportunity out there. One of the other things I wanted to ask you about Richie was the um um obviously recently the distance report came out and rather unexpected from the RNA and the USGA and that’s kind of stirred up a bit of debate. What was the I’m guessing there was a bit of murmurings out in the Middle East among you know a luxurious cup of coffee at a safe 2 m distance. I’m guessing that was kind of kicked around a little bit. What was the what’s what’s the vibe? What’s your take on it? I know you’re quite historically quite outspoken when it comes to, you know, rolling back some of that technology. And, you know, Rory hit back at that pretty hard, didn’t he, by saying, you know, we’re focusing on the wrong thing. We should be focusing on enjoyment. And, you know, kind of interested to get your take, I think, really. Yeah. I think a lot of the top players were like kind of like, you know, I think it’s a waste of money and I don’t agree with it. I’ll back Rory what Rory says. But when you look at what he actually says in the full transcript, they’ve picked out pieces of it. The media wouldn’t do that, Richard. I’m not having that. Oh, that Yeah, I don’t believe it. Are you telling me the media have constructed taken what he said slightly out of context and and changed the story? Yeah, I’m not having it. Believe it or not, it does happen. Um, I I get I get what he’s saying because it’s a lot of money to invest and do that. But at the same time, if the USG and RNA want to make a change, um, it would be the same people who would turn around and say, “Well, show me the evidence.” You know, a lot of stuff we do in golf is evidence-based. And the best uh, coaches I know are evidence-based coaches. They can prove something to you. They won’t just say it. You can prove it. And and this is what the RNA and the USG are trying to do. I believe, and this is a personal opinion, I believe that they they need to do something. It’s been a long time coming. I think they should have done something in 2005, 2006. Um, and the reason I think they should have done something is because if you’re going to make a change, you have to, for me, interact with the manufacturers and you need to give them enough time because they work years in advance on R&D and everything like that. And they put a lot of money into golf and there’s a lot of jobs in golf that are backed by them. And I think you need to respect that. And whatever you do, you need to give them significant time in order to change their business model. So, you know, I’m talking whatever change you make, it’s got to be in years. But I I do think definitely since I’ve been on tour, like the driving element, the size of the driver and the the distance, people hit the ball a lot further. I hit the ball a lot further. And the other thing is further and straighter. That’s that’s the big thing for me is like the technology really really helps. Yeah. The spin’s right down on these things now, isn’t it? You know, flying hard and it’s not flying off in every direction. Well, how big the head is as well. Like just um you know, stumbling across one of my granddad’s like pimmen wound heads. Obviously that’s going back a long time, but you’re like, “No, but actually you look at it and you’re like that is like probably smaller than a lot of fairway woods in terms of the actual face and where you can hit on it to to get a decent outcome.” Um, to me it seems like actually you could boil a lot this down to the size of a driver head. Yeah, that I mean I’m just just the size of it. If you did nothing about the distance component, said, “Yeah, you can hit you can hit the club as far, but you’ve got to hit it out of the center of the face because if you don’t hit out the center of the face, this thing is off the planet.” Yeah, I’m like I’m on board with that. I’m that’s so on my wavelength because the other thing is like people people, you know, you talk about like entertainment. So, right, do you want to see every day just hit it 320 down the middle every every hole? Like the most enjoyable guys to watch are Mikkelson and like remember whenever you watch Sevy. Why? Because you don’t know what’s going to happen. Like you could hit one down the middle 320 but the next one could be 40 yards offline. Then he’s got to cut it around a tree and what’s he going to do here? You know that’s what when I’m when I’m offline that’s that’s the time when people are like oh what’s he going to do then? Like cutting it around trees and hitting it through gaps and trees. uh and trying to hit shots. You know, oh well, what’s he doing here? Oh, he’s he’s setting a sandwich out from the rough and he’s chipping it back on the fairway. Would you want to watch? No, I don’t want to watch that. I’ve got no interest in that. But you have the interest when it’s it’s exciting to watch, you know. And the other thing is what a lot of people don’t realize or forget is that when you have that dispersion, you know, if you stand up on the first te, don’t care if you’re a pro or you’re a 36 handicapper, you stand up in the first te and you carve one way, right? You stand up in that second te and you’re thinking about it. It don’t care if you’re world number one or not. That’s in your head. So mentally it’s a lot harder at the moment. It feels like if you’ve got a bunker at like 285, like say for me, and I’m standing there, I was like, “Well, I need to hit one pretty good here.” I was like, “Well, I know I can just swing hard. As long as I hit the club face, it’s pretty much still itself out, won’t it?” Yeah, it’s it’s going to work itself out. And it’s all about sort of just generating that speed. But if you’re standing there and you’re thinking, “Right, I need to swing hard at this, but I also need to hit it off the middle or it’s spinning up and there’s no chance I’m carrying it.” Like that’s so so the the outcome is less predictable. So surely that’s more entertaining. Um and it’s harder for the golfer. You know, hitting the hitting the ball long and straight is a is a huge skill, but that skill in my mind is being diminished just because of the size of the head. So, yeah. What? Sorry, carry on, Richie. Yeah. So yeah, sort of I would love to see something done and I would love to see um because I just don’t think we can afford to build courses, more TE’s, more maintenance, uh more money which clubs really don’t have I think at this time. I think the argument falls down though because you can’t have it every way can you? So most people certainly for as an amateur like I bifocation feels like a step away and I know it was there in the ‘ 70s but you know there’s a marketing cache that goes with putting the new you know Callaway driver in your hands and then people going out and then buying it or you know DJ picking up the SIM 2 and then winning with it and then people going out and buying that the next week. So you bifoccate and I think that has the impact from from a marketing point of view people as interested in buying the technology but then if you don’t do the if you don’t roll back the equipment at a professional level then you don’t get to see the courses because you know the courses are becoming more and more obsolete aren’t they? So you know this is I know this is like stuff that constantly gets trotted out but you know we were talking earlier about the schedule. If you rolled back some of this stuff to the point where actually you could take the game to other courses, you know, Royal Melbourne obviously had the the President’s Cup fairly recently, but that wouldn’t host a 72 whole stroke play event, would it? Now, you know, be great. You know, you know where I’m going with this. I get your point though. Yeah. Yeah. It brings a lot of these courses back into scope, doesn’t it, for for tournament play, which I don’t know whether it’s a good or a bad thing, but you know, it’s hard because you just can’t have it every which way. Um, and yeah, I don’t know. I suppose a question buried within there, are you for bification or or not? Pro is funny line to walk, right? Because yeah, like it really affects you, you know, you’re in that kind of small catchment of players that Yeah. Yeah, I mean I would say I would say yes to it. Um, and the reason I would say yes to it is because really what Rory alluded to is you want to get people engaged in the game and making it that bit easier because it is a hard game. Um, is the way forward in equipment really does help you. The point you make about, you know, DJ going to win with with the driver or, you know, John Ram having the new Callaway Epic and I want to play the same is a really really valid argument and I think that’s where the engagement with the manufacturers needs to happen um to iron some of those things out. But it’s it’s it just feels to me like something needs to be done. And it it doesn’t it can’t be half-hearted. It needs to be full boore because I just don’t think like you know what we’re going to do in 50 years. We’re going to play 8 and a half thousand yard courses. So are are you going to have every All right guys, you’ve got to put another team back there. Well, we can’t. there’s there’s a row of houses, you know, or you’ve got to you got to um you got to change the golf course. It’s like, well, we we can’t change the golf course. We don’t have the money. So, I I get where Rory’s coming from. Um but you know my viewpoint would be you know if if if we had rolled back or we drawn a line in the sand maybe 10 20 years ago. So all those new tea boxes all those new greens all those new bunkers that were put into at golf courses to allow for the distance. Imagine all that money went into junior golf. You know how much money that would be? Yeah. Millions. Yeah. absolutely millions. And um I just think we’ve got to we we have to do something. And I think for me the driver head just like you alluded to is is a huge huge thing. I don’t mind guys long. If you want to hit it long, go and do it. And but and the the funny thing was is that if the driver head was small, people would actually stand there and go, “That is even more impressive.” To hit it straight in 300 yards, small headed driver is way more impressive than hitting it with a big one. And it it just takes You’ve seen it guys test out with Pimmons and guys test out with modern clubs. You’ve seen the numbers on the track, man. It makes a significant difference. Yeah, I think it’s a it’s a complex debate, isn’t it, in many ways because, you know, throughout history, the long the drivers of the ball who are long and straight have always been near the top of the money list and have always been the ones winning. So, I I don’t think we’re ever going to get away from that. I I don’t think we’re going to be able to prioritize different skills in the game. driving historically has always been hugely hugely important or a very clear indicator of success. It’s just Yeah. And also as for the the the size of the driver head as well I I I mean obviously as I was saying earlier like I think that seems like some lowhanging fruit potentially but I also wonder whether you know paradoxically it would actually improve some people’s driving as well. like you know Tiger is obviously held up as someone who was a pretty elite driver of the ball until um a lot of the new equipment came in and I wonder whether you know someone like him where he’s maybe allowed to hit down on the ball a bit more. I’m putting my technical hat on here. I can see Sam rolling his eyes but if he’s allowed if he’s allowed to hit down on the ball a bit more whether actually, you know, he goes back to to driving the ball better than he does currently. I just just wonder whether a lot of the emphasis on hitting five up on it and trying to hit it with low spin can also just become a skill that is is chased after so readily by the likes to shambo and DJ. But for guys like Mikkelson who um you know grew up on on older equipment titanium heads with steel shafts it actually hinders them a bit. Yeah, it’s it’s funny that you mention that because the argument the debate depends on when you were born for me. Yeah. Because I was born in an era where I was brought up on metal woods with screws in them and I remember spending all my money on my 16th birthday on a Callaway Warbird and a Callaway 3-wood RCH 96 shaft. And it was like these are the greatest things ever. Just like from a bicycle to a car. Yeah. Suddenly you felt like you’re going voucher hunting at all these junior opens all the time and you’re just not going to play so well. Um and over the years you go back to and you and you think to yourself, “Oh yeah, I remember those clubs. Remember getting bigger.” And you go back to them now. You go back, I mean, you see a a nor an old callway warird driver, it’s the size of a fivewood. Yeah. And it’s so I’ve lived through that transition, whereas a lot of the guys coming out now, they’ve only had the the bigger headed or generally had the bigger spaceship drivers. Yeah. Yeah. The UFO kind of. So, so when I was, you know, I’m growing up and I’m thinking to myself, right, we’re not we’re not swinging hard on this, you know, it was always about, you know, think about Faldo. It’s like get on the fairway, keep it in play, you know, cuz if you miss it, it’s like like that. It’s like reload. Um, but these guys growing up, they don’t have that. They don’t have that fear. They don’t have that problem. They don’t know what it’s like to hit like a small headed driver and think to myself like, okay, I’m hitting the other one, but like I could be about by the time I’m finished here, I could be five, seven off the tea. Whereas it’s like give me the big driver, swing hard, and the forgiveness, the technology will do its work. And that’s great for the amateur, but for I almost feel for the pro it’s kind of like it’s not too easy. That’s not the right way to put it. I just feel like it allows them to focus their efforts in one kind of dimension and that’s club head speed, right? Well, speed things away. Yeah, it’s an interesting one, isn’t it? Cuz you look at, you know, Spath for example, and the only reason he springs to mind is because he’s obviously making a little bit of comeback at the moment, but his driving is still a, you know, clearly the weakest part of his game. It’s tough because he he’s obviously a really really skilled player and you’re looking at his driving, you’re like, well, wow. Okay, if we went back to a small headed driver potentially, would he just not even be able to get away with some of the misses that he’s able to get away with now? or would it f dare I say f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f focus his mind a bit more. I don’t know. You just It’s hard. It’s a It’s a tricky one to to to kind of follow through to the logical conclusion there. But um it’s it’s funny cuz like golf would be in my mind say you just take like Tiger one masters 97, right? Yeah. First master. You take 97 and you just like pause the button there and just say ex extend all the way through to to now with regards to equipment. I think t you know Tiger beats Nicholas’s record in my mind. He he beat Nicholas’s record and and Mike Clayton said the same actually. I remember when we first spoke to to Mike. Yeah. Yeah. Quite quite comfortably. It’s it’s that’s not an issue. And I think it’s almost it’s had a negative impact on him almost to the point I would say it might have had, you know, I would also argue people like Rory would be would be even more of a dominant player with that 1997 equipment because of how it’s how sound and how technically good his swing is uh for me and how he can uh maneuver the ball and and the miss for him on on a smaller headed driver is is still pretty minimal. Um I it’s amazing how this the story would change. Yeah. Um and and so you’re going to get people who won’t like it and you’re going to get people will will like it. And you know a lot of people say, “Oh, well Richie, he doesn’t hit it that far. He just wants to, you know, he just wants to think it’s going to be advantage for him.” Well, it’s not going to be advantage for me. It’s nothing to do about me. I’m going to drop back as well. The long hitters will still be long. M you know and the short hitters will still be short. Um but we’ll probably be playing better courses. Yeah. Well, the the prospect of maybe going back to like a Sunningale for example, which is what sort of 68 69 I think from the from the back tees going back to a course like that which was a favorite amongst European tour players at various points throughout the 70s and 80s I think if I’m not wrong. Um, that’s probably exciting to a lot of current players. I mean, I don’t know what we obviously taken taking the piss a little bit about Trinity Forest and some of the the bad American courses, but it’s applicable, I guess, in parts as well to some elements in Europe. Um, and and just courses everywhere that are maybe built not only for large crowds, but also for for trying to, you know, steer clear of a winning score that’s 20 under par. Yeah. Yeah, I mean like Celtic on the UK swing. There’s a lot more to celebrate in British golf than Celtic manner, isn’t there? Like I know it’s I know it’s a Ryder Cup venue, but I think that was done partly hotel reasons as well, quarantine stuff, but I get but but also you know what I mean. It’s like we’ve got to have it over a layout that can accommodate distance. That’s like a prerequisite of holding a tournament. And I think some people have alluded to this as well. I think that’s a huge thing for women’s golf. Like a huge thing for women’s golf. Go and play on these courses because they they suit you perfectly. You know, you don’t have maybe as many crowds. Um, so you don’t need that huge infrastructure, but those real uh what we say old style courses that have that atmosphere um like a like a Sun and Dale, like a you know, someone said to me like go and play the Scottish Women’s Open at Kilpindy. You know how much fun that would be? That’d be brilliant. It’s probably a little on the short side to be Yeah. Yeah. but but like I know, you know, you could you should really be playing the Scottish Open. I know it doesn’t have a um it doesn’t have a range but North Beric you know how many people every CR every North B I love North B go and play the women’s Scottish open there I bet you there would be there would be a few people who’d be like oh the women are playing at North I might I might tune that I would probably tune in and say I would love to see% yeah whereas whereas you know use that as an opportunity I know um well didn’t they this year last year rather they played was it the US women’s open or the women’s PG PGA they played at Aronom which yeah and other kind of top courses like that in the states apart I mean you know Rory’s even said it himself he says you know oh if it was down at Royal Melbourne I’ I’ you know I’d think about maybe going to play you know he the key is uh when you’re tournaments you need to set up for the big not set the course up but like speak to the big players and say what do you want would you know if I put a tournament on here, would you go and play it? You know, well, probably not. You know, like Justin Justin Thomas goes and plays the French Open the other year and yeah, he was going there to see the um he was going to see the golf course because he went to see the golf course for the RE Cup, but he’s also probably staying in like the Tri Trien Palace or and then going to the chat. I mean, it’s like he’ll go back and he’ll tell people as like, “Oh, yeah. Well, I went I went to I went to go around a shadow that was built by King Louie and said people, “Oh, you don’t get to do that every week on the P. That sounds quite interesting.” I was like, you know, and and I just went to the local Wendy’s or whatever. Yeah. So, it’s it’s like that’s probably got my cultural reference wrong there to be fair, but that’s the uh I think that’s the the thing that brings guys in, you know? It’s it’s not always specifically about the golf, it’s about the stuff that goes around it. Yeah. the golf course is really important. And if you said, “We’re playing a tournament at Kingston Heath.” Oh, that would change my mind. So then my ears pick up a little bit there. And I’m like, “Oh, I think about that.” Imagine you did a a tour, you said to, you know, Rory Mackoy, which what’s your favorite golf courses? Would you come and play this? You know, I bet you if you played it on a course that he really rated and really enjoyed, um, they would come back. That’s that’s for me. Like they used to have the Scottish Open at Lach Lmond. That’s the reason why, you know, it was a week before the open. Yeah. And it wasn’t a Lynx golf course. But what a golf course. What a beautiful place to go and visit. Guys would love to go back there. I know a ton of guys that say on tour always say we’d ever go back to LL for the Scottish Open. That’s, you know, because they love the place. They love the golf course and it was a lot of fun to play. Yeah. It’s hard to imagine that if you put Yes. If you put a it’s hard to imagine if you put a kind of Australasian or Asian kind of swing to this global tour that we’ve been talking about that starts in Tara 80 or Cape Kidnappers then goes on to Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath and then through to some venues in whether it’s an Allison course or something like that in Japan or Korea. And it’s hard to think that people actually turn that down. You know, I guess with pros, they’d be like, “Wow, that would be what a stretch of golf that would be if you kind of were able to stagger it so that the the time differences and the jet lag was managed and you had great fields there and um you playing these sort of classic courses that have been fantastic, Nick. I think I think I think we’ve done done a good job putting the putting the world and the the world of golf to right here, Richie. Actually, roll back the the equipment, make the drive smaller, and just play tier one tracks. Yeah. But it’s so easy being on this side and and doing it. And I mean, you don’t take you don’t sympathize, but someone’s got to make the decision here. And there’s there’s absolutely no way it’s a win-win across the board. Like, you are not never going to get this right. It’s such a great topic. That’s why people like us love talking about it. But when something’s decided, that’s going to be a really difficult decision to make. And I think it’s coming soon. Like, I think that report kind of set it out. So, I guess time will tell, right? Yeah, it’s it’s going to be really interesting to see what they do. Um, there isn’t I don’t think there is a right answer. Like you’re saying, you’re going to annoy people. It’s just it for me it comes down to like the sort of almost like say the good of the game. It’s like is this in the best interest of the game? is is is the changes you’re going to make. Are they going to be helpful for the game in order to give it a longevity, make sure that clubs can survive, make sure that, you know, it sounds funny, but people get around the course quicker, you know, that kind of idea. That that’s what that’s what you’ve got to think because it’s funny we’ve we’ve struggled a little bit to attract new members in the UK and the pandemic has changed that because it’s changed the market. So the funny thing was just talked about people have more time because they’re furoughed. Um they have uh you can only play if you’re a member. So more me more people have joined golf courses. Um and there’s been a lack of competition. So there’s a lack of you know other sports that are playing or you can’t do some other things that you can’t go away and travel. So those three things the pandemic has changed it for you say the good of golf and getting people and it’s like well it’s taken something artificial to change the market. Why didn’t we do that ourselves? I’m not saying all the things you can do exact with the strength the pandemic’s done it but you’ve got to think to yourself well the solution was there you know it’s just sp it’s been the catalyst hasn’t it and it’s kind of sped things along and you know I think the the clubs that do well out of this the ones that realize that the market’s changed and and and adapt quickly to to what people are asking for. Yeah. um mind mindful of your time, Richie, and everything, but I really appreciate you coming back on. Um we’ll be uh we’ll be keeping a keen interest this season with the when the events start back up and you’re back out of quarantine again and back out on the road and um yeah, we’re kind of wishing you all all the luck for the rest of the season and uh we’ll no doubt get to catch up with you hopefully in a few months. Yeah, defin you guys are doing a great job. I loved it. Loved the videos of um of particularly of uh of walking or no sorry the Birkshire was it Bshire that was one Brooks narrated that one did two of those. Yeah that was that was brilliant. So you guys are doing a great job just just putting content out there for for guys to especially guys who come into golf now just to talk about and obviously I I’m I’m biased because I love the architects architecture side of things. So, um um it’s great to see that and particularly like the promotion of the stuff in Scotland um cuz we have a I believe we have a worldass place for people to come and visit. It’s tough at the moment, but we need to show people like it’s still going to be there and it will still be there once hopefully we get through this. [Applause] [Music] [Applause] This. No way. [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music]
