All Blacks great Grant Fox is in studio immediately following Ryan Fox’s recent PGA Tour victory, reflecting on his journey and the pride it brings to his family.
The discussion transitions into Fox’s early life, his friendship with Martin Crowe, and his rise in the rugby world, highlighting the significance of leadership and teamwork. The conversation further explores the legacy of the Auckland rugby team in the 80s, their dominance, and the cultural importance of the Ranfurly Shield in New Zealand rugby, emphasising the respect and camaraderie among players. I
We relive some famous moments from Fox’s career, including is winning kick against the Lions.
Fox also reflects on the adversity encountered on the path to winning the 1987 World Cup, highlighting the evolution of rugby and the athletes who shaped its legacy. I
He discusses the role of an All Black selector, while Marshy and Fox share hilarious stories their time working with Sir Steve Hansen.
Download SAILY in your app store and use our code GBRANZ at checkout to get an exclusive 15% off your first purchase ✅ For further details go to https://saily.com/gbranz
00:00 Celebrating Ryan Fox’s PGA Tour Win
06:01 Grant Fox’s Early Life and Career
12:08 The Auckland Rugby Legacy
19:04 The Ranfurly Shield and Its Significance
25:53 The Legacy of the Lions Tour
30:39 Tactical Preparation and Goal Kicking
35:33 The Pressure of High-Stakes Kicking
48:38 The 1987 World Cup Experience
55:12 Emerging Talents and Injuries in Rugby
56:06 The Birth of the Rugby World Cup
57:36 Amateur Days and Fundraising Stories
01:02:57 The Role of an All Black Selector
01:10:55 Understanding Steve Hansen’s Coaching Philosophy
01:17:51 Reflections on Regrets and Learning Moments
01:20:54 Personal Life and Career Reflections
[Music] Welcome back to G Brands. I’m Andy Row and as usual, I’m joined by All Blacks legend Justin Marshall and Walabe’s World Cup champ Jeremy Paul. And today we are joined by an absolute legend of the game. A hero for a lot of kids growing up, especially in the 80s and 90s that followed the All Blacks. It is the one and only Grant Fox. How are you, mate? Thanks, Andy. Hey Fox. Kind of you. A very, very embellished introduction, but I’ll take it. Thank you. which part the the on [Laughter] well I’m a hero one week on all of us was a world cup a fox you won the bag you know so we’re we’re going to dig into your career today but um today there’s someone else’s career that’s even more important talk us through what has gone on this morning set the scene who is he and what’s he done well my son uh our son dozen my son Ryan has just won a PJ tour event yeah so um How good is that? Yeah. Amazing. Um, amazing. We just been up to, we were up in America for most of March and um, I had a chance to go and play Augusta, which is why I went up. Very special. Very special. Pause. Pause. Oh, no. I played with Ryan and and a member and and one of his sponsors who’s actually an old school mate of mine who lives in Atlanta Beach in Florida and done well in life and he he sponsors Ryan. So, that’s how this sort of whole thing come together. Then we So, then we just went to the players championship and then to the spar and came home. So, um, not bad. Yeah. Know it was a pretty good little trip and playing Augusta was pretty special and another golf course called Seol down by Jupiter which was amazing. Um what’s Augusta like to play on? How does it hard? Is it long? I’ve been there before. Um once in 23 to follow Ryan when he played and I’d been there in 2009. I walked the golf course and the undulations are amazing. Um but um so it’s hard on the legs. Oh yeah. For an old fellow like me with an artificial knee. Yes, it is. But we do have caddies, but it’s very it’s hilly, but it’s it’s just a demanding golf course, you know. I mean, the the the best players in the world, even in good conditions, 12 under usually wins it. I mean, that’s not that deep, to be honest. Um, so it’s just the trick of Augusta is it’s wide enough off the tea within reason. Some demanding T- shots, but it’s not bad. But your approach shot’s key. If you miss a green, getting up and down’s really hard. If you don’t hit it in the right place on the green, it’s hard to tw particularly for hacks like me. But it’s an amazing experience. Why is it so hard off the green though? What? It’s fast and it’s slopy up and they have different tiers. So it’s like you got to hit one over there, you might have to go down and up and around and over. If you if you miss it by 40 ft and you got a 40ft putt, it’s not a straight putt or even a gentle flat curling one. It’s got it’s like this. So it’s just hard. And and Ryan missed Augusta this year after doing so well. He was leading at second round last year, wasn’t he? Uh first round actually. First round he was leading. Yeah. Yeah. And then um and still was in the top 10 for two days and then um just had a bit of bad luck in round three and lost his head a little bit and didn’t really quite recover from that. But it was also very it was a windy windy tournament. So um yeah, it was demanding on all the players. But my segue into that is simply what he needed to achieve today. Yeah. To get into the PGA Championship. Um, incredible result, wasn’t it? And what he had to what he had to go through. Does it surprise you um to a degree how followed Ryan is like my Instagram, the social media, the messages you’re already receiving of what a following he has in New Zealand. Like people are just like Ryan Fox, it’s in the news and I mean it’s nice. I mean I’m I’m aware of it. Um but I think part of it is is the way he conducts himself. Um, and he takes after his mother in that regard. Um, but but but he’s always he’s always available. You know, Massie, you know, guys know when the media hits like, “Oh, I don’t want to talk to them and then we had enough of them.” Yeah. Right. Ryan’s always available almost to his detriment sometimes. He’s also brutally honest. You know, if he’s playing crap, he won’t um he won’t dress it up. He’s just, you know, I’m playing crap. And I think people appreciate his availability and his honesty. Um, and I’d like to think his his modesty. Um, and you know, I mean, he’s the the most important thing that I love about my son is he’s a good human being. You know, he’s a he’s a good husband and he’s a good dad. The rest of it Yeah. The rest of it’s cool that he does what he does, but that’s the most important thing for me. So, you know, and I again, thank my wife for that. Did did you see him like as he was growing up think to yourself, yeah, he’s he’s got something here, right? Um or was he just one of those battlers that just worked really hard? He was um he I mean as a youngster he was talented with hand eye coordination, right? So anything that involved hitting a ball or you know tennis, cricket, whatever. Um as from a very young age, he was you know it was apparent that he was quite coordinated in that regard. Um so that helped with you know he played rugby but he was actually a much better cricketer than a rugby player but golf was always something from age 9 or 10 that just interested him. So that’s about when he started 9 or 10. Yeah. And he Yeah. And look he progressed to playing um inter club penants golf as a junior when he was 15 and then progressed to the senior team but he didn’t play tournament golf till he was 18. Wow. Um in terms of a national tournament is that late? Yeah that’s late. Yeah that is late. that he just wanted he he told us when he finished school that he wanted to chase being a professional golfer and we said yeah cool we’d love your passion for it but realistically making it from little old New Zealand that ain’t that easy so go to uni and get something behind you um so he did um and so he didn’t turn pro till he was 24 or got the opportunity to qualify as a pro and he just worked his way through so he’s been doing this for a while now but um you know I mean I Adelan and I pinch ourselves about the stage he’s on and how well he’s done. And he does too, to be perfectly honest. I mean, even today when I’ve just spoken to him before I came in here, it’s because it’s been hard to get hold of him. He just said, “I didn’t see that coming.” So, and and I said, “Well, in a way, I did because we shoot five or six under on um I thought if he could shoot five or six, he’d be in the hunt.” We shot five and he was in the hunt and then he got it done. So, we’re we’re on the morning of and he’s just chipped in in a playoff to win and win the tournament, which is amazing. And um in true traditional G brand style, well, we’re here at Pod Lab and we’ve hired a Pod Lab waiter and I’ve put in a little surprise. He’s going to come in any minute now with some bubbles for us. Oh, I hope. Yeah. Don’t know what the weight is going to be like. They’re already doing it. Exactly. This is too significant though. It was just incredible morning. And you’ve come into this podcast given what Ryan’s just achieved, which we really appreciate. So, look at this. What this dominy? Congratulations. Thank you, mate. Well, for Ryan, not for me. No, you did the important thing. I’ll help drink for Ryan. Oh god. Oh god. Where are you, aiming? Who’s on the other side of the glass? He’s done that before. Someone just got shot. So, so what’s the tournament that he’s won again? My beach. So, it’s an alternative event. So his status based on where he finished last year, which was down near the bottom of the qualifying, didn’t get him into the signature event, which is a big one at Philadelphia Cricket Club this week. So they always put an alternative event on. Yeah. Um and that’s the one he’s won. So all the big boys are at that one and everyone else is at Myrtle Beach, but it doesn’t matter. You’ve still got a PJ tour win. And I think someone text me. I think Ryan is the ninth New Zealander to win a PJ tour. Um man, that’s that’s low numbers, isn’t it? a PJ tour event shows how significant it is because we’ve got so many golf courses in New Zealand like why aren’t we population mop yeah but yeah I mean I mean still population New Zealand’s big problem is scale I mean I remember Ryan growing up and we traveled to Aussie an awful lot to as an amateur right um and Aussiey’s just got they’ve actually to be honest mostly you go to the sand belt the golf demands the golf courses produce better players and Aussie golf has got more financial resources they can invest New Zealand golf did a great job with the mega resources They had I mean we’re eternally thankful for what New Zealand Golf did, but it’s tough. You’ve only got 5 million people. It’s really hard to be able to to get the funding. And thanks cuz they’re like anybody else. You can’t live beyond your means. You haven’t got enough. You can’t spend more than you earn. You don’t run a household like that. We’re trying to run a country like that. I still can’t figure that out. You know, local government, our local governments trying to run themselves spending more than they. I can’t figure that out. It just doesn’t work in any in any sense. So New Zealand the sporting bodies are no different you know. So anyway cheers for cheers to the fox family. So does that go that sorry JP and equally uh we know that in true Grant Fox D Fox style celebrate your son. You’ll be probably having some form of a party tonight. We will be. So we want to contribute to that with a nice bottle of central tago pan from Peragan. My favorite. So yeah take that home wine when you’re when you’re celebrating that tonight. appreciate it. Thank you very much. Let’s go into your story now cuz you start I mean you were surrounded by greatness from the start when it come we go back to your high school days. You you went to high school with the great late Martin. He’s a good mate. This is going to get to me cuz it always does when I speak about Marty. But I met Marty in 1976 in the third form. sat on in the big assembly hall when we started uh on a pew together right beside each other and that’s how we got to know each other and I was a border Marty was a day boy um his um they lived in Tidarangi Grandon Road um uh Tidarangi I still remember it and I used to go out quite a bit and stay with Marty um so I played first 11 cricket with him played first team rugby with him he was in the I mean he was just one of these guys who was so talent he played first 11 soccer one year in the year he wanted to play first team rugby and he He was a winger. He’s a when he was 6’2 and he was um very hand eye was incredibly good and he was quick and Marty just had as you know you know how much time he had batting. He had that sense in rugby he could just see pictures and understand and we had this thing sort of going that we understood each other really well. But he he was a great mate. We spent a lot of time together and I was actually um I’m going to text Lorraine shortly because I still have contact with her that Marty would have loved today. Yeah. he would have absolutely today. So, yeah. At school, you progressed into the Oakland team quite quickly, didn’t you? Like, what was your what was your process there? Um, my I’d mean I had three years of grandma first at school. Um, you know, we won three championships. Graeme Henry was a coach. That was pretty helpful. He was quite useful. He was quite useful. That’s the start of his coaching career as well. Uh, well, yes, correct. Well, he had Yes. Yes. Correct. He coached Graham his first team from 75 to 80 74 maybe 74 and I think there’s only one year he didn’t win the championship like it was just wow I know 77 he didn’t so here’s Ariel I was sort of went the other day um actually no it was Gary um the 77 team had they didn’t win the championship they had three all blacks the the teams I played in 787 and I only had one all black which was me and we were better team so Garren Gary Allen went and John Mills was a hookup. Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. Mily obviously origin but played for Yeah. Milsy. I saw Mills the other day at Grizz. He was your teacher. Yeah. Saw Millsy the other day at Grizz Memorial. I hadn’t seen Millsie in ages and and John Buckham was another one who played 15. John Buck Buck who played for Canary Canterbury. So um anyway um but I sort of Graeme said come to university finished and went to the university club. He said come with me. My father actually wanted me to go play rubby in the bar plenty and work on the Gford orchard. And the grammar club was knocking as well because that’s traditionally where the grammar boys go. The grammar old boys club. Yeah. Um but I went with Grant cuz it was pretty I don’t think it was a hard decision to follow that. So um so I had 81 um first year senior straight out of school. Played Orton Colts and all that and then John Hart was the Orton coach in ‘ 82 and he picked me and um I guess you know how old were you? 19. That’s young Foxy, isn’t it? Yeah. Especially back in those days, right? Like you cuz you it was this old school mentality. You had to have done done your time. done your time, you know, before you you come in amongst and then no one will talk to you for two years. Now, we’ve spoken about this before, folks. You’re coming in and calling the shots like in our generation, right? Like it was it was a bit like that. Like when you came into the environment, it was cuz now it’s all cuddles cuddles, right? Like it’s all We didn’t have a cuddles. Absolutely not. Like a doggy dog world, right? Like you had to prove yourself on the field before they would even speak to you. So what was it like walking into that team which was stacked full of Yeah. Um well not that many at that time then hadn’t done particularly well for a number of years. Um in fact I’m not sure they actually won the champ NPC started in 1976. I’m not sure had ever won it until we won it in 82. They had no finals in those days. We had to go to Wellington and beat Wellington to win it in 82. Um, so Oakland had it won by our plenty as you might recall of the first winners when it first became the NBC in 76. Um, but um, the most intimidating guy to walk into, walk into that to was Andy Hayden. Oh my goodness. It would have been um, but but and a guy I mean he made a lot of us. He well he helped make us because he was so demanding. I can remember you do kick Andy I always used to go to training early to do my kicking practice. Not just golfing, all all the types of kicking. make sure I was aligned with the coach in terms of the game plan. So, you know, what what cards are we dealing with, how we play them this week. Um, Andy, I’d the start I beat I would beat Andy there. Andy didn’t like that. So, and Andy Andy at this stage, Andy at this stage would faster. And Andy would have been early 30s. I think got to 35 before he retired. You couldn’t in the end, I couldn’t beat Andy to training. He had come out as a matter of principle. Yeah. And do do his work, right? Um, and and when and demand rider, kickoff practice fell. If I didn’t put on the right spot, he’d just stop. Right? Or in a team run, if I didn’t do it, he’d stop. Have another go. He’d stop. Have another go. There’s no such thing as play out. If you weren’t perfect, start again. Start again. And and so you learn. I mean, you probably heard Fitzy tell this story, JP. Like that was like Fitzy couldn’t throw in. So he said, “Go down there.” um and get in Abberrombie who was a reserve. I can get a to come and throw in and you come back when you’ve learned. But what then Andy did, so he treated Fitzy pretty tough. But then what he did is he rung Fitzy up and said, “I’ll meet you at the Oakland domain at such and such a time and we’ll practice this.” So that was that’s what Andy was like. Like he was incredibly demanding, but he was also incredibly giving, right? Um and he didn’t expect he expected of himself what he expected of everybody else. So when Andy talked to you, he he lived it and breathed it. It wasn’t do as I do as I say. It was actually do as I do, right? And that’s the best form of leadership. You know, Joe Smith talks about it like actually it’s one of the best comments I reckon I’ve heard from a coach is I can’t do what players coach. Like players coaching is something I can never do. Like once you start building that experience and they can pass it on and it was the cornerstone of our Brumy success was those older players being able to coach the younger players. So Andy Hayden, anyone else around that time or was it just Andy? A guy called Alen Harvey was the captain number seven. Um and he was a good man. He was actually in the air force um Elwin and went on to become a commercial pilot with New Zealand. So great leadership. Um you know John Hart as a coach um John was very good at setting culture. All right. And and and the what you built around the team he was demanding too hardy like really demanding. I wouldn’t say he was into the weeds and the detail cuz he trusted us players to do a lot of that but he he was very demanding. Um and it’s what we needed. Um and then what happened is the players became very demanding on us. Look, we’ve JP you’d know this so much. You know this the great teams you played in. You you you can you can you can be arguing with your best mate and pushing and cajoling, right? And everyone thinks that you actually don’t like each other, but you do and you leave it at the door. You leave it there, right? And people couldn’t work that out. It’s like, you know, I had so many arguments with JK on the field and people couldn’t work. We’re great mates and people can’t work that out. It’s like, well, it’s a form of respect, man. We’re just pushing each other, mate. Playing with George Grian for like 11 years of my life, man. Like in that stare, like I actually I I actually got got into him one time, like at training, like I actually turned around and turned to him and said, “Mate, you just [ __ ] worried about your own job.” Like this one cuz he had JP and I was like running and about 10 minutes later, I cpped this [ __ ] smack in the head like a scream like and everyone just stood and went and they were like, And I was just like, “Oh, I won’t be saying that again.” Like, but it but of course great mates like because we cuz that respect if you’re not hard like you you set the standards, right? Like with respect. So So obviously that was then and and do you feel like obviously an explosion of talent came through at that time as well. But you guys had obviously set the cornerstone of the culture and your and your willingness to work hard. So when did it change? Yeah. And I well uh uh with Oakland it changed cuz like we we’ve got the biggest talent pool of anywhere in the country. I wouldn’t say that we always got the the selection of that talent right. That’s what John Hart got right. Right. And that’s the first thing you do as a coach. Selecting is the biggest job you do. First job you do it’s the biggest job because you don’t get that right. Not much not much else you can’t find. So Hardy was brilliant. He had good people around him. Um in terms of the coaching group um Jim Blair was a big part of that. late Jim Blair who started with Canterbury and um and and Jim just revolutionized how we trained um and so we you know cuz in those days we did a lot of running we did distance running on the roads that’s how we trained the gym was foreign to us you know and little guy like me I started playing rugby for Oakland at um 72 kilos dripping weight 72 72 kilos dripping weight yeah I mean we’d be licking your lips as before I know but that’s back then weigh 5 kg as well. So um um and that was cuz we we didn’t do I mean if I played rugby nowadays I reckon I’d play at at high 80 high 80 mid 80s and it’s not my natural well it’s probably my natural weight now but but back then it wouldn’t have been um but I’d have done that through diet and and and gym work because you had I would have had to to deal with the the the collision nature of the game that that it’s near now. I mean the athletes, you know, um Loey, Richard Lo was 108 kilos playing as a prop. Yes, you he wouldn’t play 100 kilos. Yeah, he probably say his head here, but I remember Steve McDall was 102. But strong as an Fitzy played, I think when Fitzy first got back, he was 92 kilos. He was. Um so it’s just different, right? The athletes are now different. Bigger, stronger, faster, and there’s a word I didn’t use is is skillful. Now that’s because I I think a lot of the athletes are, but not all of them. the forwards are playing the game differently because there’s the way the structure is that’s demanded of them. Um but not necessarily more skillful and I don’t mean that as as a criticism the modern day player they’re they’re better in every other sense. I just don’t think necessarily as a rule they’re always more skillful. Yeah, totally agree m totally agree. We were just at a cafe prepping for this interview, Foxy, and um Marshy brought up that that Oakland side of the uh 80s was one of the greatest, if not the greatest provincial side ever to have played the game in New Zealand. Um and he also wants I said it really quietly cuz we’re in a good cafe and looked at my surroundings first, but yeah, I I have to say that it was Andy really really wants to talk about the Ramley Shield. Yeah, I wanted to talk about the 85 game. Yeah, that cuz it was considered one of the greatest games of rugby. Not only rugby ever played but obviously classic shield encounters. It must 52,000 people at Lancaster Park and and a lot of the people sitting on near the sideline. They were basically over it was over fault. Yeah. And and was a ball boy. Oh, was he Andrew was a boy in that. Can you believe that? Yeah. I didn’t know that. You didn’t hear some cheeky kids like Come on, Fox. We’ll get to it later. you had been robbed by a uh a ball boy in in your in your future from from after that. But um what was that like that that Well, we’d been down in ‘ 83 with a side we had a good side in ‘ 83, too. And we to be honest, we went down expecting we’d win and we we got our ass handed to us. Like they the Canterbury thumped us. Um so we’d learned an awful lot from that day. Um and Canterbury were in the we were at their 25th or 26th defense, I think. So they ealled the old great Oakland side of the 60s I think had won the held the shield for that long. And so we we we had a good team and we were we were prepped and ready to go and we were up 24-0 at halftime and then we scored Miguel scored straight after halftime by the by the post and I missed the bloody conversion and but at 28 nil you think you’re home and hosed. Holy [ __ ] we went home and hosed at all. You know finished up 28-23 with us scrambling in goal. There’s still people we bloody see. We saw at Grizz’s memorial still moaning about bloody jemage of uh was it Craig Green going for the ball or Green? I think Terry Wright and JK were back there as well there and there was people standing. Oh yeah behind the deuts and like that they’re going for the ball and dramatic. You know what I remember most about that? I mean that was a special day for us and we went on to have an amazing tenure of the Shield. But the thing that I really impressed me after that game is Grizz bought the Canary team into our dressing room. Wow. And I’ve never forgotten it. Never forgotten. Yeah. Um that he bought the team in. Yeah. And we all had a beer together. It was like a handing over of the baton. It was remarkable and I still remember. So we lost the shield. We we lost the shield to Wetto in 93. Yeah. Um and you know Graeme Henry was a coach and he was like only second year in he was beside himself. Um, and I just remember thinking, well, you know, with 61 defenses in 8 years, we had a pretty good run. And 61 and and White and we’d had it for eight years. White kid deserved to win that day. They were better than us. And I just remember I didn’t feel disappointed. It was like, well, it was always going to come to an end. So, I just said to Ted, “We’re going.” And in those days under the West, you could just walk was easy walk just to the um entrance way across. So, we went and had a beer with the White Cat Boys, right? And just this is what we do. And I remember what Grizz had done with the Canterbury team. And that’s the that’s the ethos of the sport, isn’t it? Yes, it is. It is. You know, okay, we’ve been at Battle Boys and we’re disappointed, but you know, to the victors go the spoils and we’ll go and honor them. But for them to see you walk in the changing shed like you saw those Canterbury guys that had formulated an amazing history shield, you’re like, correct. They they respect what the Shield’s about and they recognize that on the day. But they but they respect what rugy’s about. We go to battle, right? We go to battle JP. We go to battle and for 80 minutes we’re going to bash the [ __ ] out of each other. But after that we play the same code. We’re basically the same people with the same values. Well, why can’t we enjoy each other? Well, we did that 17 times and my 17 Blues League Cup games always had a beer with the All Blacks after I mean you got that part of rugby in terms of the ethos. So, growing up in New Zealand, proud moldy boy. Um, living in Pyro. Pyro and Oakland. Yeah, I grew up in Pyro. We played in Pyro Valley. We’re dead. We’re dead. Got the shield down mate. The whole town stopped. Like you remember being there, mate. 100%. I was sitting there next to Terry White. Um we had Zenzan Brookke was there. Vain Touala, Michael Jones cuz I I got to catch up with all these guys later, right? Like I was having 12 at the time. Um but the other part of rugby was you guys stopped the whole we had this parade like this like like you should have seen the floats. That was so bad. It was the Temp’s Valley, man. But when you guys rocked up to town, man, all the kids that were there at your training, you guys, I mean, that’s the other part of rugby. What that Oakland side did was you guys just everyone just got to see their heroes. It was huge for Tim’s Valley. Shield fever was a big thing back just just to for those listeners that don’t understand what Ram for the Shield is, cuz we don’t want to assume knowledge people outside of New Zealand. It’s a it was the prized possession. Yes. For so many years in New Zealand, wasn’t it? And it was like if you if you won the Ramford Shield, you had to win it away against the current holders and then you would defend it every home game. But uh preseason you would often take it on the road. No, not preseason. During the season during the season I think we had three years at home and then um Morris Trap and Bramman decided we need another we needed a different take it on tour. So we took it to King Country and Taran T Valley and they have got a chance to win the Grand Prize in New Zealand rugby. It was an awesome awesome like couple of days because a you got a day off of school like because Oakland came to town like but the whole town man the whole town was there at the game like yeah I remember I didn’t play that day. No no you weren’t there but it was a few I was there I just I didn’t play there was a few mala just sort of started I think around that time. No the shield is still really important for the teams. It doesn’t have hold the same status in the media and Super Rugy’s been part of that, right? It’s because that’s a different level again. But you talk to any of the players who play Shield Games, it means just as much to them as it did to you or me playing. It does. It still holds its aura for th the players. It just doesn’t quite hold its aura in the public space as it once did. But you try telling the players who play for that. And 52,000 that were there in 199. But just even in in in Por you know health and safety wouldn’t allow 52,000 now but we I had to jump ahead like because we were talking about it in the calf but 84. Yeah. You got to play the Lions. No I didn’t. I played the I didn’t play the Lions. The Lions were here in 83 for Oakland. 83. 83. Yeah. No I played the Lions in ‘ 83. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Um and we So you would have been what? I was 21 when they been 83. I’d have been 21 probably by the time lines here. So I got picked at 19, but I I’m my birthday’s in June. So when I got picked for Autton in 82, it was earlier in the year. So 19 going on 20. The Lions would have been post my birthday, I’m pretty sure. So probably 21. Yeah. Wow. What was that like? Amazing. Cuz I mean the Lions are massive brand, aren’t they? I mean, were they as big back then? Yes, they because it’s a rare brand. They play once every four years. That’s the beauty of the Lions. It happen. It’s the it’s the scarcity of playing them that is the attraction and putting all those unions together and picking the best out of them and they’ve got a massive history dating back I don’t know how long decades um and so and they so they’d come now they come to each they only go to Australia, South Africa and New Zealand and they go once every 12 years little was a little bit little bit looser in those days but now it’s basically every four years they pick a team and they play that’s that’s what happened. So 83 was the time they were due. They had last been out to New Zealand in 71, I think. 12 years. So it was 12 years. Yep. 71 was the time prior to 83. And 71 was famous for that Canterbury Lions game, wasn’t it? Oh my god. There was some fights in that thing. Well, those were the days. Those were the days. They were the days. Canterbury just literally kicked the living [ __ ] out. Yeah, man. You fell on the wrong side, man. You got the [ __ ] kicked out. I remember that. We we were lucky enough to beat the Lions that day and I can’t I think it was in Oakland. Yeah, we beat them 1312 and I kept the drop goal late in the game to win. Of course you did. But it was a wet shitty day and it was, you know, an option was a scrum close to the goal post. It was it was a simple option to take. But my opposition that day is a guy called Ollie Campbell. Played for Ireland and and I he what he did that day to us stuck with me. Even though we won, what he did resonated with me cuz Ollie guided them. We’re under pressure most of the day. We just happened probably because the conditions are rainy and shitty that it helped us so we could deal with a lot of the stuff they were throwing at it cuz they were hard. It was hard for him to be as skillful as they wanted to be. But he just steered them around the park like we were under pressure just through Ollie choosing option kick there pass offload there. It’s like it always stuck with me and I thought well it’s what I try and pride myself on in my game. And I remember going to the aftermatch um and Ollie came up to me and sort me out for a beer. [ __ ] Didn’t know me from Adam University. So that you know again the rug the values of rugby and a lot of sports to be fair. Um and but it was it just it I thought he was one of my toughest opponents. Not physically cuz I would never be that tough to deal with physically or someone running at me. But mentally I just sat back and went I didn’t really sit back but I was just going wow this guy’s pretty good. They’re putting us under pressure there, there, and there. And yeah, this podcast is brought to you in partnership with SY. Sy is a brilliant app created by the people at NordVPN that gives you instant internet access with eim data plans in over 200 destinations. It’s extremely convenient if you’re ever traveling abroad. There’s no more waiting in line at airports to buy local SIM cards or remembering to swap out your old SIM with your new one. SY makes sure that you can enjoy your travels and your rugby matches abroad to the fullest and you won’t be confronted with those extortionate roaming charges when you get back home. We travel a lot with this podcast, so the SY app is perfect when we land in the UK or when JP touches down in New Zealand or Rabs Marshy or myself head over the ditch to Australia. All you need to do is download SY in the app store. Then when you travel, seamlessly purchase the data for that country. Use the code Gbrands at the checkout to get 15% off your first purchase. We’ve also added the details into the podcast episode description box below. So go and check it out. How much how much focus do you put on which areas of your game as far as like cuz I remember you being a tactician, right? So h how much work do you put into that? because it wasn’t like you were a Carlos Spencer. You’re the other end of the spectrum, right? You were very tactical. Uh what did what did training and preparation look like to get yourself into that situation? I mean physically I told you how much I we started. So there’s not much I wasn’t blessed with speed and I wasn’t bless blessed with braveness. Um I would argue that but but it was really simple. I had a couple of philosophies involved. One is if I’m the best goal kicker, they got to pick me. So, I worked really hard to become the best goal kicker. How did you do that? Hard work. What What did that look like? Um, practice, um, work, honing technique, and just hours. I mean, I love kicking a raby ball. A lot of people think I kicked it too much. They’re probably bloody right, but I love kicking a football. Didn’t matter was goal kicking, dropkicking, punting. I just wanted to be the best I could be at it. And the only way you can be the best you can be is you got to put the work in. You know the only place where success comes before work is in the dictionary, right? So it’s pretty simple. So it was just hours going to training early and don’t in those days we worked for a living. It wasn’t what we did as a vocation. Plan footy is what we did. So we were excited to go to training every day and not we didn’t go every day. We went Tuesdays and Thursdays and played on Saturdays, right? Um because it was an escape from work cuz we you know we game was am so we were really excited to go and do that. Whereas the guy’s training every day of the week and there’s no way they can be excited every day of the week. That’s just normal. Yeah. Um but that plus tactically, right? I knew I couldn’t run like Carlos could or Mertz could or Wayne Smith could. Um but if I was this the smart guy who dealt the cards, right? And the the way I did that um was um working with the coach to understand even before training ringing a coach making sure are we clear on what we’re doing. Morris trap in particular. I spent a lot of time talking around this. Um and then I would I’ on a and I would often write mostly I would have them everything written down. We had a move menu like was filled up from midfield to blind side to open all through fill up an A4 bit of paper. I’d hand write and that was like swatting for an exam every week. Every week. Every week. Pretty much every week I’d have it all done. We had far too many moves in the modern game. They’d say too much clutter, right? And that would have been right. We had all sorts of things going on and I my job I just used to um swap them during the week and on a Friday night lie in the hotel room close my eyes on the bed meditate to some degree but it was more about running through picturing we get a scrum here what are we doing we got to line it here what are we doing right um um where are we trying to go to achieve what how what are we painting for the backfield by doing this that and that where will the space then be so for me it was like studying for an exam because I got a great deal of pride out of dealing a car that be succeeded with. Of course, you know, I mean, I got criticized for not screwing many tries. I scored more first class tries than most people realize. They’re all before I was 25 to be honest enough that didn’t get too many, but I got a great deal of satisfaction with Terry Wright and John Cerwin, you know, or John G. Yeah. Just help. Well, they have. The guys up front have done an amazing job and we’ve done but we’ve just got ourselves in this situation. We’ve planned for it. This is the car deal. We execute the best we can. Oh [ __ ] that was quite good. Yeah. You know, so um that’s what I prided myself in. Yeah. So 189 games I believe for Aland scoring 2,746 points, right? An average of 14.53 points before you even go on the field. Before game is even started, you’ve already got 14 points on the field. Do you know that kicking success also helped John Eels kick that wonderful? I do. I do. We had him on his on our pod and he said, “It’s your fault.” Yeah, I remember when when I just stopped playing, I got invited to um and we had a great rapport with Queensland. We I got invited up there um and I don’t remember all the detail, but just to go and um do some work with with Queensland around kicking um tactical stuff and all because we used to have that tournament, right? That super six. It started with super six. Super six then came super 10 then came super cool resort I think. No, no, I went up with B. I got they they paid they didn’t I didn’t get paid but they said we’ll bring your wife and kids up. So we went up and we had a good few days and I had a great rapport. We loved you know the all those boys and a guy called Terry Doyle I think was a co at the time and I’m not sure whether Terry’s still alive or not. Um anyway I I just remember going so I went and did a goal kicking clinic with the with the kickers at the end of one of the days and next one I become aware of he rocked up. Yeah. And he had kneeh high boot like ankle boots as well. So we just went he say show me what you do. We had a we probably tweaked a couple of things and typically you know nobody cuz he’s perfect right he was pretty good at this too. Then he nailed it and it was 2000 was it beat us and and he talked about it. [ __ ] yeah. I wish he hadn’t said anything but anyway. Thank you for that. Let’s talk about um your goal kicking process. Um because I want to show you a clip here. We’re going to jump ahead. We’ll come back to how you got in the blades, but I just want to jump ahead to this moment here. If you could set the scene. Uh tell us what’s happening in the game. Oh, I know what this one is. Tell us what’s happening in the game. I was there for this. This is um this is Lancaster Park 1993, isn’t it? Or not correct. I’m pretty sure. And I think um who was their number eight? Um Dean Richards got penalized, I think. and he disputes to this day that Sandy McNeel was a ref I think. Yeah. Gave us a penalty. So this is about 40 40. Is that Joey Morris? He was going about it. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz we were behind at this point. That’s the young fancy. We were behind at this point. This was the first test in 93. So you were behind. What stage stage of the game is this at 2 minutes to go there within the last five anyway. Um so I had a almost dead dead in front with a chance to kick a goal. They say there was still time on the clock after this, but it’s like we get this, we got a good a good chance. First test of the year typically know how how rusty we always were. And this was and the lines are on to this is Lancaster Park as it was called in those days. So what’s that? 43 m probably. Yeah. No, she’s long enough. 40 45 maybe. But seven. No. No. But but anyway, it’s it’s about my range, right? It’s about my range. Call it 50. So anyway, I mean, we got the I got the job done. So look at the old school sand. Yeah, I love the sand. Okay. talk us through the process the when you get a chance like this is what you this is what you practice for right this is absolutely what you practice you you know the magnitude of what this means so you can’t hide from that and and so but you go you go to process focus I know it’s cliche but it’s true so you just go through I’d be in trouble with the one minute timing probably nowadays so I would have had to adapt you got quite a long run up though yeah uh I was usually six and two six and two six and two and a half to be honest and a breathing routine to try and get me to relax just as I go. So you watch here it’s one last breath in and go. Any talk any talk self talk. Yeah. So selft talk is head down follow through. That’s blown over the dead ball. It’s so head down follow through is like what what are you telling yourself? Watch the ball. Doesn’t mean the ball’s stationary or try and watch the ball. So um and look it turned out I wasn’t in this situation very often. I did not have to try and kick a goal late in the game very often to win that. This was a start. But this is the British and Irish lines. Foxy first test pressure. The whole country, whole world’s watching to win the match. And to win the match. Wow. There was still time. You do you do it. Talk it down a bit. Stop it. But that’s my job. That’s my job. So whenever I did kicking clinics, the first thing I’d say to a group, don’t matter how old they were, do you want to be the goal kicker? because that was the f because you got to be prepared to put yourself in that situation. Do you want to be if you’re lucky enough to play at a at a at a high level, do you want to be in a situation where there’s 50,000 people at the ground, there’s millions on television, and the game rests on this. Because if you don’t want to be if you don’t want to put yourself in that situation, don’t be the goal kicker. No different than the hooker throwing the ball in JP, right? You got you’ve got to get that right. you how would you feel late in a game? Two minutes to go, five me long. I’ve done that down. The principles the same. No, but you go through the same process, right? Like it’s always your process because particularly if you’ve if you’ve stuffed up the last couple, right? Like say if you missed a couple of goals or you stuffed up the last saw four from six, so it became five from seven. That’s not a bad return, but it’s not real sharp. Well, no. Particularly if you’ve missed the last two, right? Like so it’s coming up to that next thing and and and obviously having um that process that’s underneath you but like looking at like looking at that like so that was 1 nil so you guys went to 1 nil second game what was it what was what was the second game was at a park we got our ass handed to us 20 points to seven oh so we we didn’t turn up right we didn’t turn up and they did was it each week did you guys play no I think Oakland I think there was a game in the middle of that with Oakland um after the second test a Saturday game. So I think we went one test, two tests, Oakland on the following Saturday and the third test. I think that was right or it might have been the other way around. I’m not entire Oakland beat them too that day. Um I mean it’s something I’m really proud of. I’m pretty sure. Did you play the Oakland game, too? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s what we did in those days. What? Oh, you played Oakland and then I played I played the Lions four weekends in a row. A lot of us did that. A lot of us did that. something this is something I’m really proud of. um that Oakland era that I played in was lucky enough to play in I’m pretty sure we had 10 played 10 international teams 110 110 so Aussie in ’92 beat Aussie in ‘ 92 beat that was a good Aussie team too man in ’92 they went to South Africa that was the start of the good team that was the start of they won the 91 right and then they won the um and then they went to South Africa and beat South Africa in South Africa for the first time in 20 odd years like that was a good that was the Timmy Horren I think was still there. I might have been might have been 90. I’m trying to remember now. Maybe it was 89. I’m still trying to remember if Kuny going to Fitzy. Like there was Barbie afterwards. I’ll have two sausages. Yeah, that was 89. That was it was that ‘ 89 was it? That was the start. I mean, we were coming probably starting to get to the end of a good all black. We’ been very dominant for a while and that but that was the start. You could see Aussie were building, right? You invested in some youngsters. There was going to there was a plan. Yeah. and and we’d won the first two, but we lost the third at Athletic Park. So, you debuted for the All Blacks 84. You you came into the squad and then it’s like it’s a weird sort of first three years building up to that World Cup for the All Blacks, isn’t it? Just take us back to that because it’s not like you came into an All Blacks team that the public necessarily liked, for one of a better term. Is that correct? um some of the public um depends if you want to believe everything that was in the media and I choose not to believe a lot still nowadays to be honest but that’s just an opinion I have um um look it we had lost to Australia in ‘ 86 had a really good side in ‘ 86 and we lost the series 2-1 um um we had been to I mean we were due to tour in ‘ 85 a couple of bloody smart asses from varsity and that was my club had taken um us to the high court somehow talking about the constitution of New Zealand rugby to foster and develop the game and thought that going to South Africa was somehow counterproductive to that. Um and Marca you know that touring South Africa particularly in those days and going for decades before was the great challenge for an all black was the ultimate challenge. You know it’s like you might get that once in your career if you’re lucky and we were denied it and then they organized a rebel tour in ‘ 86 and everyone everyone but David K and John C from the original team selected went on that tour. So this is from that 86 team that lost to the Aussies. Uh yep. Yeah. Uh well we went to South Africa in um a around April April May probably. Yeah. Um so we didn’t play Aussie till later on. So we so all of us have been on the Cavalier Leers who were banned for two tests. So um oh there’s the baby blacks of course excuse me. So and the baby blacks was France. So this is leading in um and this was in ‘ 86. But I still think that was the making of the 87 team. Even though we had a lot of adversity, you learn more from adversity than from success. So what we did is we exposed a whole lot more players to the All Blacks um than we otherwise would have because a number were forced to sit on the sideline through getting banned for two test matches. So Brian had to pick a different team. So Fitzy was a guy who benefited. In fact, he benefited because Brucey Hemer was picked and Brucey got injured and Fitzy ended up starting. The rest is history, you know. So but out of that and you put you bring um you go forward a year. So there’s a whole lot more players exposed at this level and you bring Brian Lahore was smart enough to bring John Hart and uh Alex Wy into his group to help with that select the team and so the two preminent provincial coaches at the time with the most successful records. So, we got a blend of the two teams and now I reckon that was a recipe for our success that all of a sudden, okay, there’s some guys who missed out who otherwise might have been picked, but the other guys got a chance, the baby blats got a chance and some of them said, you need to pick me. So, we got a really good outcome out of that through that adversity. Um, and yeah, it was rough at the start, but you you build you build your support through um the way you conduct yourself and your success. So l Brian Lor BJ rest his soul was just um he a man of amazing manner um former all black captain he just the way he held himself not just with the group but in the community was just resonated with everybody. I mean we got taken out of Wellington to go to a place called Piraninoa. Um, we ended up getting bulleted and this this is BJ in the middle getting bulleted in the middle in the middle of the tournament, right? And we’d be traveling really well, right? BJ had worked out got to keep these pricks grounded. Fox and Shelford, you’re starting with this family. We thought we had no idea it was happening and it was and and it was brilliant. Right. I mean, BJ’s ability to understand that was just remarkable. We also um developed a game plan through Jim Blair being involved too. You know, we weren’t the biggest and the strongest, but we thought we could be the fittest and the most skillful. So, develop a game plan to handle who we thought we’d probably get at finals at the f the business end of the World Cup. And that was the whole strategy and it turned out pretty good because they most teams struggled to live with us. Did you get to that? Sorry. Before you get to that, cuz I’m fascinated to hear about what that was like in ‘ 87. But what was it like getting off that plane in South Africa as a Cavalier and playing? Yes. South Africa over like you know who I just saw recently. Actually, I was out in South Africa. Just to digress a uh Danny Herbert. I know. What a champion. He’s a beast. Oh, but what a good guy. Amazing guy. And look, if if he I remember watching him thinking, “Holy [ __ ] he plays in the centers that way.” Watch the the VHS tapes that they finally put out of those games. I I don’t think the rest of the world outside South Africa understand how good he was. Yeah. If they if he had been able to play the number of test matches that he should have been allowed to play if they hadn’t have been banned and off the scene between 73 and 92. Yeah. 91 90 91 I think. Uh 92 92. Um this guy would go down in and as a legend of the game as a center. He was a beast of a man, a hell of a good footie player. He was a handful in the Cavaliers, but all we wanted to do, Marie, was test ourselves. Yeah. And and to be honest, the mindset of the group was that we knew what we were doing was a bit naughty. Um but but we felt unjustly denied. And I and I remember thinking when I got the opportunity to go, it’s like I armed an art about it. It’s like I may never get this opportunity again. Absolutely. Um in my career. So what a chance to test yourself and develop yourself. That was my mindset. So, okay, I’m on the plane. Um, and we got a thorough examination and didn’t come out of it um as well as we wanted to, but we were a side that was I believe generally if we won it was easy to justify um and we did and in the end, so you cop a bit, but you know that’s life. Was it 3-1 in that test series? 3-1 and we we went to the last test 2-1 down. I mean, we played the first test at Newlands and we were the better team and didn’t win. went to Durban in the second test and um they were the better team and we won and then we went to Loftess and and sort of got got it handed to us a little bit. I played the first three and then um because um Pinery wanted a goal kicker and Smithy wasn’t a goal kicker and the fourth test we were going all out attack so I got dropped and rightly and Smithy got played Wayne Smith and and we played all of footy that day. We played all of footy and couldn’t win the game. Um, you know, a lot of dubious decisions. I was waiting for that. But anyway, you know, someone tells a story about the referee there, Foxy, do you know, mate, the Brumies? Yeah. Uh, Super Rugby started in 96. We didn’t win our first game till 2000 until they went to neutral referees. Oh, really? Well, but the Brumies the Brumies played the 97 final against the Blues. No, no, no. But we never won a game in South Africa. Oh, in South Africa. Until they went until they went to neutral referees. Actually it was Patty O’Brien was that was our Yeah. Yeah. Then we had Paul Honus the following week and lo and behold we win two games in South Africa. Um but let going back to that like yes Cavaliers 9 1986 then you come to the World Cup. Yeah. No 1987 pressure. Yeah. Having played in a home world cup. Yep. Extraordinary amounts of pressure. Were you guys thinking you’re going to play Australia in that final? Because obviously they Serge Blanco scores that amazing game of footy. One of the best games of footy you’ll ever see. Yeah, it really was. And that’s lost in that that’s lost in the translation, but we we generally believe it was we were likely to meet Aussie in the final, right? So that that was the plan. I mean pressure, yes, but but more the pressure because of our history and legacy and what had happened in ‘ 86. So, we were up against a little bit with um uh our place in New Zealand society because of the Cavaliers tour. Right or wrong, that’s what it was. Um but we’re in the first World Cup, so you didn’t know what to expect. Um I mean, Eden Park, we played on I’m pretty sure it was Friday the 20th of May. I’ll be proven wrong here. Um we played Italy. Yeah. The first game. First game. And Eden Park Eden Park was only half full. So, no one knew what to expect. Eden Park was only Eden Park was only half full. It was only half full. Wow. Um and and um is so apathetic towards So the first try in that game was what? Michael Jones. Jones. Yeah. No, Michael Jones scored that. First try was a penalty try. Oh, was it? There you go. Bit of trivia. You go on a space. Michael Jones scored the first real try, but I’m I could be wrong here. Wrong way down. I’m pretty sure the first try is a penalty try. You would know. And and Jones and Jonesy scored um and took a pass off me to score. Yes. Uh um and we we weren’t up by much at the 30 minute mark, but on the second half we we went nuts. I still think the thing that lit that World Cup up was JK’s try. Yeah, 100%. I reckon that’s where the whole dynamic of the World Cup changed. I really do. Um because there’s a great I’ve never forgotten this video clip. So you can see there’s two players in the video clip trying to follow JK. So JK’s doing this weaving. Yeah. One guy’s following him like that’s Michael Jones. The other guy following is Alan Win but Allan’s run straight he’s got he’s not cold enough to do that and and and um got a big heart AJ and boy he’s a guy you want in the trenches every day of the week when you’re playing but AJ wasn’t the athlete Michael Jones was and it’s still it’s an enduring memory of mine and I have I have one other enduring memory of that tournament we played Fiji and Christ Church um and it’s it’s again because that was the emergence of Michael Jones um and and a lot of ball was miss, give it to Joe. Cut the ball up, set the rut, get midfield, give yourself some options. So, we did this again. Joe breached and we’d had a short line out and Michael was outside him. Michael got an offload and ran and the you should this picture. It’s it’s in my memory that balance of this athlete the the just running and he just ran Craig Greenon. So, last defender. Thank you. like just I still sit back in awe for a forward sit back in awe of that. You played with Richard McCor. I played with George Smith. Yeah. These those type of athletes, right? Like I mean Mccor and Smith were amazing. They weren’t the I’m telling no disrespect. They weren’t the athlete Michael Jones was. Not as an athlete, as a player. Yes. They competed up as an athlete. You know, they they knew their craft. Jones was an incredible athlete. I just remember from my period watching that and watching that World Cup. You’re bang on what you say about Michael Jones because he he was, you know, you had you had guys like Buck Shelfford, you know, you had your wetens, had your Olo Browns, whatever it might be. But but then you had this guy that was just playing Yeah. He was a different athlete. He was he was doing things that a back could do, but he was still over the ball. It’s interesting you say that cuz I genuinely believe he had said to Michael Jones now in four weeks time you’re going to play a test match at center and and we we’ll train you and give you give you that time not play he was still I still believe he could have done that now Richie couldn’t have done it nor could George played inside center in one test because they got did he really okay he was inside but I’m I think Jones could have Michael could have done that if he’d said to him four weeks time you’re playing that test match at that position and we do some work I still reckon he could have done so he was well above his time. Like he was Yeah. And he was a John Hart selection, right? I mean, Hardy’s ability to to to see tell him he picked John Cohen out of third grade. He John [ __ ] hadn’t even played senior rugby. He’s done third grade for Maris and he got picked to play for Oakland. It’s a famous story. He’s a So look, I know we Sorry, Andy. I know we’re jumping ahead, but did you take that into your selection when you were all black selector? Like did you like yourself? Because because we picked out a super rugby those days. So John Hart was the Orton coach and and and your selection um pool was out of club rugby. Yes. So we as a normal city you don’t see club rugby and we didn’t we picked teams before the NBC ever started. So our selection pool was out of super rugby. Yeah. But still in terms of talent though, right? Or was did John Hart have an actual selection like criteria? Did he say okay athleticism slash you know position or the time and space they create for themselves or time and space they create for others JP probably all of that but I don’t know I’ve never spoken to never spoken to Hardy about it right um I mean the closest I can think of the time we did that as the All Blacks was picking Bowden Barrett right when a very young age and just saw a future and this is something Steve was incredibly good at right is is understanding seeing young talent understanding how to nurture you can just put him and say go. Good luck. God bless you. He knew how to nurture. Um and and Bowden was probably in some ways the closest I can think of picking a young guy that you could see, you know, he wasn’t at a ceiling now. It was going to be way up here, right? And we need to get this kid in now, right? And one of the closest one I’ve seen to him in more recent times, Ruben Love. Sure. He just had a [ __ ] run with injuries, right? But I can see so much of Bowden Barrett. I can He’s a talented athlete. Beautiful. He’s incredible athlete. He can play 10 and 15. Anyone who can pass like 25 me that way someone on the someone on the big big statement. I spent time with Fuzzy, right? And and Ruben L was on our radar big time and he he just had a he’s had a terrible run with injuries. If he hadn’t have, I would say now he would be he would have been a staple in the All Blacks for, you know, for a number of years already. Do you think cuz obviously he’s like dabbled at at well he’s he’s known as a 10 as well, but he predominantly played fullback. That’s what Bod did. But from your perspective as a 10, is he as gifted and potentially? He’s potentially as gifted as Bod in my view. Right. Potentially. And we’re not going to know until he gets given the opportunity. Right. and and Raz’s group picked him and you know so he’s had but he’s just again he’s had this terrible run with injuries. He hadn’t spent enough time on the paddock both for the Hurricanes um or for the All Blacks. So hopefully Touchwood for him he’ll get a decent run. He can really show what he’s capable of. Still got to get picked and it’s up to that the selection group to pick him. But this kid’s talented. It’s amazing to think though to to go back is it took JK’s try and then the emergence of slime because I I just remember so vividly watching Michael Jones. You know JK was amazing in that tournament and even even the World Cup final as you were and and the whole team was and the so the country did get momentum behind your team, didn’t you? World Cup was a it came out of bloody nowhere, didn’t It’s like we’re going to have a World Cup. We’re going to like radio and the game wasn’t pro. People got to recognize the game wasn’t pro. So we we managed to all of a sudden go off full tours. They were still happening. But it’s like right what we’re going to do is we’re going to have a World Cup in 1987. Everyone goes I don’t think a World Cup contest was universally accepted in the in in the nations who got a vote around the D. Correct. I have a feeling that those up north genuinely mostly didn’t want it. We probably got I think we might have got support from Ireland. Yeah, we might have got one or two who who backed the southern hemisphere and I don’t know the history properly but I think it was driven more by the south than the north but we got one or two strategic votes around the table and look what it is now. Yeah, I mean it’s about the third biggest sporting event. No, it is in terms terms of watched in numbers. I think it was over two billion 91 right like the All Blacks. You said we weren’t going to talk about 91. No, I want to go back to 87. Trust me, just let me go. God, so much. So 91, right? You I love listening to you and McKenzie stories. Um the big link. Um he as a um all the dirty dirties used to go out on the sad day before the game with sign posters, tickets, all sorts of things and fell them right for the for the kitty. Yeah, cuz you guys were all amateurs. All am. And you had no beer money. So it was like all these guys got set up. They were selling pins. You turn you turn your blazers inside out and go out in the public. Actually do that. Did you did you guys catch on to that in ‘ 87? I mean, we’d been Well, we were doing that on tours regularly. So, I started in ‘ 84 and but I remember going to France and and the UK and 89. We’re doing it regularly. I mean, it was just part of we got we got I think by the towards the end we’re getting 60 bucks a day, right? And it was you’re given an envelope every week with 60 300 bucks a week or what what is that? 400 bucks a week. Most of you couldn’t spend it because you you didn’t have to pay for anything. So normally you take it home and give it to give it this little fat envelope to the wife and top it up at the end of the tour by all the kitty from selling tickets. You do. So we all condiment to us. We didn’t give them away. They were pulled and they were sold and all in the kitty. So I can tell you a little digress on a little story here. And when we toured France in 1990 I was the So we used to have a committee structure that sort of ran the still happens. Brilliant. I was the king of the social. I was laundry committee. I was the banker. I did your whole I held the money. I held the money. Of course you did. Did you come across as a good? So and and I remember France because I got injured early and didn’t play and Simon Manx played the first two games and we weren’t traveling too well and I eventually I got back on the field for the third game got over my hamstring injury and we we played and we’d won and I got embibed a bit too heavily. I had a blue tin with all the money in it because when you when you in France in France in France you got given we we got given the whole time we were there when we arrived and got through customs you get on the bus we were there for I don’t know four weeks or 3 weeks we got everything in one lump not weekly the whole life. So the boys boys gave it to me. So their job was like and and we sold tickets. I built up the kitty right sitting in the bloody tin. I bought a blue tin right to carry it all. Um and the boys when they wanted money because I all the envelopes were name would come to me and say I need to take some because they wanted something otherwise I’d hold it. You would have to have a legend book. So what happened is so what so so what happened is I’d bloody um um um got on the plane. Um we got on the plane I had the blue tin with me and I’d put it up on the in the luggage compartment. Right. I think I was hung over as hell. And and just before we landed um sorry no sorry the bus to the airport. Sorry. the bus to the airport for a flight after the particular game. I put it up up and I was a backseat. I put up on the bus, got off the bus, you know, got through, got on the plane just before we came into land on the plane flight to the next Karen Crowley, who was sitting behind me on on on the um plane said, “Foxy, going to get some money off you when we land.” I all of a sudden, oh no, [ __ ] I’ve left the blue tin, the sacred tin. You know how much the blue tin had? $80,000 New Zealand dollars on and I’m sitting here going and so I’m panicking right I am absolutely panicking. So it turned out that um we what happened um I got off the bus I told Sturgey John Sturgeon love him to bits Stury Serie Stury said it’s right Foxy will find it what I didn’t know is everyone else in the team so the sweep of the bus Mari when you get off the bus the duty boys sweep the bus they found the blue tint of course didn’t tell me they didn’t tell me they didn’t tell me so I’m panicking I just got no idea so that night we had a team meeting right and the blue tin turned up at the team court or court session cost me a lot of money to get the no cured your hangover real I know I was [ __ ] myself 80 grand no whatever it was but it couldn’t 80,000 New Zealand all the all the cabbage as we called it all the cabbage from our day plus all the tickets were sold far out well Dan actually in the 90 in the 99 world cup Um, uh, Dan Crowley, God, God love him. He, um, he had a couple of, like he had these really like high business bankers come in and go cuz we obviously made the final and said, “We’ll buy all your tickets.” Yeah. Um, and a couple of signed jerseys and every player will get like I think it was about 5,000 quid each. Wow. Like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He had something like 200,000 in his safe. In his safe. Yeah, but he’s a guy that we’re going to get on the podcast cuz he was actually an undercover cop. When he was playing when he was playing for Queensland, they couldn’t put his photo in the program cuz he was on a stink. He was 6 months under under in a biking gang. Like, oh, you should hear the stories. He scared the [ __ ] out of me as a kid. You know, the old forwards, right? Like scared. But yeah, holding that coin, man. Holding that coin was like arguably the greatest job in the world. That Oh my days. Can you imagine? That’s such a good prank. And Karen Crowley’s obviously in on it. No, everyone else knew. I was the only one who didn’t know. I was the only one who didn’t know. Hey Foxy, some money. I was hung over as hell. You didn’t have the blue. Oh, that’s Can we fast forward to being a selector? Yeah. When you How does that process work when you get the call to come in and decide, yeah, I want to be a part of the All Blacks again? No, I didn’t decide that. Steve Hansen decided that. So, um I still remember exactly where I was. I was driving in my car uh and the All Black coaching uh selection process was the coaching selection process was going on with NZR. And I was coming down Bond Street up to go across um New North Road into Sanding Road near Eden Park. And on my screen comes up a number I don’t recognize. So, I answered and I always answer my phone. Grant Fox. I don’t. That’s all I say. Foxy Shag here. And I didn’t know Steve that well, but I’, you know, I was commentating prior to that and I’d run into him quite a few times and we’d had, you know, a number of conversations over a beer or three or a wine or three. Um, and you know, we got through the night. He said, “I’d like you to be an independent selector. You know, if I get the job, would you do that for me?” And it was like this a bolt out of the blue because I thought my job was done because I was asked um to help when Graeme Henry got the job. He wanted me to, you know, he asked me if I’d consider going coaching with him for the All Blacks. Is a little known story. Wow. Yeah. Um and I’d finished with Oakland and I never I I never I didn’t want to go coaching when I finished playing. I got asked to help Oakland after a few years. I got shoulder tapped by the C. Would you come and apply for the job because Oakland was struggling? Um, and I when I, you know, just like you love Canterbury, I love Oakland, right? It’s my team. So, I thought my ego dictator, I think I can help. And the business was at a point where I thought I could manage my time to do that. Um, so I, you know, talked to the interview committee at Oakland Rugby and blah blah blah. And then Jeff Hipkins, who was a co r and said, “Would you consider being assistant coach?” I said, “Well, I hadn’t thought of it. It’s not the job I applied for. I applied for. Who’s the coach?” She said Wayne Peac said don’t I know who Wayne is but I don’t really know him so I need to spend some time with him to understand so I went and met with Wayne it came pretty apparent to me that we would gel so that’s how I started coaching and you know we won three challenges in five years with Olympic Graeme helped us Graeme helped us because you know we sort of won one out of three and then Graeme came along we won the next two so we’re not going to let lot a lot of credit Graeme but Graeme Graeme had left Wales he was looking for a job right and he I was looking for a job and um and I remember the CEO of Wen Rob which may have it was either Jeff um or it may have been David White at the time I can’t quite remember but asked Wayne if he would consider taking Graeme Henry on to help. It wasn’t a hard decision. It was like well didn’t really work out but yeah he was pretty good you know anyway um and then maybe my time with Graeme had formed a view that he thought that I might be okay at this. I don’t know. But he asked me and I still remember um I’d said to Graeme um that I’m not going I don’t um and he hadn’t appointed anybody and but he had appointed the coach and we were going to his place in Lurine Avenue in Epson to have a celebration and I sort of armed an wasn’t sure and I needed to talk to my wife cuz a massive commitment and Adele said look you’ve played for the team um you thought your time was done now you get another opportunity and and she said will it come along? I said probably not. She said well you better do it then. So, I was sto I was in the car. Fight the Cavaliers. Yeah. And I rang I rang Ted and said, “Mate, um um you know, if that job is still open, then I’m interested.” He said, “Well, Foxy, it’s not cuz I’ve just chosen Wayne Smith.” And his best decision like what what a decision that was, right? Didn’t worry me at all, but I sort of armed an Aard. In the meantime, Grant went and got Smithy and you know, well, how good was he? I think you would have been so then Steve Ram. So I just said I just need to talk cuz time commitment not the same as coaching but so the same issue. Well this the team you love you thought your time was done. I said yeah I’d love to do it. I’m honored to do it. So that that’s how it started. What first of all could you educate us on what an all black selector does cuz many people won’t have have a clue. You know obviously you think coach has ultimate decision assistant coach. How many selectors? Two. There’s only three of us. Was Steve Hansen a selector? Steve Steve was head right. Ian Foster is the assistant coach and me. Yeah. All right. So, none of the other coaches were selected. Was there advice sought? Yes. Yeah. But if you and you two Yeah. like chose a player and then Steve Hansen was like, “No, I want another player.” So, so I mean, so my job at the start, I think there were two parts. One is he generally wanted independence, right? Because he he said, “Foxy, we coach these guys.” He said, “We can get really close to them and quite attached.” He said, “I want someone sitting on the outside to bloody challenge us, right? to make sure that we aren’t getting, you know, um that that that what we’re seeing, you’re seeing, and if you’re not, you need to tell us. Our selection process was simple. We we um I mean, we went we I watched a lot on telly. I got the computer analysis and watched games. Um we went to a lot of games, right? Um so all that information was available through and you trusted a lot of what you saw and what you felt and in discussions and I’d ring Micron when I was talking about props, right? how can I pick props? So, I talked to Chrono a lot. He was he was the he was the he was the, you know, the scrum coach. Um, but in when we came to selection, we were generally really aligned. Would we have debate about some players? Yes, obviously. And a lot of it depended up, you know, you’re picking a squad sometimes as big as 36, you’re going into year two. It’s like getting the balance right. I always like to have a philosophy. We need we need to be three deep in every position. Now, that’s not a specialist because that means you need 45 players. We can’t pick 45. So you need my view, we needed three guys who could play Lucat. So some some versatility within that like James Okconor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So So that sort of thing. We only to the best of my knowledge only ever had one and and I can’t even remember the player we were debating one and but it was a loose forward and we couldn’t get to an agreement. And Steve was always a default. He’s the boss. So you get what you want. But Steve was really good. He never forced his hand. It was always we get to this by consensus, but we were struggling to break this down this one time and I can remember sitting in a room at the um the hotel we’re in in Oakland. Mike Cron was in the room at the time and while Chrono wasn’t a selector, you know, we valued the input of these guys. Um Smithy might have well been there as well. And we just couldn’t break this deadlock. And Steve said, “Well, let’s have a vote.” And I said, “Fuck off.” So, I don’t want to vote, mate. It’s not how we do things. Let’s have another bottle of red and keep talking. True story. So, we had another bottle of red. Um, and not each, not each. This is the best shot ever. We shared it. Um, and I he just so he went and he said, “Crono, what do you think?” Well, I think and and all of a sudden said, “So, yeah, okay, that’s fine. I agree with that.” And I said, “Mate, I obviously haven’t sold myself very well. That’s what I was trying to tell you.” So, I obviously wasn’t very good at it. Four bottles of the only time. That was the only time in all the years. And I spent 11 and a half years, eight with Steven and three and a half with Fos. The only time we ever really were just couldn’t break a deadlock and I didn’t want the vote cuz he was always the deferment and he should be. He’s the boss. Is there ever a genuine bolter out there, you know? We all feel for us every all the public, all the media, everyone picks their side. So you’re you’re actually now the guy that’s selecting the side. Y and we always go, oh, could be a bolter. Is there such a thing as a I don’t not for us there’s not because we’ve done all the homework. Not bolters for us. No. Right. So, we’ve done all the work. We back what we do. But for for people who don’t see that coming, of course, that’s the bolter. And that’s the good story, isn’t it? That’s the great story. That’s the great story. Right. And so, we probably we probably picked the odd guy who they would deem a boulder, but for us, they never were. Can I You mentioned before you you love Steve Hansen to death. Uh you’ve obviously got a different perspective on who he is from the maybe the general public or the media. Can you give us an insight into like why you love him to death? Like what’s he like? I disagree. I think that I think when Steve was chosen as all coach, I think people some people struggled to understand why they would why he was selected. Um but he he is um how am I going to put this? Um when Steve is the most emotionally intelligent man I’ve ever met in my life. He gets people. He under He got that from his dad Dez, right? Who coached for a long time, not at a high level within the club situ. And that’s where Steve learned off his dad. And Steve got people. He was and Steve did things by asking questions all the time. All the time. He never told you anything. He would ask you a question and quietly description quietly lead you to a point where he thought you needed to be occasionally if if you surprised him he’d accept that too, right? Um but he knew the game. He understood the game and the game was really simple for him, right? Um but um he was about people. I I remember sitting time and time again in the old days when we used to go into the super rugby franchises twice a year and you’d go and the All Blacks and you talk to them and all of that and one of the All Blacks might be struggling. Um there would be a reason why he’s struggling and Steve knew the reason because he was an ex- cop so he did all his homework. That’s right. and he would he would you sit around the table and he would ask the players um certain things about his g their game, but then you’d get into that guy’s not playing well, there’s something else going on and it’s not on the field, it’s off the field. And Steve with his network, he got he always found out and and so when he got to that point, he could ask the players, right? Um but time and time again, I saw him do this about you, you know, what are you working on? You know, how you think you’re going, son? Yeah, good. What are you working on? Yeah. So and but the most powerful thing at the end of the day he said he would always say what did you hear you get the player to say and Stephen would never tell him he’d say what did you hear today right and so the player would say this is an ste would finish by how can we help you it’s really powerful because around our group with the coaching group we had this was the expertise so you need to go and see Gilbert you need to go and talk to Chrono that’s powerful it’s really really powerful because a player sometimes would think come out of that and go I’ve just been smacked, but it doesn’t feel like it. It doesn’t feel like it. Like he he understands his men incredibly well. He understood each individual, didn’t he? My my kind of one of the things, you know, you go through your career and you regret the odd decision that you make. Yes. Yes. And uh one of my decisions that I regret was when we were in CRA and um Steve was assistant coach to Robbie Deans. Yeah. And Robbie Deans told us before we’re getting on the bus, we’re playing the Brumies in CRA. Cracking hot Brumies team. You know, to me, one of the biggest challenges is super rugby and Robbie comes out and goes, “Mary, you’re off the bench this week.” And I’ve been playing [ __ ] well. We won in South Africa before and I did not take it well. And you know, you’re under pressure for your black spot. I was going to be playing against George Gri. He said, “Oh, no. We we need to make sure some of the other halfbacks get so we’re going to get Ben Hurst to run.” That’s [ __ ] And so, um, I sked No, classic sulk. 100%. So the team got off the bus at the training ground. Been there and I stayed on the bus. I did that. I did that. I did that. I did that once in my career. I did. Yep. I did that too in France in ‘ 86. I did the bus. What happened? Um because I’m not alone. I didn’t get picked and they picked Frano and I sold. Never did it again. BJ picked the team. Yeah. Um and I should have recognized why they did it, but I sold. Yeah, I did. I can’t believe that. They’re so good. I’m the only person when I’ve ever told this that nobody else has ever done it. I did it. Got it. Hang on. I did it, too. Like, do you know Oh, you did it as well. 100%. Put a team a room full of sulkers. I never did it. We interviewed Brumies interviewed uh Steve Hansen before he went to Wales. Really? And he would have been the Brumy’s coach, but they took too [ __ ] long. Yeah. George Gri and Steven Larkham and I think Bill Young were extra players on the selection committee. Yeah. And Steve Hansen like only had a few days and he came and met and we were like so excited we started talking and going Steve H. And we were like yes and then they went to go back to him and he goes nobody’s just taking the Wales job. Sorry. Like we took too long like I think it was four day we had a 4 day window and he could have been the Brumies coach 2001. A big thing Graeme Henry was on was was um um transitioning from his time to the next time. Right. So the next coach is in my group. Sure. And that was Steve. Steve. Yeah. Um what a coach. Yeah. I mean he was mate and he and I sort of have he actually text me today from Japan about Ryan. I still have contact with Steve. I love this man to bits. Yeah. So he I really do, mate. He um I so I’m sulking on the bus. going back to Steve because because it the reason I want to tell it is because it it actually what you’re saying is right like coaches to a degree they coach and they know the game but equally they got to be massive macro managers of their players now and they’ve got to recognize each personality and Robbie Robbie tried to get me off the bus I told them get [ __ ] I’m not getting off you know and then a couple of the senior players Marie get off the bus this is when they had already gone in recognized that I hadn’t come into the changing room I was still sat in the back of the bus sulking with my arms folded hit down. Anyway, what year was it? Uh, early 2000s. Yeah. And anyway, Shag Shag comes on the bus and he literally probably says a dozen words to me and it’s simply like, you know, do you know what you look like? Um, you know, you’re better than that and take this as a challenge. Don’t take it as an insult. Can I ask you one more thing? He might have said to you, “How does this help the team?” Yeah, exactly. And he said all of that. Yeah. And he said, “Come on, get up. Let’s go.” Yeah. And I just followed him out the bus, you know, and I look I I learned a massive amount from it. But he he had an ability like others and like not like others to just say, “Yeah, just to say the right thing.” But what how did he deal with it? He just asked you questions. Yeah, he did. You know, made you make you think this looks like probably doesn’t look that great. He goes, you know, what do you think you’re achieving? Yeah. [ __ ] nothing. Cuz I’m still going to have to be on the bench. I’m still going to, you know, and you know, come on, mate. you know, you’re part of this team and you still can be on the weekend. I went out when I got played played the 25 30 minutes in that game. Played really really well. I don’t actually remember that. It must have been 202. Well, you won’t remember because I was in the other team. You wouldn’t have seen me solving on the bus. I think that might have been 03 when we smacked you 50 odd points. No, we won. Oh, you won. Yeah, we won. But yeah, just like amazing guy to work with, wasn’t it? And and ability to to do things and say things at the right. He just understands people. Yeah. like um his EQ was huge. Yeah, it’s beautiful insight and thank you so much for coming on the show. You’ve shared so much amazing mate everything from your son to Martin Crow to your career to to shag at the end there, mate. Some amazing stories. I really appreciate your time, especially considering your son just did what he did this. Well, it’s a coincidental, isn’t it? And I’ already accepted this um a week or so ago. But you called us to say, “Guys, I’ve got some news. I want to come on the podcast today. Brian’s play pretty good at golf. It was I mean I just today for me is a you know being a privilege guys to spend time here and do that cuz it’s reminiscing is nice. I mean it is nice. It is nice, you know, but I don’t think we’ve probably had, in fact, I categorically don’t think we’ve had somebody that’s um gone across the game of rugby so much, you know, like when you think about player, you think about all black, you think about coaching, selecting, you know, you’ve done so much for the game. We didn’t we didn’t even touch on how you your retirement from broadcasting essentially last year, I I was going to stop anyway. I I’ I’d done my time because I I mean I finished with Fos in 2022. Um because and I wanted to stop off the World Cup in 2019 and Fos had asked me in Japan. He said if I mean apply for the job because he knew Steve was stopping. Um would you you know consider I said no mate and it wasn’t because of him because I love FOS to bits too. It was just because my time was done. I just needed to focus on other things. And then when Foss got given a nod, I’m the preferred candidate. He rang me and I was in the supermarket car park in my local community. He said, “I need your help for a year, mate.” I said, “Yeah.” He said he wanted Joe Smith and he knew he couldn’t get Joe at the time. So he said, “Would you help?” I said, “Yeah, I can help, mate.” Um turned two and a half years cuz it took him that long to get Joe and you know how good Joe is now, eh? So you know I wanted him. Absolutely. Um, but you know, I got to the point where I’d had I’ve been doing this since I was 19, 40 years with pretty much, you know, weekend a lot of massive commitment and it was just it’s time and so I I don’t spend a lot of time watching rugby or thinking about I don’t talk to the media nowadays as a rule simply because I’m done. Someone else and I’ve got grandkids and I want to spend time with grand. The true hero is Adele, your wife. Absolutely. She’s the one that’s put up with all this [ __ ] for put up with Well, we all know that. We know. We We know. I mean, look, we’ve had we’ve had a we’ve had a great life. I mean, the best decision I ever made in my life was asking Dell to marry me. And I’d like to think her best decision was accepting me. And she may beg to differ, but but but you’ve been through a few, but I’m sorry JP. I wasn’t trying I wasn’t trying to segue into that. No, no, you did it brilliantly though. It’s one of the absolute most I’m 40 years in marriage this year. I just celebrated 40 years and best best decision I ever made above everything else in life. Best decision I ever made. The other thing that just quickly before we let you go, Foxy, that we’re very big on in this show is um self-promotion. Um and uh obviously you’re still in the sporting industry with uh what you’re doing with your work and we’ve got a broad audience. So anything that can possibly come in to help you we would we would like to help with. So just give us a real quick brief on what your business is. Very I mean I’m CEO of a company called Monster Vision and in simple terms we’re in the LED infrastructure business mainly around rentals but also we have a sales part of it. So um we’re doing the new stadium at Taha one New Zealand stadium. So all the fit out all us were we’ve won that contract to do that. But but if you turn sport on in this country and watch the LED around the edge of the field, whatever sport it is, that’s what we do because we’re a small, you know, five million people. Yeah. You’d be mad to try and get into our business to be honest. What’s the name of it? Monster Vision. Monster Vision. Um but we do we do a lot of concert work and council work and corporate work through, you know, truck mounted hydraulic screens and bespoke builds we have with all the stock we hold in our warehouse in Oakuckland. So, um, that’s what that’s I mean I’ve been in the industry for since 1986. It’s where I started. I’m still I’m still doing it and I but I’m getting closer to retirement and looking forward to when that day comes. Well, thank you very much um for coming on the show considering a how like busy you are and then b how much time you gave us. That’s good. It’s been such been good to see you in ages. It’s been a long time. He’s probably on his previous wife last time I saw him at least at least. having two back, three back, one back. Oh well. And thank you very much for joining us. Thanks for watching if you’re on YouTube or listening on whatever platform you’re listening on. And we’ll be back again next week. [Music]
28 Comments
This was brilliant! Foxy rules…
Pretty lame hes sooking about a not going on 85 south africa tour during apartied. So soft.
Andy? Red chair
Either a big screen or a computer at each desk so you can all see match highlights. GR8 to see Foxy on the show. One of my favourite players. Loved watching Auckland back then.
That was a good one. Never appreciated how good Foxy was while growing up. But a great thinking of the game. And a true servant of NZ rugby.
Great podcast guys can’t be easy interviewing someone who thinks he knows everything
Too harsh on JP, joke once that's enough!! Not repeatedly!
Weird that he was prepared to go on when a bit drunk and then have a few more during the show
Reckon Nehe was a bit of a bolter in 2015 had a great NPC year before and amazing Suoer season but before was giving it a crack in League
That Auckland mid eighties early naughties is relatively the best non international side ever absolutely dominant
Great footy stories – Cheers foxy (legend)
Is possible that across the ditch we can get fox, shagg and Wayne smith to give their pearl”s of wisdom????
Stop laughing
I’m dreaming again
Great pod lads
🤙👍🏾🏄👀🤪🤣
Grant was a really good player, wish he could have played more against the Boks and in particular Naas Botha. Great interview.
Can I suggest a future interview with Murray Mexted.
Brilliant!!!
Awesome podcast- enjoyed that one thanks lads. You the man Foxy 👏🏽
Really great cast, really got to know Foxy.
27:24 Lions 77 was the one before the 1983 tour
Oh like the seedy little far right corner of the internet will give a accurate cross section of kiwis views, what a twat
I won money on Fox missing a kick. Only did it once and never tried again.
I used to get angry because Fox was heavier than me.
I loved Frano
Pirinoa!! The home of Māori All Black Ben Couch!
At what point do they talk about touring SA?? It’s not in any of the chapter titles??
So Steve Hansen was a cop not a coach😊
Kearns middle finger to Fitzy was at Athletic Park, Wellington in 1990.
Absolutely the best podcast so far, well done guys!!! Foxy is an absolute legend!!!!
Could All Black Legend, Justin Marshall shut up ?