Episode 72 – Mackenzie Hughes

Shane and Marty caught up with two-time PGA Tour winner Mackenzie Hughes earlier this year during the WM Phoenix Open in Scottsdale, Arizona. They discussed the work he’s put in to see ball speed gains, the keys to his consistent putting and how golf is weaving into his life as a dad and husband.

The guys from Ping, they’ve kind of shown me how much the equipment matters. I just love that I can hit any shot I kind of want. We’re going to be able to tell some fun stories about what goes on here to help golfers play better golf. Hey everybody, welcome back to the Ping Proven Grounds podcast. I’m Shane Bacon, joined as always by Marty Json. Marty, we got one of the the nice guys on tour joining us today, Mackenzie Hughes. Uh Mackenzie, lot of podcast uh have you had a lot of podcast spots in your life? Uh, I feel like since since co I feel like podcasts have uh really taken off and I feel like since then, yeah, I feel like the podcast I’ve been on quite a few since then and but like prior to that I don’t feel like there was as many and I feel like now it’s uh yeah, it’s coming up more and more requests and first time being on the Ping uh Ping podcast. I’m I’m excited. Are you a podcast listener? If I have the the right drive, um, I will. And if my kids aren’t in the car, uh, which is few and far between, usually it’s, uh, the kids TV is going in the back, so you can’t quite, you know, intermix the audio. But, uh, do like a good podcast and feel like it can like if you got on the right podcast on a nice drive, it can make it make it go by quick. What What type of podcasts are you into? Health and fitness stuff, you know? I like those uh you know those self-improvement ones um or motivational ones. I mean like maybe like an Ed Mlet podcast or uh I actually listen listen to a podcast um Jason Baitman Will Arnette Smartless. Yeah. So good. That’s a good podcast. Those guys are funny. Uh so it just kind of depends what my mood is, you know. Um like a Maple Leaf Steel. Do you do hockey podcast at all? Sometimes, you know, hockey or anything like that? Yeah, those guys are great. Um, so yeah, just whatever you’re in the mood for. But, um, there’s tons of good podcasts out there now and and tons of great content. Yeah, I think uh, a lot of the Ping Proving Grounds podcast listeners, they’re very into the kind we talk tech stuff, golf product design, club fitting, tour player interviews. So, this is going to be a fun one. Yeah. Uh, Mac to kind of go into some of the details of your gear. I think how you train, get ready for tournaments. I’m ve I’m personally very interested in your journey going from and I’ve talked to Mike Carroll a little bit. mutual friend of ours, your your trainer there on Yeah. Uh what you’ve done to kind of boost your ball speed in what you’re doing on the fitness side over the last uh you know whatever five five years or so. Yeah. Yeah. He’s been great. Um kind of changed the way I I looked at uh the fitness side of things. I think I had a pretty good handle on it, but just um a little bit different focus uh for what I’m doing in the gym. And uh yeah, it’s it’s nice to see it kind of uh come through on the golf course. Actually, I was just coming off the range where I was hitting some drivers and I try to do like, you know, small groups uh two, three times a week where I’ll be hitting drivers like hard with the intent to hit them as hard as I can. And uh it’s just a way to train that that speed. It’s like that speed is a skill and something you need to work at and consistently do. And I find the more I do that, if I can make sure I’m consistent with that, um it I can take that I can take that to the golf course. and you know going from a 1707 71 guy to a 178 guy like that’s that’s a big difference and um you know a huge asset around a course like this for sure. When you think about like speed because speed’s become such a big part of golf and you think about over the last let’s call it eight years. You know it’s really become like a main focus not just for professional golfers but for the everyday golfer as well. When do you feel comfortable when you pick up seven eight mile per hour ball speed and club head speed? When do you start to feel comfortable going out on the golf course in a tournament and feeling like, okay, I can unleash this one. Maybe you’re playing, you know, you’re playing Phoenix and you’re on three and you’re like, I’m going to send one, you know, right out of that bunker. Yeah. Does it take a level of commitment, you know, in terms of practice to feel that comfortable doing it in a tournament? Yeah. I mean, I think the the good thing about as you’re making speed gains, you know, it’s not as if you overnight go from 72 to 79. So that that gradual step up where you know one week I go you know I’m averaging 75 that week and then the next week I’m averaging you know just over 75 and then in 3 months I’m averaging 77.5 or you know and you just it’s slowly creeping up but like the the idea with when I am doing on the range I like to swing the way I’ll do on the course. So it just I’m I’m simply adding like a little bit of intent to hit it harder. Um, but typically swing within the same framework of of my swing. I’m not lifting up my left heel or trying to jump off the ground. I’m not doing anything like that. So, I try to make it as uh similar as possible to what I’m going to do on the course so I can at least bring that swing to the course. Now, there is an element of trust, too, because if you stand on the tea on, let’s say, 15, the par five, you know, and you’re going to gear back and went a little harder, well, you you can’t miss it really anywhere, you know, like you need left’s bad, right? Yeah. So, you need to hit a a really straight drive there. And honestly, distance isn’t a huge priority there because you hit a 330 down there, it gets pretty narrow and necky. So, you hit a 310 off a TE, which is not too difficult to do here in Phoenix. You know, you’re in a nice spot hitting a four iron in there. So, um you kind of pick your spots, right? Like, you know, 11T is a little squeeze cut for me. Preferably a little bit off the heel, little spinny. Um just get it in play. You get it in play. You know, I want that ball spinning left to right. Um so, there’s there’s your moments. You got to pick your moments where like, hey, this is a this is a full send or this is like a little, you know, feeler. Um, but I think you look at the the the list of winners here. Uh, you know, typically, you know, length is a big advantage to have. I mean, there’s some bunkers that, you know, like on eight, you know, when Rory plays here, those bunkers aren’t in play. You know, that’s a huge advantage for that hole. I mean, that whole right of the bunkers is tight. Tight. Yeah. Over those bunkers, you got the world. Yeah. So, um, I think it’s just something that it’s kind of opened my eyes to to know how important it is. And look, I know what’s coming behind me and it’s it’s fast. So, I’m uh just trying just trying just trying to keep up. I just played a practice round with uh the two Hoyard uh brothers and uh Yesper Spencson. And I mean, they had their quads out there all day, you know, 82 to 85 all all morning. And I mean, it and it wasn’t I mean, it was morning. So, I’m like I’m I was like, I’m not moving as good. And, you know, I’m probably in the, you know, low to mid 170s and they’re already cruising in the you know, mid to low 180s. And I’m like, that’s uh that’s different. So, uh I know, you know, that’s kind of the way the the game is is going now. And it doesn’t matter what they do to equipment, what they do to the ball, the golfer and the athlete will just get faster. Yeah. I mean, you’re seeing you’re seeing it throughout every sport. I mean, you think about how quick and athletic defensive linemen are right now. I mean, it’s so incredible. They’re running four threes, four fours. Marty, I wanted to ask you, I mean, obviously with stack and everything like that. I thought McKenzie said something very interesting about like not not over swing and just over swing like trying to kind of make a swing in practice that would be a swing on the golf course. How do you talk to people that are using stack in terms of that mentality where it’s not just I’m swinging as hard as I can as I’m practicing and then I got to go take that out on the golf course. Yeah, that’s where we have when in our training we have different intents and Mac talked about that exactly is just is you just there’s a certain intent you need to take and if you can do it on the range, right? And then one big thing we like to do, which is the guys were doing in your practice round this morning, is measure your ball speed on the course. So whether it’s, you know, a little radar you take out there. I mean, I think a lot of the guys using quad are probably just looking at ball speed. Yeah. Um, so it’s like taking that ball speed to the carry number, uh, but really just a couple numbers because they’re not lying it up for any club data. They just, you know, they’re just looking to carry speed, you know, stuff like that. Um, actually the PRGR that comes with stack or speed six is actually really good. I’m not I’m not sure if he uses it at all, but like next to my Trackman, man, the ball speed numbers are like they never miss. Yeah. I don’t I don’t look at club speed, but ball speed, which is really what I’m after, it’s money. I mean, you just slide that thing in your bag, pull it out. I mean, I kind of get some looks sometimes or like, “Oh, look at that little thing.” Like, you know, I got I got my quad out here and I got my little PRGR, but uh I’ve been a Trackman guy, so like that’s not real. You can’t bring on the course. the PRGR like just to get a few practice round numbers is is great. Yeah. No, it’s sweet. That’s what I like to do, Shane, is uh just if I’m playing nine holes in the cart late late in the evening, put our stack radar. It’s like the PRGR. Really good for ball speed. Just put in your cup holder. You can put it down on every single T- box because ultimately you want to you want to bring that speed to the golf course. Yeah. And I think the idea is that you you know you get more comfortable doing it the more often you do it. If you’re doing it in practice and then you’re doing it when you play a match with your buddies and then you go do it when you play a tour event like it just it just gives you the confidence this is okay I can actually go this fast and it’s still and I I actually like to use the mentality sometimes of like people say like and then the old way of teaching was like slow and smooth right like you just want to hit a straight hit straight but like if I asked a baseball player to throw a strike he wouldn’t throw it softer to make sure he threw a strike he probably throw a fast ball right he’s going to throw it fast to throw it straight you know and I just think that sometimes like we think that if you’re going to go faster, we’re going to be more crooked. But I’ve actually found that like when I swing it hard, my dispersion is as good if not better. So, but there’s also there’s a trust element to that. How about from a shot shaving standpoint? You mentioned, you know, hitting a little control cuts out there. When you’re trying to hit a far one, are you are you trying to hit it straight? Yeah, when I when I’m hitting it further, I’m I’m teeing it a little bit higher and generally that ball’s flying straight to maybe even falling left. Okay. Um just kind of what happens when I swing it harder. Um I tend to get a little bit more up on it and a little bit more right. Um but I know that I know that well that’s that’s kind of what happens and then you know my my stock or more you know teed down swing is a little more on top of it and a little more cut biased. Um so but again it’s nice just you just got to know you got to know your tendencies know what happens as you’re going to hit it harder. Um, but yeah, I think there’s still a time and a place, right? There’s like you get on certain holes out here and, you know, being 300 in the middle of the fairway is just fine, you know? So, just get the ball in play, find a way to get get out there. So, um, how crazy was it last year having three players from Ken State on that President’s Cup team? Like I was going through some of the teams this morning. It’s like, you know, you get Bama and you get Texas and you get these teams you expect them to see and then Ken State, you got three players represented. pretty cool. Yeah, I think um you know that was a huge point of pride for our school. Uh my golf coach uh her page um like that that’s just uh doesn’t happen very often or ever really. And um you know a Mid-American school uh and we’re yeah we’re not we’re not a Texas, we’re not an Alabama, but um you know we’ve we’ve held our own over the years and I think um you know we’re proud of that. We’re proud of uh you know the the talent that’s gone through there and um obviously a lot of Canadians going through that that pipeline. Um but yeah, it was such a thrill um not only to be on that team but to share it with you know two really good friends of mine uh Cory and Taylor and um yeah, it was uh it was a dream week. You guys uh I noticed you also traveled to South Africa uh last fall to play that event. How’d that come to be? Why’ you why’d you go down there? I saw you had a great finish and Cory did as well. Yeah. Um, you know, I think as I, you know, I’m in year nine now and I think it’s cool to get those opportunities and and to see other parts of the world and, you know, I’ve played on tour now for a while and I’ve seen lots of great places, but, you know, I hadn’t been down there and I just had the opportunity to go. They have those spots available to the 10 10 PJ tour spots down there and um, they got an invite to go down and it was uh, kind of a no-brainer. Uh, I just thought it would be a cool experience. I had heard nothing but great things. Uh, and we got treated awesome down there. Uh, Cory and our caddies and a couple others did a safari which was a really cool experience and just everything about it was really fun. Uh, animals all over the golf course. We were playing the one day um and we’re on this par three elevated tea and this like herd I don’t we call it a herd or a pack of chimpanzees just started like coming across the hole. Are you like uncomfortable and and well but they they I was like I didn’t think anything of it but they’re like oh those are those are those are vicious like you got to stay away from those guys cuz they’re they’re mean. And I mean, I had no idea, but like they looked they looked like they could be pretty aggressive. I’m imagining they could be. And then I was over a putt like 10 minutes later on that same hole and I’m just about to hit my putt and I hear this like growling and screaming and I’m like, “What is that?” And it was two chimpanzees like just like 100 yards away just scrapping like just having a fight over something. And uh I mean that was probably the first time my crew I backed off for a chimpanzeee fight. So hopefully they’ll hopefully last. Hopefully last but uh no it was really cool. I I loved it down there. Gary Player was the host. Got to meet him and um yeah, just a really fun week. It it feels like there’s a push right now from pros. I don’t know who kind of started this, but there seems to be, and you said it, you know, you’ve been doing this for a long time, there seems to be an appreciation or at least an interest in a little bit more global golf. You know, there’s there’s players that are more interested in going and playing in Australia around Australian Open and things like that. Go to Africa and play. Do you feel that amongst your peers that it’s not just the localized tournaments that you play each and every year, but to try to expand the horizons a bit and play elsewhere that you haven’t been before? Yeah. And I think, you know, in this career, you don’t really know how long it will ever last, right? You can get hurt and that and things can end abruptly. Um, you know, you hope that that never happens. But when you have the opportunities and you get to a point like I am in my career, I just think that you take those chances. take the opportunities and you don’t you just don’t look back. Um like my next one I’d love to do is Australia like you said uh go do those two back to back. Um you know I’d love them to be on like you know like Royal Melbourne and like you know like the the big boys. Yeah. Yeah. Um so maybe I’ll try and line up with one of those um you know those venues. But yeah, I think just just it’s just cool to go see those places. Um it’s cool to travel the world to do what we do. Um because like you said, you can kind of get very comfortable in the bubble of the PGA tour where I mean we travel a little bit but we’re very much within the US and um it’s cool to kind of expand your your experiences and you’re in your uh horizons a little bit and uh we’re so fortunate to do what we do. Um and now to have the alliance with the DP World Tour some of those opportunities open up a little bit easier like go play Wentworth next year. That would be something I’d love to do. Um I’ve heard nothing but amazing things about that. It’s like the basically the players of the of the of the DP World Tour. So, um yeah, just it’s fun to have those those opportunities and I think, you know, getting to my stage of my career, I’m like, I want to go do it now while I have the the chance and they still want me down there. Yeah. I mean, like Rory, you know, this winter Rory, it’s December and he goes on a golf trip, you know, to New Zealand because he’s always wanted to do that. When’s the last kind of casual golf trip you’ve been on? Um, it’s it’s it’s been a it’s been a minute. Um, do you have any interest in doing something or a place you haven’t played that you’ve always wanted to play? I I would like to do like a abandoned trip maybe one day. Uh, I’ve never done that. Um, people that ask me that though, it’s like I mean you have kids. Yeah, I’ve got three kids. Um, so I get to go home on a Your vacation’s kind of going home. Yeah. Like I want to go home and be home. Y um and then you get 5 weeks off in the offseason, you want to be home and uh you know, and I want to be also with my kids who aren’t traveling with me right now. So like it’s tough to just go home and then pick up and say, “Hey, I’m going to go play. I’m going to go play.” They’re not going to pay me for this. I’m actually for it. It’s a It’s a really tough sell to my wife. And also Charlotte to Banana is not a quick trip. Yeah. And also just like for me um you know, it’s not the right time. Yeah. But at some at some point that will there will be a time for that. You know, my kids will be in high school and they’ll be have their own activities and you know, maybe I’ll be home a bit more and that opportunity opens up one week. You know, I go for five days, six days. And um but it it’s it’s phase two, I think. You know, right now we’re so busy week to week, so many tournaments every year, but that will slow down and then they’ll open up a time to do that. Marty, do you have a place you haven’t played that you want to play? A golf course? Uh I think Australia. I haven’t been down to Australia. Australia sounds amazing. That’s a That’s a big golf trip. It’s a big It’s a big golf trip, but I mean it’s now you’re talking 10, 12, 14 days, right? You’re spending time. I mean, the obviously the the Melbourne golf is so good. Yeah. Yeah. If you’re going to fly that far, you’re going to be there for Yeah. Uh speaking of kids, M I heard your seven-year-old just got a set of Prodigies. Is that right? And how’s his fitting? How’s his bag? How’s his game? Um so he’s he’s seven years old. the the driver. We actually had uh it was funny. Uh was it was in 23 he had his driver cut down at the Masters. So we brought it to the Masters. He had it worked on at Augusta. That’s cool. So he had his clubs worked on at Augusta and I did not. I had no clubs worked on that week, but my son had his driver dialed in. So um he loves it. He loves his driver. His irons I feel like they’re a little bit big for him at his age. Um, so he’s got a couple like shorter ones that are non non-ping, but they’re just like a little bit better sizing for him. Um, he’ll grow into the Prodigy ones, but um, that driver’s awesome. The putter’s great. He um, and he loves it. Like he loves playing now, and he’s been to some pretty cool tournaments. He went to the President’s Cup, walked and he’s actually walked some rounds now. So, he’s walked uh, I think he walked four full rounds last year in 24. So, that’s pretty big at seven years old. like, you know, it’s a big commitment to walk a full round of golf. Um, you know, include some treats. You know, you got to get some treats along the way. Keep the interest as you go along. Um, but he’s actually into it now. He does he has it twice a week in like a group setting, which I think is great because you you have fun doing it. It’s not so structured, but there’s, you know, there’s information, there’s lessons learned, and then there’s that element of I’m running around with my buddies, too. Yeah. You know, and the winning team gets a little treat. And uh so that’s been a great great thing for him. And um you know when I ask him like like golf’s number one. He’s playing flag football, basketball, he’s playing uh baseball, but golf’s number one right now. So that’s that’s pretty cool. I mean the balance too. I mean Marty, I’m sure you went through this as well, but the balance of like being a golfer, being in golf, not wanting to feel like you’re pushing golf down their throat, but at the same time kind of wanting you like I’m dealing this with my son right now. It’s like wanting them to play golf with you. Y um so the balance is always kind of tough to to really refine, but it’s cool that that you’re at a place now where it seems like there’s there’s kind of good synergy there. Yeah, for sure. I mean, like I have no I don’t I don’t care one way or the other, you know, like I just wanted to him to experience all those things, experience all those sports and then just let him decide. He might not like golf, but he might love it. And if he does, that’d be a huge bonus, you know, because now the bandit trip is an easier cell, too. Well, that’s where my head that’s where this whole question started. Yeah. Yeah. Let me let me get to when he’s 16. Then we’re going to go on a family trip to Bandon. And then, you know, my wife uh she’s got a set of pings as well. So, you know, she’s wanting to get into it as well, but at the same time, she has the three small kids, you know, at home all the time. So, like even that it’s like when’s the time for her to go do, you know? But there will be a time and she will get into it at some point. And um it’ll be fun if we can do that in a family setting and just go to quail, play nine holes, have dinner, and uh even if it’s just play three holes, four holes, but just to do it together and make it a you know, a group effort and we’re all together. That’d be um that’d be cool one day. Super fun. Speaking of sports, what what were your sports? What what was your sports and when did you kind of go in on all in on uh golf growing up? So, I think, you know, I was kind of like my son where like growing up I played a little bit of baseball early. Um, probably only like, you know, let’s say a three or four year window where I played baseball. Um, played hockey growing up till I was like 14 years old. Um, which is kind of a right of passage in Canada. Um, let’s see. I played I played a little bit of volleyball in high school. Um, you know, in the winter months. Um, and so I I really kind of I did soccer as well, but I was kind of doing a little bit of everything. Tasted a little bit of everything, but um, I kind of found out like around like the 12 13 year mark that I didn’t love team sports quite as much and I was playing golf at that time. Um, I loved what golf asked of you because I felt like, you know, I’d go to the course and I could spend five, six hours by myself practicing and playing and like I like I found enjoyment in that. I found like that the solitude was nice and uh like I’m a social person with also you know a little bit of that uh intrinsic uh you know personality as well where I I can actually do quite well like on my on my own for quite quite a while and I found like golf just like you know was so peaceful and um I loved that golf was like just on you you know like you go put the time in you go you go do some work like but you know whether it’s going great or going poorly, like it was on your shoulders and like I felt like with team sports sometimes you get stuck with like teammates you didn’t like or you know these guys are putting in tons of effort these guys aren’t. Um so I just I don’t know that that was a big part of what drew me to golf too and um but I did try quite a few sports growing up when I was playing hockey at 13 14 I hadn’t really hit a growth spurt yet and like youth sports can be kind of tough like I’m trying to picture like what with comparison be like football in the states maybe. Yeah, like you’re 11 12 years old and you’re playing football. Well, there’s like 12y olds that are 6 feet tall and 165 170 lb. And then there’s 12 year olds that are 5’2 and 120 lb. And I was that that kid. You I was the small, you know, 12y old 13year-old. And I found like I’m playing hockey. I’m just I’m getting pushed around here. And I’m like golf might not be for me. Yeah, golf sounds a little better. And uh when I was like 14, I hit a big growth spurt and I was like I basically grew like eight inches in a year. I went from like being five foot three to almost six feet tall in a year. And then playing golf, I was like, “Oh, this is great.” Like I’m hitting the ball way further. And I went, you know, from kind of poking it out there to hitting some pretty big drives at 15 years old. And um but I think it’s like when I talk to people now, like I feel like I get that question a lot. Hey, Mackenzie, my uh youngest son’s playing golf. He’s eight or nine. Like, what do you what do you recommend for him? I’m like, don’t don’t specialize in golf now. Don’t don’t limit him to just golf at eight or nine years old. Play let him play sports. Let let him be a kid because you don’t need to do golf 24/7 to be really good at golf at that age. Um and they’re going to become sick of it. You’re you’re going to you’re going to grow out of the sport. Yeah. I feel like if you’re pushed into it or you’re forced to basically only do golf at that age and uh so I tell people all the time and tell parents like keep your kids in a lot of sports like let them have the balance um and let them decide a little later on like what it is they want to do because they might not want to do golf but if you push them into golf I don’t think that’s how you have success. Y like if you don’t want to play golf and your kid doesn’t want like they’re not going to like you have to want they have to want it and uh I always wanted it when I was a kid. my parents weren’t taking me to the course. I was like, “Hey, mom, like take me take me to the course. I want to go.” Yeah. Uh pick me up at dark, you know. But if if your kids aren’t telling you that, there’s probably, you know, there’s probably a reason why. And uh so I I encourage parents all the time like, “Hey, like let’s let’s let your kids play sports. Let them play what they want to play.” And at maybe 13, 14 years old, they go, “Hey, hey dad, I I really like golf and maybe I want to play a little baseball or I want to play a little basketball.” Like I’m going to like narrow it down. But they will tell you, you know, they’re smart versus them being pushed into the corner. By the way, you mentioned um football being like the hockey version. I was the same way. I was really small until like ninth grade and I grew. Yeah. Eighth grade about 5 foot tall and I went around the corner catching a pass and this guy that played safety at Baylor hit me, helmet off, fumble. That was the end of my football career. That was it. I was like, this is I’m not doing this anymore. This is I you realize quickly maybe golf’s going to be my sport or maybe tennis is going to be my sport. but I’m sure not going to be this for because this is not for me. Um it’s uh yeah, I mean it’s I think that’s a good message out there because I think we live in a society now where I want my kid to be this. They need to do this all the time. Y it’s not really how we work. I mean we change interests and you know as adults, right? Yeah. And I feel like the the culture around sports is is definitely different in the United States. I mean, there’s there’s I definitely noticed that coming from Canada that the intensity and the focus around sports, especially at a young age, like it’s ramped up quickly. Like, my son was playing baseball this past fall, uh, was barely seven years old and the coach is out there arguing calls on the mound with the other and I’m like I’m like, I can assure you these kids don’t care that much. Let’s let it let’s let it go, right? You know, and the parents you care more than they care and the parents really don’t care. So, like let’s let’s move on. Um, but yeah, I just think that that can kind of like take away from that can take take away from the kids’s enjoyment of it if it becomes too serious too early. And uh, look at seven, eight, nine years old. Yeah. I mean, we’re not moving mountains. Like these kids are just there to have fun, learn the game, you know, and h god, I just think it gets it gets too serious too quickly in my opinion looking at it from the outside. Like I see parents uh you know working with their kids at the course and doing certain things and I’m like and I don’t I don’t step in. It’s not my place. But you know I see it I can see it from the outside a lot. And um you know I just think if if it if if it was me giving advice I’d say hey you know I think less is more at that age. Let them have fun. Let them be kids. And then they figure it out. Mackenzie I want to We talked a little bit about your distance gains. uh and how important that’s been to you. Uh I think it’s been incredible looking at your short game stats over your entire career, uh strokes gained around the green, strokes gained putting, your stats have been incredible. What do you do to kind of maintain, have you always been a good putter, even before you got on tour? And then what do you do to kind of maintain uh what do you think your strengths are from a putting standpoint? So, I’d say like before I got on tour, um I felt I was a good putter, but um I would have been classified as a streaky putter, I think. Um but I got got hot at at times, but you know, week to week it wasn’t where I wanted to be. Uh playing corn ferry tour and then I felt like my rookie year on tour I I found I found something. Um, and from that point on, I’d say I’ve been, you know, one of the better putters out here for the last, you know, six, seven, eight years. What’ you What’ you find? Um, you know, I can’t really pinpoint to be honest what I found uh that particular year. Um, but I found a feel in my stroke and I to be honest I I putt differently now, but I found a feel in my stroke and for whatever reason that it just felt really good. Um, I was able to kind of ride that out for a long time, but I made a ton of putts and the hole started to look big to me. it started like it wasn’t a grip change or a stroke change or anything necessarily just something clicked in the brain like a little feel and then I started to like roll a few like weeks together where I was like man I’m making a lot of nice putts a lot of mid-range putts and then it just kind of felt like that became a little more normal. It just felt like making putts was like became a normal thing for me. And then uh I just kind of stumbled that confidence. But like to be honest, if I when I look back at my stroke from my rookie year, I don’t like it, but I was the eighth ranked putter on tour that year. I I I just I was aiming left and I was pushing it online. But I did it every single time. And uh I’ve kind of, you know, straightened it out since then. But like the confidence I built from a year like that like still it carried with me. like I saw the ball going in the hole a lot and then I’ I’d have weeks where I, you know, gained three, four, five strokes putting. Um, and that was like a big jump up for me that that rookie year. And um, yeah, like I say like now to like maintain where I’m at with my putting, I really feel like it’s I do the same thing almost every single day. So, and I don’t do anything really fancy, but like I just I start my day with, you know, start line straight left to right, right to left. I’ll do that for 15 minutes, and I do the same like three or four drills every day. Uh, speed short putt drills. Um, but I don’t I don’t really vary my routine hardly at all. And then as far as like what I focus on when I’m on the course, my like my focus is really down to like what I can control in my box. So I call like my my I’m in my play box right over the ball and like I’m really someone that’s very processoriented with like hey if I like check those boxes off I can accept the outcome over here. So I’m not like a guy that’s like hey like miss make good putt bad putt. I’m like oh I missed this putt from 8 ft. I hit a great putt. I did what I was trying to do. Great putt. Yeah. you know, and I feel like that actually helps from a confidence standpoint because if I was just based on my confidence on missake, well, I wouldn’t be very confident because you miss a lot more putts than you make. So, I feel like you can gain confidence from hitting a putt from 10 feet that you feel like you rolled it well, did what you’re trying to do. I missed, but I I did what I was trying to do. So, I think that’s something that’s helped me and something I kind of try to tell amateurs sometimes is like, hey, you know, you missed that 12oot putt, but like the odds are you were going to miss that putt. So, like I don’t know why you’re mad. Like, you hit a good putt over the over the right edge. Like, oh, I I should have made that putt. Well, no, you you shouldn’t have. You You’re a 12 handicap. You know, it’s a 12 foot putt. You My odds are probably 30% or 40% to make that putt. Your odds are 15% or 10%. Maybe. Yeah. So, well, I was gonna say I mean that like to your point, it feels like amateurs struggle with accepting like the percentages. Yeah, I think that’s a big thing. Like if you could lay out ahead of time, hey, before you hit this putt, this 15 footer, realize you are a one in 20 chance of making this putt for like a 12 handicap, right? Like if I lay lay that out to you right now, like that’s going to change the way you approach that putt probably. Yeah. Just try to hit it solid. Maybe it goes in. Yeah. solid with good speed, right? Get on a reasonable line and you two putt, you’ve probably like exceeded the expectations, you know, but I think the mentality is like I watch on TV got they make them all the time, you know? All leaders make these putts all the time, but like again, you show the guys playing the best every week and when you guys flip to to a shot, you typically aren’t going to like many misses, right? You know, like you guys Saturday, you’re not going to show an eightfooter miss, right? Yeah. So, we watch guys make putts all the time and I think people are programmed to think, “Oh, a 10-ft putt, you just you make these like they’re like free throws, right?” They’re not. No. And the greens are smoother on tour. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We put on better we put on better. Very good. That’s that’s actually a sneaky good point, too. It’s like when they’re carpet, the percent go up. Public golf course, the odds go down. Yeah. The odds are going to go way down. Um, I want to hear the father-in-law cell phone bill story. Can you tell that for us if you don’t mind? Yeah. So, I was playing a cornfair event um in New York. Uh I was at this this what year is this? Like 2016 2016 uh Peak and Peak and uh this is actually the year I got my tour card and this is actually uh a great story because so I’m like three or four out. I do the Monday qualifier and I started the year with a a full card. had the first eight eight starts or so. Uh hadn’t played great in the first like third of the year. Uh was out on the outside looking in. Monday qualified but missed. I got in on my number the next day. So Tuesday I get in the tournament. Don’t have a caddy lined up. My buddy Keith from Canada comes up cries for me and first day just a kind of a prelude to the story. He puts his running shoes on top of the car. the car next to us and we pulled out of our our house that week. We’re staying at my in-laws and we pull out of the driveway and he’s wearing his Birkenstock sandals but he leaves his shoes on the other car. So we get to the course morning tea time Thursday and he’s squeaking down the first hole is with his sandals on his first bare barefoot in his sandals just catting for me running kind of walking through the rough feet are soaked. I’m like sweet nice job dude you had one job bring your shoes next time. Um so Friday so I shoot even part of the first day and the cut’s going to be low. It’s probably going to be you know five or six under. So, I needed to go out there and shoot, you know, a really low round on on Friday. And my father-in-law, we’re sitting there at the house on Thursday night. And at this point, my wife and I are still on the family plan. So, I’m I think I’m 25 years old. And uh I somehow managed to get my way onto the family plan. And so, my father-in-law’s paying the phone bill. And he goes, “All right, I’ll make you a deal. you can stay on the stay on the on the family plan for another year if you shoot 600 tomorrow. So I’m like, “All right, that’s a that’s a fair deal.” And we’re going down the last hole. I finished on number nine. Hit the shot in there to like 8 ft. And I at this point I’m now I’m thinking about it like I now I’m like, “Oh, you I forgot about that bet.” So you’re thinking about selfs. Now I’ I’ve made I’ve made the cut. I’ve got like I think a shot to spare. got birdie putt in the last hole and I just center her cut it and I look over they’re like a 100 yards down the fairway and I was like doing one of these and uh you know my wife’s obviously cheering and uh it was it was super funny but um yeah that’s uh that’s a cool story. How long how long did you get the bill paid for? For another year. Another year. Another year on the family plan. So that was when did they kick you off? What what happened to get you kicked off the bill? I think later that year I got my tour card and I was like you’re like yeah you’re good now. You know you guys are fine. So, um, but it was, uh, that’s a cool story. That’s that’s that’s great. And you played well the rest of the week, right? You play well. Yeah. I actually finished fifth that week, which like was a big week for me. Got me like in the next kind of wave of tournaments. Um, and then uh, a month and a half later, I won and then got my tour card. So, it was it’s crazy how like you’re on the outside looking in, you not sure if you’re going to get play that week, you play well, a month later you win, and you’re on the tour and it’s like it just like boom, it happens. And you feel like, you know, a month prior to that, like you kind of feel like you’re in the woods and all of a sudden, you’re almost questioning like, should I be doing this? And then all of a sudden, can I do this? Am I, you know, am I at this level? Can I have that breakthrough? And then a month later, I win. And then two months later, I went on tour and you’re just like, “Wait, I I wasn’t sure I was good enough back world.” Yeah. You know? Yeah. So, I don’t have to worry about $220 AT&T bill anymore. I’m good to go. It’s crazy what that little bit of belief and self-confidence does like, but from actually doing it, it’s one thing like to say, “Hey, I’m I am good enough.” But like once you see it and it like you have that like that that peak and peak was a kind of a bit of a breakthrough performance for me where I’m like hey I was like on the outskirts of contention here and had a chance to somewhat win there and that was like a big one for me where I’m like I can do this and then I went on the corn ferry and then when I was on the I had the lead at the RSM that year and I’m like I just won two months ago. I’m like I can do this but like the guy six months ago like you know wasn’t sure like right. So, it’s just it’s crazy how it just like it clicks and it’s like, okay, I I can’t do this. And um yeah, hello world. That’s right. And you wanted a big playoff, right? Was it five fiveman playoff? Five man playoff and it went into Monday. One went to Monday morning. Did you guys play all five or did you split up? So, we played all five. Awesome. Played two holes on Sunday night and then ran out of light. had to come back Monday morning, but we lost one on the first playoff hole, I think, and then uh came back the next morning to play one more hole. So, but even that, like, you know, I I look back and I, you know, the fact that I won that playoff, you know, the way it played out like was just it was just so like the stats would just be like there’s no chance. like it just so I like I hit a long left I pitched up and I almost hit a great shot but I left it just short of the green and I had like a a 16 ft putt from the fringe and everyone had missed the green. I mean this is like 195 yards 42 degrees winds in off the right like this is the first swing of the day and everyone misses the green and everyone gets it inside me so everyone’s got a putt from inside me. I’m the first first to go and I’m thinking to myself, well, like, you know, if I can make this, like, I can put the heat on. And sure enough, I make it and I watched three guys miss. And but like but at no point when I made the putt was I like I just won. I was like, man, I get I get to play one more and I’m like, is it going to be two guys? One, but like one of these guys is going to make it. And you know, once once like the first guy missed, but I’m like, “Okay, there’s still two.” And then it didn’t hit me till the second guy missed. I’m like, “Oh shit.” Like, do you know who the last guy was to putt? Camilo. Okay. So, Camilo had like a sixoot putt and he’s above the hole, kind of a little bit of like a soft left to right. And uh that was the first moment I allowed myself to think, oh, if this ball doesn’t go in, I win. But I’m like, no, no, no. He’s going to make it. We’re going to go to 18. and then blinks and he misses it and I’m like, “Wow.” I was just like, “What just happened?” Yeah. You know, so crazy crazy stuff. Well, your putt, we talked about your putting, how good that’s been. And and uh what about your wedge setup I find is very unique. You you’re you play your law budge at 63 degrees. Is that right? Yeah. So, how long have you been doing that? I’m all I’m always curious because I’ve hit a 64 63 occasionally. Like, how far can you max that out if you hit it full? And do you hit it full shots with it much? I actually do. Um because I find that there’s just there is a time when you want to hit something that’s like 90 to 95 yards or even 100 yards that like has a lot of spin on it. Front front pin with, you know, a firm green. Yeah. Um so I can max that out at about 100 yards. Nice. Wow. Yeah. 63°. Yeah. Jeez. I’d be like 80 maybe. Like a blooper. You might land 90. Yeah. Um you know, and obviously like you know, you’re putting it back in your stance. It’s it’s a bit more backfooted. that ball cannot be forward of your stance at all where it’s uh it’s going like this. Um so I don’t do it a ton, you know, where I’m like maxing that club out, but like there will be will max that club out because it will get firm by the weekend. I’ll have a shot from 100 yards, maybe a little bit of helping wind, and I’ll want that ball to have as much spin as it if it possibly have. worries. If I hit that 56 and I’m taking 15 yards off it and trying to control it, hit a threequarter shot, that ball could bounce, bounce, bounce to check and be 30 ft past the hole quickly. So, you know, I think it’s important to have that ability to stop it quick at times. And I always felt like around the greens, I wanted to have as much loft as possible with with a particular club because I always know I can go down a loft. If I need to hit a low a low shot, you know, I can go to 56, I can go to gap or I can put the the the lob wedge back in my stance. I can always decrease that loft. But like adding and creating excess loft on tour I feel like around the greens uh is a big advantage because we play a lot of four pin you know four steps from the right three from the right firm shortsided a lot like to me on tour it became a huge advantage to have all that height all that speed and spin because like you know at 60 or 58 degrees yeah it’s great but like at 63 you look at that club and you go man I can I can get to basically any pin around these greens. And so I felt like I was playing with 62 and I ended up adding a degree of loft and I’ve never really regretted it and I’ve just kind of gone with it. And like I said, you when I’m pitching with that club, you wouldn’t know it’s 63. Like you’d watch me run around the greens and go, “Oh, you’re just kind of pitching with like a 60 or 58, put it back in my stance, I drive them, but then when I need to, you know, I can get that ball up in the air quick.” When did when did the When did you go from Did you grow up using a 60? Like when did you go to I was always like a pitching wedge 52 56 60 60 guy 60 you know just nice and clean and then uh I just you know I was kind of messing around one time and I I just feel like I think it was my last caddy uh was just like hey why don’t you just like add some loft to that why don’t we just like we can always like take it down but let’s just see if we like it a little more. I think I started at 62 and then I was like, “Hey, how far can we go with this?” I’m like, “Hey, like that’s probably about as much as you want to go.” And so I was going to ask if you if you thought 64, 65. Yeah. Um, is there what’s the legal limit? What’s the legal is there is you No, you can go to anything. Is that right? Ball just slip right up the face. But you can do it. What What do you think the most loft you could play with? And like actually what would be reasonable like if you had 68 degrees of loft like Well, that’s why I’m very curious that because it’s rare to play a one at 63 there. There’s not a lot of guys out there doing it because the ball starts to like you get into the friction between the ball and the face and the ball starts to just slip more than grip. Yeah. And in order to get spin, you need the ball to kind of stick on the face. That’s the grip force. Yeah. But um you have to have a lot of speed to do it to get it to grip. This is why you see Phil and Bubba now you the high speed players of the world, you know, um using the high lofted wedge to get get a little more spin around the greens. But I think you could you you know, I don’t know. You hit a flop shot. You got the face open to like 80 85 degrees probably, right? If you’re really sending one up there. Yeah. How many guys do you think on tour have more than 60? I think it’s probably under 10%. Under 10%. Yeah. I wonder if it’s going to go that way. Just as as as we get longer and longer and longer, I wonder if guys are going to creep into the 63 64 65 degree world. Well, and I think too, I mean, if I’m if you’re if you’re a guy that cruises at 185, 190 ball speed, I I would want to have an extra wedge, not a not not a 300, you know what I mean? Y like for a guy like that, it’s more valuable to have tighter gaps at those wedges and also a wedge that you could hit from 105 yard or 110 yard but hit it full and create tons of spin. Um I think that’s probably the way it would it would creep. Um yeah because guys now just have so much speed and those opportunities to hit those wedges become more prevalent. Could be laying out a new trend. This could be the next trend of the professional golfer. Um as we wind down, I wanted to ask how pumped you to have a major at home this year? Uh really pumped. That’s uh we talked about that being very unique. Uh just to have I mean your home tournament. Yeah, a tournament in your own backyard is one thing. Uh a major at your home course. Uh that’s a that’s a weird one. Uh but be super fun. Uh just to have the clone club support uh to to to be in your own bed. Yeah, that’s going to be really cool. Uh is there extra is there added pressure? Like do you do you feel added amount of like I’ve got to play well? I’ve got to make the cut. like I’ve got to do those things. You definitely feel those things, but I think that’s normal. And I think that as the as that week comes closer, I’ll, you know, I’ll talk to my guys and my team and, you know, and we’ll we’ll basically, you know, come to grips with like, hey, yeah, you’re going to want to do well because it’s your home course and everything like that, but like this is no different than any other week. And you you have to have the the mentality, I think, of like embracing that. like, hey, I’m gonna see a bunch of people that know me and everyone’s want me to do well and that’s fun, you know, like look at it look at it like a positive. Yeah. Hey, I’m gonna have extra extra support and whether I play great or don’t like they’re behind me. Um rather than viewing it like oh man, I got to play well my home course. Like so if you if you can kind of frame it the right way, I think it’s it’s a it’s purely a positive thing. But there’s definitely like yeah, there’s still that element of like, hey, I know I know that course really well. I know I’ve played it really well, but now can I play it really well in a major in my in my backyard? Um, and uh, yeah, hopefully I can. I mean, I played played well there last year in the in the Wells, and honestly, I don’t feel like the stuff’s going to be a ton different. I mean, they I mean, Quallo wakes up and it’s ready to to go. You know, it’s always Quill Hollow. It’s ready to go. And, uh, new Ton 9, that’s going to be pretty pretty spicy. Um, that hole is like 515 now. It was like 485 before. So, actually becomes tough to kind of get past the corner. I don’t know if you can picture that hole, but guys kind of drive it to the top of that hill. Bunkers in play on the right. I’ve yet to come close to that bunker from that back tea. Uh, now it’s been winter in Charlotte, but um it’s it’s a bit more demanding off the tea because now it really needs to be kind of center to right center and uh but for a guy like Rory’s not going to think twice about it. She’s still going to go up and over that corner. I don’t I don’t think Johnny was too thrilled with the uh bunker on 16 still being flyable last year. We had a little bit of tailwind last year and it was 340, but like I mean he’s the only guy flying it, but like he’s flying it with the lead on Sunday and you’re like, “God, I just put that bunker. Brand new bunker. Brand new bunker. Brand new T. This is supposed to be hard.” It’s all right. We just got We got a parking lot behind the tea, so we can still uh we can still we got room to go back. Yeah, Marty. We were talking before we got going about home games and you had a funny story about playing when you played the Phoenix Open. What were you saying? The weirdest part of it was when you were driving back home. Yeah. Just driving into my neighborhood and all my neighbors and I got the courtesy car and I’m like, “What? What’s this guy doing?” You know, they don’t they don’t know I’m a golfer. You know, I’m just a neighbor to them. Yeah. Who’s Who’s saying this house? I’ll return this one on Sunday night and then we’ll go back to my regular vehicle. That was so fun. What were you driving? An F-150. What were you driving? It was the It was an SUV that year. SUV. SUV. I think it was a Ford SUV. Okay. But I mean, it’s it’s it’s plastered. You can’t miss it. You know, they’re they probably thought I was hosting a player for the week. They’re staying with me this week. Uh Mackenzie, we appreciate the time. Good luck uh the rest of the season and um yeah, always fun to watch you play and and good chatting with you. Yeah, thanks Shane. Thanks. Enjoy it. This is the Ping Proving Grounds podcast. [Applause]