Johnny Wunder and Charles Howell III ‘Takeover’ the pod to talk all things gear

On a special ‘Takeover’ edition of the Fully Equipped podcast, GOLF’s Johnny Wunder is joined by Charles Howell III to take a deep dive on all things gear.   The longtime friends talk Charles’ current bag setup, common club myths that golfers should not be fooled by and the most important factors to consider for a proper wedge setup. 
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TIMESTAMPS:
00:10 Intro FE Takeover – CHII and Johnny wanting to do this for years
01:00 Where their love of equipment started
04:00 First time they met – Howell playing AJGA events – Did Charles have his dream clubs then or did he want upgrades?
08:45 Charles’ propensity to test gear and how he goes through the process
15:00 Importance of different products having different models in the fitting/testing process
19:00 Is there too much reliance on data – and does it forget the player in that equation?
22:00 CHIII WITB and What he’s testing currently
30:00 Does he prefer offset in his set up??
33:00 Did range chatter – club myths – influence him early in his career
35:30 Did CHIII have specific fitters on Tour that he relied on, on Tour during his career
39:30 How CHIII locks in his wedge setup
42:10 Roger Cleveland’s return to Cleveland Golf
45:30 HAVE YOU HIT THIS???
54:30 Johnny and Charles ALL TIME bag set ups
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[Music] fully equipped this is a takeover uh this is something that uh the other person on the screen and I have been wanting to do for years for years and we’re here Charlie on this fully equipped takeover myself Johnny wonder and the great Charles how thei Charles how are you today I’m good I’m uh a little a little bit excited a little bit nervous on here with you and uh We’ve uh we’ve had this thought as you said for quite some time and now it’s uh it’s time to see what uh what we can do it’s trying it’s time to see what these gear dork stallions can how fast can we run how how deep can we go and and how how how nutty can this get so um you know I don’t even know where to start you know I had a list of things that I wanted to talk about we’re going to start here Charles um let’s just start with our gear dork history uh together and and individually so I want to ask you first where did your love of equipment start like how did like what was the first moment you’re like okay this equipment thing’s kind of for me too here like explain that to me o um so it goes back a long time uh I started the game when I was seven and but when I was 10 10 11 years old I became really serious about the game and my dad d uh you we practiced together we learned the game together uh my mom and dad would drive me down to Orlando Florida as much as they could to get golf lessons from you know David Leed better and and his assistance there and and when we were going down there you know we were exposed to some pros you Nick Faldo uh David Frost Nick price um Dennis Watson uh Mike hbert all these guys and and they were all messing with obviously their golf swing number one but also their equipment and I always saw you know be it Nick price or Nick fer whoever it was with you know a couple sets of irons uh different drivers whatever and I’m like man that’s interesting what are you doing here why are you doing this oh well this can affect this and we’re messing with this and so it kind of got us thinking of like wait a minute is there is there something to be had of an advantage in that realm in that space like what is it right so the best way you find out is you start doing and boy did we make a lot of trips to Edwin Watts um for those that have been to Orlando Florida you know where it is on Turkey Lake Road and this is before the PJ TOUR Superstore day so this was Edwin Watts and Nevada Bob’s days okay oh yeah and yeah you know so it was in The Craze then was the Callaway Big birtha Driver okay yes and if you got a really good one it was the Ruger titanium one okay and see you remember and then became the biggest big Bera and then and all this so honestly we just started messing with with a bunch of drivers uh the yanx the adx 100 and the adx 200 yeah and it’s what we did and so obviously the priority has been okay you’re Gosling what are you working on what are you doing but how can we from an equipment point of view what advantage can we get from this and and that’s that’s how it started I I remember uh because you and I have talked about this at nauseum but I remember the first time uh that I saw you uh which was the uh Pumpkin Ridge uh usam and you were probably 120 pounds you had goggles on you know like you know you were you were all you know no fear hat on and you were dialed but at that time which was interesting um you know you had Callaway woods and you had ping iron I think you had ping ping I 2 irons and um the Ping b60 putter with about nine pounds of of uh tennis tape on it and and I you know I just remember you know that’s kind of when I started following you I was like who is this kid and then I found out you’re going to Oklahoma State and this is you know this is you’re still ajja boy at this point and yes it’s funny though you know in some of the conversations we’ve had another friend of ours Nico balini who you know um you know we talk a lot about the old days about the Glory Days of equipment you know like and and one of the the crown jewels if we’re going to talk about that time period was if you rolled up to a driving range and you had a set of copper pingy twos with G Luma Sha or if you had the yanx pro the yanx tours or if you had I mean I could go on if you had like a ram bore through 3-wood or if you had a Marlin 3-wood or like some Ram tour grinds I mean you were like you’re dialed you are dialed you are so yes um so what I want to ask you back in that day did you have a coveted set like did you have the clubs that you dreamt of or was there always a bag you’re like if I had a couple extra bucks I would I I want that set like what what does that look like so it’s okay A bit of a complicated answer I was always a ping guy growing up um I I grew up in Augusta Georgia there was no real attachment in that area it’s like I grew up in Scottdale um but it was always ping okay and it was the Ping I2 and then it became this wild crazy set the Ping Zing awes then right they were great and made those things look like the greatest things ever by the way yes he did and then and I remember the having the the True Temper ei7 shaft in them the green one the kind of the dark green yeah like that was that was the set um it was always the Callaway driver it it was the big birth of great was it the biggest big birth after that and all that um but it was always ping irons and wedges in Putter and I think ping you with their product cycle came out this is the cool set this is the next cool set this is it um I remember when then the isi came out right the isi nickel and that was like the set oh my gosh yes so so I was always in that you know ping family um through David Leed better my exposure to his Academy um that’s where Callaway came in David has been a longtime Callaway uh staff member and my first endorsement contract as a professional was with Callaway go and man it was awesome I mean you know Mr Callaway uh was still alive um Arnold Palmer had just recently signed with Callaway Gary Player like there was a lot of positive momentum and energy and um you know Mr Callaway was you know he was awesome I mean he he loved the game of golf he loved thinking outside the box with his equipment the golf ball had just come out then the 35 yeah remember the red and the blue no yeah um so so I think that I was always kind of a Callaway or ping guy um not saying those were necessarily the best or not the best it just kind of all how it worked out right so the the funny thing is is I remember um because I followed you close like once you got to Oki State like I remember when it was um I remember the whole story about you and Coach where he’s like if you you know if you’re scoring averages under 69 or whatever you can use a set of callaways or whatever and I think it was the X12 Pros I think was the first kind of set that you put in play and I remember though when you won ncaas um and I I still I can still picture you in my head you had like you know your Nike socks pulled up you were like the first guy that I saw out there with like you know tennis socks on and and I remember watching it with niik B we’re actually watching it with Nico and you had a full set like two through pitching wedge of the I3 blades you had the Ping driver and then you literally went out the week after ncas or two weeks out you went on a corn fairy event shot like 2300 and finished second I think mhm and I think you had a couple of good starts on the on the I think it was a Nike tour or whatever the hell it was back then yes um and and then you signed with Callaway and um oddly enough I could still picture it in my head you were the first person because I think they were coming out it wasn’t ERC but it was like this their new driver I forget what driver it was the one that came out in like 2000 or 2001 uh you were at the RBC Canadian open and you were testing a prototype of it for the first time you’re the first guy that had it the bag does that sound familiar yes okay oh yes yes okay so it’s going I’m going to Pivot into where I’m going with this here for a second so one of the things I’ve always loved about you and our friendship is you know I think we’ve probably been buddies now for five six or seven years maybe whenever we podcasted a WRX but one of the things that I really love talking to about you is you are you are a tester like you have your bag and you kind of protect your bag but you love knowing what’s out there so yes talk to me really quick just about your testing like how how do you test gear I mean what what what are you doing to to figure out if a club’s going to work or not I know the answer but like let’s let’s let’s give the people an Insight of what’s going on no so okay so I I I’ve long said one of the biggest advances in the game of golf from today going forward is Club fitting there’s no question about it and we’ll start and then we’ll go off all kinds of places but we’ll start here by saying I play a True Temper Dynamic gold X100 iron shaft okay right I play it straight at times in my career I’ve played it tipped an inch TI a half I’ve played hard step but right now it’s straight in why do I use that shaft I don’t know um partly is because it’s True Temper right and it’s quote always been good another reason has been well Tiger Woods used it and he beat all of our taals with it okay that’s partially true too that’s that’s a nice reason is great reason right um and if we could play half like him um but but then but why are you using it like like what what did you go through to say that this beat out a KBS beat out a Project X beat out a nipon or or anything else you want to throw into it we really don’t know and and I I I still think there’s a certain element of guessing okay and that that element of guessing that Gap there is what fills a lot of people like my brain and your brain of I have to test it then right because I don’t know I I I I don’t know I don’t know if there’s a possible way to throw sensors all up and down a shaft and then how I load the club and what my transition looks like in that day am I swinging well or am I swinging differently or in a tournament Under Pressure am I going to swing differently and load this thing differently so this shaft may be good for me at home but it’s no good in a tournament right so all these things cycle and go through my head which leads me down these rabbit holes or whatever Johnny Wonder holes of testing stuff right because you really don’t know until you know right and now the hard part in golf for everybody is you don’t really know until you get on a golf course in a tournament or pressure is type situation to see does it perform right because everyone listening to this podcast knows there’s a difference between the driveing range and the golf course and then the golf course Under Pressure right and that’s what we’ve learned a ton over the together collectively you know we’ve both known this but we figured it out for you specifically there is a huge difference between ior driving range and then getting Charlie out to live and and banging balls around right it’s a huge difference oh my gosh and I think it’s for everybody and and I think that’s where you know the the other side of the testing coin is that golfers are so good now the the the level of competition is so good it is very very hard to get an advantage anywhere okay so if I say now I work out well congratulations everybody works out okay um I have a golf teacher well great so does everybody else now right like I remember people thought I was crazy when David lead better was sitting on the drive ranch with me at tournaments oh Charles what are you doing this isn’t the time for a lesson why is your golf teacher here you’re too complicated you’re you’re too over the top you’re too mechanical now everybody has a teacher right I mean think about how that that shifted right like like I remember there was a day like Tim TBO for example like why does he struggle at quarterback everybody on TV said oh man his throwing mechanics need to get better have you ever heard a commentator anybody say on TV a golfer’s mechanics need to get better no a million they’ve said oh never heard it they’ve said oh they choked or they got nervous or um they just hit a bad shot or whatever you I’ve never heard them say you know what he is a good player but his mechanics need to get better yeah there’s only two I can that come to mind would be Johnny Miller and brandle shamble are the only people that are picking golf swings apart okay there you go perfect so so now so now imagine like that where we’ve come in golf with teachers with every type of trackman uh foresight flight scope you name it plus all the 3D technology right gears amm whatever it’s very easy now to see what’s going on okay so the gold is is how do you change it and then is there an advantage to be found in equipment can equipment make you swing better can equipment uh make you swing differently right um Can equipment take your bad off days and make it better that’s what lead that’s what leads me down the holes of testing stuff be it shafts heads centers of gravity whatever it may be right and and you’ll and you’ll test I mean the cool thing with you is and this is why this has been fun with you is um and Rocko’s a little bit like this too but like you’ll try anything once just to just to be able to check off that box right and I think having an open bag now allows you to kind of go out and and and hit some stuff the only I guess and I’m the same way the only problem with that now is you might absolutely roast something one day and then try something else and kind of forget about this other driver now you’re on to this one and this one’s then I get curious and it takes me a week to figure out if this one’s good or bad and the hard part is they’re all they all kind of net out the same and like one thing I’ll say about all the equipment that’s out there right now for the most part it’s all like nine and a half out of 10 I mean there’s nobody makes Duds anymore it’s all good stuff I wouldn’t you wouldn’t you agree I I would agree and I mean you can’t go and fault Callaway Taylor Made ping Titleist like you none of them they all make great stuff right okay they they do so but I think they also have their biases as well okay you and I think I think that really matters okay and so let’s say for example man the Taylor Made the whatever driver was a little bit more fade biased right okay or let’s just say Callaway for example let gonna say the triple diamond is a little more fade bias than the Triple Diamond max right okay which it is which it is right and that that’s important that doesn’t mean Callaway doesn’t mean every Callaway driver has to work for me it means they have to make a range of drivers that fit as many people as possible possible right so so the goal then is to have a fitter or someone helping you to say actually Charles listen the triple diamond you are not going to like because you’re gonna push cut this thing one time and you’re G to chew the grip off of it right but the Triple Diamond max you’re GNA like that because if you push one that thing’s going to kind of hang in there and go oh it really did I like that right and see that’s where equipment really can make a difference um obviously I play on live now and my captain is Bryson D Shambo um now you want to talk about some equipment rabbit holes my God man but oh yeah it’s awesome but but there’s a couple things number one he’s trying to get better he’s trying to do everything possible that he can do to get better that’s number one he will not leave a stone unturned I promise I’ve witnessed that right um but but number three is he actually likes to feel you know what if I do this or this club is this way I have an advantage and he plays better better golf because of it yeah funny it’s funny that you say that so like one of the questions that that I’ve asked a bunch of players now so like say for example Charlie you are say you know for argument sake your path is maybe one and a half out and one up right if you’re with a driver just for argument sake and if that’s the swing that you know because you use trackman you use quad you use kind of use them all right you know for different reasons so the goal is and I’ve I’ve talked to Bryson about this a little bit the goal is to be able like if I have a launch monitor out and I make that one out one and a half up or you know one and a half or one up and one and a half out golf swing the ball should be right there when I when I do it right like I should hit it out of the middle and it should go right there the problem that I just say the problem is is is what you and I are starting to figure out is you’re kind of there all the time like you you know you’re not if you’re swinging bad you’re not that far off is you guys are so good and this is the difference between a consumer like myself and a professional like like you you guys are so good that the equipment tolerances the performance tolerances are like that big right so like you’re you’re more you guys are becoming more predictable than the equipment is in a weird way um where like I know if you hit a 100 Balls with a driver your Delta for path and for angle of attack is going to be like maybe half you know maybe one up to you know it’s not going to be much but the disparity between the shots that you hit based on the club that you’re hitting is going to be a lot wider than that so that’s what no question that’s where it gets interesting and that’s where I think some of the some players ignore that altogether like I don’t want to know I just need something I like to look at I want to hit it on this line and it goes out there most of the time and I’ll figure it out with my wedges is kind of like the other the other equipment strategy which you know I put more like on the Scotty sheffler Spectrum which is and Sam Burns guys like that that’re just like I don’t know man most of the time it goes R I’m looking so I’ll figure it out from there um yes but do you think I guess the point to this is do you think that with all this technology and trackman and quad um do you think it’s made it overly complicated do you think it the the Reliance is too much on that and it takes some of the player out of the equation because you can you have that feedback of those numbers as opposed to what the balls doing in the air I think I think data is important okay so everything in life we’re trying to acquire more data right okay whether it’s your financial advisor uh in investing whether it’s it’s the guy flying the airplane that we’re going to get on and and go to a tournament next week okay data in and of itself is never a bad thing it’s what we do with it okay right and so if I have a as you said Scotty Sheffer and Sam Burns mentality of uh you know I kind of like the way this thing looks most the time it cuts when I want it to cut let me go play golf man awesome power to you if if you were wired that way and Scotty Sheffer has had one heck of a career well so with Sam Burns right man go go for it go at it if you’re not wired that way which I’m not I can’t be that person like I can’t do it um I can’t now I wish I mean there’s so much about let’s say a Dustin Johnson that I indie right you know I the fact he can look at a driver and say this actually looks pretty good watch this 3:30 right down the middle okay and and and there’s so much of that I can’t be that guy now now I I think so with with foresight with trackman and all this all those tools should should help us they should never be a hindrance you knowing what’s going on and what we’re doing should should only be a help so I would encourage every golfer to go that direction to look that direction because it can only help okay um I will never shy away from that now where you can get into trouble and we’ve all done this is you see a number or you see a pattern you don’t like and then you go about changing it right now when you figure out how to change it that’s the hard part that’s where you can go down rabbit holes you can do whatever however it’s not the data’s fault it’s you you know taking that data and trying to do something with it right yeah and it get it it can get confusing so we’re g we’re going to move on topics here I do got to do a quick read though for our sponsor Golf Pride uh I want you all to meet Aline Max which is the new newest addition to the Golf Pride uh family uh raay Ridge technology features a higher longer and firmer Ridge actually Charlie you played the Align grips uh that runs the full length of the grips 25% higher Ridge than original align so Charlie you’re missing out by 25% according to this read yes uh maximum consistency uh it’s a revolutionary rage Ridge raed raised Ridge fits into the hands natural Contours um which to be honest Charlie it feels like remember those old bun Hogan grips that used said he used to put the coat hanger that’s kind it feels like I’ve had it in my hand if you have any questions go to golf pride.com to learn more about align Max and God bless Golf Pride for uh sponsoring fully equipped and giving Charlie and I a place to babble okay so we’re going to get into your bag a little bit and the fun thing about this and you know hopefully we’ll be able to do more of this and you know we’ll do a little bit more back and forth but right now this is kind of a Charles how interview a little bit um we’re going to talk about your bag a little bit um and what your test you like what’s close to getting in the bag so right now driver’s Triple Diamond Max uh which is not out yet in the marketplace but you got your hands on one is that are you or that is that in the Ping kind of battling it out still like talk to me about let’s talk about driver first so I’ve since I’ve been on Liv I’ve played the Ping driver um and right now I’ve got the the uh the 440 LST in the bag um the triple diamond so the elite Triple Diamond max is a phenomenal driver as well right um if I were to like right now if I were to te up right now for my life to go play around the golf I right now I’d play the Ping the Ping is kind of my security blanket right it’s my safety blanket the the driver that is the best right there with it better in some areas is the Triple Diamond max Elite okay um now I am I like to draw the ball okay I always have um I don’t like seeing a ball fade I don’t like seeing a ball cut um my my my I would uh I I I still want to see this ball somewhat drawing okay right the the Ping the newest ping the 440 and then the Triple Diamond max both are easy to draw for me right so so that makes a big difference there the Callaway is a little bit faster than the Ping okay I don’t think anybody’s going to be really surprised by that no that’s just that’s their platform yeah right um the cway is a little lower spinning than the Ping so and I don’t think anybody’s really surprised by that it’s kind of like what do you want what do you want out of your driver what can you manage um golf is changing though in that we’ve seen these you know two Woods or Mini Drivers you know kind of come out because so many holes are bunkered and and and in this 280 to 300 range has become really important so with either Min drivers or these lower spinning hotter three Woods it’s kind of left room for hey I need my driver to be as hot as possible right and and if you if you want evidence of that go to any Professional Event live PJ tour it doesn’t matter watch those guys ball speeds you know my ball speed when it’s warm and I’m playing is around 180 right okay that which is not slow it used to be fast still huming it puts you in the top it would put you in the top 30 in on tour right but you’re like me it’s 180 like I mean I I’ve seen Bryson 195 comfortably okay um you this wae Neeman is very fast so so Brooks is fast I think so for me I I walk that line of man let’s let’s have enough of a lower spinning three-wood where I can get thing at least 280 off of T and then let’s make our driver as hot as possible right um that’s kind of where I sit on things and you’re and you’re you’re still you’re still vent’s black 6X I think you’re what I remember we sent you but it’s 45 and tipped an inch orever yeah and you’ve been in that you’ve been in that shaft for a while the the thing that’s cool I think what I’m noticing with you and you know and ping drivers or like a call it like a higher Moi low spin driver which is kind of a weird thing to kind of an anomaly but or an oxymoron but I’ve noticed where you get tricky I would say from a fitting perspective is you most drawers of the ball like yourself typically hit up on it a lot more like Bryson for example Bryson hits up on at four or five right and he gets the ball yes to he gets the ball to curve basically on his path on the way up where you’re you’re more of a trap drawer like you know almost like a pull like I don’t want to call it a pull draw but like a trap dra so you are yes you’re not so you need a driver that spins you need a driver that’s stable and you need a driver that doesn’t have any right in it at all because what’s going to happen for you is you’re going to make that one out and one and a half up golf swing whatever the hell we’re calling it and with a triple diamond or a tailor made LS or one of these lower spinning platforms you might pound it you might be actually be faster on the way out but the problem is there’s not enough spin on it to make it curve so correct you know that’s that’s where like so for the people listening at home the reason why you know Charles path to a draw is actually the old school way of doing it which is kind of a trappy draw I call it like a yesper parnov draw or like a Jay hosw draw like you’re kind of zeroed out or you know you’re kind of hitting down out with a face on top of the ball so um now let’s get to really quick you know you mentioned mini driver um have you have you tried a mini driver that’s we’ve never really even talked about Mini Drivers have you tried one yet or you have any interest in that at all or is no because I’ve gone the direction I played the Ping 3-wood their LS 3-wood which is a crazy low spin 3 wood did you get the are you in the 430 or the 440 I’m in the 430 um I liked it a little better than the 440 on the 3-wood um okay but it’s it’s the three-wood I spend that 3-wood between 31 and 3,400 off of te so it’s a it’s a lower spinning 3-wood it can still go um I still like that because I still want to be able to hit that into a par five and two you know getting it around the green I’m not wor about holding the green but getting up around the green um then I also play a seven wood which is kind of come back in guys bags now yeah there like bro there was 30 there was 377 Woods at inisbrook last week 35 or 37 seven Woods it’s a wild number I believe it and I’m andless sure as someone one that hits the ball really high I really don’t see a need to have your longest iron longer than a four I agree as low as golf balls spin now as good as five and seven woods and even some hybrids are I’m not a big hybrid guy but is is as good as seven Woods are let’s say I don’t really see the need for unless you hit it really high like let’s say a Justin Thomas right or someone of that nature you don’t need longer than a 400 well what’s let me ask you a question so I was at TPI last week and you and I talked about this already but one of the things that they do um they fit to a peak height like Peak height is their North Star right so like they want your seven iron and your driver to basically be at a peak height and then they build the rest of the bag around that Peak height right which I I think for me was like 105 feet because to and the way that they calculate it is Peak heite is a basically a good guesstimation how fast you swing it and how good you hit it so if it’s a quality strike and you you know you’re fast and you can get it to 105 that’s a good number so like for you like with a seven iron what’s Peak kite for a seven iron for you between like I don’t know like under it’s got to be under 100 isn’t it it’s between that 95 to 100 range right so it’s it’s it’s close to mine it’s not crazy high it’s not crazy low it’s kind of right in the middle so um so like the the irons that we got yeah the the the Apex tcbs that you’re in I think you’re still hitting those the cool thing with you is also so I see where the Ping influence is kind of and even the old school Callaway stuff how it’s kind of crept into your kind of your bag like TCB would be a you know an an offsetted tour cavity back you know there’s plenty of offset in those things so like do where do you stand on offset I mean do you like seeing a little offset do you like you know like where do you sit there so having grown up on PING I 2s I’ve always had and played with some amount of offset right okay as I got older and turn pro I thought I did I thought offset was not like not ideal not good I don’t know why make you think you’re going to hit it left because that’s what everybody’s that that was always the curse of offset is better players like I’m going to hit this thing dead left and it’s like well are you though and and I almost think better players end up pushing it when they see too much offset right you because I mean I don’t want this thing to push this ball I think but I what I’ve learned is especially through testing the tcbs uh some of the pxg irons or whatever I need some amount of offset right I almost think everybody does I don’t and also to the irons I’ve seen I don’t know if you feel this way as well with no or minimal offset don’t look great through the back they they don’t because you have to make compensations somewhere so like and we’re going to do a little segment after this after this one about you know what we’ve hit like have you hit this and what do you think but yes you know as it relates to and I’ve talked to Rocco about this and I’ve noticed that all the drawers of the ball love to see offset what I think is with some of these irons I don’t think there’s enough Offset you know what I mean like Ping I 2s I mean that that Blade the blade of a ping I 2 was all the way behind the shaft like it was back there like it’s in the back seat right big time and maybe too much but yes yeah maybe too much but that would be the extreme version of it but I think somewhere in the middle there even for tour players is a good spot because the one thing with offset you’ll get people in the WX forums or any of these forms like it’s too much offset and the one thing I always say is I’ve never seen a player ever literally that’s a good player that plays clubs with offset they all hit it really straight or they all hit this really beautiful little draw like they all do and yeah I think a lot of that has to do with when you find a when you find a a club that has like almost onset or face progression or whatever the hell you want to call it I just don’t see the quality of shot being as good unless you unless you cut the ball unless you’re trap cutter then it kind of makes sense but like if you’re hit trying to hit it straighter with a slight draw you need that you need a little bit offset to make it work like if you watch Xander hit balls you would think he played with like Justin Thomas blades he plays with the same irons you play and it’s got plent you set it down it’s got plenty of offset there he doesn’t bend them weak to make the offset go away they’re just the way they are so um yes it’s cool yeah so so like I remember a part of your career uh God this is like maybe mid 2000s and I think and I talked about this before but you remember that time in your career when you went to those Hogan blades remember when Callaway bought Hogan and you yes you put in a set of blades and I think it was when yes I do I don’t know if you were working with Will Neil at the time I forget what teacher you were working with but it was a lead better guy and your your swing plane was getting pretty shallow so you went to like more Loft in your driver you went to some blade irons and so the the point of me bringing that up is like when you’re earlier in your career how much influence did you have on the myths of clubs meaning like you know better players play with blades and having not having a lot of offset is what all the tour guys do like how much of that how much did that influence you like all the all the range chatter oh my gosh a ton they I always saw man better golfers use blades because when I grew up I saw Nick price hitting the ram tour grinds that were about those so sick those are so awesome I mean and and you know Nick falo playing blades and David Frost playing blades and and these are the guys I was first exposed to I think then I was also told you know well ping wedges are good but man if you’re really good you’ll take a forge wedge and grind all the bounce off of it right right another really really bad idea um you know the other one was man great Putters putt with an 8802 right it’s got a lot of swing in it you can feel the face probably a bad idea as well unless you’re Phil Michelson now right um so yes I think those MTH came in the cool thing about where golf is today those by and large are gone right I mean there’s more guys playing cavity backs than blades there’s more guys using big old 460cc driver heads now than than ever there’s there’s graph there’s graphite shafts and irons out there right okay um you know so there’s people using bounce on the wedges and and saying it’s good those myths are going away that’s where I love where game is where golf is today everybody’s trying to way find a way to get better yeah I mean and that’s I mean I say this in videos all the time I mean Tour golf and I learned this literally on tour from guys like Kellen and Johnny Thompson and you know being around those guys Tour golf tour fitting is built around raising your floor it’s got nothing to do with your good shots ever like I’ve never heard any one of you guys ever walk on a truck go I want to hit it further I want to hit maybe higher sometimes but for the most part it’s always about mitigating the Miss and it’s always spin management constantly spin management start line and mitigating a Miss yes that’s all tour fitting is so when you see those tour reps out on the Range and they’re working with a new driver maybe not a new driver but if they’re if they’re in the middle of the season and they got a bunch of clubs out they’re trying to solve a Mis problem period like they’re not trying to make them faster they’re just trying to like keep the reservation from burning down essentially um so do you have um do you have like fitters like you know when you were on tour did you have people from staffs that you really liked working with like who did you respond to or was there like one fitter that you just kind of relied on during your career like um before you met me I mean yeah before I met you um no so in Callaway golf there was a rep there Joey Sprayberry wow dude that’s a wow that’s a blast in the past okay he was awesome he was the best we got along great he understood me um we could have these type talk talks and conversations we could have conversations such as man this 7 and I hit on one hole you know it pitched this there’s there’s no way it could have pitched that far um what what’s going on here is it is it the spinning the ball is it whatever is it you know this well I I say back then we could play whatever Groove we wanted you know is it is it the groove is it whatever is it the shaft how I’m like we I always thought it was my fault any bad shot and I still do okay so let’s get that out there I went down the equipment to find an advantage right right so when Joe and I would have these conversations it would be man Charles on man W Tuesday and Wednesday I’m watching on the Range you’re launching this driver up at 12 degrees this is awesome man you go out there and get nervous on the golf course and you’re all on top of this thing and you’re launching this sucker at eight like we need some spin we need some spin on this head Charles it ain’t going to look good on Tuesday but it’ll look really good on Friday right and so it was things like that where Joe and I could have a running dialogue it wasn’t just uh a once off it was always hey where you at how’s it going whatever and to your point on tour fitting and this almost needs to be a bit for everybody you just want your bad shots better right okay everybody’s good is good okay I mean pick a name any name you want their Good’s good right you know and and if you’re on the PJ tour or live you you can win okay right so your good is good enough it’s just how good’s your bad and that is a huge part I think of the future of Club fitting yeah I think you know the the good Fitters on tour and there I mean if you get to that level and you’re on a truck you’re you’re you’re you’re doing some good [ __ ] right like it’s not it’s not you’re very good yeah you’re very good and what I’ve noticed is all of them to a man all fit or all work with players think three four five days ahead like okay you know like you know when Kell’s working with Romo for example it’s the session but it’s also knowing okay Friday when you guys tee off Rambo is always super jacked up on the First Tee this is a brand new driver I have to make sure that I’m overshooting the mark maybe on start line or spin because I know when he gets jacked up this Ball’s going to start 5 feet this way and spin 500 RPMs more because he’s going to hit down on it he’s going to go all all silver back on it and so Kell’s good at you know these guys are good at thinking about all that stuff and that’s why I’ve always been a big Advocate like if you find a good fitter same thing with a teacher if you find somebody that you like that’s your person like you’re constantly going back to that so you have one variable that’s always the same and that person will fail you sometimes but it’s a that’s why it’s a relationship right it’s always back and forth together you’re going to make mistakes together you’re going to get it right really right sometimes but ultimately like you know that that reference point that North Star is always going to stay the same so I always get confused when people go from fitter to fitter to fitter to fitter the reason why on tour why all these guys work in pods is so that the player relationship player rep relationship stays the same constantly like they become a team and and it really works out that way um let’s get to your wedges really quick and I want to ask you about something so wedges I think are you are you an opus or are you in Cal are you in the uh vogi still I’m in the Opus 52 and 56 and then the Ping 60 um it’s just that’s just a visual preference for me a bounce preference on them um wedges I I think all Lofts on wedges should be set to how far you want to hit them out of the Fairway right yeah and you know this like like I want 130 yards out of my 52 degree well I’ve got to make it a little little under 51 to get that okay like like so so Nick my cat and I started how far do we need this ball to go let’s just get the loft there right okay so I would encourage people don’t don’t get hung up on what Loft it’s supposed to be or your gaps get the number you need okay um so that’s where I’m at with the wedges I play a little more bounce as you know yeah um I don’t mind bounce I like it around the green if I get nervous and uncomfortable I’ll just get that 60 get the heel off the ground and hit this thing off the toe right um so bounce I I I don’t mind I think most people can benefit from a little more balance than they believe yeah you said something pretty cool I actually brought this up in an article like last week um on tour another thing is everybody backs into the Loft through carry distance right so like you take you take Phil’s bag for example Phil’s five in four and five iron part of his bag it depends if the hybrid’s in but like if he has a four and a five iron his four iron might be 22 degrees and his five iron might be 22 Dees it it’s it’s it doesn’t matter to him like he doesn’t care about the lofs of the clubs it’s it’s it’s you know they all have jobs and that section of the bag so that’s that’s another thing that people get get really held up on is the Lofts like well this is 18 I need an 18 degree Club no you need a 220 Club you need a 215 Club they might be the same Loft but it doesn’t matter like just the club’s going to it’s all about carry distance especially when you get to 789 pitching wedge um you get to that money maker part of the bag is when you know you really want to back into the Loft so it’s it’s cool that you said that because I’ve said it a million times and people look at me like I have two heads and I’m like that’s how they do it on tour so um okay announcement today which I that’s really important go ahead it’s it’s huge it’s huge and it’s just another myth that you battle against you know it’s like you and I have talked about fade biased drivers everybody thinks a fade biased driver has to have the face two degrees open and be you know super low spin with a stiff shaft it’s like no it actually the face needs to go the other way and correct you know you need spin you need all these things to make it like if you go look at Dustin Dustin Johnson’s driver or Freddy’s driver you set it down in the the face points at your left shoulder so correct um okay so another person that you and I are close with made a really cool announcement today Roger Cleveland speaking of wedges did you I don’t know if you’ve uh if you saw that but he is back with Cleveland Golf as of today they announced it today I talked to Roger today he’s in Huntington Beach um he’s coming back yeah dude he’s coming back to consult on their wedge program kind of like bookending his career and I like I’ll text you the video dude they the Cleveland Golf put out this video Charlie like it gave me goosebumps like and I called Roger I was like bro have you seen the video they they make you look like a god like it’s him at his house and like they show him shuffling through old 588 wedges and it dude it’s the sickest video I’ve seen in a long time but like I didn’t know if you knew that huge announcement no yeah just well Roger you know so when I was with Callaway Roger was there yeah um at Callaway and we spent a lot of time together not even just on wedges but also irons I mean he how a club interacted with the turf how it went through the ground he was brilliant with that brilliant how speaking of this really quick and we’re going to move on the next topic but um another thing that I’ve been kind of saying for the last couple years is I think Turf interaction is more important than anything on an iron like and the reason I say that is like super super game improvement irons for example like if you look at them they have really low CG they’re built to get the ball up in the air but the souls on them are like this big right so essentially you’re asking the player to hit driver off the deck like you know 30 times around like they can’t get him into the turf like I could hand a 25 handicapper a a ram tour grind and they’re going to hit it better at least the strike’s going to be better than they would if they had a super game improvement iron um because they’re getting a face on it right how important correct how important how much attention do you pay to the soul everything and and I tell you why it’s because you know when that that the way that thing is going through the ground and and as golfers we feel man that got stuck or wow that got in and out of the ground really easy um how this thing’s going through the ground and where this space ends up pointing for this ball start line is everything right when you look at irons I mean we discussed offset that matters I think Heel To Toe length matters huge yeah right which kind of affects CG and and all that but I also think man there Souls I’ve always been intrigued by the souls on the strickson irons I just that’s been something I’ve never really gone down that path but their souls and how they do them I’ve always been intrigued by those we’re gonna that’s that’s literally the next topic is a little segment I’m going to do called have you hit this um okay but really and I’ll I’ll call you on this one but I had a really conver a really interesting conversation with remember David ell from ell golf you ever met him yes he’s a wizard so we talked about blade length and and the you know what that looks like you know like a long blade length and how those you know the faders love those and the drawers like the shorter blade length and we we’ll get to that in another another conversation okay we have 15 minutes left there’s two things left to cover so I’m going to give you three clubs and I was going to ask you about strickson you just told me you haven’t hit it but we’re going to do have you hit this and what do you think so la golf driver just came out two days ago yesterday two days ago have you hit it and what did you think so yes I have hit it the at first glance when you look down on it it’s awesome looking yeah it’s very normal traditional shaped uh the Bulge and roll looks awesome makes it look extremely Square it sits on the ground nice um I thought was a very good very stable driver now I’ve hit a lot of iterations coming up because Bryson’s involvement with them right um and to what believe the latest iteration is easier to draw so be because of that I’m excited to hit some of the newer ones but I think there’s a lot of potential in that driver I think I think that um and I’ve actually talked to Kellen from Callaway a little bit about this too like I’m a big advocate for what Bryson’s trying to do someone’s gonna nail home that idea now Callaway is doing yes a version of that with AI it’s just a different way into the same thing but I think the Bulge and roll thing on the face especially at a tour level when you guys are so finicky about start lines and Miss start lines I think there’s there’s some there’s something there I just don’t know exactly what it is but when you have a driver that you can hit out of the toe and it starts right and falls right and you can hit it out of the heel and it starts left and goes straight for you for you guys out on tour like that’s a that’s a gift I think um because most of the time you know you hit one out of the Hill you’re expecting it to start left and just kind of spin to the right but what I’m what I’m noticing with a lot of you players especially on tour like the the optimal Miss with a with a heel shot is left like left straight like I just wanted to go that way and stay that way and I want the toe one to go right and kind of fall right is that is that pretty accurate I mean is that you think that there’s something there I definitely think there’s something there okay I think what we have to figure out now I’ve been privy to a lot of the stuff via Bryson and testing some with Jeff Meyer who’s great by the way he’s smart boy yeah is he’s very smart not all toe hits are created the same okay so for example Bryson’s tow hit you know he’s path is let’s say four to six degrees to the right this is between you know three and five up whatever so his toe misses would really really really draw okay right like starting right of a fairway and just left turn blinker go all the way across Fairway left him having more of this bulge and roll is going to kick this thing more to the right and it’s not going to curve this much right so for Bryson it’s awesome and I see why and where he got there I think the eventual place we end up is is Charles so my my draw is going to be one and a half path to the right one up so my toe ball is is apt to hang more to the right right I don’t need my toe ball to go more right so maybe the toe of my driver is designed different than the toe of Bryson’s driver right okay okay that could go to everybody in golf you know they Joe Joe Smith comes out there to hit balls and they get a face mapping of his club and a little bit of a conversation what what misses do you like and they can 3D print his face and then there’s your face right like how cool is that there’s a lot of potential in that yeah yeah I think there there’s there’s definitely something there I even even crank you know crank drivers the one that Bryson’s playing right now is the same kind of the same idea okay absolutely the next next thing I want to ask you about I was going to ask you about the stricks on irons you haven’t hit those I think you really like them I don’t I’m I’m curious actually to to to see what you think of those um the next thing I want to know like the tailor made drivers the new ones the Q Qi 35 like what in the new tailor made line have you hit so I’ve not hit one of them you haven’t hit any seen the driver no I’ve seen the driver to set up to it it looked beautiful I love the gray look it looked extremely square but I I literally not hit one you hit you you messed around with tailormade drivers like 20091 like you you you did the uh the R9 thing for a little while and you did the the burner remember when the burner came out and it was the it was the glued hosle and we were bending them flatter and open and all that I remember rocket balls guy for a second in your mauno days you played you played in in Bridgestone days you played some tailor made stuff I remember I did absolutely did no great company okay so no no nothing on tlor made and then the last thing I’m going to ask you is um I just got my list here let me see like what’s a what’s a real Banger question here give me a second oh okay um so you were a Muno staffer for a long time when was the last time you hit any of the Muno stuff since I left I haven’t I haven’t hit it since I left broke he broke up yeah no exact no no they made wonderful stuff and Jeff Cook their rep was awesome he was great to me um I just haven’t hit it and and the reason why I just once I go down that direction I don’t stop and at some point in time I need a bag put together to play a golf tournament with and not hit one slight overdraw and think that’s it this Souther iron’s coming in you know yeah um it’s listen the truest statement ever is it’s a lot easier to change your golf club than your golf swing okay that will always be true um however that may not always be the best that okay that’s that’s a that’s a great answer and the funny thing is also like once you start going down the mauno rabbit hole like Tak rck on Japanese companies you start going on the mauno then you get into the meas and like then all just like you’re you’re just not even in your body anymore like you’re some you’re somewhere else like no then I’m digging in Abraham an’s bag and what mirrors are these they make cavity backs they make blades I’m like oh my gosh now I’m in four different sets of mirrors I know nothing about them and then I also I don’t like asking reps to build me stuff if I know I’m not going to use it right right like I I don’t that’s disrespectful right that’s just wasting so um you know Sam Han and I have gone down some serious rabbit holes at lab but I use most all of the putters okay I don’t ever want to go I don’t want to ever order something and I know I’m not going to use it that’s just disrespectful and that’s a waste of their time and it’s not right yeah they um speaking of which actually the last thing I’m going to ask you about they going to we’re going do the last little portion of this thing is uh the Cobra drivers the DS adapt have you tried those yet yes no but I want to they look awesome dude they’re sick like they’re they’re they’re it’s funny we were going back and forth on TD Max and ping like the LST head their X head which is the one that um I think Ricky plays it and I think Gary Woodland plays it it’s like their their their LS head’s good like it’s you know it’s kind of like the tailor made it’s really solid and it goes far and does all the things things but like their ex head again like TD Max is like a higher Moi low spin head like and it’s really easy to turn over like really it might be a Ben showman call just to just to try it yes it’s a really really good head dude like I hit it the other day and you know so far in like all the testing I’ve done like I went to Titus and I hit the tailor made and I kind of hit them all the same and even to this day the Callaway one oddly enough because they make great drivers has kind of been you know it’s been one a the whole time like numbers wise it’s just been a really it’s been really good but I brought this Cobra one out and uh you know they’ve all been really close but that was the one I was just like God I don’t know if I do I hit this one the best of them all like you know it was it kind of got you know how we get like I’m sitting there just going is this real like is is it is it this good so I’m kind of anxious to get it out but we need to get you some Cobra drivers to try because they’re Rocco hit it in Newport Beach and you know him dude he’s a psycho still plays the g400 and yeah yeah he never gains anything with a driver technology does nothing for Rocko media not a thing he’s he’s 145 ball speed it carries 245 it rolls out 20 yards it always draws like it doesn’t matter like technology does he was getting this the first time I’ve ever tested drivers with that guy where he got like six miles an hour of ball speed with his Cobra driver like he was whacking this thing the only the only thing for him you know because Rocco’s 150 years old now is is he’s so used to seeing the ball fly out of this window this ball was a little higher than he’s normal than he’s used to seeing okay and it just wasn’t drawing fast enough so it would go out there and it would kind of I don’t want to say float left it would kind of stubbornly fall left where he’s looking for it to curve right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it’s you should try this thing dude it’s it’s ah okay hey V will appreciate this it’s a sleeper it’s a serious sleeper okay yeah he’ll say thank you Johnny yeah this is the last thing for this and this is going to be both of us we are going to do our alltime gear Dork what’s in the bags like of all the bags that you’ve had driver through lobber what’s your alltime set so I’ll give you mine quickly so mine is great big berth is 75 with an rch 36 okay um I had an S2 H2 3w the little tiny one the little friend one that du with an RC remember the old Remember The Old Pro Series graph Callaway shafts I really wish they’d come back with those absolutely so I had that and then I had two through four iron in Copper ping i2s with x100s yeah and and then I had five through pitching wedge in 962 BS which was the greatest iron ever made hands down and then I had a um I had a 54 degree um the old black 588 remember those they came out with a gunmetal finish oh yeah and then I had a 60° vogi 260 2612 which is the same one that Stricker uses now and then I had the I think it was the iso it was the DeMarco putter I forget the name of it like it’s not ISO Force but it was like it was like the the the answer I I think it was the answer I which was remember it had it had like the pixel face I do yes I do that’s my all time and then alltime ball is the ball I play right now which is Chrome T dot which is my Xander Ball but that’s my all time I want to hear what your alltime bag is oh man this is a tough question um okay I probably I had the Ping isi driver but I talked them into painting it orange for me soim yeah was at Oklahoma State we talked him into painting this driver head orange which was phenomenal the graphalloy driver shaft remember that got really popular yeah the yes gra tour graphy tour the black one with the gold R sorry sry that was it yeah yeah yeah the tour the Tour X yeah and then um and then you also had the tour double X remember that was a board yeah um Three Wood was the old Titleist PT remember that three wood yeah um Three Wood was gorgeous you have interrupted did you ever have a 970 did you ever get your hands on any the 970 stuff never did never did the pt3 was the one you’re talking about but then Larry bobka who I’m sure you know decided he was going to make one that looked a little bit different it’s the same thing it’s a pt13 but he put 970 that’s the famous Tiger Woods three wood that he had yes okay well there you go okay keep going um and boy he h that good yeah he did the IR no doubt were the Ping the isi nickel yeah um the isi Nickels were awesome they were man they felt soft um you know that was in the day when ping got criticized for not forging a club and they feel too hard and all that like these actually felt soft right um wedge uh wedges oh the the old ping I2 lob wedge with that wide Soul yeah um man I missed that club where they you could in the bunkers and everything and even Phil still of toys with that bottom even y did you see the wedge that we talked about this before on U on another podcast and I have pictures of it he showed it to me I was at oill two years ago for the PGA and I’m walking down the range and he goes Wonder come here and he so he got Garrett Pawn who I think you’ve met a Callaway yes they started screwing around because ping because Phil’s always had a ping I to in the bag somewhere he always brings it with him right like he’s always had a lobber he got Callaway to Mill him a ping I2 he’s got a mill ping I2 Callaway wedge with a full face I’ll see pictures it’s the crazy it’s probably a $30,000 wedge there’s only one of them that’s cool so anyway keep going wow so ping I2 lob wedge what about the putter yeah it oh putter the Ping b60 now do different iterations of it or whatnot you remember the one that had the clear face it had ping written behind it in the face yeah was it called the iso pure or something yeah remember anyway that one that was I think my that was my favorite one God they should bring that back that was such a good putter oh it was a great putter a little bit bigger and that insert yeah because I’ve always liked the white hot inserts like for whatever the feel of the white hot that was very close to that um but listen I mean you look at like gear in different you know generations and times right right where I think like I think nowadays so many companies make good stuffff is you almost have to try more stuff now you can’t just wipe any you can’t right you can’t wipe anything off the board right you can’t say oh that’s garbage that’s garbage no it’s actually not like you really need to test it and try it because you may just find something because every golfer on year that one club or that one driver that is that has been like man even if I make a poorish swing it’s awesome right and I think that’s really cool and that’s the fun thing too and we’ll wrap this up I mean I think you know the fun thing is with fitting and everything else and like you talked about data and we talk we covered a lot of topics but like if you you know you can find really really good golf clubs I think the hardest part now is because there’s so much product hitting the market all the time I will advise anybody Charlie you can attest to this when you find a good golf club keep it like keep using it Until It Breaks like you can go test new stuff but that’s your tip for the day always keep that one always keep the good stuff well uh yes sir so this is uh this has been you know something that Charlie and I have been wanting to do for a long time uh we’re working on some other stuff if you guys like this podcast and you like the Charlie how Johnny Wonder combo uh we might have something for you we’re talking about some stuff so um Charlie always a pleasure it’s just you know this is basically you and I talking on the phone but essentially uh we’re getting recorded we’re going to put our one of our conversations out to the world but I appreciate you uh giving fully equipped the time today and um that was fun dude yeah that was nice well that was a lot of fun and hopefully uh hopefully don’t get fired and we can we can do more and uh the fellow yeah to all the fellow golfers out there keep playing uh we all love the game and uh Johnny we’ll we’ll do this again soon we’ll do it again soon and we’ll see you uh we’ll see you in Miami I’ll be with you all next week so we’ll be uh we’ll be live and in person all right we’ll see you in Miami all right guys right yall have a great afternoon thanks buddy thanks [Music] you