For many motor racing fans, the month of May means one thing: The Indianapolis 500. Famously known as ‘the greatest spectacle in racing’, the Indy 500 captured American hearts from its inception in 1911 – but the race has also tantalised Europe’s racing elite over the years, charmed by its big prize pot and unique challenge.
On this episode, Matt Bishop (journalist, editor, novelist and PR) and Richard Williams (journalist, author and broadcaster) take a look at the roots of oval racing and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway itself, before focusing on famous European incursions at the great American race.
Tune in for stories about the wine-drinking Frenchman who triumphed in 1913, Ferrari’s ill-fated attempt at the 500 in 1952, Lotus’ ultimately victorious campaign at The Brickyard in the 1960s, and much more. Plus, Matt gives us his personal recollections of working alongside Fernando Alonso during the Spaniard’s fabulous (but fruitless) attempt at the 500 in 2017, and Richard takes us back to the early 1990s, when he witnessed first-hand Nigel Mansell’s two participations at Indy in 1993 and 1994.
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[Music] the summer games minute brought to you by Mass Mutual for most professional athletes versatility means they can play a few different positions in a single sport for babe dietr and aarius versatility means dominance across the entire spectrum of sport in the 1932 Summer Games in Los Angeles Saharas won Gold in the 80 M hurdles and the javelin throw plus she got a silver in the high jump running throwing jumping wasn’t enough for babe so she became a competitive Billiards player then jumped into professional golf winning 10 major championships all the while making a few pitching appearances in Major League Baseball spring training games Mass Mutual understands the nuances and how women want and need to manage their finances with quality product Solutions and guidance a Mass Mutual Financial professional can help you plan for both shortterm and long-term money goals learn more and get started at massmutual.com Ryan Reynolds here from mmobile with the price of just about everything going up during inflation we thought we’d bring our prices down so to help us we brought in a reverse Auctioneer which is apparently a thing mmobile unlimited premium Wireless get 30 30 get 30 get 20 20 20 get 20 20 get 15 15 15 15 just 15 bucks a month so give it a try at midmobile mobile.com /s $45 up front for 3 months plus taxes and fees promate for new customers for limited time unlimited more than 40 GB per month slows full terms at mintmobile.com the athletic hello and welcome to and colossally that’s history I’m Matt bishop and I’m Richard Williams and on today’s show we’re taking a left turn well several left turns s actually Richard because we’re going to be chatting about the Indie 500 the Indianapolis 500 the so-called greatest spectacle in racing so let’s paint a picture shall we it’s 4:00 a.m. on race day it’s 1993 the Year Nigel Manel first went to Indie and I’m in my motel room in downtown Indianapolis in time to get to the speedway by five an hour before an aerial bomb a sort of flare with a bang signals the opening of the gates I’ve got a pass that gets me into in early so I’m one of the first on the premises even before The Gangs of cleaners turn up to make sure everything’s and span somehow I get to park my rental car down by the old snake pit the infield at turn one notoriously the sight of all sorts of all- American debauchery during the race weekend and then I watch watch the sun come up over Gasoline Alley as the garages are known and the first of 400 100,000 ticket holders start to stream in over the next 6 hours I see the whole Indie 500 pre-race pageantry the parade of the racers honorary Grand Marshall the great basketball player Larry Bird on this occasion and the 500 Festival Queen and her princesses another parade this time of the official pace car followed by the introduction of the drivers each in an open top car the mass ranks of the Purdue University All American marching band playing on the banks of the war bash as the cars are wheeled onto the grid just as they’ve done since 1919 apparently there’s a solemn invocation by the Archbishop of Indianapolis the playing of taps or the last post since this is Memorial Day weekend the US version of Remembrance Day and a fly past of F-16 fast jets with one space purposely left the missing man formation and the final elements of the ritual Florence Henderson singing the Star Spangled Banner Jim Neighbors singing back home again in Indiana with the Purdue band neighbors is dead now but he did it almost every year from 1972 to 2014 and then the famous instruction ladies and gentlemen start your engines modified when Janet Guthrie broke the gender barrier in 1977 and on this day recognizing the presence on the grid of Lin St James and if that doesn’t get get your spine tinkling wait for the Sight and Sound of 33 cars on the parade laps 11 rows running three AB breast in perfect formation behind the pace car the ominous drone of thousands and thousands of horsepower being rained in as the sense of anticipation Rises and by the time the honorary starter waves the green flag it’s almost unbearable and it’s something I wouldn’t have missed for the world well Richard A really evocative anecdote that one uh and we’re going to hear more about your trips to Indianapolis later on but everything you’ve just said feels very familiar to me because I too have been to the Indie 500 wonderful experience I went there later than you I went there in 2017 with Fernando Alonso when he raced in what we at McLaren referred to as a McLaren well or at least a McLaren entry uh it was a bit of a stretch to be honest because in truth it was a papaya painted orange painted delara Honda run by the andreti team and it therefore had almost nothing to do with McLaren but hey same difference anyway the Indie 500 really is the most wonderful spectacle uh and I’m going to be speaking about my experiences of it with Fernando a little later on because this episode is all about European incursions into and at the Great American race race because European drivers and manufacturers have had an onoff LoveHate relationship with the Indie 500 haven’t they Richard yes they have indeed uh the events largely been dominated by American drivers and historically by American cars and engines down the years but there have been some fascinating European attempts at the 500 starting in the very earliest days and we’re going to focus on some of those stories in this episode we are indeed so I suppose I suppose a good place to start would be with a brief history of oval racing because as a form of motor racing it was something that took particular hold in the United States and for good reason yes the origin of oval racetracks was in horse racing or more specifically harness racing known in Europe as trotting which probably goes all the way back to Chariot racing at the circus maximus in ancient Rome and Ben her uh in the USA in the 19th century harness racing usually took place on one mile dirt oval tracks some of our listeners might have heard of the mil walki mile which is the world’s oldest oval Racetrack and it was originally a venue for horses I guess it’s not too unlike how dog tracks are commonly used in this country for stock car racing and Speedway um it’s interesting because in Europe early Motor Racing took place on public roads and you had those great City to City races you you know Paris to Madrid and so on um and then round towns like deep but in America there seem much less appetite for that sort of thing especially as the wide availability of horse racing tracks at State and County Fairgrounds made great places for auto racing yeah I mean that’s true isn’t it the what is often regarded as the first ever Grand Prix the 1906 French grandprix was at Lamar but it wasn’t at lar in the sense that we mean that it was a 60 something mile circuit wasn’t it between from Village to Village well outside the m in fact yes on on narrow public roads exactly and by the way I do commend you so early in our episode to mention greyhound racing and the circus Maximus within a minute of each mention anyway going back to the subject I believe the first automobile race or Horseless Carriage race in order to keep your circus Maximus um theme going on an oval actually took place in 1896 so 10 years before the very first Grand Prix at the rad Island State Fair and one of the benefits of staging a race on an oval designed for horse racing is that unlike a race on public roads as we’ve described it’s an enclosed environment so you can charge Spectators to watch very important particularly to Americans then and now then and now and that’s one of the reasons why racing in America became professional so quickly now talking of the rad Island State Fair which you mentioned earlier and one mile dirt oval tracks permit me a little digression if you will um in the year 2000 which was when a bastardized version of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway uh first hosted the United States Grand Prix I remember going with our mutual friend the great journalist Nigel robuk on the Friday evening before the Grand Prix to the hosia 100 at the Indiana State Fair which was a small oval race for dirt cars it was held on the same weekend as the Grand Prix because it had been cancelled owing to Heavy Rain on the date it was supposed to have been run which was I think in late May anyway I absolutely loved it um but I digress I should point out that um while we often tend to think of over ing as uniquely American and quite understandably so the first purpose-built banked oval track in the world actually the first if I’m not mistaken the first purpose-built Motor Racing circuit full stop was in Europe here in the UK Brooklyn’s yeah it was indeed Brooklyn’s was built in 1907 in the leafy s sry stock broker belt as the brainchild of Hugh forcu lot King a British entrepreneur who decided that Britain needed to have its own motor testing track in order for the British car industry to be able to compete with manufacturers from Europe and actually Brooklyn’s was the inspiration for the Indianapolis Motor Speedway um Carl G fiser an Indianapolis entrepreneur who’d made Millions through the manufacturer of car headlights in the early 20th century and also run what’s believed to have been America’s first car dealership the first of quite a few uh visited Brooklyn’s in 1907 and went away with plans to build the world’s greatest racetrack back in Indianapolis which is where a lot of motor Motor Manufacturing was going on at the time so like lot King in the UK Fisher saw India as a place to give manufacturers a chance to test cars at sustained high speeds and give drivers a chance to learn their limits both of which I think you can say were achieved over absolutely were um and he also saw the value of ovals as better for spectators than Ro courses as they’d get to see more of the cars which makes total sense and the track he conceived back then has remained you know more or less unchanged it’s still a 2 and 1/2 Mile rectangular or almost rectangular oval although surface the surface the track surface is a lot smoother today than it was back then it was gravel to kick off wasn’t it yes they started uh laying the track down for the first time in March 1909 uh and actually it held its first race less than 6 months later the original surface was what they call gravel and tar sort of layers of hard packed Stones mixed with tar and sealed down but the problem with that was that the surface quickly got rutted and you had the danger then of stones and tar and all sorts of things being kicked up yeah so just as with early racing in Europe uh the whole business let’s be honest about it was incredibly dangerous yep that exactly what happened at leamon for instance a very unstable surface and eventually they got around to sealing it and and making it a bit more stable absolutely so this has been a universal um uh safety issue y uh of racing over the past 100 and something years really um so it was very dangerous in those days which nobody’s surprised to hear that oval racing was was dangerous 115 years ago guess what nobody’s surprised to hear that and in that first car me you mentioned Richard in August 1909 several drivers riding mechanics cuz don’t forget they were always riding mechanics and Spectators were killed and the American Automobile Association which oversaw it all naturally enough demanded improvements and that’s when Fischer and his Partners settled on Paving the entire circuit with bricks I believe 3.2 million of them if I’m not mistaken um giving of course the circuit its famous nickname which uh survives to this day the brickyard and of course a yard of those very bricks remains exposed at the finish line today all the way across the track just a yard and if you’re in the grandstand near there or in the pits near the near the Finish Line you hear the slap from the tires as the cars go over them and actually they were Ash felting the track starting in the 1930s uh when they did it they they left the original bricks underneath as a foundation so they’re still there and it still really is the Brickyard it absolutely is um and although we won’t spend all of this podcast talking about individual races individual Indie 500s I think it’s worth mentioning the first Indie 500 because it’s very evocative particularly evocative of that particular era of racing so it was held on the 30th of May 1911 there were four starters uh and and 85,000 Spectators apparently and they saw the first ever Mass rolling start because rolling starts are still used in indie car racing today whereas obviously in Europe we’ve always had standing starts so that’s one of the big differences uh in racing on both sides of the pond then and now anyway tragically only 12 laps had elapsed just 12 12 laps before the first Indie 500 death took place I feel I’m I’m focusing on death a bit and maybe a bit too morbid but I’m afraid it is an unavoidable subject when we’re talking about racing more than a 100 years ago uh but it wasn’t a driver because what happened was one of the front wheels came off the car that Arthur Griner was driving so he was flung out of his amplex car amplex that’s a name to conjure with uh I think they that they went out of business in you know around 1915 so forgiven for not having heard of amplex if anyone’s listening that hasn’t anyway he was flung out of his amplex car still clutching its steering wheel and he suffered a broken arm bad but not too bad but his riding mechanic Sam Dixon was crushed crushed under the car and I’d just like to read you this little passage from The New York Times report of the race to give you a sense of the atmosphere and if I could call it the truly rabid fascination of the spectators there at that time it goes as follows the crowd was too big to be controlled by a company of militia and hundreds of special policemen were posted about the grounds The Spectators swarmed across the infield when Dixon was killed and pressed close about his body and that of the unconscious Griner soldiers had to Club their guns to clear a space for the surgeons when the ambulance arrived just imagine that Richard just imagine it sounds more like the wild west or perhaps the wild Midwest we could call it than a race report and sadly sadly Arthur Griner never got over it he ended up in what Americans then called a sanitarium a mental hospital what we would Now call a mental hospital and he died in that sanitarium in Milwaukee 6 years later after a nervous breakdown anyway back to Indie 19 1911 uh The Spectators Fascination well some of the spectators obviously not all of them but their Fascination was so morbid that they risked their own lives by running across the track to stare at Close Quarters at the victims of that terrible crash yet the race went on the show went on while the drivers swerved around the track Invaders as they crossed the track I mean it really was the wild Midwest wasn’t it anyway the race was won somewhat controversially by Ray harun driving his famous Maron wasp which those who’ve been to the Goodwood Revival or Festival of speed over the years may be familiar with I say controversially because there was some dispute as to whether he was in fact in the lead at the end at the Finish anyway you know I love my anorak facts Richard I often tweet about anorak facts uh and here’s one for you every driver in the race except harun had a riding mechanic alongside him and his job was not only to work on the car but also to act as a spotter Haron didn’t feel he needed one because he was using a new fangled invention guess what it was a rear view mirror I think it’s probably an exaggeration to say that he invented that but it was certainly the first time it ever been used on a racing car and on that utterly golden anct fact from Matt it feels like a good time to take our first break you know we love talking stats here at the athletic here’s one that’s super simple to remember discover automatically doubles the cash back you’ve earned on your credit card at the end of your first year with cash back match that means with discover you could turn $150 cash back to $300 that’s right you could put it towards some memorabilia you’ve had your eye on or treat yourself to a premium Sports Network you earn and discover doubles see terms at discover.com creditcard Ryan Reynolds here from mmobile with the price of just about everything going up during inflation we thought we’d bring our prices down so to help us we brought in a reverse Auctioneer which is apparently a thing M mobile unlimited premium Wireless every get 30 30 get 30 bet get 20 20 20 bet get 20 20 bet get 15 15 15 15 just 15 bucks a month so give it a try at mintmobile.com switch $45 up front for 3 months plus taxes and fees promo for new customers for limited time unlimited more than 40 gbes per month slows full terms at mintmobile.com so in part one we gave you a brief history of oval racing and the Indie 500 itself but let’s get on are talking about European incursions into the Indie 500 because they started early didn’t they Richard yeah they did and no doubt the Europeans were attracted by the purse on offer for the first Indie 500 in 1911 the total purse was $25,000 which was equivalent so they say to roughly 40 kilos of pure gold wow the purse was doubled for the following year and it’s been going up ever since always well ahead of Grand Prix prize money today it’s $17 million of which The Winner Takes about 4 million um there were some European built cars used in that very first race but one of the first European marks to come across with more of a Bonafide effort if you like was the French manufacturer perso in 1913 they came with their l76 Grand Prix car which had turned in some impressive victories in Grand Prix in Europe and that was thanks in no small part to its revolutionary four-cylinder engine with with double overhead cams and four valves per cylinder which basically set the pattern for the modern combustion engine and racing engines in general for the rest of the 20th century um persio entered two cars for the 1913 race one for juul guo who’d actually helped design the car and one for Paulo zucarelli zucarelli retired from the race but goo went on to become the first European winner claiming Victory by 13 minutes and 8 seconds which is still the biggest winning margin in Indie 500 history a route by [Laughter] goo um but what’s even more remarkable about this Victory Is by is that by the time he reached the cheed flag press reports at the time suggested that he may have drunk as much as six bottles of wine during the race in in a race report of the time in the local paper the Indianapolis star goo was quoted as saying at his first Pit Stop which roughly translates into give me a bottle of wine or I’m done for I think most people would have been done for by the volume of wine y let alone the absence of it not our Jewel so again according to the paper some pitmen were sent to the grandstand in search of the necessary bottle of liquid encouragement and one of them happened on a party from from Pittsburgh a noted Center of wine culture of course who’ placed a number of bets on goo they came to the rescue and sent the Pitman back with half a bottle of vintage plonk chatau Pittsburgh no doubt and quoting directly from the paper now jeel saw him coming and snatching a bottle from him as he reached the track cracked the neck of the bottle on the retaining wall and permitted the contents to trickle down his throat wetting his tonsils as it went then back into his seat he leapt and from that time on the outcome of the great motor struggle was little in doubt what a story what an incredible story thank you Richard and actually that was the first another anara fact here that was the first of four straight victories for European machines before World War I of course caused a break a 2-year break only though because war was declared in 1914 and the indd 500 was run that year 1914 and in 1915 and in 1916 to but not in 1917 or 1918 anyway going back to 1914 when incidentally alcoholic consumption was banned during the race poor old Goo uh Renee Thomas won in a delage uh then in 1915 Ralph dep Palmer won in a 4.5 l Mercedes Grand Prix car uh then perso won again in 1916 with Dario resta driving rester was born in Italy at fenza by the way near IMA but he moved to Britain with his family at the age of two and sadly he was later killed at Brooklyn’s uh attempting to break the land speed record and permit me another little digression the name Dario resta always reminds me of a mix of two other British racing drivers of Italian descent Dario frankii and Paul Desta Dario frankii who later became part of the Indie story absolutely did absolutely did but I am digressing again uh yeah I suppose the next European achievement of note was that of Maserati who won backto back Indie 500s in 1939 and 1940 with the American race of Wilbur Shaw at the wheel uh Shaw had actually won in 1937 at the wheel of his own Shaw Gil more special accompanied by one Johnson in the last year riding mechanics were used nicknames were great in those days American nickname is fantastic fabulous Johnson I know yeah I know who wouldn’t win with him sitting in your passenger seat um Maserati’s two wins were really important to the company because they’d been in financial difficulties as Maserati has been so often throughout its history and the Maserati brothers were having to sell their shares to another family the AES in 19 1937 in order to stay afloat uh but with a bit more stability thanks to the horses anesto Maserati was able to design the beautiful hctf possibly well in my view anyway the prettiest car ever to win the 500 but then I think front engine cars are prettier than rear engine cars in in all eras I think I’m I I I would probably have a soft spot for the the Indie roaders of the 50s absolutely gorgeous yeah we’ll come back to them yeah yeah uh anyway for the 500 the Maserati was Rec christened the boil special uh because it had been bought for Wilbur Shaw to drive by a man called Mike Bole a racing Enthusiast who’d actually made his fortune from running the Electrical Workers Trade union in Chicago the way one did back then yeah and so it was entered as a boil special uh and as I said Shore took it to victory in both 1939 and 1940 and was actually on course for his historic hatrick in 1941 when a late puncture cost him the win very sad yeah but at a time when Maserati was getting thrashed in Grand Prix racing by Mercedes and Auto Union the German State teams these victories really helped them to build their reputation in the United States that’s a very good point absolutely because you know the Silver Arrows were destroying them really in Europe at that time PR racing they were yes so that’s Maserati but we should probably talk now about two of Maserati’s big rivals on the Grand Prix scene Mercedes and Ferrari um now Mercedes first let’s say a number of Mercedes Grand Prix cars took part in the Indie 500 uh We’ve we’ve already mentioned Ralph dep’s winning car in 1915 but they never actually sent a factory team to the race although there are reports that they were extremely close to doing so especially with the w154 in 19 1938 but fascinatingly one of those I mean truly magnificent w154 MCS uh which we spoke about actually on our earlier episode the one we when we were talking about how Nazis the Nazis weaponized motor racing in the 1930s one of those w154 Merks did end up racing in the Indie 500 believe it or not because after the second world war w 154 chassis number n to be precise was discovered in Czechoslovakia present day Czech Republic where it had been hidden during the War hidden for safekeeping theyd hidden them all over the place hadn’t they I think Alfred noar the team manager made sure that they were uh put in mine shafts and all sorts of things anywhere where they could be not found and destroyed or nicked really anyway it eventually that car ended up in the hands of Don Lee an American who entered the car in the 1947 indd 500 for Duke naon who was nicknamed The Iron Duke nicknames again who wouldn’t want to be uh to ask a man called The Iron Duke to race his car anyway according to naon uh the Iron Duke the back seat was marked with the words Von brich which gives you an idea of the provenance of the car because of course Manfred Von brage would have raced it in Europe in the 1930s uh naon said of that car by the way and I quote it was the most comfortable race car I ever drove anyway a blown piston meant he failed to finish the race so sad end or reasonably sad end to that story um the car was actually entered to race uh in this in the IND 500 in 1948 as well for Chad Miller but he too failed to finish and actually in 1949 the year after that the great Merc team boss Mercedes team boss Alfred nobow turned up at Indie because he wanted to investigate the feasibility of a work smirk entry for 1951 but that never happened uh it never came to pass so Mercedes finally scored I think we’d have to say a memorable Indie 500 victory in 1994 so quite a long time later having created with more in an incredible push rod V8 which they nicknamed the Beast we’re doing well with nicknames at the moment I have to notice anyway nickname the Beast which powered alonsa Jr to victory in a Pensky MK it was a Pensky chass but a Merc the8 um but that’s about as close to a Works MC effort as there’s ever been but anyway I’m jumping forward a bit Richard because it’s your turn to talk about Ferrari and Ferrari attempted the Indie 500 in the 1950s didn’t they yes they did in 1952 and that was an interesting year because the Formula 1 World Championship which had been inaugurated in 1950 was suddenly being run to Formula 2 regulations which put the maximum capacity of engines at 2 lers uh now the Indianapolis 500 is one of the world’s greatest races was actually part of the world championship series from 1950 to 1960 but it was still run to its own regulations so Ferrari were able to enter the race with a version of their 1951 Spec 4 and A2 liter Grand Prix car the mighty 375 Indianapolis right uh and so Ferrari hope that winning the race would help crack the American Road car market so he decided not to enter his star driver Alberto ascari in the Monaco Grand Prix run for sports cars that year or the season opening Swiss Grand Prix and in instead he sent him to take on the full might of the Americans at Indianapolis alone do do you think that Enzo Ferrari’s motivation might partly have been uh a response to orbe it a belated one to Maserati’s success in the late 30s oh very likely cuz there was such a terrific rivalry you know they were both based in the same town uh and um and he’d seen what Maserati had done to promote itself in the states sure so yeah the uh that was the decision for him um and understandably you know when it got to uh Indianapolis it was the source of enormous attention um but in the end it proved a bit of a damp squib ascari could only qualify 19th fastest and only lasted 40 laps of the race when a hub went on one of the wheels and and it and the wheel collapsed um so Indianapolis went down as the only World Championship race in 1952 that ascari entered and didn’t win because he won six others and the world title in the all conquering 2 L Ferrari 500 uh Ferrari almost came back to Indianapolis IN 1986 when Eno got his designer gust out Bruner to draw up a special car for the 500 but sadly the Ferrari 637 never got out of Marinello um I don’t know if you’ve been to the museum there Matt I have but the that that aborted indie car is a star exhibit there it really is it’s such a shame in some ways that it a great shame but actually it did its job because what it really was was a bluff to frighten the FIA who were trying to change the Formula 1 engine regulations and Ando wanted to put pressure on them not to so the threat of giving up Formula 1 and going to race in America was enough to do the trick which threat that Ferrari has made on a Serial basis for the past half century sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t uh I suppose we should also mention that um another Italian manufacturer delara has won 17 of the last 22 Indie 500s which isn’t entirely surprising not that surprising not really cuz they’ve been the sole chassis supplier to the Indie Car Series since 2007 uh first the first winner was Eddie cha uh in 1998 fondly remembered by F1 fans y uh and the most recent great helmet design great one of the in the days when you could still recognize a driver abely by the helmet yes indeed uh and the most recent uh of delara’s winds was last year with Joseph newgarden um and actually since 2012 the cars have been made not in Italy but a delara factory especially built close to the speedway how about that anyway let’s go back to the ascari era because he wasn’t the only 1950s former 1 World Champion to have a go at the Indie 500 was he I mean let’s talk about the greatest or one of the uh candidates for the greatest of all time Juan Manuel fanjo now he just won his Fifth and final Formula 1 World Championship when he gave the Indie 500 a go in 1958 he’ obviously won it in 1957 his fifth world championship and he was offered $20,000 uh which must have been an absolute fortune in those days um $20,000 to qualify a Curtis offen Houser by The Cars owner George Walther Jr now let me just say something about offen Houser because I’ve always thought the name offenhauer was wonderfully Glam uh and perhaps even more Glam somehow when abbreviated to ofie I love the name offie um the offie was a big old four-cylinder lump of an engine um and it dominated American Open Wheel racing for wait for it wait for it more than 50 years 50 years it started life actually in the 1930s as a marine engine an engine for boats I mean um and all told offie powered cars won the Indie 500 27 times that’s amazing isn’t it 50 50 years that makes that makes the Cosworth dfv look like as I a BP yeah ex a little blip um no massively uh impressive and in the end I mean it kept being developed this is a four-cylinder engine remember in the end the ofie acquired a turbo and in that spec it was pumping out more than a, brake horsepower um and the last time an offie powered car was raced in an American Open Wheel racing uh was in 1982 all the way on to 1982 and it actually won an Open Wheel race as late as 19 1978 and that was at Trenton New Jersey and the driver was Gordon jonok and the car was a wild cat and the engine would have been behind the driver in that one but by that time by that time and I can hardly imagine a more wonderfully American sounding driver circuit car engine combo than Gordon johncock TR and news Jersey wild cat Ary forb forgive my bad American accent but couldn’t say it in my RP English could I anyway let’s go back to uh fanjo and 1958 his Curtis offen house a Curtis offie uh proved a bit of a dud he didn’t make it into the race actually um but by that stage he was 47 47 years old and really very close to the end of His Brilliant career in fact only 6 weeks later I think it was at Reams he got out of his his Maserati after finishing fourth in the French Grand Prix and said it is finished but to be fair to the Maestro he he was still the best classified Maserati driver in that race with no fewer than six masera is classified behind him so I think it was his high standards really and his standards were very high they were the highest um we didn’t see Bonafide F1 Superstars back at Indianapolis until 196 1 uh by which time the 500 been had been taken off the F1 world championship calendar uh which is a bit of a shame really because it was always rather an amusing anomaly to have you look at the end of the season you look at the standings and you’d have this bunch of American drivers all with one you know points from One race to their next and you suddenly find that you know sixth was Roger Ward or something like that and ah head of castellotti you think how why did that happen anyway um 1961 was when John Cooper entered one of his F1 Cooper climaxes for Jack braam the reigning world champion it was the first proper car at Indie with its engine behind the driver and it was about half the size of the conventional uh front engineed Indie roadsters so the Lo locals saw it as a bit of a joke yeah uh anyway until braam qualified 13th and finished ninth on the same lap as AJ FS winning Travis offie and then Colin Chapman the Lotus boss and a famous innovator uh was attracted to Indie because of the huge prize money Chapman liked a bit of money didn’t I believe so yes um and obviously the money was Far bigger than most European races so he went over for the first time in 1963 with two specially built cars for Jim Clark his number one driver in F1 and Dan gurny um who when he raced against Clark in F1 some people thought was his was Jim’s only real rival didn’t Clark say I think wasn’t the quote he is the only driver I ever really feared yeah I think it was yeah great driver so pretty good to have them in the same team unbelievable Clark finished second and gurny was seventh and this is one of those occasions when uh there was some dispute about the winner of the Indianapolis 500 as there had been in the very first race yeah and Clark would have won had the stewards not been talked into not showing the Black Flag for the winner Parnelli Jones an All-American boy whose allamerican Roadster was leaking allamerican oil from a cracked tank in the closing stages uh and for Jim getting the Rookie of the Year award wasn’t really much consolation for a man on the way to his first world championship I bet it wasn’t but they were back next year the following year with a new car for Clark and the same old one for an American driver Bobby marshman um they qualified first and second uh and both of them LED both of them led the race before Clark went out with a broken suspension caused by a burst Tire apparently and marshman went off the track and lost a lot of oil uh there had been a seven car crash uh in which the 1961 winner Eddie sex and the sports car Ace Dave McDonald Had both been killed and it was a horrible race a horrible race and in the end AJ F scored the last Indie 500 victory for a front engine roadster I mean it should have been a wonderful occasion because great driver great car Great era of cars as I say I love those uh uh 50s and 60s um Indie roadsters but of course it wasn’t because of the tragedies and his car the winning car was a Watson offie uh actually you can see it you talked about um museums the Ferrari Museum you can see that Watson offie uh at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Museum um and it’s still in the condition in which it finished the race it looks fantastic yeah I’ve got a a friend who says that the music you hear between the ages of 12 and 25 is what stays with you forever and it’s a bit like that with cars except I think probably the age span is five and 15 from dinky toys to when you first fall in really fall in love and see your first races and those roadsters to me were what India was about you know offset roadsters so they only really went around leftand turns they were built to specifically to turn left and not right single seater but the driver on one side exactly all everything offset suspension and everything and beautiful liveries wonderful yeah and great names you know the dean Lan Dean Van Line special and the John zinc leader card special lots of specials lots of special and and always with hyen offi at the end exactly exactly anyway where were we we were we were we were with Clark and Chapman in the 60s and Clark and Chapman got their revenge in 1965 when Clark skipped the Monaco Grand Prix as Fernando Alonso would many years later but we’ll come to that so he skipped the Monaco Grand Prix which was the same weekend and he won the Indie 500 I mean in fine style because he led 190 of the 200 laps and of the 33 cars in the field um only six by that point were old style beautiful roadsters um which does show you to be fair how quickly the Americans had does this sound jingoistic had um submitted to the British Invasion um just perhaps as the Beatles and the stones had been taking over the US charts but this is your area and Freddy and the dream is and Jerry and The Pacemakers let us not forget how how how dare I not think of them I don’t know who was the Freddy and the dreamers of of of European Grand Pre racing it’s another podcast yeah anyway there had been a bit of a stir caused when Chapman had brought in the famous Twan Wood Brothers pit crew from Nascar um to work on Clark’s Fuel and tire stops but it was over engineering or over egging the pudding really because they were completely unemployed well underemployed I should say unemployed during the race because Clark’s Lotus stopped only twice for fuel whereas obviously roaders would stop more often uh and it did the whole race on the same set of tires so Clark won by a mile uh and uh his unchallenged win made him the first non us born winner since Gaston Chevrolet in 1920 although Gaston Chevrolet had become an American citizen by then I think that qualifies as an Anor fact Richard don’t you oh a very special one indeed Matt and that achievement also put Clark on the cover of Time Magazine with the headline the quickest Man On Wheels now people today might not understand the significance of the cover of Time Magazine but if you got that it meant you were a world figure it was a biggie I I remember when Janice Joplin was due to to be on the cover in the 1960s such a big thing and then Dwight Eisenhower the former president died and they they replaced her on the cover with him and her great quote was 14 heart attacks and he has to die in my week so so that’s what the cover of Time Magazine went um but Jim was out of luck again A year later or was he uh to this day well it’s a big question isn’t it it is because to this day no one seems completely sure whether Graham Hill really won the 1966 race in one of John mom’s Lola Fords becoming the first Englishman to win the race exactly eight weeks before England won the football World Cup at Wembley right at the start in 1966 there was an 11c car crash in which amazingly the only injury was suffered by AJ Foy who damaged his hand while climbing up the safety fence in order to try and get away from any fires that might break out Goodness Me Clark would have won if he hadn’t spun twice Jackie Stewart and Graham Hill were both rookies and Jackie LED until his oil pressure disappeared with 10 laps to go handing Graham the win but did it well did it Carry On official lap counting was still done manually in those days and Clark’s crew believed that his laps had been miscounted when he made two brief stops to check for damage after the spins and some believed that Gordon jonok who was placed fourth was the real winner he’d started from the pit Lane after repair to the damage from the crash at the start and his first lap wasn’t counted by the officials and he’d finished on the same lap as the winner so the record books say that Graham was the winner and that he’s therefore the only man in history to win The Unofficial Triple Crown of the Indie 500 The Monaco Grand Prix and the 24 hours of lemon and the record books are never wrong are they that indeed they aren’t unless they are um by the way Damon Hill listens to our podcast and um I hope that he Damon if you’re listening I hope you’re not upset to hear us um not pouring scorn but casting doubt on your father’s great achievement um you can reply on Twitter can’t you it’s in the record books anyway let’s hope Gordon jonok of course Graham Hill is not alive very sadly but let’s hope Gordon J Co doesn’t get any Felipe Massa inspired litigation ideas eh uh and that feels like a good time to go for another short [Music] break so our Walts down memory lane or should that be Victory Lane or perhaps Gasoline Alley has so far taken us up to the mid 1960s but I want to fast forward a little now um so that we can talk about some of our own personal experiences of the Indie 500 which actually are relevant to our specific subject because they have coincided with other big moments for Europeans at Indie uh as I’ve mentioned before on our podcast I worked for McLaren as comm’s director communications director uh for many years from 208 to 2017 in fact and McLaren is of course another European team with an incredible pedigree uh at the Indianapolis 500 uh McLaren cars were driven to victory in three times in the70s 1972 1974 and 1976 to be fair in 1972 the winner was Mark Donahue um in a Pensky entered and run McLaren offie uh and in 1974 and in 1976 it was a full Works McLaren entry a McLaren off again driven by Lone Star Jr AKA Johnny raford by the way look I love Johnny runford I absolutely love Johnny Rutherford he was a two-time Indie 500 winner both times in mcclaren’s and then a one-time winner making three in total in a chaparal what a beautiful car that Chapparal was that yellow Peno shap absolutely very elegant un elegant you know the first really successful ground effect Indie Car wonderful car anyway I engaged him to be a McLaren brand ambassador for um the 2017 Indie 500 uh asked him and obviously we paid him and you know did a deal with him uh asked him to attend race day and also the whole week leading up to race day uh so that we could Trot him out for TV interviews and press interviews and the like um and sponsor stuff so that Fernando Alonso could get on with trying to get used to a totally different discipline of racing um without being too distracted by media work which Fernando is never that Keen on Modern Formula 1 drivers never really are particularly if they’re successful um which of course Fernando is um or has been uh although of course I mean Fernando had to do a bit of it anyway Johnny and I got to know each other quite well during that period a wonderful privilege and um for me and as I say you know what a great guy he is the word which is often overused but we’re going to use it and I think it’s fair is Legend he was 80 odd 80 odd then I think he’s 86 now and but he remembered everything he’s one of these guys he remembered everything from his glorious career and that era um although he was incredibly humble about it um and here’s a thing here’s a thing I’d been hanging out with him in the andreti Hospitality unit because of course andreti was running the car that we were at a stretch calling a McLaren um one of one afternoon on the on the days leading up to the race I was hanging out having a coffee with uh with with Johnny Johnny Rutherford when we were joined by Mario andreti and Nigel robach so I was I was sitting with Johnny Rutherford Mario andreti and Nigel robok I mean I have to say you know I’m 61 now so you know uh I know you’re in your 70s old boy and Nigel is in his 70s and Mario and Johnny are both in their 80s but the idea of 12-year-old me reading Autosport being able to sit and have a cup of coffee with Mario andreti and Johnny Rutherford and M Johnny Nigel robot I mean it’s quite extraordinary still extraordinary to me um and now you have to sit here and listen to me I do I do I do but I that’s what I did when I was the four of us in I didn’t talk I just listened I just listened to andreti raford and robuk talking what a privilege just fantastic uh and at one point Lone Star Jr Johnny rord um he popped he popped away to make a coffee for himself or popped to the L I don’t know what he went away for I can’t remember the uh now and Mario said raford was very very quick especially in qualifying um and then he said maybe the quickest of my time when it came to really nailing a Flatout lap on a super speedway at knocking 200 mil hour um later after Mario and Nigel had gone I told Johnny what Mario had said about him and in the loveliest way he had a bit of a moment he said uh he said well I never knew Mary I never knew that Mario thought that about me and there was a bit of a pause and then he said uh thank you for telling me that it means a lot anyway it’s a bit of an a side but I thought it’s a nice story uh why was Fernando at Indie that year Well if you remember the 2017 McLaren Formula 1 car was pretty poor pretty dire actually and Fernando wasn’t enjoying it at all you know the beginning of that season he dnfed did not finish in Melbourne Shanghai and Bahrain three races on the spin dnfs uh then he didn’t even make it to the Grid in SOI uh he raced at home in Spain thank goodness otherwise there probably would have been uh hell to pay um and he managed to finish 12th nothing to write home about uh and lapped twice by the winner Lewis Hamilton obviously for MC in his MC so by that time we we McLaren nightes were trying to think of things to to amuse Fernando because you know racing that awful McLaren Honda certainly wasn’t amusing him um so we let him skip Monaco to do the Indie 500 in true Jim Clark sty and that’s scar yes and a scar style yes what Champions do what Champions do um funny enough there was an irony there because that terrible McLaren Honda the one place we thought it might have been okay because it was so bad at speed circuits was Monaco so so he we actually missed probably the best point scoring or best result scoring chance anyway uh it’s what we did and it became of course an enormous story which was also part of our strategy because our sponsors weren’t having a good time either and we wanted to give our sponsors something to get excited about after such a dismal start to the year in Formula 1 now another name here to conjure with we hired Jill feren a lovely lovely lovely man whom I think we all miss so very much um who died suddenly very recently and and a great guy anyway we hired Jill to coach Fernando on how to drive at Indie because Jill was very very good on or had been very very good on super Speedways and we hired him to coach Fernando on how to drive at Indi and and Jill did a fantastic job but to be fair you know Fernando took to it like a duck to water anyway and it was so good to see you could really tell that after 2 and 1/2 years in dog slow McLaren Hondas because it hadn’t just been 2017 but also 2016 and 2015 that his McLaren Hondas our McLaren Hondas had been so poor he was suddenly coming alive and he really thought he could win the Indie 500 he thought he could win the big race and the andreti team you began to realize as the days went past they thought so too um and he really could have won he really could um he qualified in the middle of the second row which means fifth very very good qualifying he led the race often uh and in the fourth quarter as they say in the fourth quarter obviously of the 200 laps so after lap 150 onwards he looked to be in really good shape uh he he was right up there uh with with the lead bunch then I remember it well and I’ll never forget it on lap 179 with 21 laps to go therefore he was running seventh in an extremely tightly bunched leading group we’re not talking about seventh in a Grand Prix seventh at the Indie 500 means you’re right in the in the leading Bunch with a chance of winning every chance every chance of being in the hunt for the win by the end then his Honda engine yet again a Honda engine gave up The Ghost and he coasted to a stop on the infield just before turn one turn one and uh I’d actually watched some of the race up on a roof high on the infield at turn one I don’t think I’ve ever watched a motor race from a more um spectacular Vantage Point seeing the cars absolutely you know streaming along the straet and diving in to turn one absolutely fantastic cauldron of noise wonderful speed Anyway by that time fourth quarter I’d walked back to uh the McLaren hospitality suite because I wanted to see the timing screens and data rather than just get the uh the atmosphere so I was sitting next to Lone Star Jr joh Johnny Rutherford and Fernando stopped I couldn’t speak we were all so gutted and I just turned a look at Johnny he just Shrugged he shook his head and he drawed dang dang dang you made that up I didn’t I didn’t I remember him exactly saying that do it again Dang Dang Dang now I believe you why would you ever forget that it was an incredible moment you know a legend you know I I love English English but American English is very special at times isn’t it absolutely fantastic anyway Fernando tried the ind5 by the way I will say an andreti car won the race tum masato won the race so it was funny feeling because the andreti team were absolutely over the moon because they just won the Indie 500 but we were absolutely gutted and and they were this funny thing of saying we’re happy but bad luck how did Fernando feel he was pleased obviously he was disappointed uh but he was pleased to have he knew he’d done a good job well he’d met the challenge hadn’t he he’d met the challenge and there had been some naysayers and doubters uh and and he completely met the challenge and everybody you know whether it was andreti or Rutherford or anyone else they said my God he’s done a good job yeah and it’s not just learning to drive on ovals all things about weight jacking and spotters and all that stuff which is completely different completely and it was all new to him Y and I’m not saying he would have won the race but you know he was in the leading group and he would have he could have won the race he could have been second third fourth fifth or sixth we he could have been anything like that but he did a fantastic job of course he was disappointed not to have had the result and he was frustrated with the engine failure with you know 21 laps to go but he knew he’d done a good job and he’d enjoyed himself and he wasn’t discouraged cuz he was back again a couple of years later yeah although not with very good results you you know he came back two years later in 2019 in um McLaren entered delara Chevy at that point this is because McLaren had fallen out with Honda so um Honda said no we’re not going to give you any engines you’ll have to go to Chevrolet which then happened um but he failed to qualify very embarrassing I was no longer working for the team by the way by that time I left in in 2017 um quite soon after the that that famous Indianapolis race anyway um and he went again in 2020 also in a McLaren enter delara Chevy um he did qualify this time but he started 26th and finished 21st and I think he remains cuz he hasn’t been back since I think he remains the last active Formula 1 driver to attempt the Indie 500 um Anyway Richard as you remembered earlier your trips to Indie which were earlier than mine in 1993 and 1994 also coincided with near misses um for a former on world champion of European origin if we could call him that Birmingham origin yeah and of course that’s why I was there because uh after winning the the F1 world championship in 1992 um Nigel got an offer to we’re talking about Nigel Manel just by the way yes Nigel Mansel got an offer to go uh to America and race Indie Cars in in 93 for uh the Newman HS team um whose uh figurehead was Paul Newman the the Hollywood star yeah uh and they had very good cars good lowers um ler Fords and it was a good team top team his teammate would be Mario Andre exactly um so it was going to be competitive anyway and you know to his great credit he he he took up the challenge great looking car by the way oh beautiful cars but that actually that generation of rear engined Indie Cars were they were all goodlooking much much better than now in terms of Aesthetics yeah um they were uh anyway so he went and he had a he had a very good season I mean he won races and he won the championship which for a rookie you know never raced oals before was totally brilliant now of course had he won at Indianapolis that would have dwarfed everything else would have been far greater than winning the series title um and he he got I mean it’s it’s a bit like winning Lamar is more important than winning the World Endurance Championship completely exactly the same exactly uh commercially and in every kind yeah in every kind of prestige um so anyway he he he got to Indie and he qualified in the middle of the third row eth which was pretty good um and uh he did well in the race he kind of moved up slow as you know the pit stops took place and all that and eventually um with not long to go uh with about 20 laps to go he was in the lead and looking good yeah um ahead of two former winners Emerson fitty and arry liony but on lap 182 out of 200 um Lin James I think she ran out of petrol anyway and the cars stalled stopped so the yellow flag came out um and it stayed out for a few laps while they got uh St james’ car out of the way the green flag came out again restart they’d all bunched up inevitably so um emo and liik were on Nigel’s tail and whoosh when the green flag came out they were both past him cuz he had no experience of restarts uh in oval racing which are a very different thing and these two guys had been doing it old hands exactly they’ve been doing for years so uh he was very disconcerted by that and he was suddenly in third place and um while he was chasing them he actually hit the wall uh at one point with uh both right side Wheels he really gave it a thump and you might have expected to do some damage but amazingly it didn’t and he managed to carry on and there was another yellow flag period um before the finish and but he couldn’t make anything of that so he came third which was actually pretty dang good um yes pretty D and good but not what he or I have to say Fleet Street was looking for um you know the half of Fleet Street had descended on Indianapolis that we including me I have to say um in in the hope of a win and mo1 did he not mo1 he did by the way oh what emo did afterwards you know one of the great Indie tradition I what you’re going to say the winners are given a bottle of milk which goes right back almost to the beginning when one of the winners said give me some buttermilk um and then after that everybody had to do it and then of course the whatever the American version of the milk marketing board is you know took it over and it thing but not emmo for the first time ever he uh was handed at his own request a bottle of orange juice wasn’t it his own brand it was he had a citrus Farm back in Brazil yeah and um and he was quite unashamed about it you know the interviewer said to him you know how come you’re not drinking milk and he said well I said well this is orange juice from my farm my brand uh and he was vilified for it wasn’t he by purists didn’t go down well no no by the way I’m I’m great great um admirer of Emerson fitty py and I’ve written a book with him and uh you know he’s a lovely lovely guy and a great driver he was only ever called emo when he got to the states wasn’t he we didn’t call him emo in Formula 1 times that’s true and I’m talking about him at Indianapolis un calling him emo yeah exactly but nobody you know you didn’t uh no he was Emerson he was Emerson you know Colin Chapman didn’t call him emmo um but you know when he got to the states he did I’m not knocking it anyway there you are so that was anyway it was good fun being uh at Indianapolis with with Mansel and um I went back again the next year cuz he went back too and he didn’t have a very good time um he qualified way down the field still with the um Newman H Team um and that time it was a Pensky alansa Jr who won and Nigel actually sorry the RAC that was the Merk engine car it was it was the Merk engine car and uh quite early in the second half of the race the third quarter um uh Nigel was rear ended during a yellow flag interlude rear ended by a guy called Dennis vlo yes who just smashed his car up the up the rear of poor Nigel who who was blameless and vella’s car shouldn’t laugh really but nobody was hurt um vella’s car ended up on top of uh Nigel’s um on the infield uh stationary and um Nigel started getting out and then a marshall arrived and pulled him out and Nigel Nigel was never one to underd dramatize such events could sort of collapsed into into the arms of the Marshall and they rolled around the grass um and Nigel eventually lay prone and they had to send a stretcher for him and very very very dramatic made up for a very undramatic race I guess he was fine I’m sure he was fine probably almost as painful as when his sock draw fell on his big toe do you remember that I don’t but you’re going to have to tell me he no his sock drawer fell on his big toe and uh and he um was walking around limping around the paddock saying you you couldn’t believe the pine you couldn’t believe it anyway so there you are that’s our Nigel but a great driver I must say one thing I remember from that second year 94 was uh fyy crashed into the wall while ahead of uh either ahead or just behind alansa Jr his teammate anyway threatening to take the race from Little Al and um I remember he crashed into the wall got out the car and the grand stands erupted with Glee cuz it meant an American who was going to win again there you are homegrown hero yep so Mansel won his I’ll just this is an interesting aside Mensel won his Formula 1 World title in an Adrien newie designed Williams um and it probably would be remiss of us not to mention Adrian newi at all in this podcast because of course he’s most famous for being well arguably the greatest Formula 1 car designer of all time or right up there um and he’s also in the news quite a bit just now obviously um but because we’re talking about notable European exploits in the Indie 500 cars designed by neie won at Indianapolis three years in a row uh and who knows whether he’ll have another go at the Indie 500 now that he’s decided to leave real Red Bull no I’m not predicting that by the way but you never know never say never yeah but he joined March car Constructor in 1981 and worked for them on F2 and Sports Car Projects U with great success and then in 84 he moved to March’s Indie Car program where he worked as a race engineer for Bobby rayhall who’ later head up the Jaguar F1 team which of course became Red Bull Racing small world and that was the first time that team tried to hire him because Bobby rall tried to hire him but Ron Dennis managed to Scupper it do you remember yes I do for you wanted him for Jaguar he did indeed yeah one of those moments in which things might have turned out very different for all concerned but anyway uh for the 1985 season Adrien designed the March 85c which ended up winning 10 of the 15 indie car races that year including its second ever race the Indie 500 and that that race was Dan Danny Sullivan’s famous Spin and win Victory uh one of the most famous of all Indian 500 wins when Dany did a full 360° spin while dicing with Mario andr uh and not only managed to keep it out of the wall by the way but also recovered and later passed Mario to win and and here’s another anara fact by the way Danny Sullivan’s Twitter or X handle is at spin towin 85 and uh Adrian’s next car the March 86c would be even more successful winning the 1986 and 87 indd 500s and he’s not really stopped winning since has he uh he’s I mean you know you said maybe he’s the most successful F1 car designer in history I would say no doubt you know I think you’d have to say that given his his successes with Williams and McLaren and Red Bull I mean that to go from Team to team and do that is an astonishing achievement and I’m sure he’s not done yet no probably not we also ought to mention before we go we must mention two other Brits um who did extremely well at Indie uh two drivers uh Dan Welden who won in 2005 and 2011 and then very sadly died not long after that second victory during an oval race elsewhere not at Indie and Dario frankii who won in 2007 in 2010 and 2012 uh and was a real kind of Master of Indianapolis he absolutely was yeah and that feels like a perfect time to say and colossally that’s history well a huge thank you for joining us for this episode which is episode 8 in our current run and if you’ve enjoyed it and haven’t listened to any of the others we hope you’ll check them out too absolutely we do hope that and thank you for all of your messages on Twitter uh it’s great to hear your feedback and we’re so glad that so many of you appear to be enjoying the show it really does mean an awful lot to us not only to Richard and me but to our producer Johnny and all the other people uh who make it possible uh but remember if you want to get in touch you can reach us on podcasts atth hyra.com or via social media I’m at the Bish F1 and Richard is at Williams 1947 we’ll be back to Ria praise motor racing next week but until then goodbye goodbye and [Music] history the athletic [Music]
