Takeaways From Bengals Minicamp

Jay Morrison and Dallas Robinson discuss the sights and sounds from the first few days of Bengals minicamp. How did Joe Burrow look? What did Ja’Marr Chase do? How real is the CB competition between DJ Turner and Dax Hill? Then, they analyze Jay’s list of the greatest Bengals teams of all time and where several Cincinnati alums fall on Dallas’ list of the NFL’s most underrated players.

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welcome back to the pfn Bengals podcast I am Dallas Robinson he is Jay Morrison Jay how’s it going today you were out at Bengals mini camp for day two of mini camp today Joe burrow was throwing but maybe not with quite his usual zip there’s a lot to get into yeah on today’s show but but we do want to start with mini camp takeaways Jay first of all how are you doing today and how how did today go how did Joe Burl looked just your overall kind of thoughts and sights and sounds from today’s day two of mini camp yeah I’m I’m doing great I’m having a good day uh Joe burrow not so much I mean he just performance-wise and he did he was throwing it better I I don’t know better is the right word but he had more velocity on the ball than he was really kind of just taking it easy and floating balls even in seven on seven um yesterday he had he had a little more zip on the ball today um the defense was getting him I mean there there was a lot of pass breakups and um he he even though he was throwing it better was still not what you’re used to seeing from him and and so I think the the the defense was was ready to pounce on that and we saw that on the first play of seven on seven um Germaine Pratt tried to go in for a pass break up against Charlie Jones just a short little pass over the middle and he didn’t quite get there in time so he ran through Charlie Jones took him to the ground there was a lot of oo and A’s um you just don’t see I mean that that would have been note notable in training Camp when they’re just not even hitting and for this to happen in mini camp it was it was something that um there was no hard feelings you know Charlie said hey it it happened I got up I went back to the Huddle it is what it is no like I said no hard feelings um just one of those things when guys are running around fast sometimes they they get in each other’s ways yeah in each other’s way but um other plays you know DJ Turner made a couple really nice pass breakups and um it it it just it was wasn’t the best day for Joe burrow but that’s it’s all part of the this process of recovering and no this he he had May the end of May in mind to start throwing competitively and we’re a couple weeks from that nobody should be expecting him to look like he’s ready to start the season and there’s there’s gonna be days when it’s sore and he’s just not able to let it go the way he normally does and this is all part of the process um I thought you know the way he talked on two Tuesday and just being so introspective and talking about his football mortality I thought that was a good sign that that he understands that it’s not just about him and fighting through he’s got an entire franchise counting on him an entire city uh fan base counting on him and and he needs to be smarter about the these things and he learned from the calf he tried to push through the calf and it almost derailed the entire season um so he’s he’s not going to do that with the wrist and I think that’s what we’re seeing here in mini camp with these these s softer throws yeah I think that’s a really good point joob talking about his football mortality I thought that was just a really interesting way for him to put it and just shows maybe a little bit of the maturation of the way he’s just thinking about this stuff like you said Jay that he is the team yes this team the roster is talented up and down there’s lots of good players lots of good positions but we’ve seen for the most part what this team looks like without Joe burrow or with Joe burrow at less than 100% right we we saw at the beginning of last season when Joe burrow was out there he was making passes he was trying to do the best he could but Joe burrow isn’t athletic enough I don’t think to overcome an injury even if it’s a minor injury even if it’s not a season ending injury he he is so cerebral I think and that’s what gives him an advantage over so many quarterbacks in this league but he’s not the type of physical athlete that can just go out there and create things for the most part like some other quarterbacks that we see around the league like Josh Allen and other guys that can do Off Script stuff which is why it’s so important for him to be healthy which is why it’s so important for the Bengals offensive line to be strong and keep him upright and his changing mentality I think is part of that to realize truly how critical he is to the system to realize that he basically is the system for this Bengals offense and that when he’s not out there or when he is hindered you’re right the ENT the entire team suffers the entire team struggles him realizing that I think is just part of his ever expanding leadership role his maturation whatever you want to call it at has the kind of personality the number one guy on this team and just realizing how critical he is to this offense moving forward yeah and he absolutely is critical but I I think part of this too is is learning that that it’s not just him that I think everybody thought last year if Joe bur didn’t play those early games they had no chance and then we see what Jake brownie can actually do and now it’s like okay if if if you’re not feeling it and you’re you know maybe it’s it’s not the worst thing to to miss a a game if if he’s not 100% healthy I mean not that he would sit out because he’s sore but you just don’t have that weight on your shoulders where oh we have no chance unless I play I have to fight through every little injury and nothing was little last year was a serious calf injury and obviously a serious wrist injury but I I think that helps having them seen what this offense can be with Jake Browning and and not feeling like it’s it’s all on Joe burrow and it’s it’s just going to fall apart if he’s not there it’s not going to be it is is not they’re not going to have near as good a chance of going to the playoffs or winning games but it’s not disaster time if they don’t have him we also learned that Joe burrow is learning to play piano so that’s an interesting note I think that we found out that maybe that’s probably not something he would be doing if if he had some terrible wrist injury wrist pain every day he’s probably not gonna be trying to learn a skill like piano so I thought that was kind of interesting he he did say he’ll be ready to go by the season I mean he kind of put that to bed that there’s not any concern that he’ll be ready to go by the time the season kicks off in September that’s that’s the most important thing at this point like it’s it’s hard to say anything else beyond that we’ll see how things go in training camp we’ll see what his throwing schedule looks like in training camp we’ll see how he’s talking about his wrist once it comes to training camp I think that’ll give us a very good sense of where he’s at physically and how he’s handling the injury mentally so I think at this point in the year it’s just it’s like everything else like what what’s real you know what what certain guys lining up at certain spots or learning up with lining up with certain first teams we don’t really know what’s real this point and I think Burrow’s injury I think it’s safe to probably put it in that bucket as well yeah and he talked too about you know he he his offseason started 10 weeks before everybody else’s because he was doing the such a serious rehab from the the wrist injury and he he plans to take it easy over the six week break once mini camp is done after Thursday that you know a lot of the guys I’ve been talking to I’m asking if they’re doing anything fun and they they’re like no it’s go time this is It’s yes we’re not going to be here but it’s not a time to just kick back and take vacations and relax they’re they are going to focus on training and getting themselves right and Reporting in the best possible condition in July and I I think Joe is going to take some time off and and you know listen to his body listen to his wrist and and get that break that the other guys got when the season ended before they came back in April he was going at it pretty hard trying to get that rist back in order elsewhere on offense we saw Jamar Chase is back out there but not really doing too much he did a few snaps in a walk through wrot about Jay but not really participating as much not in a full-time capacity with in these practice sessions don’t think it’s too surprising I mean I I don’t really think anything is surprising with with what Jamar Chase is doing right now you know it’s whether or not we expect the contract to come through before the season starts or wait until next off season you know I just I’m not sure how much this really matters he he’s present he’s not getting fined not really talking Jay as you wrote about a little bit maybe we’ll maybe that’ll change in the days going forward but it’s kind of what we expect expected for Jamar Chase I think yeah and I don’t think this this could be as much about the Bengals saying just chill you know you haven’t been here this entire time we trust you that you’ve been doing the right things but still it’s it’s different it’s the the the football shape and the and just regular shape are different and the last thing you want is that guy suffering a a soft tissue injury in a meaningless mini camp and so he’s out there for the the walkthrough part which is basically install new plays that and they just walk through them at half speed sometimes they don’t even quarterback doesn’t even throw the ball on the route they just kind of walk through everything and um he he took part in that and I just I don’t I don’t think this is related and I don’t want to put words in his mouth I don’t think it’s related to the contract he he said he was willing to wait out Justin Jefferson but you never got the sense that soon as Justin signs it’s go time I want mine the next day I think he he should be content to to play this season out um he’s going to make 21.8 million guaranteed next year regardless that’s fully guaranteed they’ve already picked up the fifth year option that money is sitting there so why not go out and try to have another great Jamar Chase type of year and it just drives your value up even more there’s that debate right now is he worth jumping over Justin Jefferson well he’s gonna have a 17 games to prove it um and and for the Bengals too it just makes sense to wait and and let this play out so I don’t think his absence from mini camp has anything to do with with the contract situation and maybe we’ll hear it from him directly uh on Thursday when when when it wraps up but I I don’t know I just he he said he said he wouldn’t talk today he said try again tomorrow that doesn’t mean I’m saying I’m gonna talk tomorrow but try again tomorrow and he was and the one thing too Ben baby from ESPN did ask him he’s like are you healthy he asked him this on Tuesday the first day and Jamar kind of was taken back he’s like what do you mean don’t I look healthy and like well we didn’t see you do anything but it’s just is this is this not participating related to health at all and he said no he’s good he I know he was rehabing a couple uh injuries in the offseason and he said he’s good and he looks he looks more jacked like upper body arms more physical so um interested to hear from him but I don’t know if we will it might be training camp before we we get some Jamar nuggets it’s it’s a huge season for Jamar like even it’s it’s we talked about it last week that the bar has been set and now it’s can he can he clear the bar it’s an absolutely massive season for Jamar and I think massive for the Bengals to kind of expand his role too if you can if you can look forward and think T Higgins is not going to be here in 2025 how do how do the Bengals continue to manufacture Touches for Jamar Chase continue to get him in advantageous matchups move around move him around the field I I’m just really curious to see how how Jamar Chase is used this year and the production obviously that he ends up with um one more point on offense Trent Brown is back in the building he was in the building for off for phase one of the Bengals offseason program but now he is participating in mini camp after not being there for OTAs talked about some family emergencies that he had some stuff that was going on kind of behind the scenes we’ll see like whether this means anything or not you know down the road whether am Marius Mims was able to use that that time that he had when Trent Brown was not in attendance to overtake him for that right tackle role we saw some jumbo packages with both of those guys being used together yesterday 700 lounds of beef I mean I would love to see that in a in a goal line situation or something in the regular season if we could see that I’d be a total support of something like that uh but just to see Trent Brown I think back was interesting and he had some some praise for Marius Mims too said he doesn’t really you know he’s GNA be an all-time starting tackle in this league that sure there are little things to work on like any first round pick but he’s liked what he’ve seen out of am Marius Mims too so I think the fact that Trent Brown is back and kind of getting the work and is good and and kind of gives us a little bit of yeah it the fact that he was gone was probably not that big of a deal no it wasn’t that big of a deal but I do think it gave amarius a leg up and I am curious to see what happens if if amarius wins that job and then does does Trent become Sullen is he is he not all in as a backup I just um you know he’s he’s he’s had some of that reputation in the past so we’ll see I mean he he he indicated that the Bengals told him he would be the starter when they signed him in March that was that was a month before they drafted am Marius ma’ so yeah maybe they did tell them that was their plan but things change when you draft a guy in the first round at at that same position so it’s going to be it’s gonna be fun to watch in training camp it’s going to be one of the more interesting position battles because I I don’t I I think it’s it might be Trent Browns to lose but I I think amarius Mims if if he just keeps ascending and doing those little things that Trent Brown talked about I mean he’s a heck of a specimen Trent big man he’s 380 and he looks every bit of it and uh so we’ll see we’ll see if he comes back in a little bit better shape for for actual for training camp um but it’s it’s G to be fun to watch I just keep coming back to his contract I mean one year 4.75 million only two million guaranteed I mean Trent Brown might be a little bit Sullen if he doesn’t win the starting tackle job but I mean it’s like that that contract right there should have told him back in March that this is not guaranteed that the league doesn’t necessarily view him as like hey you’re a l in right tackle starter that that’s backup money you know by today’s prices so I think you know it’s definitely possible that that he is the swing tackle come week one which is again not the worst thing in the world to have Trent Brown as your swing tackle that’s the best swing tackle in the NFL if that’s the case I think that’s not all bad if that happens last thing we want to talk about from a kind of position battle perspective and you know outside of the Joe burough stuff maybe the most kind of notable news to come out of these mini camps is that Dax Hill is taking first team reps at corner ahead of DJ Turner playing opposite cam Taylor Brett like we’ve said for all this stuff like a note of caution how much does it matter we don’t know DJ Turner was taking first team reps earlier this season during the offseason program it could be flit back by training camp we don’t know maybe Josh Newton will be out there starting maybe the Bengals will have signed a free agent corner by then we don’t really know but I it is interesting though I think that Dax Hill has been given this chance that that he broke up some passes that you know as much as you can say someone looked good in environment like this he looked good got some praise from other players like cam Taylor Britt and said that you know working closer to the ball and maybe working a little downhill is what’s going to be good for Dax it’s interesting that’s as well that’s as far as I’m willing to go I think with this is that it’s interesting that Dax Hill got these first team reps so are you in the same kind of boat or or do do you think this is maybe more important yeah well it’s interesting I I I wonder we haven’t had a chance to talk to Lou yet um coordinator Lou anarumo I I I wonder if it could even be a little little bit of a reward where you it has been DJ Turn to run with the ons and if they’re happy with the work that Dax has put in and and everything he shown them running with the twos through everything until mini camp and I thought maybe today we might see him flip you know it might have been Dax with the ones yesterday and then DJ back with the ones today that wasn’t the case again we’re talking about I I think burough through 10 passes so that the one offense and the one defense were out there for 10 plays it’s it’s not a big sample size but um I do I I and you mentioned Josh Newton I I mean I’ve been impressed with that guy and he’s not gonna make this uh it’s not just I mean yes it’s a two- horse race right now but I wouldn’t count that guy out I mean he he’s looked really impressive and um you know we we’ll see what happens in training camp I bet he gets a chance to run with some ones just to see what he can do and you know we’ve seen this I mean DJ as a rookie was like oh my gosh he’s he’s making all kinds of plays and he he ear and even DJ Ivy the seventh round pick last year was like whoa I mean the seventh rounders out there making plays when he’s given a chance and so that’s it’s one thing that it yes it’s disappointing dax’s career tread trajectory so far but they’ve done a really good job at at picking defensive backs um Jordan battle you know cam Taylor Britt um all these guys that they’ve been bringing in that have have really played well and that’s what you got to have you’re going to pay these guys on offense these incredible salaries you’ve got to be able to hit on those early round draft picks and so it’s it’s going to be really interesting to see and and I don’t think it’s if Dax doesn’t beat out DJ Turner it necessarily means he’s gonna be riding the bench I think Lou is gonna find a way to to use him in different spots and and in different schemes and alignments and um I it’s that’s another thing that’s not necessarily it’s not the position battle I’m more most interested in is is how they deploys Dax and in the different areas and and what the scheme looks like uh once they get into training camp we get to see some some more something closer to real football we’ve seen Lou do that in the past at corner sometimes by necessity you know when Cheeto is coming back from injury like we’ve seen him have to kind of use those Corners in rotation so it’s not something that’s like out of the realm of possibility that the Bengals are not willing to do it has been done and if you’re right if they get through the preseason and daxo and DJ Turner both look good then that’s a good problem to have and you don’t you don’t necessarily have to choose right it’s the NFL has unlimited substitutions you’re allowed to to use these guys as much in any situation as you want so it’s the idea that this is this is one or the other between DJ Turner and Dax Hill I think it’s a good point to say it doesn’t have to be it could be both it just what does that look like if that is what the endgame is I think that’s a really good point um anything else from mini camp J before we kind of talk about about some of our some our lists and Evergreen stuff that we’re that we’re doing this summer anything else that stood out from from mini camp and uh before you finish off tomorrow assuming there is another day tomorrow we don’t know Zach Taylor might you know cancel this you know there might be a day off for some veterans we don’t know but uh anything else before we kind of close the book on mini camp for this week yeah we saw them uh yesterday on Tuesday we saw them really working the new kickoff alignment um for the first time and it was it wasn’t so much who was out there that I took notice of was they some of the kicks that Evan mcferson was was trying at one point I looked out there I was like why does he have the ball teed up like that and it was like the tea was on its side and the ball was mostly on the ground but it was it was resting nose up on the tea and Evan runs up and kicks it and it’s it’s like a whirly board helicopter kick and it’s like oh my God that would and put it right where it needed to be right at right inside the landing Zone at the edge right by the the um out of bounds line and it’s it’s like that’s gonna even for experienced return men that’s going to be a hard ball to catch and absolutely if it spins and it and it hits in the landing Zone without it being caught I mean that’s gold they the the the guys that you have lined up can’t move until the ball’s caught if it hits the ground in the landing Zone they can take off so they can be five 10 yards closer to to The Return Man before he even picks up the ball if it’s spinning around and those guys are chasing it down trying to pick it up so it’s that’s it’s going to be fun to watch I I preseason football is unwatchable I mean I know I have to do it for my job but oh I disagree I disagree with you there but okay it’s unwatchable for me and it’s gonna be watchable this year just because of the new kickoff rule because I think it’s gonna be fascinating to see all the different iterations that these special teams coordinators come up with it’s going to be it’s going to be a wild experiment all through the preseason and probably the first half of the regular season and I think the Bengals have a major advantage there Darren Simmons is one of the longest 10e special team coaches in this league he was diving into data and analytics of special teams long before analytics became popular in the league so he’s been on committees on steering committees that that look at rule changes and um I I think that Bengals are GNA have a big Advantage with that guy at the helm of this new rule I can’t wait to see it I I can’t wait until we start to see stuff in training camp I think maybe during joint practices we can start to see some of the stuff come out too and then preseason like you said definitely we’ll start to see some of the creativity like I’m so excited like I it’s just the kickoff game has become so boring it’s like anytime anybody scores it’s oh time to go get another beer time to go to the bathroom it’s gonna be a Touchback I’m so excited to see how this works and you’ve already got coaches like you know Kans Dave tube in Kansas City talking about using Justin Reed as a kicker and because I think he estimated kickers are used on or involved in like 25 to 40% of tackles in the XFL who of course that’s where the NFL is borrowing these kickoff rules from I mean it’s fascinating it’s it’s how do you weigh that of having an extra tackler out there versus what you’re talking about with EV ferson the ability to do all these different sort of kicks and and be delicate and have placement with the ball Justin Reed isn’t doing that right he’s a safety he could boot the ball down there and make a tackle he’s not doing any sort of creative little kicks or anything you’re talking about like what the Bengals are practicing so I think how teams and how different coordinators choose to balance that I think it’s going to be really interesting and Darren Simmons is as good as anybody in the NFL from special teams so to see what he comes up with the kind of innovations that he kind of develops I’m very interested in addition to who is actually out there who is actually going to be handling the ball for the Bengals when when that first kickoff comes so I’m right there with you I think it’s gonna be fascinating um all right let’s let’s talk about some of these lists that we’ve been doing Jay you your most recent lists best Bengals teams of all time top 10 Bengals teams of all time this one came out couple days ago um I you’ve got at number one you’ve got the 1988 Super Bowl team no no issues there at all I actually have no issues with your list at all like I really wanted to get on here and rip you or roast you for for this list and I I’m sure it makes better conversation if I’m doing that but I really have no issues here Jay like you did a great job you did a great job with all these picks I I think it’s interesting that you you picked the 22 Bengals team at third over the 2021 team that went to the Super Bowl but again can totally understand why you did it by by almost every metric the 2022 team was better even though they didn’t go quite as far in the playoffs and didn’t come just a few plays away from winning the Lombardi it was a better football team overall I I don’t really know what to say about this list other than good job it’s how I would rank the teams as well it’s exactly how i’ put how I would put these teams uh anything notable that you kind of uncovered as you were going through this list Jay uh no I will say that uh some of the the other beat writers in my age demographic uh took a little exception they they thought the 75 team should have been a little higher than okay than number six I mean they still 11 and three best winning percentage I mean they only played 14 games back there so that’s the best winning percentage in franchise history two of the three losses were against arguably the the best one of the best football teams ever to be constructed the Steelers were on their way to win in a second consecutive Super Bowl um so two of their three losses were against the Steelers the the team the Steelers beat in the AFC Championship Game the Oakland Raiders the Bengals beat in the regular season but the way it was set up then three divisions three division winners one Wild Card Bengals were the wild card that meant they had to go to Oakland for that playoff game and they lost 31 to 28 I mean that was a really good team it was Paul Brown’s final team um it was just you know where they ranked was right there where you know I I didn’t it’s hard to compare eras but I always like to look at well where did they rank in that time were did they have the the best pass offense did they have the best run defense and I looked at the rankings and it was right up there they they they they really did measure up but I just the big issue was them in 2015 because both those teams lost in the first round and I I I the the top four the three Super Bowl teams and then the 22 team that came a a bad penalty away from having a chance to to go back-to-back Super Bowls I felt like they had to be the top four so it came down to 75 in in 2015 and I you know I watched in 75 as a as a young fan as a nine-year-old I I covered 2015 I just I felt like that was a really good team and had Andy Dalton not broke his thumb you know that team could have been in that top four I really think they could have made a long run in in the post season um but it did it didn’t happen I mean the broken thumb is part of the season and um you got to you have to weigh it all um but yeah that’s those were the two every every time I do one of these lists there’s one spot where it’s like you just go back and forth and you beat yourself as you know Carson Palmer vers Andy Dalton where do you go there um so it you know Zach versus Marvin Marvin’s got the longevity Zack’s got the playoff success so there’s always that one debate and I probably spend way too much time thinking about it but I think most the people that that follow the team now that are that are younger would agree with me that 2015 team was better but but the olds up in the 50s like me a lot of them wanted to see 75 in the top five it’s yeah it’s I would put 2015 ahead and it’s it’s hard to say I I would was not there for the 1975 team I I don’t I did definitely did not watch them for me it’s if Andy Dalton would have been healthy in that 2015 playoff run I I really do think that they could have made some noise there and you could say that you could say the same thing of course about the 2005 team that you had ranked seven that what could have happened if Carson Palmer didn’t go down in the playoff game against the Steelers and it’s you know these wha if scenarios it goes back to how how do you weigh them you know do you do you are you even including that when you rank a team as better or worse and I don’t know that 2015 theme I I think from top to bottom despite the fact that they went out in the first round again of the Dalton Marvin Lewis that that was the best team it was the best roster from top to bottom I I think on both sides of the ball that was defin definitely Dalton’s best season I mean could have been an MVP candidate there’s just so much that was going going for that team until you know the Fateful Andy Dalton injury it’s it’s it for me it would be hard to put them below that 75 team but but I guess I can understand the argument from the olds if I if I have to um a couple lists that that I’ve been doing j i I had some Bengals related content too I recently did a list of the 15 most underrated players in the NFL and I just want to kind of call out the couple Bengals I had on there number 15 I start out with Lorenzo Neil and this is a very subjective list like probably as a subjective list as you could do like I moved to Cincinnati at 2001 this this was kind of my entry into the Bengals World loved those teams love Lorenzo Neil this dude blocked for one 11 consecutive 10,000 yard running backs like absolutely AB I had Justin Smith on that list as well and then number three I had Ken Anderson who I know you’ve written about a bunch recently on the list of best best quarterbacks I had him as the number three most underrated player in NFL history he’s just you know the 1981 season is his best season when he won the MVP award you look at something like pro football references Hall of Fame monitor which goes looks at a lot of you know statistical accomplishments Awards post season success and tries to put a number on a guy’s career and says should this guy be in the hall of fame or not Ken Anderson’s up there he’s above Kenny Stabler he’s above Sunny jurgenson he’s above Bob greas he’s above Warren Moon but he’s never really gotten that chance and I think you know not having that Super Bowl is always going to hinder him um but but just you know I’ve been doing these lists and kind of looking back at NFL history it’s been an education for me and Ken Anderson is just even as someone who’s you know been a Bengals fan and Bengals Observer just truly looking back at how good he was it’s really been eye openening for me as someone who didn’t get to watch him play yeah I mean just Elite in ter in terms of how many times he led the league in completion percentage and pass her rating and and just so many other yards per attempt it it was he was Elite and it’s a shame that that that losing that one Super Bowls is really the difference and you know they 82 they they lost a bad playoff game and he just didn’t have the postseason success it wasn’t just the Super Bowl it was you know not a lot of playoff win to speak of overall I and he’s always going to be underrated until he’s in the Super Bowl he’s going to be underrated and then you know once he once he soon as he gets in the Hall of Fame I think he can take that underrated label off but I hope it happens I hope he’s a he’s a a wonderful guy and uh and personality aside he’s just deserving based on the numbers um Lorenzo Neil I just so you mentioned it in 2021 or in 2022 with the Bengals he went to the Pro Bowl 2002 yeah yeah sorry 2002 he went to the Pro Bowl and that tells you what his peers thought of him as a blocker because that season that Pro Bowl season he had nine carries for 31 yards that’s all he was was just plowing the way for Corey Dylan um and if you go and look on YouTube there’s there’s some like tribute highlight videos of Lorenz o’ Neil and he is just drip pancaking guys and then not standing there and gloating going on and hitting somebody else after he buries one guy it’s just he was a really fun guy to watch it a shame he only played two seasons in Cincinnati um fans may not be that familiar with him I mean arguably the greatest fullback in the history of the game he just he was something else um Justin Smith you you pointed out in the article what eight and a half sacks was he never had more than eight and a half sacks yeah he actually had that his rookie year in Cincinnati um there there’s only um 11 guys in Bengals history that have had six sacks and either their first or second year there’s only two guys in Bengals history that had at least six sacks in both of those first two years as Justin Smith and Sam hubard and he I think a lot of people look at Justin Smith as you know kind of the the guy that got away that that the Bengals drafted him in the first round couldn’t resign him he goes on and has a really good career with San Francisco and even so even with that great career he had you’re right I I think he’s he’s still maybe it’s the name Justin Smith is just kind of a an anonymous type of name but I I I think he his career is largely overlooked as well yeah so when he went to the ners I mean he was playing a lot of three four defensive end where he wasn’t getting it you know the sack production that put him up there and I do think when he went to San Francisco though that probably did help his kind of name profile because he was playing on those really good teams with the Jim Harbaugh teams kind of at the end of his tail run he didn’t get his first pro bowl till he was 30 he didn’t get his first all proo till he was 32 I mean I I don’t know if that’s the latest in history but it’s got to be up there to never get recognition until the end of your career like that I just thought was really fascinating did did you do a I’m let me did you do a honorable mention on that l no you didn’t no I did not did you did you consider Willie Anderson at all for that uh you know I think he was on my long list um I don’t want to put too many Bengals on here board but he’s definitely on the list I guess maybe I just I’ve got faith that he will get into the Hall of Fame at some point but you know I I did put other guys on here that I like Jared Allen you know I think will get into the Hall of Fame eventually so yeah I I think he he could have been in consideration and if I did an honorable mention I think he’d be on r on that back end yeah um also I K kenerson on a list I did of the of the best quarterbacks without a Super Bowl I had him number six on that list same kind of thing you know why he’s underrated just doesn’t have that kind of hardware and the last one I’ll just toss out here I did did a list of the best coaching trees in history had Paul Bryant number five um I had a couple guys ahead of him but Paul Brown’s coaching tree is just outstanding obviously it’s led by Bill Walsh you know everyone knows that the Bill Walsh coach in Cincinnati under Paul Bron and got a start there but gotta say I was not familiar with the name weeb Eubank Jay I don’t know if that’s a name that you’re familiar with or not but I have I have a good wee you big story let’s let let’s hear he it for those who don’t know which I certainly did not he worked under Paul Brown and went on to Colts the Baltimore Colts to multiple NFL championships he took the the Jets to Super Bowl three the the Super Bowl that Joe namoth guaranteed um this was my first introduction to to weeb but uh Jay it sounds like you know a little bit more about him than I do yeah so um in 1990 he he he coached at Miami University which is cradle of coaches so Woody Hayes coach there Paul Brown I mean there’s a lot of legendary coaches Sean it just goes on on on Harbaugh um so in 1994 it was a 25 year anniversary of Super Bowl 3 when Joe namoth predicted the Super Bowl win and we was still living in Oxford and so I called him up and asked if I could do a story and he invited me out to his house and I should say house because it was a museum he had every every game film every practice film every Playbook his basement was I I I was almost reluctant to mention it in the article cuz he was he was getting up there and his his wife was really um struggling with health at that time and I’m like here’s these like two older people and they’ve got this just wealth of NFL memorabilia in their house do I publicize that but he he could not have been nicer and it was just I mean I could have stayed there all day and talked to him and and just to he he took me around the basement and showed me all the stuff that he had said save throughout his career and it was you know I was just in awe it was one of my the most favorite stories I’ve ever done and um still you know it was sad when he passed I met him one time in my life and it was I was sad when I when I heard that he was gone and so yeah very very familiar with weeb I was not familiar with number one on your list I I consider myself a bit of a a football historian and I had never heard of Jim Lee how I I had not either you know I I will be honest I uh I I threw these out to to one of our editors Dan tomorrow and in his initial comment to show you how how tapped in he is NFL history whereas where’s Jim lehal he’s got to be number one yeah for those who don’t know Jim leall he had he had Vince Lombardy and Tom Landry on on his staff with the New York Giants in in the 50s I mean it really you really can’t get better than that to have two of the all-time greatest head coaches as your offensive coordinator and as your defensive coordinator I mean it’s just it’s unbelievable that that even happened in NFL history and does I mean Bill Paul Brown gets obviously credit for having Bill Walsh on his staff but does he does he get dinged for not hiring him and letting him go and that I mean yeah what what the a very good point the 80s could have been if if the Bengals had just hired Bill Walsh instead of letting him go to San Francisco and turning them into the team of the 80s seriously I mean someone I’ve got Mike Shanahan on my list at number seven you look at the guys that were on his staff with with those commanders teams his son Kyle obviously but Shawn McVey and Mike McDaniel and Matt laflor it’s like Washington hire one of these guys you could have been okay for the past 10 years instead of this debacle that you’ve gone through it it really is amazing to to look back and some of these teams and see you know you’ve got these legendary guys in your building and you just you just didn’t see it and that’s just how it works out it’s it really is fascinating to see how many times that’s happened throughout history mcvey’s got to be knocking on the door of that list too yeah yeah absolutely he he is he is up there I mean obviously we know with Zach Taylor and Kevin oconnell and I mean his list just goes on and on and even this year with Raheem Morris on the defensive side of the ball right um guys like Brandon Staley who have already been hired and fired have come from the McVey coaching staff it’s Shane Wal now is with the OC in Chicago he’s on his way he’s gonna be a head coach before long yeah and did Cliff come from Sean you know I I don’t think they ever worked together I think the thing with with Cliff was that when the when the Cardinals hired him I believe in their press release they they mentioned that he was a friend of you know the fact that we even know sha mcy is enough to to put that on your resume so it’s yeah it’s it’s it’s pretty interesting pretty pretty the beneficial to be attached to Sean MC NFL coach I think um last thing Jay here we got the Tom Brady Patriots Hall of Fame induction ceremony going on Wednesday night we know a lot of you are probably listening to this on Thursday so this already happened but you know not that anybody else needs to talk anymore about Tom Brady everyone knows Tom Brady is but we do Jay you’ve got some stat interesting stats here on Tom Brady and just maybe give a little bit of our thoughts on on Tom Brady and what he’s done to the Bengals over the years yeah I was just I was curious you know what how many Bengals can say I’ve sacked Tom Brady um and the number is 11 you vontz berick two in one game he’s he’s the career leader with two Wallace gilberry had one and a half in that same game that was the 2013 game when the Bengals snapped Brady’s NFL record streak of consecutive games with at least won touchdown pass um Michael Johnson’s on the list uh Gino Atkins also had one in that 13 game I mean they they really got to Brady in that game um Carlos Dunlap Pat Sims Dwayne Clemens and then more recently Logan Wilson Sam hubard and then uh back a little bit further um Robert gathers and then again in that 2013 game Chris Crocker the safety came on a blitz and shared a sack with with Wallace gilbery so you guys can say hey i’ I he’s soon to be a Pro Football Hall of Famer but right now A New England Patriots Hall of Famer uh that’s a nice feather in the cap and then in terms of picking him off uh Germaine Pratt and Trey flowers both got him in that 2022 game in uh in Tampa Bay and then Adam Jones had the game ceiling interception in that 2013 game and uh Tory James back in ‘ 06 and Leon Hall back in ‘ 07 so Five Guys Five Bengals have picked off Tom Brady and if I think about Brady moments with the Bengals it is that game I remember Mike Zimmer saying at one point that that Brady kind of looked over at him and gave him a nod like yeah you’re yeah you’ve got it going and this is yeah respect basically is what it was and the other thing was as great as the Bengals defense played in that game the Patriots defense held the Bengals down too and the Bengals had the lead it’s late in the game and they have to punt it back to Tom Brady and the pat and it’s like oh you know what’s going to happen it’s like Joe Montana in the Super Bowl all over again he’s going to get the ball as soon as they line up in punt formation the sky open and I’ve never seen it rain harder at a game I’ve been at in person it was just torrential and Kevin Huber unleashes like a 70 yard punt in this Monsoon and then Brady still drove down in the rain and I don’t remember what yard line they were on they were getting close um but it was it was inside the 10 when Adam Jones picked off the the pass and ended the game and it was just it was crazy it was it it was like it was meant to be with the Skies opening up and and just war and it was week five so it wasn’t like super cold and I think the fans were just very rarely are fans happy to be sitting or standing in the rain I think that day they were because they knew it was working to their advantage yeah I I think my biggest Brady Bengals memory is the were on to Cincinnati moment in in 2014 that after the Brady and the in the Chiefs or Brady in the belich just got destroyed by the Kansas City Chiefs in an early Monday Night Football game that season and I remember there was even talk that belich was to ask like is Tom Brady still your starting quarterback I believe you right and it’s you know he just couldn’t even handle it and were on to Cincinnati became that famous phrase and unfortunately for the Bengals they were on to Cincinnati it was a 43- 17 win the next week Patriots only lost two more games that entire season and then won the Super Bowl in that Malcolm Butler interception so it’s you know not the best moment for the Bengals they kind of spurred the the Patriots onto onto another one of their many titles but that’s kind of the moment I always remember with the Bengals is they were just kind of The Whipping Boy for for Tom Brady to maybe get back on track and kind of for bellich to get some of that noise and that distraction maybe out of the system a little bit so that week what I remember is you know back in in I mean it only what a decade ago but back then we would get a player and a coach on a conference call on Wednesday and it that conference call with Bill was about what you’d expect it’s like most conference calls you see when he’s standing in front of just was I mean asking about the on to Cincinnati thing he’s just mumbling answers and then Jeff Hopson from bengals.com asked him a couple questions about Paul Brown and he just he lit up and he couldn’t stop talking about Paul Brown and it was just a really interesting press conference to had nothing to do with the game but it was just him going on about his reverence for Paul Brown and um it was It was kind of cool to hear that side of bill bich because all you all you were used to was seeing was the the press conferences where he’s just Surly and and dismissive and um so that that’s what I remember most about that week I feel like if you asked Bill bich about NFL history LaCrosse or special te like special teams he will open up anything else it’s that the lit is going on it’s no comment it’s but those three topics I feel like he will expand if you get him in the right moment yeah that makes a lot of sense all right J I think that’s our show kind of a grab bag episode today you know not not a ton of newsy stuff going on we’ll be back next week um maybe talk about training camp pre preview or something we’ll get into for next week Jay um but anything else before we sign off on this this episode of the pfn Bengals podcast um no I would say you know next week we’re we’re gonna kind of wrap up the offseason but we we want you guys to be involved so um if you have questions uh tweet them at Dallas tweet them at me uh email me that send in your questions and and we’re do we’ll do our best to to answer them on the show um and you know we can’t have you pop in live but be do as much as we can to make it interactive and and get your questions in and and uh mention your Twitter handle as long as it’s not profane yeah exactly I mean I I still have a lot of questions about this Bengals team and what we should expect in training camp so I’m interested to hear what all of you guys do too and what what you’re thinking and what you want you know when Jay’s out there on site what what he’s looking for and what we’re talking about on the show we want everyone to be involved so please do send those questions anything you’ve got uh Bengals related or otherwise really we we’ll answer anything we don’t care we’ll we’ll take any questions you’ve got um other than that we’ll be back next week so thank you again for listening to this week’s show and we will talk to you next week [Music] oh [Music]