Brandel Chamblee on ‘What the hell is happening to the game of golf’ | The Scott Verplank Show

In this episode, Scott Verplank talks with his former North Texas junior golf rival Brandel Chamblee, now one of professional golf’s most recognizable broadcasters.

Chamblee, a Golf Channel analyst, shares his views on among other topics, the impact of LIV golf, the Public Investment Fund and its association with Saudi Arabia.

Episode highlights:
17:18: Chamblee: “We’re risking alienating the lifelong fan of the game.”
19:17: Chamblee: “It’s more about a blind greediness with no respect for what came before them and no obvious sense of debt to future generations.”
21:00: Chamblee on whether the Public Investment Fund and its association with Saudi Arabia or the PGA Tour are more responsible for golf’s divisions.
23:00 Where Chamblee’s dissent with the Public Investment Fund stems from.
24:59: The “Faustian pact” LIV golfers have made

Producer: Jacquelyn Musgrove
Creative Director: Michael Lane
Social media: Bobby Howard
Director of Content: Mike Sherman

Welcome to the Scott bur plank show as part of the sellout crowd Network the Scott burlink show is sponsored by emac group emac is an environmental microbial and air quality solutions group if you suspect you have mold or air quality issues emac provides the solutions find

Out more at emac Doom today I’m joined by brandle shamble lead commentator for the Golf Channel all right welcome uh to another edition of the Scott verplank show and I am thrilled to have uh one of the most recognizable faces and voices in golf uh he’s lead analyst commentator

For the Golf Channel and um seemingly an expert on all things golf um so brandle shambley uh thank you so much for coming on um be great to have a little chat with you you know we kind of grew up playing junior golf against each other

And what were you at uh Irving MacArthur I believe for high I was at Irving Irving MacArthur a couple years ahead of you uh you were at WT white if I remember correctly that is correct but yeah in the general Dallas area um and then listen there were a ton of great

Junior golfers around um all the guys that kind of grew up in our you know age bracket kind of Mark Brooks Andrew McGee uh yourself uh Brian Watts was a couple years behind me um junior golf in in north Texas was something back in the it still is but

Back in our day it was pretty darn good it was unbelievable I remember I didn’t start playing till I was 13 and I I remember everybody was shooting in the 60s that I was playing against um a name a name that you probably remember but didn’t make it on

Tour but was a fellow by the name of Billy Beverly so Billy was about the first person I ever played golf with because I was riding horses at the time I invited Billy out to ride horses he said well you guys should come play golf with me

So I went out and play golf with him he shot 69 or 68 I shot 169 or 168 and uh and you know so I I came home I told my dad how much I enjoyed the game and how much I wanted to play golf like well we

We got to sell the horses in because you can’t do both so we sold the horses I started playing golf and immediately I started playing with Billy and a bunch of other people in municipal golf courses around Dallas but what I found out was yeah just as you said every

Single 13 14 year 15 year old kid that I played with seemingly which shooting in the 60s I was like good gracious well what I didn’t know was you know I caught an era of there were what I think I counted one time like 10 Junior kids

From that area made it to the PGA Tour because there’s others like Danny Briggs that maybe you didn’t mention who made it to the PGA Tour there’s loads of Andy Dillard was around there Willie Wood was around there uh it was an impressive and really fun group of of kids to grow up

With oh it was okay brandle this is a typical pod give me one second I gotta let my dog out of the room I love it all right we’re back all right this makes it real this is this is NOS absolutely um yeah you’re right those days those days were something hang

On yeah those days were something for junior golf in north Texas and and uh yeah I was kind of thinking about that today when I was kind of going over stuff I wanted to talk to you about um I was like yeah we’re playing golf at like

Great Southwest and and I love Great Southwest yeah that in that where is that where you played a lot I played a fair bit there I think they were the only place that had bent grass greens around the Dallas for Worth area other than Colonial which I was playing

Colonial well we couldn’t get on Colonial I wasn’t on Colonial although I did get that was a place where I played my first Tour event because I won the southest conference in 83 so I got invited to play Colonial so my very first Tour event and I think I think the

First time I ever played Colonial was 1983 um and then you know there were loads and I don’t know if you did this but I you know I grew up playing municipal golf courses in the Dallas Forth area so I grew up in these gambling scenarios and I remember one

Time getting in this gambling match at Colonial Mark Brooks was in the group where we played one with a one iron two with a two iron three with a three iron all the way around to nine with a nine iron and it was something like $100 a whole one down automatic

Presses it’s crazy stuff like that I remember I remember some guy I played with I forgotten his name is like Gary Chandler or something he was a great Gambler around that area he shot 38 on the front line at Colonial playing like that one Club per hole one Club per hole

Wow you know and you know you get down to you’re playing nine at Colonial with a nine iron and you know I mean he shot three over uh you know those are the kind of games we got yeah it was pretty fun yeah no those um I kind of I grew up the

Same listen I played at Brook Haven and then like our high school stuff was all at the Dallas area you know municipals and um same deal um that’s how you learn how to play though and learn how to compete is you in my opinion you kind of

Get in some of those games where you’re a little bit over your head and and you really got to go and uh it makes you it it kind of Stokes your fire and go okay can I do this or can I not do this so exactly I I think that still probably

Goes on with some of the younger generation now but but I don’t know I think that was more the of the the era that we grew up in and kind of the the wild west there wasn’t as much money in golf you’re right I think you’re right I

Mean you know you’re 16 17 18 years old and you went a 100 bucks playing golf dude you are loaded you’re loaded you’re loaded I I’ll give you one more real quick I remember one time I won the the Dallas men’s championship I was 17 but

And I was playing at Cedar Crest and this old man came up to me he had to be in his 70s and he asked me uh if I wanted to play a game for $100 a hole that was so that was $900 and at the

Time I worked in the bag room at Los kenas Country Club so I had five or $600 and I said well I’ll come back next weekend I’ll play it so I went home and I asked my dad if I could borrow 300 bucks because you had to have 900 bucks

To put it up front to play this game and this man had said you pick any two clubs to play the front nine and I’ll play you with three clubs a seven iron a wedge and a putter that’s what he said he was like 70 I went home my dad was like okay

I’ll give you 300 bucks I’ll loan you 300 bucks but you’re gonna lose I’m like Dad there’s no way I’m gonna lose this guy’s like 70 years old I I’ll I’ll figure out a way to beat him so all week I practice punching hitting lo you know

I tried to figure out what perfect Club so I got to where I’d play with a Top Flight or a magnum and I could blade it and on those hard Fairways they’d go like 250 yards and then you could punch it hit H at 160 and cut it hit it 140

And so I I played him with an eight iron and a Putter and sure enough this guy did get on the first te with a seven iron a wedge and a putter but his seven iron had a two iron loft and a driver shaft in it and and he could hit it

Forever and he he beat me three down uh so I lost 300 bucks I came home and the guy wanted to carry on playing but I knew i’ when I’d been beat whatever so I quit I came home and my dad was like so how much money you

I said 300 bucks and he’s like I told you you were gonna lose and I never forgot that I was like that man was awesome well that that’s how you learn valuable life lessons right there right you don’t mess with the 70y old in the

Three Club tournament no no I shot 38 by the way on the front nine with an eight iron and a Putter and got beat three down it wasn’t like I shot 44 or something I played my butt off I can see that I played with guys similar to that

Growing up at Brook Haven um yeah same type of stuff you know but that’s what that’s what kind of got you competitive and that’s that’s probably what helped both of us um you know at least make it to the PGA Tour and as as I I don’t

Think I mentioned but you won on the PGA tour which is an accomplishment um whether people think it is or not that is a different level of golf even it even back in the days we’re talking about it is a different level of of uh getting all your getting

All your ducks in a row and winning against the best players in the world I enjoyed it you know I played 15 years on the tour and I I loved every minute of it I I worked my butt off um I didn’t play as well over the course of my

Career as I certainly thought I was going to but uh but I I enjoyed it you know I gave it everything I had and uh you know when I moved on I was I didn’t really have any regrets at all I looked

Back on it and it was I I got to play a sport for a living and be in the most wonderful places in the world and get paid to play the best golf courses that I would probably have pay to go play and I really enjoyed it it’s great run it I

I agree 100% you get to travel the world you know travel the country quote quote travel the world play best golf courses um and play for money which you didn’t have to put up like you did when you were trying to beat a 70y old with three

Clubs exactly your dad your dad wasn’t as pissed at you because he wasn’t having to Shell out 300 oh no he was he was funny I remember the first time I played with you I think was at the leget Amer which you won I remember I I played

My butt off in the first round and got paired with you and I I think you shot 64 first time I ever played with you and you were still in high school and I was like holy hell this is a this is an absolute force to be reckoned with and

That was I think that let’s see 84 you won the usam then you probably the only person in the history of the game that ever won the Western am in the western open in the same dead gum Year and that was that incredible run but you won the legit am

I’m not wrong I’m not I think somewhere in there didn’t you uh you know I did I yeah I I mean I I did I want it three years in a row so I I don’t know what you’re saying but I’m not here to Pat

Myself on the back I’m more here to to get get good stuff out of you man well that was great I remember that well I I appreciate it those are good memories for me and and and they were they were learning learning memories for

Both of us hey one thing that I do uh admire about what you do now is you are very well prepared um obviously you you like you must like to read because I know you read a lot I can just tell by the way you talk and the way you

Reference things um and obviously you’re a golf swing geek you know whatever that means but yeah you you uh understand the golf swing and you’ve you’ve obviously done a lot of studying to it so um that to me uh is what’s most impressive because when you speak right wrong or

Indifferent and obviously you generate a lot of uh you generate both sides of the aisle pretty good you know if you get on social media and look you have a lot of uh followers or a lot of a lot of people that support you and then you have a lot

Of detractors too and I think such as the nature of social media but no one could ever accuse you of not being prepared um so you just does that just come naturally to you or do you just take so much pride in your work that

That’s you know by God I’m going to I’m going to know what I’m talking about I think all that uh Scott I I’ve always loved the history of the game I’ve always been probably to my detriment uh a swing geek describe it you know I played the tour I you know have

Taken top 100 teacher you could have imagine but read every book on the golf swing you could imagine I just didn’t enjoy it and you know I I I do think you know if you look at the best players of all time they probably can’t tell you how they did it

Um because they became very good at what they were doing at a very early age and never really did have to struggle or think their way through it with the exception of say maybe Ben Hogan who I don’t think coincidentally wrote one of the most uh well-read probably this

Single so I don’t know that anybody thought more about the golf William Ben Hogan but he struggled with the game but most people who the game came easy to at an early age didn’t have to think about it and those that in the game to to hit

The ball like Elite golfers in the game thought about it a lot uh that’s why most of the teachers were not great players I think I would argue so and because I’m in the business of talking about golf constantly um I’ve made it my business to to do the best I can to

Understand as much as I can about the golf swing um and and you know I’m I love the history of the game I love the tradition of the game and and yeah I owe it to our audience to try to tell them at the end of a long day something

That’s maybe not so obvious and try to put my take on it I get up every single morning I treat my job like a job I get up at right ungodly hours and I I work all day long uh even when I’m off I’m still at my computer uh reading looking

At data trying to figure something interesting out about the game that piques my interest because I it’s it’s then you know our audience is not like a typical Sports audience they’re not just watching for entertainment they’re watching also to get better and try to share that with them well that that you

Know that makes sense and you do uh like I said you are uh well versed and you definitely do your homework um so I mean obviously like what what tournament is the best tournament obviously you’re getting to cover all these great events now but is going to the Masters still

Like the greatest thing as a broadcaster as it was as a player yeah no doubt I I I would say so uh you I get that question a fair bet I’d say there are three tournaments that really stand out the Masters obviously our set is beautiful it’s right on the Range there

Right and and and what’s so great about the Masters as you well know is that our audience knows every hole almost as well as we do and every shot has context to it when someone’s standing over a shot in a second Fairway you know Louis us is

And hold one there uh you know when someone’s standing over a second shot on eight people can remember sevy in 1986 hooking it around the corner and make an eagle or Tom K everybody every shot has contact so it’s exciting it’s beautiful uh the Open Championship is certainly

Like that and then the ryer you know the Ryder Cup there’s no event like the Ryder Cup and golf and to cover those three and you know look I used to say the Phoenix Open it got I think the Phoenix Open got a little out of hand

For this year uh the Phoenix Open is is unique uh and fun in a different way um certainly nothing like the Masters that’s for sure as far away from the Masters as a tournament could get one is reverent one’s irreverence yeah don’t even mention those in the same breath no

No you’re right Scott but the Phoenix Open The Phoenix open’s fun it may have got a little out of control but it’s a hand this year it’s been headed that way for about 20 years from about the time tiger made the hole in one in ’97 that’s

Right from that point on they started building stands and and now it is it’s something but I dig grass I’d really rather you know I’m lucky enough to uh do some work at the Masters as well I only get I cover a couple tournaments

For CBS ESPN and and austa is even I I got to play there 15 times but I look as forward to going and doing my little uh threeh hole deal with with Dave Fleming and Jeff slowman four five and six um for the Master’s Channel and man it is

The it is the place and it is Augusta National is just amazing uh through and through top to bottom it’s hard to explain how how great it is isn’t it it is you know I uh I’ve never met anybody that went to the Masters that came away

And didn’t say that it exceeded their expectations you know you think about how many things are lotted to the extreme restaurants movies concerts that never Almost Never could live up to the hype and it doesn’t matter how much you hype Augusta National people who leave

There always come away and say no no no I wasn’t prepared for that you know it was almost a religious experience uh and I still get that way when I go there I I do when I walk those grounds I get there every year I walk the grounds and I I

Like you know this is this is look in a in a you know what what St Andrews has in history can never be taught topped but in cinematography Perfection Augusta National can never be top topped that is perfection from a strategic standpoint from a uh a beauty of the golf course

Standpoint from a sounds of the game standpoint from an anticipation of the competition standpoint it’s just everything you could ever ask for no no no doubt it is a um it is a definitely a bucket list for any sports even if you don’t like golf it is a bucket list item

Kind of that Rider cup are the two things in golf that I would say are are things like going to a Super Bowl or a Kentucky Derby or you know stuff like that so we are both obviously you have a great setup there I’ve been really lucky you wouldn’t believe this the content

Center I’m sure you’ve seen it there that at austa but yes it is about as good as it gets um but yeah I’m looking forward to that I know you are as well all right so let’s get in I I really got to ask you what in the hell is going on

With golf now I know you have a lot of strong opinions um and I think everybody does um but give me your best take of of what’s happened and and where you think professional golf is going well I think the most important shareholder in the

Game of golf uh is the lifelong fan of the game and what’s happening in the game of golf is that we’re risking alienating the lifelong fan of the game the core golfer uh those are the people had Drive the game of golf uh they tune in to watch the best

Players in the world and if uh they become detached with the best players uh in the world they’re they’re not as likely to tune in and I think the game has been irreparably damaged and tilted towards greed uh and I don’t know if the game will ever be the same unfortunately you

Know there was always a standing on the shoulders of giants awareness in the game of golf that even professional golfers were just car Akers in the game of golf uh for a an era or a moment in time and there was a sense that they had taken the game from those players that

Came before them who did the best job they could to make it better for them they passed it on to them and their job was to be a caretaker of it and pass it onto the Next Generation make sure the game was in a better place that they

They were really there for a moment in time as you were as I was a moment in time and there’s a sense that you know that cons custodial aspect of the game is now gone and it’s more about a a blind greediness with no respect what came before them and and no obvious

Sense of debt to Future generations and I think that’s palpable and I think the audience sees that and there’s a Detachment in the in the in the audience with the golfer right now because of it well no I mean golf is a different sport than any other sport on the planet or

Any other sport that I’ve been gotten familiar with um you know the things that you said just the way you’re supposed to act the way you’re supposed to treat people the respect for history um and you know just respect for everything around you that’s kind of the gentleman you know it’s a gentleman’s

Game basically is is how it was started so I I agree with you uh the player side of me if I was a 24 25y old butt kicker I’d be like this is the best thing to get never happen if if you play golf you know you play golf professionally to

Make money um the influx of money is great from the player side but like um every business every situation the more money you get the more hands there need there wants to be in the pot and the more things get out of context so um you know I know you’re pretty

Outspoken about the the piff and the investment side of it which I’m not a fan I mean i’ I’m a lifelong PGA Tour member I’m not a a uh I’m not a fan of any anybody that would want to hurt the PGA Tour but I think I feel like the PJ

Tour has kind of bungled the thing up do you have any kind of thoughts on that well look I I I say you know I hear that side of the argument um but I would say let’s you know if you put yourself in the position of a business let’s say

Let’s say and this analogy has been made I think it’s a good one uh you’re Coca-Cola and you’re competing with Pepsi and Pepsi decides to give their product away for free you could never anticipate that from a business side if you’re the CEO of cocacola you could never anticipate the irrational economic

Decision of somebody deciding to give away their product for free or essentially free or to not care about rational economic um principles you can’t compete with that uh in a in a in a free market you can’t compete with irrational economic decisions so when people want to criticize go ahead well I

Was going to say but that’s that’s kind of my my point to the money’s gotten so big that the rules have changed um you know the the rule the the rational economic decision is not what it used to be if you have an endless endless supply then the rules are different so

You have to be you have to have a different approach wouldn’t you agree well it’s it’s hard to compete um if you’re if your if your responsibility your fiduciary responsibility as a head of a company is to make sure that you can pay the bills at the end of the year

And your expense is now competing with an irrational economic player doesn’t allow for rational economic decisions then you cannot fulfill your fiduciary responsibility the game has been irreparably tilted towards greed so they’re competing with the Saudis and I’ll be explicit here because I want people to clearly understand where my descent with piff

Comes from it comes from a couple of different places okay so the person in charge of piff is one person okay that’s NBS that’s one person it’s not a committee it’s not a board it’s not a governor okay yaser is an extension of MBS he does what NBS wants him to do my

Descent with the live is that it is an instrument of nbs’s to diversify his economy which he needs to do but also to sports wash his reputation in Saudi Arabia and I’ll just be explicit let’s just pick one thing a woman cannot get married in Saudi Arabia unless she has a male

Guardian and when she gets married that guardianship is passed on to the woman and that woman must obey that man under almost every situation where they live where they travel to how often they have sex and if she disobeys or she registers her uh descent in any active way she

Risks she risks indefinite imprisonment because to get out of prison even after she served her time she has to have Mel Guardian permission to get out of prison now there’s been sort of tokens along the line thrown to women in Saudi Arabia and along the line of Human Rights they

Allow women to drive now they can listen to music occasionally but this male guardianship law has been codified it’s been codified into law in 2022 so so and homosexuals are treated worse dissidents are treated worse so that element that element is NBS BS runs piff piff funds live

So that is the element that’s been brought to the game of golf so that’s where my that’s where my descent is beyond that and I think this was evident when I saw John ROM playing uh in his first live event and the music was blaring had shorts on and he was getting

Pretty pissy about somebody taking a picture of him in the middle of his swing and it just hit me it just hit me I thought you know this guy went from essentially being having a lead role in The Godfather to now being a sideshow in a Vaudeville act and all of these players

It seems to me realize that they’ve all made a fou impact all of them they’ve all sold their their independent nature you know independent contractors is what they were referred to uh playing the PGA Tour and now then they when they were independent they could go wherever they

Wanted play any Tour event they wanted play at any time they wanted could skip any event they wanted and they were free to pretty much say and do anything they wanted but now they’re not they’re not free to do anything except what uh yaser piff and NBS demand that they do and if

You remember John ROM after he went he had one initial comment then he said now then I can’t speak again until the beginning of the next year when I’m at live right so so he’s been silenced he’s been L and when they do speak they’re all puppets to the regime that they

Represent that’s where my descent with piff comes from golf has been this traditional place with a foundation of philanthropy and now it has a foundation of greed when I look at what we reserve our highest Acclaim for for athletes it’s not just for accomplishment it’s for those that have

Taken principled STS so that’s why we law Jackie Robinson or Muhammad Ali or M Martina abala or Bill Russell or Arthur Ash or P Tillman or Kareem Abdul Jabar that’s why we law them taken principled stances so there was so when you think well who could bring about change in Saudi Arabia well

Not if everybody concedes or if everybody uh is is is is ready to put their hand out if one if one player said look happy to take the money show me real evid and by the way Martina navat alova and Chris ever did write a beautiful column along these

Lines because uh you know there was a s I knew you were prepared brandle you read an article by Martina and Chris ever oh no they wrote a beautiful article but wrote a beautiful article because there there was a sense of taking uh a premier tennis tournament a

Women’s tennis tournament to uh Saudi Arabia and both of them protested and they wrote a they wrote a column in it’s worth reading it wouldn’t be hard to find for any of your audience you know just type in their names at Saudi Arabia and it’s a beautiful column where they

Talk about the responsibilities of one generation to the next uh as caretakers of the sport and you know if you if you are in their instance talking about the equality in women’s sports is it not uh uh is it not um going against the grain of everything that they’ve stood

For for decades upon decades fighting for equality in women’s sports to acques to the Saudis to go have an event in Saudi Arabia under the pretense of sport when really it’s about sports washing uh it’s a beautiful column and and look that’s why we law Martina naala that’s

Why we LW Chris ever uh athletes are in unique positions to take principal positions and when people say well it’s sport it’s not politics it’s like it couldn’t be further from the truth the minute sport gets mixed up in politics and NBS is using sport for political

Reasons it becomes political no no doubt and that was my uh I mean I listen you make a great argument like you like you do every day on television um my biggest problem with how the two are handled is is they immediately went political which I thought was a huge

Mistake and that kind of dug the that kind of dug the hole a little deeper than it probably needed to be um I understand I’m not as uh I’m not researching every single day like you are but I understand the dynamic between Greg Norman um J

Monahan um you know the piff the I I get that I’ve been around long enough I’ve you know as you we grew up in kind of Greg Norman era or or played a lot of golf in that I mean he was good he was the best player in the world for a long

Time but besides that I’m not sure I you know is he the guy you want to hit your wagon to I don’t know um but that’s kind of what it’s turned into in my opinion is kind of a a Greg versus Jay thing um and that’s not that has not been healthy um

Well I I would say look you know as as on the flip side of this if Liv wants to poach players um I say look let’s compete let’s compete you know the PGA Tour is you know there’s all these pipelines to creating stars and and what

Liv is trying to do and they is buy a moment in time and pretend that it represents time Eternal you know they’re buying these stars as if these stars um level of play is going to remain constant at infinum which we we both know it’s not there’s it’s imposs nobody’s ever done

That of course not I mean very few players Windows exceed four or five years uh at the top very few plac players exceed right but even if you get four or five years of let’s just say uh Elite level golf you’re amongst the elite of all time that’s where most

Players you know who Ascend to the Hall of Fame they get it done in four or five years true but the PGA Tour has a pipeline of college players corn fairy tour players players all around the world that feed into the PGA Tour and then and then develop on the PGA tour

And become Stars Max H is a is a is a phenomen example Max was 185th 175th Max has a huge following in the game of golf and is a I would say marketable star but when you look at the interest level on the PGA tour there’s very few players that move the

Needle they can have they can have the John Ron people didn’t tune in to watch John Ron play golf they didn’t buy tickets to watch John Ron to play golf the needle does not get moved by John ROM it didn’t not in this country not in this country in this country it was

Tiger Woods it’s Roy mro it’s Phil Mickelson uh and Jordan spe yeah it hurt when Phil left and it hurt when Phil I think lent his his his uh let’s just say his uh rhetorical chops uh to the to the efforts of live uh and it did bend the game so when

People want to point the finger at Jay Monahan I say no I say the fingers to me it should be pointed at Phil Phil Mickelson and Greg Norman these are the two that had the ability to stand up and say to the Saudis you want to you want to you want

To come play in the west okay you wna you want to buy the success of the West and pretend you’re custodian to that success then you need to you know let’s get out of medieval times uh they could have affected they could have affected change show me real evidence of of

Substant change within your country get rid of your male guardianship law okay get rid of it okay you want us to come to Saudi Arabia to play golf you really want economic diversity in your country how about you get out of the mid Middle Ages uh they could have they they have

That power I I agree with you uh but just keeping it to golf I mean I I’m on your side in General on this but the but there are fourth largest trading partner okay I mean I’m not going to I don’t want to argue about it anymore actually

I’m kind of tired of live and the two are fighting about it cuz like you said the Fan’s the only person that’s getting screwed in this deal everybody wants to have the best players playing against each other um and I’m a little bit disappointed with both sides that they can’t come together that’s

Just my take on it well I would say look to to people that say look we all want the best players playing together uh look there were years and years where Bernard Langer sebie B steros Nick FDO played the European tour and they only came together for the major

Championships it’s not like we’ve always had the best players playing together the European tour had the best players in the world at the top for the majority of the world rankings through the 80s and the 90s until Tiger Woods came along Bernard ler Ian wam Nick F sebie bad

Steros Jose Maria Alo those were the best players in the world they played in Europe the PGA Tour was one entity and there was another tour and the world got along fine so I don’t know why everybody acts like Liv is this unique uh scenario where they’ve got four or five of the

Best players in the world and that’s never happened to the P Peter Thompson was probably one of the best players in the world he didn’t play PGA Tour Bobby L played somewhere else in the rest of the world he didn’t play on the P this

Is not unique in the history of the game no but the time you’re talking about those players sevy Bernard falo they all came over here to play though ultimately because the money was better here um and I agree with you I mean those were the best players in the world at the time

But they did ultimately migrate to the PGA Tour because the tournaments full time yeah not full time well no but but that’s when all the things that’s when all the controversy back in our day of how many tournaments you got to play to be a member came about you know so

They’re trying to they’re trying to negotiate back and forth you know does this tournament it’s like now it’s kind of stupid you know a a major counts on three different tours as a tournament played as as your home tour which just trying to you know trying to work the

Rules around to get it you know to make it all to make it work what’s best for each tour what’s best for the media television and what’s best for the money I mean that’s ultimately what it’s about all right listen I I think you and I

Could talk for hours about live we could really talk for hours about anything but I got to ask you a couple of things before I don’t want to keep you all day unless you have all day umine yeah it’s good to catch up with you listen I know

It it is great um and I love you because you’re opin opinionated like I said I think we could differ on things but I know you’re well versed so I I I respect that a ton but what do you think has happened with with the equipment you

Know the ball roll back the way the equipment has changed because that’s changed the game as much as anything probably as much as the money has changed the game the equipment I’m in favor of I hate to say it but I’m in favor of biic of rules where the PGA

Tour has our own equipment standards I just think the game is the players are so good now the athletes that used Tiger Woods brought in a whole different level of athlete you know no offense to guys from our era even before but man there’s not very many guys coming out now that

Aren’t 6’2 185 you know can run the 4740 and we’re the starting free safety in high school right I mean those guys are playing golf now so yeah that with the equipment I think that’s been as big a change and in some ways not great for

The history and the legacy of the game yeah how tall are you by the way what are you 59 5 5’9 5’9 so I my wife Bailey and I were at the tailor made event at uh Pebble Beach and I was how tall how tall are you 5’9 and and I was talking

To belly Andre I think Willie Wood was somewhere around there Jeff sluman anyway uh guys I was telling my wife when I I said that’s what tour players used to look like they were they were five nand Randle you only like them because they were all shorter than you dude well

SL you thought that you know you thought well Will’s not as tall as you or me and I don’t know you just like that because you were bigger you were a brute compared to that I was I I could look him eye to eye Mark Brooks uh Tracy Phillips these

These Guys these are what tour players look like yeah and and now they’re all 6 fo2 185 uh and they all look like Michael Phelps uh and so with that has come faster Club head speeds uh more athleticism to the game uh you know and

I think it’s been great for the game I think it is great for the game they they you you tune in now and you get a sense that you really are watching athletes uh the argument about equipment I look I’ve come full circle on and initially I was

For uh a roll back then I dove in and started looking at has the game materially changed because the equipment and I I came 180 degrees I didn’t think that the roll back of the golf ball the equipment was necessary uh and then with the anchored band I thought well this is

A perfect time for bif foration in the game and you know if they decided to buy for gate the game it wouldn’t they they were going to roll the ball back it doesn’t play I don’t think the golf ball needs to roll be rolled back if they wanted to

Make the head smaller uh you know the game because look because the head is so forgiving what do you see now you see guys who have stronger grips they swing much harder uh they they stay behind it they rotate and extend and at the expense of accuracy they’re willing to

Risk uh to pick up yardage I think a more organic change could come about the game just by changing the way golf courses are set up but the era of architecture that we’re in right now and the philosophy of design and the philosophy of setup is that polar opposite ends to what the

Game needs uh Golf Course architecture has swung into this this this Mania of every course has to looks like a linkx golf course right the dfor station’s G run a muck cut all the trees down 80 yard wide Fairways at so we can have all these angles etc etc well all that does

Is encourage players to swing harder no no doubt I mean that listen what you’re saying right there was like what they did with three or four holes at Riviera which Rivier is one of the greatest golf courses ever designed in my opinion I mean I think age if you’re a golf course

Architect you should have to go walk Riviera and look at the green the way the green are set the way the bunkers are built but then there they went in there and they did that what you said on you know maybe the 12th hole the 13th hole the 15th hole man they just

Fundamentally changed the holes they made the fairways twice as wide uh backed it way up but but distance is not a factor to these guys anymore um I guess my point is I’m not I I think they’re fantastic I think there’s more good players now than there’s ever

Been but the things that made golf all we were talking about all this stuff with the with the the piff and the and the history and the money and all this well the thing that makes golf great is it’s different and the things that have made golf great for 200 years are not

Near as important as they used to be in my opinion used to be about ball control uh oh yeah you know playing playing playing to your strengths playing smart playing with strategy I mean strategy is out the window when all you do is TE it

As high as you can and hit it as as far as you can and if I could do that that’s what I would do and if I had a kid learn how to swing as fast as you can and then we’ll worry about where it’s going

Because we can fix where it’s going yeah and so look the you know the RNA and the USGA decided to roll the golf ball back to some extent you know and we could debate how far that’s going to be but if the if that if that roll back does

Indeed lead to more compelling Golf and a need to work the ball more and bring more Artistry back into the game I I still think there’s an amazing amount of artistry in in the game I see it all the time examples of it and I could go on on

And on and on and on giving you examples of it uh but if it does indeed make the game more compelling I’ll go what you were right I was wrong game’s more compelling now it it brings uh more variety of players into the game which I

Don’t know how I mean there is ample room for short hitters uh to make a living in this game an Ample Ample room and there’s loads of short hitters out there making uh great living in this game but to the idea that short hitters

Have ever had a leg up in this game or ever been able to Prevail in this game if you go down that list of Varden Trophy winners which I believe goes back to 1942 yeah all the way back and you start to look at V and Trophy winners

Okay with the exception of Lee trino and Lee even if Lee were sitting here right now he would say he won a majority of those Von trophies only because Jack Nicholas didn’t play enough rounds didn’t play enough rounds to qualify for the ven trophy Jack would

Have won nine ven trophies nine in his career and he won none but he would have won nine if they wouldn’t have had such ridiculously archaic rules about what it took to qualify but nonetheless Lee trino did win the vardan trophy there are very few short hitters that dominated in the vardan

Trophy you’re talking about players in the greats of this game for that when you start that rarified ER of the greats of the game those are long and straight hitters Le has always been an asset and always and and I look at the game now and I’m like well well who dominates the

Game golf now it’s not just long hitters if you go down and look at the top 10 long hitters in the in the game of golf last year their average world rank was something like 15th right ones who dominate in this game don’t just hit it long they hit it

Long and straight and they’ve got precision and they’ve got great touch and they’ve got great mechanics and they they manage their games well well that’s no different than who won in the 60s and the 70s and the 80s the game has not materially changed uh it’s just that you

Know people who look at golf courses as as works of art not to be touched see Augusta National has I think done this right as technology improvements have come along they’ve kept in step with those technological improvements and so if you look at the difficulty of Augusta National and

Compare it to 40 years ago it is almost to the hundredth of a stroke uh the same golf course that it was 40 years ago in spite of the fact that golfers are 40 yards longer um so you know and and and alist McKenzie eons ago uh in uh in a

Book trying to remember the title of his book but he he wrote that a golf course needs to be elastic so you know there’s this argument that how you know how long do golf courses need to be um there are very few golf courses in the overall

Scheme of things that host PGA Tour events but if they set golf courses up with the right width of Fairways the right thickness of rough uh that are at the right length these changes that need to come to the game of golf to whatever degree they need to come would come about organically

Yeah no and and I I agree I mean I think that um you know the driving the ball long and straight now is I mean a straight driver now is a guy who hits 60% of the fairways that’s right I mean and back in uh I don’t know Jack

Nicholas Heyday or uh you know just the travinos I mean there got they were they way more accurate than that well well I’ll give you this though it it’s I think it’s a a misunderstanding of the word Ben Hogan hit it long Ben Hogan hit it long for

His day but he hit it but that but he would he hit it straight the guys now I would not say hit it straight well the the way to judge straightness at least in my view is not by Fairways hit it’s it’s degrees off a center line so you

Know a Three Degree uh dispersion at 270 yards obviously is going to be smaller than a 3 degree dispersion at 350 yards so if you’ve got a 3 degre dispersion at 350 yards versus a 3 degree dispersion at 270 yards you are a much much much

Better driver than the guy who drives at 270 with a 33 person okay a much much much better driver so in my view you can’t have Fairways that are the width that they were in the 80s so the USGA I I would respectfully disagree with their setup um so so look if you

Try and they did this at Wingfoot if you try to set a golf course up with Fairway widths that were appropriate in the 80s okay and rough that was appropriate in the 80s then what you get is players that are even short hitters by today’s standards can’t hit enough Fairways to

Compete with the longer hitters if you have to take into account the average distance now and the dispersion and you widen the fair ways according to that dispersion and then you take into account the amount of Club head speed the angle of attack and the club they’re

Coming into it and so the rough can’t be three inches it needs to be five and a half inches so you have to appropriately penalize a missed Fairway such that there’s reward for finding the Fairway so now players will gravitate more towards a spin or golf ball and a club

With less Omi Moi and more player and shorter hitters can compete with longer hitters so the thing about Bryson Des Shambo winning at Wing foot everybody going wow you never hit any Fairways if you go look at who drove it the longest and straightest on a dispersion off the

Center line by degrees he drove it longer and straighter than anybody in that he was the longest straightest hitter that week right but he only hit 42% of his Fairway right so if the fairways had been not 28 yards wide but 32 yards wide and the rough had been not

Three and a half inches but 5 and A2 Ines so that the penalty for missing a fairway is not point three strokes but 0 five or 6 or S Strokes then shorter hitters can compete with longer hitters in the US Open so it becomes a matter of

Math to me and dispersion angles but that’s where we’re at in the game of golf all of that stuff is available to you you can find it and you can use it to set up and bring about the change you want in a more organic manner well no I

There’s no doubt you can find the like you said go by the math and you can do do it but I I’m just talking about the Artistry I mean from what from we grew up with not the equipment not the you know everybody has a trackman everybody

Has you know a strength coach a putting coach a psychologist a swing coach um and they’re all they’re all kind of you know want to be scientist if they’re not scientists um and I don’t know if that that is healthy for the Artistry and the longterm I’d agree with you the longterm

Game of because the game is about the game is about competing against yourself at the highest level and a lot of that and a lot of that is emotional um and internalized and man that’s where to me the game’s getting away I agree that’s where we’re not it’s not getting away

We’re losing what has made golf great for 200 years and it’s not going away overnight but all the things that are happening today in my opinion are kind of they’re kind of lessening and and it’s it’s all involved it’s the money um it’s the equipment it’s the golf course

Setup they’re all kind of lessening the things that make golf the greatest sport and I hate that golf would turn into another I love all the other professional sports but the attitudes and the behaviors are not what golf is and I’m concerned about that that’s why like you said Augusta National is the

Greatest they’re in line but they but they’re Augusta National they can they have the the means and they have the the money and they have the wherewithal to stay ahead of the equipment no not really any other place does um so that to me that’s

A problem I mean I and I uh like I said I haven’t studied it I don’t study golf like you do every single day that’s why I enjoy talking with you because I know you’re going to be educated about it but there’s got to be a happy medium in

There somewhere who are the artists that you like when you know I mean you and I are the same era so I think well you know some redundancy here but like who did you really think was an artist when you played golf with him obviously obviously sevy um you know

Trino is a little older than me but I did play a lot of golf with him um as a younger guy obviously just the guys that you know those guys are were characters too like you said I mean I I’m with you every to me almost every great player

Does not have a cookie cutter swing they have their own swing they may add some things to it that make it look better but it’s their own swing and those kind of things have gone the individualism of of you know the Artistry I mean it’s

Kind of like what in in in my real era of playing good golf the two best players were Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson well they just happened to be the two best artists too they were they were by far the best Chippers in that in that era of their time they were by

Everybody thought oh tiger hit it great you know Phil could hit all these what you know really long and all that but they were the best they were the two best chippers by far so they so they knew how to play the game from the artist standpoint and I think that’s I

Always love the way Tiger Woods hit the ball but that’s not what impressed me about him what impressed me about him was his ability to get the ball in the hole like other people weren’t aware of and and hadn’t even considered so yeah I just kind of I I I just this I

I I’m not disappointed it just it’s just I don’t want to lose the things that make golf great where anybody can go out there and feel like they have a chance because they have the skill sets that have made the game great for 200 years so well you’re talking about the

Individuality in the game and when I when I look at the landscape a game and I hear all these players reference their team and I get it golf is is lonely you’re out on the tour it’s nice to have people around you to support team everybody you know has to sort of

Justify their existence so you have people out there that are coaching them from a strategic standpoint from a technical standpoint from a putting standpoint from a mechanical standpoint from a nutrition standpoint and so there is at least in my view there is a sense of everybody getting coached to the

Middle uh you know from a strategic standpoint what do you pay for you pay for people that are willing to take a risk to win a golf tournament so wins used to open every single door on tour that’s no longer the case not just winds that open every

Single door on tour it is it is FedEx Cup points it is world ranking points so when you watch uh Nick Taylor won the W Phoenix Open right right so he gets to 15 on Sunday and he’s got 250 I think it’s 251 to the hole only need 230 to carry that

That water right uh right there in front so he’s got 230 so and he was at the time I think two back he might have been one back but I think he was two back and he laid up right now he did hit a wedge close and

Make birdie and he went on to play some incredibly clutch Golf and he won right right but that to me was an example of somebody who had been coached to a you know to me I you know I would have thought the strategy and the coaching

Would have been to go for it because in that particular instance there’s enough Fairway short and enough leeway left and right that it was worth the risk and he could have easily covered the distance the day before he had 259 and he knocked it up just in front of the green this

Was a shorter shot but he laid it up and hit wedge now I understand that strategically and the fact that he went on to win perhaps validates that decision but that’s not exactly what people pay to see they pay to see sevy take the chance sometimes sometimes if

We can make this analogous to a blackjack game people want to see somebody hit on 17 they want to see somebody take a chance or take a risk okay I love Blackjack brandle but it’s really hard to hit on 17 okay hit on 16 uh but always hit on

16 brandle you you you you like to see somebody all their chips in occasionally uh and if everybody’s being coached you know they’re all taught they’re all being taught to have one shot Shake that’s true there are statisticians out there to say look whatever your shot

Shape is don’t ever try to hit a draw if you hit a fade don’t ever try to hit a fade if you hit a draw that that may make strategic sense but tiger didn’t play that way Phil didn’t play that way Nicholas didn’t play that way Hogan

Didn’t play that way that doesn’t that doesn’t represent the height this game can be I look at it and I think the coaching is great and it’s inevitable does some damage I think to the interest level of the game well I I do too um brandle we’ve been on here a

Long time I really would like you to come back sometime because I think we can talk forever um but I don’t want to take up your whole day my dog’s getting antsy over here kind of you got there uh I have a boyin Spaniel and she is almost

13 years old she’s been my she’s been my hunting partner for uh for 13 years um loves to Quail hunt.com um you do any kind of what do you do besides study Golf and and talk on television you have any other Hobbies uh gosh you know no not really I I read a

Lot uh my wife and I travel a fair bit um you know uh no I mean honestly reading is my hobby to be honest with you um I you know I play tennis I hike I bike um you know those kinds of things I play other sports I go to the gym and

Those kind of things but but but if you’re asking me my my perfect day my perfect day is to break up have a cup of coffee uh and uh and read uh I just like just like when you were a player if you’re not consumed by you know when if

You play the PGA t or if you don’t eat drink sleep you know everything gol then you’re going to fall behind so good I I I but I appreciate brel I appreciate that about you because I know that you are fully committed um to what you’re

Doing thanks great at it I I appreciate that it’s nice to catch up with you I’ve uh obviously uh you know been a big fan of yours and admired your game and the way you’ve handled yourself and life throws you curveballs the way you’ve dealt with uh uh you know I don’t even

Know if you call it a disability anymore but living a whole life with diabetes couldn’t have been easy but you’ve always handled it with a plum so uh I’ve always had a great respect for you and uh and your family and the way you handle yourself Scott well I appreciate

That brandle um but yeah listen I can’t thank you enough for coming on like I said I think you’re an important voice um and you are well-versed probably probably to the detriment uh to yourself from some people because you almost sound too freaking smart so um you gotta

Get back to your herbing rout I’m I’m I’m made aware every day of of my Ines I know all I got to do is all you got to do is look at your social media deal and you’re hey you got the love hate relationship you know and the

Haters are always going to hate so you just have to deal with it I remember when the first year I got into TV I was talking to Mike too who is just you know um he’s the best he the best I mean he’s just one of the most uh generous people

You ever work with who’s also a genius of what he does uh I remember he he said to me uh look if you do your job right as an analyst half the people are going to love you and half of them are going to hate you he goes and you just have to

Get comfortable with that uh well and not not sure words have never been said you know I always I just I try to find the truth and say what I believe and you know that if that up set seven people I’m I’m okay with that well

That that that is how you uh have built you’ve built a unique spot in golf you know there was not you created a position that was not there and was not available um so kudos to you for that and hey keep going and hopefully I’ll

Get you uh to come back on sometime I know we could talk for hours reminising but anyway I look forward to seeing you down the road hopefully I will see you at the Masters look forward to it Scott take care thanks for having me on so much Rand cheers all right

Cheers that wraps another episode of the Scott bur plank show follow And subscribe to this Channel and visit sellout crow.com for upcoming Episodes