Forty20 LIVE – 26th February 2024

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That song which proud right well that was one of the songs she sang but she did a she did a whole U she did about half an hour that’s two words and what was the other word he us instead of Ferrari it was a

Word oh that’s two I need to look up she did Co write as well she made a fortune off the back of that song cuz it’s one of the songs that like We Are the Champions that gets played all the time now at Major sporting events so you know

Well done to her for that so it was a great night obviously in the end the right team one for Britain um I think the right team one for the sport well I think they were the best they were probably the well there wasn’t much between the two teams really were there

I was going to say they were probably the best team on the night they were the best team defensively on the night and the thing about penri that was quite frightening was that when they got it right they didn’t have to click into gear quickly yeah they played quick

Through the middle when they when they when they played well and they had a a young kid Jack Cole at standoff that was only playing his second game so clearly again he he played as well as you would have expected him to play but he wasn’t Jerome Lei and it’s all instinctive

Steven kryon um clearly has moved on now you get the feeling and nobody will ever know if he’d have got the opportunity that may got when he broke clear kryon has a history scoring those kind of tries so yeah they’re going through a period of adjustment as well but the

Dignity they showed the the way Wigan hosted it which was exceptional I’m in the fan Zone beforehand absolutely backed out the pre-match entertainment brilliant the atmosphere around the ground sometimes when you get a big crowd in even for a big game it like 5 minutes of absolute furor and and it

Goes flat a little bit none of that the atmosphere was great throughout um and people who were clearly neutral were there as well it wasn’t 24,000 Wigan fans and 100 from penr that came on a corporate trip there were lots of people there that were there for rugby

League rather than because they were Wigan fans if you just joined us on YouTube You’ve not missed anything but we’ve spoken all about Wigan and penth and now we’re not going to speak about it anymore now we haven’t because we haven’t spoken out the big moment of the

Game the most controversial moment of all time in history of the world J Wen you got the ball down I think you got the ball down I think the tip of the ball touched the line and it must have done because leam Mo saw it that’s why I

Sent it up his own try try try this is the problem with the video referee system James and we’ve been having this discussion on this program I think when did they come in the it’s been in quite a while now so probably for the whole 10 years of this program it’s a rubbish

System the system is up for well I I don’t know there’s there is no perfect system well um there were three tries in the game that all came back to the live call there was one in the first half that no one’s talking about which was

The penith try which to all intents and purposes he he must have grounded a ball but you can’t there is no angle I’ve been looked at all the angles of as we saw there’s no angle that shows it and therefore the video referee has to go

Back to the live call the same happens with the we can try the the ward will try I I actually for what it’s worth I think he does ground the ball on the line but yeah well you would say that James because you’re defending your man

I’m ID inter and you’re true but no I don’t I just I I just give you my opinion as to what I think I I think in the same way that other people think he doesn’t he doesn’t score I think he does score and the reality is neither neither

Side of that argument can ever win because nobody nobody can see on an angle that the ball is or is not and that and that ultimately what you come back to you come back to the live call I think I think where it falls down a

Little bit is that the the last the last decision is that that goes up as live decision no try um and again the video referee tries to find an angle cannot find an angle and therefore he has to come back as in uh insufficient evidence to overturn the live decision and he has

To come back to that that live decision so one can only imagine that Liam Mo had the best view and in his opinion he had scored and that’s ultimately why the live call exists having said that if we didn’t have the live call system I think each of those each of

Those three tries would be awarded as tries because the laws talk about benefit of Doubt to the attack and that’s the old system we had so where where there is no live call to take into account the video referee would revert back to that but you know there were

Plenty of controversial moments with that decision people would say well he didn’t SCAR or he did Scar and you just you know you just you that as a bit of a copout so you you’ll never win the LI the live call is what you would get if

We didn’t have a video referee so all the people saying it’s a disgrace we should have a video referee and it shouldn’t be referred to like okay well Liam Mo would have called that as a no try yeah in the same way that French try would have been given as a try without

The video referee because want a try that was wasn’t cuz it’s not in it’s not in the paper so it didn’t happen so is that now the the best and on trying of the week cuz was I’m sure there was one last year that they said was the best n

Trying then they burnt a player there haven’t they burnt a play that you know that I wonder if that comes back and they reuse that one but How brave to to pull a play like that when you’re at that stage of a of a match that’s that

Clearly is going to go to the last minute to to have the presence of mind to say we’re going to chip over from the scrum I mean having said that that that scrum that field position came from what I believed was an error by the by by Liam he was he

He gave a knock on and and it wasn’t on in my opinion so that’s that’s when as a referee you breathe a side relief we know you’re watching so there you go you’re a wrong you but and the ball Ste the ball the ball steel decision was was

Wrong because the international law as we said in commentary U the inter international law applied and so the drop off and they did drop off they did drop off so had that been on Thursday night Friday night or Sunday afternoon in this in this country then that’s illegal um

But we only had that uh the NRL route rule in for one season and then we we ditched it so there fill points out here why do we have three sets of rules well because the Australians and yeah we but we’ve changed our ourselves and It ultimately comes back

To you know that the IRL doesn’t have the teeth um that it that it in an Ideal World should have and the NRL has the money and has the where wherewith all to just do as they pleas the the argument is that each competition is allowed to adopt local rules that suit the

Conditions of that competition what it’s meant is we’ve got three different sets of rules now who’s going to be brave enough to call the parties around the table and say we’re going with yours we’re going with yours or we’re going a hybrid I don’t know but

Um you have to get the NRL to commit to it because the super league would interesting thing and no doubt we may talk about high tackles we may not may not i’ going to talk about Wayfield hunet ARL FC to come that’s and there was only one high tackle in the world

Club J W um one high tackle penalized in the world chall the um and what a physical game it was by the way and intense throughout and the ball in play I mean again I don’t know what the stat is of that but I’d be very surprised if

It’s not 65% of the time the ball was in play probably more 70% maybe no one who stumbled across BBC 2 on Saturday evening because they want to stumbled across Sky Sports they would have stumbled on BBC too maybe expecting some opera or something some Opera there anti

Roer antiques roer Opera all the things you get on on BBC 2 and there’s some Northern IES and some Australian o playing rubby there they would not have been failed to be impressed by the atmosphere the speed the speed intensity the violence and everything it was it

Will be interesting going back to the head I think will what rules will Australia adopt because they as the contact sport will still be under the same aaces that we are to make sure that it looks like we’re doing something so when the World Cup comes around in 2026

In wherever the World Cup’s going to be play southern hemisphere yeah somewhere in the southern H what what rules will we don’t know what our rules will be by then because they’ve already been tweaked this this week so uh gav says it should be the NFL style Gaby you’re

Going to upset Rowan Smith because he doesn’t like all this have a screen at pits side and let the referee make the choice with more information than his live call it just go forever well I guess it goes on forever now with the video I think there’s an argument on

That that you know um for me all decision making should ideally be made by by the onfield official um but you know if you are a referee trying to view a screen in that corner in that last minute the screen is in the far diagonal corner from Wigan so you’re 120 plus

Away they have another monitor so you’d have to then go as as they doing Football go to monitor so you then got 25,000 people make sure it’s a big pit side monitor not a little one I don’t know in an Ideal World in an Ideal World yes they would have a on

That last Tri that monitor wouldn’t have told you anything it wouldn’t have told him anything different so all it would do it would still bring you back to his live decision which his live decision was no tries he would come back no try in rby Union the you know there was

I saw a try in the France a try in Union surely not well I didn’t think it was a try I thought it was a knock on in the buildup but anyway so it went to the video referee but the way in which they

Sent it up I think in his opinion it was a try then they had to find a reason to overturn it and and I think they have to have conclusive evidence but the referee has a role in that decision so he stands and looks at the big screen but in his

Opinion he couldn’t see a knock on so I think we we went to just enough looks at the last incident for it not to kill the atmosphere dead in the stadium any longer any more angles that holding of breath by all the Wigan fans and the watching television fans would have

Dissipated and and that have been booze and why are we waiting a casual all the other so it was a wonderful occasion penrith were incredibly dignified as we we said earlier they they did not look at any of the incidents in Ivan clear’s his postmatch was nearly 20 minutes he was asked a

Couple of times he could have ventured the fact that they thought they’ve been hard done to he just talked about what a wonderful occasion it was how glad he he was that they’d come over and be part of it um he even asked like everybody’s going to do in in particularly after

This weekend would you have it in Vegas he said you know what we’ve had such a fabulous time here and the atmosphere’s been so good this is where it should be he just every the the other thing which mean means very little but says a lot is

That when Pen’s players and staff came out of the dressing room you know the configuration at Wigan it’s it’s like then a U-turn to get to the bus and the mix zone for the media is where that U-turn is every single one of the players and staff said Thank you to the

Media we hadn’t even interviewed them but that they were so polite then you walk into the area where they’re getting on the bus and some of the corporate people are waiting for things to be signed or have pictures taken every single one of them stopped every one of

Them said thank you very much that they were flying out early the next morning they were so imbued with the the occasion and so respectful of it that it again you you left there thinking you know this rby league one day might catch on yeah that’s what makes you you know

Needs to be involved in in the spot doesn’t it it was fantastic why do we ask Nathan clear if he wants to come and play in Super League desp of fact we know the answer I know I did this with Jonathan th many years ago it was but we

Don’t ask Ivan clear do you want Jon to come and coach in Super League to take over at pfield in a couple weeks controversial I just pick out that in there just pick P out of th air I could have said St Helens I say that’s St hel

I spoke to Paul W last week he’s been M now so what what point do we start talking says gav about European rby league and Australian rby league in the same way we talk about league and Union well it’s been it’s it’s like we said earlier which possibly wasn’t on

YouTube one one of the questions asked of Ivan clear was is the gap narrowing between Super league and the NRL because for the last two years a super league team has won a World Club challenge in the most thrilling and spectacular way and the answer is no we are no closer

But the teams at the top could hold their own against an NRL team in a one-off game I don’t know if they could do it every week at that intensity because we’re not tested at that intensity the problem we’ve got is that until everybody spends the salary cap

And we have more people playing the sport over here so we get first choice of athletes then the gap between the three or four at the top who can put on a display like that and the rest is huge and and it’s no different to 1997 when

We played in a world Club Championship and Australian teams won virtually every game we had we had clubs like Wigan that went over to Canterbury and won which was fantastic with won all their games and didn’t qualify for the quarterfinals but but nothing has changed until we get

A a raising of the standard here which is partly around the ability to every Club to spend the minimum salary cap we can’t match teams in the NR that spend three or four times as much and have a choice of so many people that play the

Game yeah and well that you know the IMG plan as I understand is to go to 14 teams in the super league isn’t it but you know that’s a counter to that argument isn’t it that actually if you reduce a number of teams in Super League to get that intensity by having a

Smaller pool of Super League players of say 18s instead of 12 or 14 then surely you would get a higher level of intensity week in week out how do you then generate fixures you play less games which would again increase the intensity so there must the answer is no

We haven’t closed the Gap but our top teams are very very good well there must be a Magic Warehouse full of rby league players they’re going to be put into this Super League America competition which the which the Australians are stupid enough to think can happen despite the fact that major league rugby

Is obviously a massive well the other big story in the leadup to the world club was the NRL are going to buy Super League yeah that that as well yeah we’re going to move back to Winter no no we not I did manage to ask um the the highest ranking official in the

Rfl um I congratulated him on selling the game to the NRL and and and he said be nice if somebody talked to me about it had a lot of meetings with them recently but you thought somebody might have mentioned it if if I find Su just

Got a load of balls and post protectors and where did we can get them post from going have to twist these things around look you can’t I don’t know if you can see them on YouTube that was they were brilliant that was outstanding there’s definitely an point for having flashing

P we’ve seen those before though we’ve seen them I think they’ve had them in in there NL oh was it in in N yeah we didn’t have them at Wayfield yesterday it was very disappointing no flashy post the flood lights came on and they stayed on so

That was good but no no flashy posts um I think I’ve covered everything Ian did say not Ian balth who’s just joined us but Ian water house did anything happen in the first 10 minutes of the podcast you have to download it and find out we talked about the world

Club challenge it was just bang on as well I thought uh Gary says the wig and try wasn’t a try he was short of the line Gary the Viking well done to you you’re in the next round of the challenge cup witness that’s good good result for them at Bradford um did

Anything else happen at Wigan that we need to talk about apart from Heather small Russell Watson fireworks flashing posts wigam winning uh just it was a wonderful all right all right chicking balti pie balti pie pies meatball mint balls and the world champions We There Matt Pete I

Call him Matt cuz cuz I checked this cuz I thought Matty sounds a bit chummy and also looked on their website before I interviewed him and it they call him Matt so I’m calling him Matt I think he was emotionally and physically drained which some sometimes happens that you expect

The this weekend to come in and be absolutely euphoric and and because they put so much into it and it’s so emotionally draining it’s gone right to the last minute the one thing he said that again I think deflects all arguments about disputed decisions is that he said that had that try been

Given in the last play had Nathan clear kicked the goal which he inevitably would because he’s Nathan clear um he would have been just as proud of his players whether they’d won it or lost it because of the way that they played and the DNA that they’ve gotten the covering

For each other and that’s what they’re all about so um in a way everybody won on Saturday night which is why to see so many people on social media particularly from from Britain oh before robbed so yeah like you what oh anyway I mean you know you can imagine the amount of work

That’s gone in behind the scenes for not just off field but on field and the coaching staff to prepare for that game so I think the challenge is now looking knowing what happened with St Helens last year what’s the effect of that win the interesting thing is I don’t think

It’s the next game so I think if you historically it’s like you’ve still got a bit of adrenaline as he says I looking to see who they play this week they play HF this it’s the game after and interestingly the game after is London away oh there you go

Yeah did we discussed his last we did we looked at that actually to be fair but I think I think the fact that they’ve not traveled to Australia absolutely is a big F and they’ve got a big Squad although you know Cruz leing being injured isn’t isn’t great for them but

Um they could have got Brad Ry on it could have but Lee got there first which I think we did we exclusively reveal on here a couple of weeks ago Brad DWI would be moving to S I can’t remember we had the conversation about wigan’s next pictures last week so that’s

I don’t think I don’t think we do exclusives never done exclusives we had Rob Pon before months before everyone else done Rob but Matt P what what does he do now he’s done everything he’s won everything inside two years tremendous yeah and some of the stories that come

Out around his management style is really interesting um yeah I I was told that he himself has a coach educator yeah and he will go away for two or three days and turn his pH off completely just to be in that environment where he himself is recharging his batteries getting some

New ideas talking with his mentor about some of the things that he thinks might be issues maybe within his realm of coaching and he comes back completely refreshed with with a different perspective or you know a a slightly altered perspective that you know that’s top level management that that’s not

Sports management you know that that is um if that’s a multinational Corporation sending its its high level Executives to to a camp together that that is topof the range stuff so again what what he’s doing and what Wigan are doing to support him it’s it whether you’re a

Wigan fan or not it’s fantastic and the players clearly respect it oh absolutely absolutely said the other week just speaking what about Tyler dpri stat that came out played 11 games for Wigan won three trophies never been on the losing side retire done can’t get any better

Pleas love him um negotiate a new contract now very sorted now um I said the other week after speaking to him I thought had R through but W this man when they spoke to him for five minutes about stuff and it’s partly again because his background is not a

Traditional I played at a very high level I’ve gone into coaching it was I did an English degree we talked about this before that did a proper degree it gives you yeah so so things like poetry are an influence on him and you just think well that cuts it from a slightly

Different cloth and it’s why he is able to have I I think the word is perspective I can’t think of another word he he has a different view on life value the other thing that came out which you probably read in the run-up to the game was that incredibly sadly leam

Marshall’s mother died the week before and Mar Pete just said we’re all going to the funeral we’re all going to dress in our uh Wigan regalia we’re going to respectfully just attend we’re not going to make a big deal that we’re here we’re not going to tell people that we’re here

We’re just going to be there for our mate and we’re all going to be there and they went and you just think when a club does that to that level of detail for for a mate then they’re going to theoretically die for each other out on the pitch aren’t

They which they did the defense was astonishing and again that’s what Ian Ian clearly focused on wigan’s defense not the deficiencies of any referee in decision and they had penrith as we said in in the first bit you have to listen to again on the podcast penry had two

Guilt edged chances that they themselves didn’t take and they would have won the game if they had they last tackle options remind me of lead last at the start of last year they didn’t do short kickoffs and they had a captain they had a they’ve got a captain now I can’t

Can’t get over leads having a captain um I tell you what if if you didn’t watch the Huddersfield St hen game before it Well Done uh cuz that was terrible I watched it I watched it cuz I could watch it and then had to leave having

Finished watching it and I was like God this is boring I just finished me not good because obviously being at wig we didn’t get theing just nothing president and John wilin pitched the commentary perfectly because they never got excited about anything because there wasn’t anything to get excited for so I could

Sit there on my sofa and just have a quick doze although I did think well that that’s the challenge when it’s now a two commentary system a commentator system that there’s just two people to to fill the the answer is one of them has to start

Singing just just just oh just no it’s perfectly it’s awful awful but St Helens must have been impressive impressive to were professional professional that’s that’s the word I was going to use they were just very professional and they they sort of ground the win out in in

Many ways which at this time of the year yeah is what teams he got a a good couple of tries actually a nice couple of tries um I think Wells story was good for memory but I can’t remember much about it just kind of it was on the

Telly and it happened in front of me but I can’t really tell you much more about it 6,812 people there though so you know they enjoyed it and 1500 of those are from St hel yeah the home of the World Champ not home of the world champions

They’re have to take all those barriers all those signs down because Michael Smith lost the darts as well so it’s just bad times for for St Helens even though they are top of Super League after two two weeks yeah well done well done St Helens um oh G come on wilin couldn’t sound

Excited if we were sitting on Elric fence he’s always excited on the Telly was trying to demonstrate tackles on Jamie Jones be K the other day he was excited at half time of the warington game bill says you can’t wait for Gus Gold’s podcast he’ll be fuming he’s

Blocked us on Twitter so we won’t be listening well was he here he should have been here on his way to Las Vegas shouldn’t he um decent Crown turned up at London 5,000 I believe says Kevin yes what’s he say in the paper 5,102 highest CR since

2010 and clearly a lot of new people and against a team that don’t bring away fans understandably that’s not criticism of Catal who played brilliantly um that is something to build on that that’s another positive that I’m told I I saw I was switching between the two games when

We had when we had the incident inci um tend to stick more with a bit of Warrington and Hull but was it five times um Catan were held out by the London defense and the crowd really got behind that because they could see that that level of again energy and intent

And uh uh togetherness I think fans go back if they can see their team performing that way Mike Eckles is is is a massive asset for them everything he says if you don’t sell people we’re going to win every game and it’s going to be great and you know it’s going to

Be tough we’re going to battle if you battle then people will get me own I mean certainly you know the next home game is going to be home to Wigan isn’t it so interesting game at Hull on Sunday as well because got players Hull have had another three band today Tony Smith

Playing scw who’s on their uh who’s on their coaching staff Jason Davidson I’m not sure he’s got pedig but Sims get well he can get the boots on not Scott because he won’t kick it out and he’s at leads anyway willand to win a game this year says Ian and the

Answer is yes because I think Wayfield will lose a game at some point this year so if Whitefield will lose a game in their Championship which I think they need to to win then London will win a game because they they’ll always win a game someone will always there’ll be a

Week when they they’ll play somebody who takes them a little bit too lightly and they’ll turn them over but I just think London are moving in the right direction they’ve they’ve got clearly a spirit about them they know that effectively their fate is sealed for this year it’s

Not stop you know it’s easy when you know you’re going to get relegated to not make that tackle to stop Catalan scoring on on the post when it’s already 28 nil that that’s something that you can’t buy that’s a very precious commodity so they they’ll be fine they

They may well even knock off two or three wins there’ll be somebody’s who’s playing them the week before the challenge cup that’s in the final that will send a slightly lesser side and they’ll get tur so we de talking about W wian until last or just talk about it

Now won Hull you mean won Hull sorry so because wton play Wigan all the time um so whatever audio Hull would have won that’s what everyone on the Internet is saying all the hull fans are saying who would have won if the player hadn’t been sent off and despite the fact they lost

By 26 points to one inton now I remember Hall the week before against Hawkinson rers and they were rubbish so they were slightly better this week I slightly is a bit unfair they were better this week they looked much better competitive but I think there was more in that

Performance for H fans to take out of them the week before for sure I mean I know they are obviously massively disrupt depleted uh team but they showed spirit in their performance you know and yeah okay a lot it ended up with it blew out late on yeah you know the the

Incident with the with the card but you know that as we talked about last week that doesn’t directly that’s not the single determining factor in the result it’s an influence in in in potentially the out it could have been six all at halftime without that because they wouldn’t have

Kicked the penalty and then it would have been 13 men against 13 the likelihood is it would have been a closer result but I think we’d seen enough to know that Warrington we’re going to win that game there’s almost they didn’t determine the out there’s almost nothing to talk about with the

Instance and I’m going to fur to it forever as if it’s some kind of major terrible thing that happened just because everything’s Chang now this is the advantage of doing a program on a Monday rather than a Sunday MRP is out everyone’s happy about something else

But as it turns out I only have one question which again my leared friend will be in the best position to answer I’m not sure if I am well certainly more than we are it’s camplan of the Bailey now this where I put it to you yes the

Briefing we went to um about how the games are going to be refereed this season about the um sanctioning plan about the various categories you need to go to to decide an incident I thought that new Brown would have been yellow carded because we were quite clearly told by Robert Hicks that

It’s the responsibility of the tackler to not get their head in an area where it comes into contact with the ball carrier whether that’s intentional or not that that was going to be how it was going to be sanctioned so I thought well clearly whether he meant to do it or not

Benur is had his eyebrows split open there’s clearly been contact with a head video review shows that it’s come from new Brown’s head oh get a sin bin it because that’s the the framework we’re playing under the bit I didn’t understand was when it comes back to Marcus Griffith on field that it’s

Forceful and there is no mitigation because that puts the onfield referee in an ABS Ely impossible position but why would whoever viewed that have thought that clearly there was no mitigation and it should be deemed forceful and all we could see was there was a slight turn of Ben Curry In The

Tackle new Browns sort of got his head up yet he doesn’t try to adjust why was that coming from the video referee and that’s a rhetorical question because you don’t the video referee there’s a couple things in that one in terms of where one would assume

And I don’t know because I’ve not heard the audio but one would assume that that wording has come from the video referee because that’s appears to what have have happened in round one and round two of the incidents we’ve seen so far that the the player is brought out by the referee

And he and he sort of reels off a list which is whether something is direct or otherwise whether it’s forceful or otherwise high level low level of force whether it’s uh any mitigation or a aggravating factors and it’s kind of what we discussed last week and that must have come from the video

Referee is my opinion um but the main question I have and I don’t have the answer is what is the framework that he being worked to we talked about it last week and that was me making observations of those interactions between a referee and a player who’s about to be dismissed

Or yellow carded as to a possible framework that that they’re working to but I still think with the press release that’s been brought out today and Robert’s words on that that it it refers to a a head head contact framework but what what is the framework where is the

Framework can we see the framework now if it’s there and it’s on the rfl website then then great but let’s have a link to it and maybe I should go and have a look on the website maybe have not found it I don’t know what I’m

Trying to say is I think you need to have transparency and so everybody’s aware of what that framework is as opposed to trying to work out what the framework is that’s not to say by the way that ultimately I felt it was a wrong decision on the night I didn’t

Think was a sending off and and they always in my view there was always going to be a statement to be released following that game whether that was the day after probably not because of the world challenge it’s followed on the Monday and I think you know I won’t use

That no I was going to use the phrase common sense um what is common sense yeah exactly for more details example search U the Rugby League website oh I’m trying to do that but I’ve I’ve broken it and also found the Whistleblower form so I’m going to dub in all media people

At well maybe I need to go away and do that and if that’s the case I thought it it was a mistake from on high there was nothing on field that indicated that that should have been the outcome and the examples I’ve seen on head contact

And by the way head- onhe head contact was always going to be the most controversial of any incident and we haven’t seen one in round one we got well we did but it was wasn’t noticed on the field there was a ban in round one I

Think it was Tom Ammon I think from Lee was banned for a head- onhe head contact now that example on that game was the the kind of example that I’ve seen um I understand has been shown to sort of referees and clubs and players where it’s an initial impact yeah where the

Defender is stood in an upright position against a defend a ball carrying in an upright position and their heads Clash immediately and there’s no adjustment no and that’s why it’s led to a tweak in the interpretation on the head on the head uh contact framework rightly so

That they’re now saying if it is initial contact that’s what will be sanctioned new Brown wasn’t on initial contact there was contact but it didn’t come initially so he would argue whether he’ Tred to avoid contact and he did and it was only the circumstances of the tackle

That ended up where his head met I think the other thing that Tony Smith said in the aftermath that I hadn’t considered but needs to be a mitigating factor is the state of the pitches with the greatest respect to groundsman or women who were doing a fantastic job in

Horrendously wet conditions but if you can’t plant your feet that’s a mitigating circumstance that the tackler is occasionally going to get in the wrong position it is it is I don’t think new Brown slipped into that particular tackle but that’s not written in the framework either that a

Mitigating um Factor might be you can’t change your there’s probably and maybe he said oh yeah I could see that I was getting close to the guy’s head but I couldn’t move move because my feet were encased in mud but again I would ask is

It is it in the framework cuz I don’t know I’ve not seen the framework that’s what I’m that’s a point and trying to make it might be in the framework I I don’t think conditions are no but we talk about dropping of height and being a mitigation for a ball carrier if a

Ball carrier drops in height we talked about it last week with de pre didn’t we ball carrier drops in height then that’s mitigation yeah but what about mitigation the other way where as you rightly say if a Defender slips and dramatically slips into contact then it’s inevitable that there’s going to

Probably be an outcome off off the back of that there were a couple of incidents this week and and we must say last week 13 players got charged this week I think it’s six so again I know and we’ve had one last game so that needs to be taken

Into account and the hfield in hel’s game barely a penalty in that game for high tackles or anything there were there were a couple of things one is London have had no cards no disciplinary issues London have conceded more points and the more defend than any team in

Super League say they probably miss more tackles than other teams but I’m not I’m not trying to be but you’re right you make a fair point defend proba more than if you thought that there was going to be a team at the top of the sanctions list you would think it would probably

Be the team that’s making the most tackles conceding the most points doing the most defense would be tiring more than other teams because they’re not used to playing at that level and intensity and they’ve been so far squeaky clean I think the only issue I would have um

Is we’re seeing some head contact that isn’t being picked up so in that whole Warrington game Liam sutliffe is quite rightly denied a try because the defender gets under him but he’s been hit round the head as he tries to ground the ball so to me I was expecting no tried penalty to

Hull but we didn’t get that head contact now again you’re you are going to miss some but that’s one that the video referees looked at well again why did we not go back and say clearly you’re right he’s held up but check the head contact I mean bluntly the the two incidents on

That game in relation to tries were a mess actually um that should have ended up in a penalty but it comes back to the video referee protocols in that the video referee can only intervene on incidents that Merit either a red or a yellow card and now ideally what should

Have happened on the field was ideally when it’s referred the referee will say look I’m I’m checking for a try and my live decision is no try if it is no try I’m going to come back for a penalty for a high tackle which actually could have

Been yellow carded yeah and I think having said all that even though it wasn’t it wasn’t referred on field I think again there has to be a process in place whereby that is identified somehow and we end up with the right outcome the right outcome should have been a penalty

In my opinion for contact with the head now whether that’s taken further that’s a different that’s a different question but for me it should have been at least a penalty and I think the other thing about players need to take an element of responsibility in all this which is

Something that that you’ve said is when Matty Ashton makes the break that led to the Penalty try Tex Hoy has all of him to aim at and he aims at the head you know that’s what players need to I’m not I’m not saying you know just having to

Go at Techo I’m just saying that when players are in that position they’re initial Instinct has to be to go lower um and again because it was a penalty try was probably the double Jeffy reason why Hoy didn’t get but but he but he should have

Been yeah I me to be honest as a tackle technique I never tackled anybody so you know it’s not not for me to teach it the the combined tackle count of the three of us is zero I wouldn’t have said that going up high necessarily in that position will always reap the rewards

Yeah you’ll want to probably get ball and all and Tackle wouldn’t you and throw him into touch but he doesn’t necessarily need to go that high clearly the first impact wasn’t high was it it it was shouldering up so you know but I think you’ve got to aim lower in the

Current ERA yeah but I don’t disagree but you know the tackle height uh ruling has not come in and won’t come in until next year so um but it you know it it probably it wasn’t identified on field was it because a penalty was being given

For a late challenge um we then end up with a video referral rather inexplicably which I can only assume was because the referee viewed it on the on the screen and we ended up with a referral it was all a little bit of a mess to be honest um let’s see what

Happens after the big meeting between the players and who is the captain of sford but is it the 12 captains that are meeting or just 12 random Mobil or are we having 12 Representatives meeting the rfl on Wednesday and 12 captains under their own steam meeting on Thursday I

Mean we don’t know who from the rfl is going to be on this Zoom call but I hope they say to him are you going to stop cheating then and failing injury and laying down longer than you should be and you know all that kind of thing I

Hope they do it be quite funny why have we got this Theory now that players previous disciplinary shouldn’t be taken into account when they go to the disciplinar it should and there’s a there’s now a conspiracy if you go to court for any civil offense it’s taken into

Account at the Rugby Football League there is a conspiracy at the match review panel against Michael malorum and Liam Watson I can’t believe it that these two gentlemen who fine upstanding indiv ual that they are apart when they on the think Michael M was a bit upset that the

Catalan fans didn’t start a go fun page for his F tell you what you know you can do whatever you want with your money I buy rubbish I mean this I’ve had this year so that’s okay but I got to sign French wheelchair rag shirt now what we’re going to do with

That but but I you know but at least I’ve got a tangible item there as opposed to paying someone’s fine who was naughty yeah I the only thing I would say on last week’s charges that then releas related to the disciplinary the following night is that there were a

Number of downgrades weren’t there which under undermines well you know look there’s a process and they’re independent of each other and so what it shows is that they are independent of each other but what it also shows to me is that there is there is uncertainty around the application of the framework

Because you’ve got differing outcomes from Monday to Tuesday and there will be occasions where that happens but there were quite a number of downgrades so you know the work that will have gone in gone on in the offseason between the disciplinary the match review panel and the match officials it’s not it’s not

Quite working at the moment I think there were always going to be issues in the first few weeks of the Season like there is every season it is and and I and I do hope in the next few weeks it will settle down so well I think the

Players will become more averse to what they’re actually being penalized for um and again you’d have to do a compar if you could really be bothered between the number of penalties in each round as to whether it’s getting less or not but the feeling is just by watching it that

There there were less incidents in round two than there were in round one which is illustrated by there are less people in front of the beak this week yeah and I think that’s fair so there’s got that’s part of the adjustment period for everybody do we brackets the media have

A responsibility not to glorify things by having counts of cards week by week and saying look how many people been sent off this week I have a lot of time for Brian Carney and I think virtually everything Brian Carney says is from a point of absolute reason and can be justified I thought

That both he and John wilin went a little bit over the top at halftime in the he’s never comeing on this podcast saying that the game was having an existential crisis and I think that’s where the media sometimes needs to take a step back and say right let’s explain

The context around which this decision is made and then let’s just talk about whether we think it’s the right decision but if if you’re going to stand on the touch line at halftime and basically say the game is in crisis because a decision is wrong in it

Shouldn’t have been a red card then I think you’re setting the the whole um almost agenda for how people are going to react to that which is one of the reasons we had the media briefing and and John wilin very kindly provided the pastries for leing he there that I’ve

Never seen so you know I get that they’re upset by the decision but I think we also have to be a little bit responsible in the current climate about saying we can see why a decision is being made we don’t understand we we don’t think this one is right well I but

If you start talking about the game’s gone then all of the people think the game’s gone I’ve got I don’t think they use that phrase which is existen the game G language isn’t it spell it yeah I I I think so frustrated weren’t they were frustrated it was in the moment in that

You appreciate it wasn’t they had a little bit of time to think about what they were going to say but I think we we just have to be careful about how we contextualize all of this at the moment while it settles down we go back a few

Years I don’t know how many years now I I was video Referee on the game that probably led to the change when we were issuing a lot of yellow and red cards in the early part of the season I think it was wig against Castleford can’t remember the Castleford player now but I

Recommend Castleford again yeah I I recommend Sim to Chris Kendall I think was the referee and I I thought I was doing the right thing in accordance with our protocols and and interpretations only to be told the following week know it was wrong the wrong thing so you know

At that point in that season we then we did an about turn as referees and we and we sort of backed down as it were I don’t think we’ll see a backing down backing down on head contct there will be no backing down here there’s been a

Tweak made on on this particular thing and and rightly so um I which actually reflects well on the sport that it can make that change well I think so and I think the cleaning up of the play the ball is starting to work as well that more players are actually being seen to

Make the effort to stand up and play it correctly definitely and those who don’t are getting penalized for it and they can protest as much as they like but most of them it’s a it’s a failure of technique yeah well we talked about that last week you know you can change habits

And you can change some habits quickly and that that for me for one having seen quite a lot of games now that has almost dried up overnight really um now that that relies on referees to stay on it and not back off on it or not miss the

Odd one where it occurs but you know as far as I can see the players are really sort of bought into that and I I think we are seeing some benefits because I think the Rooks are generally tidier yeah I think the balls in play more and

That’s that can only be good so we’re not going to start playing touch and pass in a couple years as people keep saying I’m not having TIG and pass that’s no one calls it that only wrong people call it but we don’t have any choice that’s the other thing but also

The the the game will evolve the way in which the game will be played will probably slightly change and I think I think there were comments made over the weekend I don’t know which coach it was that was sort of saying actually we might end up with a more open free

Flowing game up the r as the weather gets better we will you know we’re reducing tackle height or whatever or we we’re penalizing certainly this season The Tackle height a little bit perhaps stronger and stuff that we might see return to you know doy half plays Etc

Whatever offloads and all that so you know the game will change you know we’ve had period I know we haven’t talked about the Castleford sford game yet but there was a lot of offloading in that game probably more than we’ve seen in games at this time of the year when you

Know the pitch was was firmer but but both two teams that wanted to play um a progressive style of rugby league that promotes the ball and the new laws help them to do that and it’s a much better spectacle for the newal just like certain CLE tiger forwards haven’t learned from their previous

Indiscretions C Tiger’s Administration having sent the wrong Bits of Paper to the IMG Pap this week what what happened what CU I was at w I just saw a tweet and I don’t know what happened apparently they submitted a team sheet that had a player on they officially

Submitted a team sheet that had a player on it who was wrongly on there so they submitted a second team sheet with that player removed and the one that they wanted to be playing in there instead and that cost them an interchange yeah it would do purely an administrative

Error but but it could have been a costly one as they apparently they only use seven interchanges anyway but you don’t know what would have happened if they’ve had the E don’t forget to uh support the castle Tigers fans in there go fundme to support the administration errors and get a new

Computer um G says uh it’s more that we were told that gr means four games P gets an up hell grd he that gets GR that gets three games was there some something on the the website is wrong or something oh there was lots of tweets about

This You’ the the operational rules that were on the website I don’t whe they’ve been updated over the weekend but the operational rules that were on there from 2023 so there was some confusion there around the the a go fund me to get the rfl a new laptop so I can put the

Right PDF up that’s going on there the other thing I would say is that we’ve had players charged at sort of grades D’s and C’s and D’s and and they getting two and three matches that have been simed and that that to me doesn’t seem quite right getting banned for two or

Three games that would suggest to me anyway from the outside looking in that that player should have been sent off well this is what Paul’s saying should we go to the reunion style thing of a yellow card can be upgraded while they’re off the field again I I quite

Like that idea because people I think we mentioned it again last week we talk about continuity and decision taking too long we talked about the movi decision I got it right this week you did been practicing um no we talked about that decision taking too long uh and that’s

Not what we want so there is an argument for it but it’s not a perfect system either because the coaches will say well hang on a minute I don’t know whether that play is coming back and so I don’t know whether who I’m going to replace

With that person or you know Etc so you know there’s never a perfect system I mean it’s only taken uh what 30 odd years from R to put names on the backs of shirts so when we see the wizzy gold post at twick them in 20 47 or something

Look forward to that hopefully it’ll have been destroyed by them um DAV not happy because the Wigan players did not parade the cup around the ground um but the pan players were busy taking well we were rushing down to the Press area to get the words of wisdom

From Ian clear so I didn’t did see the I assume it was a Wigan fan getting escorted off by security behind Ryan Carney although he was he’s a professional he was looking straight the camera the two Sams were straight looking to see what was going on but I

Wouldn’t run anywhere near s just aam Tomkins In fairness and he’s only little um so sford won 2622 really entertaining game enjoyed it I I was I was trying to watch it but then weld started scoring more points and stuff so had to pay attention so so

That was good um hul Le spoken about that game um Ash Shanley is like he’s like the mat laia of Rabil in terms of he’s going to have a whole try of the month campaign to himself but without the conspiracies years to outdo himself every week that I mean

Hulk played really well on the night they are going to be challenging at the top we knew that um but how great to see a team that’s prepared to kick on their own quarter Cross Field um and then a Winger that’s prepared to back them themselves that that again was a

Highlight moment of what was a very entertaining game in in difficult conditions um I think we’ve seen the disciplinary on the back of that is that James Donaldson’s got two games and Samus only three subject to appeal so should Donson have got more games because he’s no Don I think Donaldson’s

Record is pretty I know just because people are saying that that was worse than what he had both of his feet off the floor when he made contact UM the this only one I haven’t seen reviewed but I suspect Leeds will challenge the grading and it’ll probably

Be downgraded by a game because that seems to be what happens at the moment um but no it was really entertaining uh two teams who I think look better than they did last year um defensive Spirit about leads which they didn’t have last year um and jez Litton

Deserves special praise for a Monumental 80-minute performance at at Hooker for hul and kicked five goals including one off the Touch line so yeah it was it was another great night where both sets of supporters could come away thinking I’m looking forward to what the season holds

For us now so I forgot it was Thursday and I forgot there was a match on thday Friday then whatever this week There’s No th probably turn it on on Thursday it’s match it’s Saturday this week okay right oh well you’ll have to text me and

Remind me why is it on Saturday this I was like oh there’s a game on it’ll be scar shed as I would imagine so I turned it on and then Steven came in the room was like we’re not watching this so it it got it got subbed for The Apprentice

Oh that’s terrible now that’s rubbish now I waited until Friday to it was Dreadful in the name of marital bliss I I obliged so I didn’t really see much did you not know it was LE and hul what I would say just on the on the on the

Match because people still get confused on this both players got charged grade D yeah they both got charged with the same thing yeah unless on his record is worse yeah the only that’s the reason why it ends up three matches and not you know two so I think the um the other great

Thing to come out of that was the atmosphere Again full credit to I mean we we knew that the hul fans would turn up um virtual sellout very emotional before the game with the tributes to Rob Crossland um but the game matched that passion off the field and I thought for

A round two match uh it was it was really entertaining pretty high quality see there were clearly some mistakes because it was a very very muddy pitch but I say it was it was it was a great event I didn’t even mind getting back late on a Thursday night and thinking it

Was no no w w well I I had to come back by York so I didn’t go on the m62 I didn’t have to I could have dropped somebody at the side of the m62 but I didn’t um did anything else happen in Super League there anything else happen

In super from people signing for next year which I’m not not interested which is probably still happening but Dr is off to Lee because I don’t know Pap AR mate is’s injured it’s not good but they Tak him out me fantasy team and everything gav say satday is a

Long day for rugby I’m planning on watching the Vegas games and the last doesn’t kick off until 4:30 a.m. well the first one kicks off about 2:00 a.m. I think so that is going to be a long day if you’re watching all of them the two Super League games after kind a

Sleep after that can you before leads Catans and then sford versus I haven’t decided yet whether to stay up for the Vegas games or record them and watch them as live but it’s going to be fascinating absolutely 35,000 tickets sold they already yeah a big game on s’s W field Barrow in

The 1895 cup at the home of rby League I think it kicks off at two they’ put three in the paper I’m sure it’s a 2:00 kick off I’ve got a feel I might be the only person there in the media box I think py radio [ __ ] will be they’re

Always there on that’s good they can find Paul C after the game so I can steal their wiy um so there’s nothing else happen in Super League challenge cup it was the fourth round um Batley I have to say I saw a wonderful game last night the mighty

Swinton against I should have won my swi I’ve got Swinton sh I should have worn it today wait next week and whilst de Patton got the official player of the match award and he did have an extremely influential game not least with his lastage tackling against much bigger

People Lewis Hall for Swinton was absolutely magnificent and they won they did 2812 and Jake speding scored as good a TR good as Ash Hamley I mean that would be a surprise against uh money bangs Olden well I don’t Swinton are the division of I know they are but I think

Alen made the most awful start they were 14 points down in as many minutes and two of the both tries came from mistakes but in terms of a real good oldfashioned local Derby in the cup with everything on the line and again uh I don’t know what the official crowd was uh

746 the three teams that gave their attendance sounded a lot more um and the coverage was was was great and a thoroughly enjoyable way to to end the weekend yeah only they W for gave tendences this week in the challenge cup I’ve got no idea why and Martin Keller

Was delighted afterwards it should be they’re famous celebrity fan as uh Alan kilaw knows about now uh Batley beat rdale 30 points to 14 witness won at Brandford 26 that’s a big result for witness especially with their uh Shenanigans I saw probably the last half an hour of that very very committed

Defensive performance from witness they see at least one witness three saying now we’ve got to do it on a wider pitch that’s that’s the problem for them you can keep it tight yeah Ma 50 hammmer Hammer Smith four uh Keithley 14 feon 58 Wayfield 78 hunslet six on AR LFC again

We got to got to sort this out six all though wasn’t it uh yeah I know 6’4 to was it 64 six they got an interception try um yeah wait for did what they had to do yor aor 32 W brown 28 and York 16 Sheffield 32 that sounds like an

Interesting game yes was it York down to 11 players something like that and it was all the referees for not the players all the referees um I kept reading on social media where are they where’s the m here I know there’s one cuz I’ve seen it somewhere um Sim one two

Three four simins three simins and a red card and uh a simin for uh Sheffield as well well if you got three simins and a red card to one siming that would suggest it’s a problem with your discipline rather than the referees but I don’t think I’ll tell Andrew Henderson

That next time I see him so it’s Halifax against your K yes so Halifax again get the Community Club at home uh wh is battley which should be interesting that will be a good game featherston Whitefield y the tie the round would and Swinson Sheffield I mean the fascinating

Thing is now if Wakefield beat Barrow on Saturday and if on Sunday Bradford beats Swinton which is not a given obviously now is that wayfields fix then go Bradford Bradford featherson featherson or something like that oh no they wouldn’t cu the 1895 semi-finals AR until June or something sorry but he’s

Interesting that the 1895 quarterfinals involves Bradford against Swinton and Sheffield against badley yeah so you know again the teams that are fighting for Wembley on two fres on the challenge cup I can’t remember this last year but it obviously was but almost seem such a small round isn’t it it’s because they

Need to get down to four clubs to add to the 12 Super League clubs yeah which again everybody’s complaining about but actually is a similar principle to the FA Cup that the Premier League teams don’t come in until the lower league teams have had the chance

To play each other we’ve got to realize that these competitions only matter by the time you get to the final and the rest of it is all irrelevant because people don’t pay to go watch them or whatever so unfortunately the magic of the cup doesn’t exist and he doesn’t

Exist in the FA Cup either it’s just a complete myth of a Time long gone interesting to see old old them at York as well in the 1895 cup because if Olden Olden were always more likely to get to Wembley through the 18095 and they were through the challenge cup and

They’ve learned a salutary lesson I think that’ll do all them a good good War I would think I would think so so that’s shaping up to be a great great competition this year as well the women’s transcript kicks off at half 11 or something this year yes is it 11:45

Or and there are preseason games even though we’re sort of in the season yeah well one one certainly delayed testimonial for Greg I don’t know why Lee leopard’s reserves gets on the back page of paper and say the women’s friend is this week don’t I suspect that workington White Haven is

To give the matches because we’re still what three weeks away from the start season Super League this week St Helen’s Lee on Friday along with warington Cass Wigan that be interesting with Lee having had a week off yeah see how they come back that’s the TV game Saturday

Leeds versus no the sky sky game Sky game and sford versus Hulk car is on after which could be very entertaining and Sunday you’ve got hfc versus London Broncos which will be intriguing uh they’re all on sky and some are on super league plus well they’re all on super league plus Su summer

Delayed not on the BC though this week so there’s no no no chance on that on that on the BBC so there’s quite a number of games that won’t be on TV as it were traditional TV they’ll be online over they put the rubbish games on I

Play we got got to put versus Catan on we stick it on the I player but that is but that partly is how people consume their media these days you know I found Alm Swinton last night it was on YouTube on the Sportsman it was it be interesed

To see the numbers on those games versus the numbers yeah that are you on PBC and it’ be interesting to see if we’re getting any closer to the championship being televised because we would promis that that would be decided before the season kicked off and it’s what two

Weeks away well there’s no there hasn’t been any 1895 anywhere has there I think on the Sportsman so far and our league seems to have been as it gone for a burton as no it’s still there but exist it I know it exist but they haven’t shown I think there’ll be some women’s

Challenge Cup games on there tell you what’s confusing if you’re going into the back page back everything as you get older apart from apart from the letters be where people still think that no one the everyone who’s ever won the Harry sundland trophy has been forgotten out

They don’t exist yeah that’s right could you bring your trophy back please we want to M who won it last year don’t know no one won it last year no one the year before whatever apart from that which is a complete nonsense series he got the results in in the back bit of

Amateur leagues that only involved with Community sorry well why is it not Huns crl episode it should be women’s results challenge cup but it’s not the challenge cup it’s the other challenge cup so why if we got two challenge cups I know no one cares I know I mean I

Care but I know no one cares but I just think we’re in a good place at the moment and yes we should always hold account there there was some we didn’t hold people account yeah there was some comments on social media and thank you to everybody who does comment

On stuff um saying that sometimes we might be a bit too positive and we were supposed to be too negative that’s why I’ve not got work in the past but I do think that and I still got getting any work we’re in a good position to capitalize

Whether we can new Brown getting s do change anything no I think bubble cares is that an element of people’s frustration though that because the game appears to be in a better place in a good place that the foul players detract him from that and but it’s AR

It’s more talking points and the more people talk about rugby league the more it Trends the more the people that aren’t within our bubble talking exactly about the Nuance or otherwise of a new Brown tackle is saying when’s that be le on because I hear that everybody’s

Talking about it I’ve got to have at least have a look like when East senders was PR everyone talking about it Rabil everyone’s talking about it have you seen that reunion try that they’re calling the greatest try ever where a bloke hurdles over an injured player who’s being treated on the field that’s

Not good sportsmanship is it that’s the kind of thing they pull us up for we’ve got to stop comparing ourselves um I think you’re right we’re not here to cheerlead the sport I think we we’re here to accentuate it if it is positive but hold it to account if it isn’t

Thought we said that we had we used to do two different types of proog at the same time on Mondays on radio Yorkshire we would very much be ws and all and talk about everything and on a Wednesday on talk sport 2 we would very much be

Promoting what was coming up and be positive because you talking to different audiences people who watch this program and listen to this program know exactly what’s going on I I just think it’s quite ironic that the more the people go on social media and say the game is Dead the more people are

Watching it and it clearly isn’t dead and the other thing is at Wigan I was approached by a couple of people who said that love the podcast which was absolutely fantastic of them and clearly it’s since James joined obviously they did did they have white sticks I mean

You can have a wh stick and listen to a podcast that’s so good they didn’t have to come over um I’d never met them before they weren’t relatives excellent and they said they said we love the we’re on the back of the bus AR we like

Jody boy Ward and I I thank them for for doing that because we’re just here to chat well glad you enjoy it any what we’re going to chat about next week what’s going to happen this week well hopefully there’s something equally as controversial next week and then we’ve

Got something to talk about I’m joking I’m joking I think might I think by virtue of the fact that there always is like a referee’s WhatsApp group you can go in well there were there were many different whatsapps but I left that when I when I resigned is a question for you

Because I I meant to ask this at the start of the program I for you know when to player against Sim right you do the 10 minutes thing there’s a yellow card and then is that just so you get more time on the tell cuz you you don’t need do that and

That don’t know I don’t why some referees do the do the sort of signal as it were it’s just yeah we I remember Stuart cumings ordering some new kit one year that I said he said what do you think I it looks good there’s no pocket on the

Shots so I don’t know what we’re going to do about that but obviously the NRL they don’t use cards so it’s a very English thing isn’t it like football you know getting a card out and showing a card but um performative nonsense I mean if I’m sure if you look on Twitter or

YouTube there’ll be some great clips of Mike Dean and the and the no look card you know where he brandishes it uh Paul throw in the uh final grenade plays Union will it happen already has but it was interesting to read that having said well you think what they’ve been more

Upset about players not being paid by Toronto that apparently that’s still going on and hasn’t been sorted so but to repeat players have been involved and and are still involved in the proc and will be involved this week so they have been involved they haven’t probably consulted every individual player but

You know well that’s what they want is it look what happened when Man of Steel was down to overun someone voted for both of them and we are on Rocky biscuits this week so spons by Bley foxes we’re supporting you don’t forget um if you are a player and you’re upset about

What’s going on in rby League when they put a tweet out with Ashley scoring a great try or the T from field on Saturday night retweet those as well CU that you know that it’s all of benefit to you de players don’t listen to this

Do no I wouldn’t I see Rob Hicks has deserted and his appearing on a rival podcast there are no rival podcasts Phil only inferior ones who who had him first