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Or Google play the listen audio app everywhere you are it’s time for to the Lost drop podcast with Liam delcom and Brandon Nell [Applause] Welcome back guys this is to the last drop I’m Brendan n and with me as always is Liam delcom Liam uh hopefully everything good and you haven’t been bombed out by all the lightning in the last couple of days uh yeah there was kind a violent one yesterday I was busy
Working and then uh once or twice I had to sort of just stop and just turn slowly and look out the window just to see if um the Suburban neighborhood the way I know it is still you know still intact yeah my whole thing is if you see
Animals going past two by two then you must start freaking out so yeah yeah with us today we got a very special guest an old old friend of ours we haven’t seen him for quite a while uh Matt mararo who’s nowadays uh Matt how do I describe you maybe you should
Describe yourself for us and what your role is at the moment well officially I’m the international media advisor for Japan rugby league one which basically means talking to people like your good selves and and generating media opportunities because obviously Japan’s been a closed area for a long time but
They’re starting to open up now it interested me you’re talking about the lightning because Japan has that problem too they had a game a couple of weeks ago C uh canel Midstream because of a lightning lightning outbreak and and that that does happen over there a
Little bit yeah we seem to have these violent High Fel thunderstorms as I’m sure you probably remember from your time yeah yeah um and yeah we uh we’ve had a couple of them in the last week uh so so yeah we’ all been sort of like
Ducking for cover the whole time but we should perhaps also just give our our listeners just add to what Matt said earlier I mean he is well let’s not say is but he used to be an esteemed journalist in in New Zealand did a lot of good work out of Christ Church um
Used to rub our noses in it you know as the Crusaders set about um on their crusading ways uh then was also W’s media manager for a while uh so yeah Matt is a man who’s well traveled and um uh certainly seasoned journalist and and somebody who knows the landscape better
Than most very nice of you lamb very nice of you but we were always very pleasant at the Crusaders very humble people oh yeah oh yeah as for the wallabies not not sure I can say the same it’s quite funny I was I was on one of the New Zealand radio stations the
Other night and uh and they they were saying are we missing Super Rugby and we said well you know what we missed the kiwis and I said to them we really we enjoy playing you guys enjoy chatting to you guys all the time uh but not so much
The Aussies we don’t miss the Aussie does so yeah yeah it was it was a complicated competition I actually personally think you guys have got the best of it what you’re doing now um because I think the World Cup probably was a bit misleading in terms of where the power of the game
Really is and Super Rugby struggling and you’re seeing seeing that a little bit with a lot of the players leaving particularly to Japan um and yeah it its problem is just competitiveness um because it’s dominated by a couple of teams and the fact that uh you know the level of
Interest is is dwindling because um yeah it’s the same old same old every year and uh and the crowds are not so great as a result um and the and the the physicality I think that that was there when the All Blacks played or the New Zealand teams were playing you guys uh
Is a lot different to Australia they’re not such physical games and probably the intensity is not the same I remember talking to Richie mcco when I was with the Wes and we were talking about um Super Rugby and he said that um because back then there were just there was talk
About you guys leaving and he said that they would hate you guys leaving because you guys provided the physicality that Australia doesn’t and they worried that um or he was worried that if South Africa went its own way would impact on the All Blacks in terms of lack of
Ability to to uh com combat the intensity and I think we saw that um probably not quite so in the World Cup final but certainly that game at Twickenham I was I was there for that and that was that was quite scary to be honest watching just how how much you
Guys destroyed the All Blacks up front um and yeah you know those those attributes got you through the World Cup as well um and that didn’t surprise me is that a topic in New Zealand that’s uh that’s taboo the fact it’s the African no longer plays in Super Rugby um and
The fact that you know New Zealand Rugby May in the long run uh it may be detrimental to them not having you know the spring box or not the spring box necessarily but our Super Rugby teams around yeah I think definitely um it it sort of started the show over time
Obviously with the All Blacks probably losing their Aura a bit um I mean the World Cup get making the final and and obviously there was a bit of winging about the final but that’s usual for new zealanders when things don’t go their way um I think there was a feeling going into
That World Cup that just the lack of physicality um and the lack of the regular exposure to that could could compromise the team and I I think to be honest it did a little bit you know if you look at if you look at the all black performance overall on that tour they
Played the three best teams in the world um in in terms of yourselves uh France and Ireland and they so they played four games against those teams twice against and they only won one of them and I think that was probably more a reflection of where they’re at than the
Fact that they they made the final you know they had a very nice draw they really only the only top side they they beat in the tournament was Ireland and that was a fantastic performance and an Foster didn’t get the credit he should have got for that because they actually
Attacked irand at their strength so their set piece in particular and um their lineup and you know that was a brave move but it it worked for them and they played really well in that game but as I say the other three games against sides in the top three they lost which I
Think was a more accurate indication of where they really at you know number four was probably a fair ranking for them so so maybe just to give a segue back to Japan uh try to scare us back because we could probably talk all that spring box the whole day um but doubt
But to uh to give that there’s some talk about um some future in terms of J the Japanese clubs sort of other joining sort of some sort of competition with the Super Rugby guys um you close to the fire is that just talk at the moment
Well yeah I think I think this weekend with these crossborder games as a start while they’re only trial games for the New Zealand sides the Chiefs and the blues are both in Japan at the moment and they’re going to play two games each against the top four sides from League
One from last year and the Japanese are certainly hoping that that’s the start of something um they appreciate that it’s trial games for the New Zealand teams and so they’re playing under trial conditions with I think both both teams will have 27 players and they can run
Them on and off and I suspect the Japanese sides will probably rest some of their International stars because it’s not a competition game for them um but they’re certainly hoping that that’s the start and there’s no doubt that Super Rugby needs a a boost um and Japan are sitting there their Club
Competition’s only going to get stronger it’s get a lot stronger now than it was a couple of years ago and you saw that with the performance of the Japanese based players in the spring box at the World Cup up not only did it not compromise them it probably enhanced
Them because they had a lighter schedule going into the international sides and the and the clubs well as an example this weekend it’s not a competition game so the clubs are going to rest some of their Internationals I know for example that chesin kby is not playing I
Actually think he might be back in South Africa at the moment because they’ve got a bit of a break um so that’s the sort of thing that that benefits Japan it’s not just about money the competition’s a lot stronger now and the teams are a lot stronger I think this weekend I’m not
Sure yet of the lineups but if if if Panasonic um my old boss Robbie Deans is the coach there if they P play their top team they they’ll give the Chiefs a real run in fact I’d probably expect them to win that if they play their top team but
I’m not sure what Robbie’s thoughts are on that but those teams would certainly be competitive um and the more Japan plays the more they’re exposed to International sides the the better they’ll get just as Argentina did yeah I was getting to ask you about the the league because a while back it
Relaunched after the 2019 World Cup at some point there was the big relaunch and now the Japanese rugby league one is is the one in existence um has that been a big shift as as the needle moved sufficiently U you know for the officials in Japan uh it’s still a work
In progress they’re into their third season um last year they clicked over over a million people through the gates for the first two seasons which which was a pretty good effort given that it was a new competition and of Co in the first season they lost a lot of games
That were canceled they also got 42,000 to the uh final between the Wild kns and and Kabota France lud team and that you know you compare that to other finals around it’s not bad it’s not a bad crowd and in the first first two weeks of um
The season this this season going they the games were played at the same time as the European Cup games and the Japanese crowds were on a level they were on the same level so that shows the interest there and the clubs are also League one was designed to allow the
Clubs a little bit more control so they do their own marketing now they they are looking to really engage with their communities a couple of clubs even move bases so that they could represent a particular area as well as their corporate um status and that seems to be
Working pretty well um the the long-term goal is for the clubs to be semi-independent of their corporate backers so only 50% reliant on the companies that’s of them they’re still a we way off that um and obviously the League’s idea is to gain in momentum so that the teams can play internationally
And and the league continues to attract top players um top coaches and and certainly we’re seeing that um like this year this season for example Wayne Pac who won the six nations with Wales and Karen Crowley who the World Cup notwithstanding did a pretty good job with Italy they’ve both arrived to take
Teams Robbie’s been up there forever and he’s obviously been a huge successful coach uh France probably doesn’t get the credit he deserves for everything he’s achieved and he won won the title this last year so he’s there Todd blackader who did a very very good job with the
Crusaders he’s up there and there’s quite quite a few others so it’s it’s attracting the top coaches it’s certainly starting to attract the top players um and it can only continue to uh grow I would suspect particularly with the financial state of the game and other other countries had Hadley Park
Said to me who played for Wales um when he was at Panasonic just through the co era and clubs were going bankrupt and he said well if you have a choice would you want to play for a club owned by a businessman whose business could go
Under at any moment or play for a club owned by Panasonic who have got over 100,000 employees and aren’t going to go busted anytime soon so you’ve got total job security and that is certainly something I think a lot more players are looking at and we’re seeing um not so
Much First Choice England players but there’s a lot of guys coming to their end of their careers in the Premiership who are heading out to Japan um and doing pretty well um and and certainly some of them are showing that they could probably still be picked by their test
Sides uh the the the perceptions around Japanese rugby because obviously part of your job is to to promote it um what are the challenges there still I mean if obviously people would have had a view of of rugby in Japan before the World Cup in 2019 and maybe a different one
After that as as has that shifted at all I mean do you still fight the old fights well I think it’s it’s we’re making improvements I mean in my work as as you know because you’ve been involved we’re starting to get traction now I mean three years ago you couldn’t have gone
On the websites and found what happened in Japan rugby the last weekend and and you know know the teams a bit better and the players a bit better so we’re certainly getting traction there with with all the rugby websites with the material we put out I think countries
Are starting to look step up their involvement with Japan both New Zealand and Australian Union signed memorandum of understanding with the Japanese Rugby Union last year and these crossborder Club games this weekend are are part of that um and obviously it’ll mean more Internationals as well both the All
Blacks and the Mari All Blacks will play in Japan this year um the wbes I think are looking to to build their their involvement and that’s great for Japanese rugby as a whole because like Argentina in the rugby championship that regular exposure to those top teams will
Help grow umy probably as much the belief in the players as anything else because I think at the moment they just don’t believe when it matters but they’re now playing in a competition with a lot more top international players who they’re learning from both on and off the field and the more
Exposure they get to these top sides like Argentina at some point they’ll crack it they’ll beat beat an all black side or beat England or some and they’ll be away that this new group players will be away of course the random Factor at the moment is Eddie Jones and and what
He does in terms of his coaching in terms of his selection and as usual with Eddie how long he lasts I was about to ask is he still in [Laughter] Japan yeah look look he’s well respected up there and I think that um I mean I
Felt a bit sorry for France who did apply for that job um but you know the Japanese love Edie for what he did in 2019 um you know they’re hoping that the side started to flag a bit under Jamie and I think they the players were just
Tired of Jamie that had him for eight years and you can only hear the same voice for so long so I think that um you know they’re ready to they’re ready for a new voice and obviously the jrf you are hoping that Eddie will bring back
That um that stability and and take them to the next level again um the cattle is certainly there the playing Talent is definitely there um and hopefully over the next couple of weekends that’ll be showning those cross border games although they are trial games so some of
The top Japanese players may not play either M Matthew I just want to come back to what you were saying earlier about the the financial situation there because obviously you know in South Africa the Japanese league is seen as quite quite a cash car on on probably on
Par with the the French top 14 at the moment um and whereas other leagues are as you know as you mentioned are going through um some some significant challenges um in terms of that uh is long-term Financial if you say the crowds are coming in I take it it means
That the the financial future of the the league with these big the big money they pay players is sustainable because I think that’s the big worry I suppose for any leue yes well I think that the um there’s no doubt that the the finances
Help um you know we know that um if you go there you’re going to be you’re going to be stable supported um but also the standard is rising so so you go for the coaching you go for the uh for the the level of competition yeah no definitely
I mean uh and just in terms of I just want to bring France shame because as you say he doesn’t get as much credit for a guy who’s won two Super Rugby titles and and now the Japanese league as well um yeah he’s he sort of very
Goes under the radar a lot of the times but um it sounds like he’s he’s built up quite a team there um in Japan at the moment and doing pretty well for himself yeah well he he took on a club that that had started to struggle and he he built
Them up as you say and and they won the title this last season and that was the first title kuboo had ever won so that was a hugely significant moment for that side um they’ve started a bit slowly this season probably a bit of a hangover
But they they’re starting to get a bit of momentum now but yeah I mean he’s a capable coach I mean Brandon you obviously know him exceedingly well from his time at the balls he’s a very genuine guy um he He commands the respect of the players and and you know
The players want play for him they want to succeed for him and we’ve seen that with Kabota he’s also the sort of guy that gives his senior players uh the opportunity to lead he um you know he understands that they’ve got to play the game so he he gives them the opportunity
And and allows their heavily inputed he’s very very similar to my old boss Robbie Deans in that um that department and it’s no coincidence that they’ve both been so successful um and and yeah I mean I would love to see him get International job at some point I don’t
Know him well but I know enough from the players that have spoken to me that that have been coached by him and you know Japan was a great opportunity the jfu decided to go the other way but who knows I mean you know he’s I don’t think
He’s going anywhere I think he’s going to continue coaching there and hopefully the opportunity will open up if not in Japan somewhere else I know a lot lot of um you know F focus and attention is on the the World Cup winning spring box from a South African point of view when
They in front in in Japan um but but other players have sort of you raised their head or raised their profile that we might not see that you’ve seen uh maybe some of them yeah yeah there’s a a young kid pretorius a center that’s playing for um France team that’s that’s
Uh doing pretty well Brendan vent’s young Fell’s arrived in Japan so it’s a great experience for him um and then there’s a few others that um probably there’s skull Rasmus who’s a hooker who’s doing doing pretty well over there and then there’s a few that have ended
Up playing for Japan you know Peter’s La laaskar is one and Gard Vanden he is another and they’re probably guys that have got away because they’ve proven with Japan that they that they’re up to it um and that they can succeed internationally um and then obviously you’ve got the Internationals and um a
Couple of them have broken in or three of them have broken in recent times which is probably a concern for Russi um maybe just just such a workload that they’ve had contributed there but um you know guys like faf Clerk and Jessy creel are enjoying Japan and obviously they
They send the word back to others that it’s a good place to go and I think that’s one of the reasons why the number of South African players heading to Japan is is steadily increasing you’re with Liam delcom and Brendon Nell on the to the last drop podcast Matt something you said earlier
I rather pick my interest when you mentioned how clubs uh are looking to sort of unhitch their wagon gradually from the big corporations uh is there not a is the climate right for that because uh if you look at the pitfalls elsewhere in the global economy um to take that seems
Like quite a brave step does does does Japan’s rugby infrastructure is it strong enough to uh you know sustain those clubs with less investment from the from the corporations well that’s basically the million dooll question that the next few years are going to tell us so the the the um competition
Itself Rugby League 1 which is a separate body from the uh jfu they deliberately set it up separately it’s uh it’s corporate supports pretty good and it’s and it’s growing um you know the co crisis came at the completely wrong time for them because it meant
They couldn’t build on the um the Rugby World Cup but they’re starting to get that now the clubs are starting I think most of the clubs are sort of at 25% of their of their incomes coming from Beyond the corporate sponsor um that’ll continually build as as the profile of
The uh the game in Japan builds again having the All Blacks and the Mari all blacks and England up there this year is going to help um so it’s and the more work the clubs do in the community the communities the more that will grow as well but they have the advantage that
Say that you know the stormers and the Bulls and Leicester and and um you know Claremont don’t have and that they’ve got a corporate backer so that they’re always going to be secure regardless of whether the um the money’s being put in by their own commercial success or by
The by the corporate sponsor it doesn’t appear that any of the corporations are likely to bail on on League one so you know it’s a lot easier when you’ve got that security and that’s what the players are looking at and that’s where the League’s at as well um you know it
Knows that um these clubs are going to continue the league the league itself is very very fortunate that its chairman uh G tasan he is one of the most successful businessmen in Japan so he’s very very well known he’s on the same level as all the the heads of the corporations not
Sort of the general manager the of the Rugby Club he’s he’s talking to the boss of sanuri for example the boss of Toba and those relationships certainly certainly help um I mean I don’t know of another another rugby body in the world that’s got someone of that success at
Business level um as chairman um and that’s a massive advantage that that the leagues had and that’s already showing too in the the support of the clubs and the the the uh security that the league has as a result I gon to say some some
Of the some of the uh bosses from other rugby unions will probably tell you on that level even though they might not be but let’s not go there go down a rabbit hole if we do that one well the great the great thing about gen is he’s so humble you’d never
Know you’d never know his background and he just loves the game um so it’s it’s it’s been great dealing with him it’s I mean I’ve dealt with rugby administrators all over the world and I’ve certainly never dealt with someone like gen before and the Chief Operating
Officer hajim shoi is a lovely guy as well they’re very very genuine they’re very um they encourage I mean it’s almost like what the players have they’ve encouraged me to do whatever I can do to promote the game there’s no you must do this you must do that with
Them they’ve said well you know what you’re doing that’s why we want you uh go for it and and that’s what’s what we’ve done and um like I said they I can see why Jin has been or G has been so successful as a businessman given given
His attitude and how he encourages his his staff it of us to to not ask you about um sorry Brendon uh about the the rality between South Africa and New Zealand it seems that the the spark is back after you know a couple of a good couple of years where all blacks
Basically ruled the r but it looks like the Rivalry is back and it’s proper um and this year obviously a big year because uh the All Blacks play two tests in South Africa um and it would seem uh there will be some involvement if if the
Rumor m is to be believed there’ll be uh you know some potential All Blacks involvement or former All Blacks involvement in the South African you know setup um is that something that enthuses you is it something that that surprises you and how do you think this
This will play out well I think we can claim J Tony Brown as Japanese can’t we I mean he’s been involved in the Japanese national team for the last eight years so so we’ll say he’s a Japanese product not a New Zealand one yeah I think with the Rivalry I think I
Think you know famili it’s the old saying isn’t it familiarity breeds contempt and and it just got a bit boring um so I think the fact that the spring box have won the World Cup the fact that the All Blacks have a new coach and obviously Razer whom I’ve
Worked with is uh as a private person he’s the same as everything you see he’s very much an extrovert um he loves the game and uh and the players react he he really connects with the Millennials they love it so um so we’ll see how that
Works at test level because it is a different lot of pressures there’s a lot more peripheral stuff off the field that he’s going to be dealing with he’s already struck it a little bit with his call for New Zealand to pick International Players which internationally based players which
Hasn’t gone down well um but yeah that’ll bring a spark an added spark to it um I think you know going to South Africa for two games is just about the ultimate test um so that’ll be a massive test for him in his first year um but I
Think the fact that they’re playing less is going to help uh bring that rivalry back to where where it should be there were rumors that the unions were looking at tours as well so you know the box would come over and play the Super Rugby
Teams as well as the All Blacks and and vice versa I think that’s a great idea that would be fantastic if we could do that um because I I remember the days of um I mean I I was there in 94 I think it was when otaro beat the box to get the
Springb head and that was just unbelievable you know that was that were those were great times and and we need to try and get that back to engage a new generation of um fans and um and you know we need to do things differently to do that and that’s why Japan’s so
Important and that’s why there needs to be more creativity I think among the national unions to uh to make that happen um but you know they’re talking about it so hopefully hopefully there’s something in the in the in the wind down the track I mean there’s a lot of talk
About this test Nations League that’s coming up as well and obviously Japan’s name is being mentioned there but I mean there are some worries I mean as you say we do need a better structure than I suppose what’s being suggested at the moment it’s all all very well if you’re
In but for all those countries that sort of fall out the top um it becomes rather you difficult to to to maintain that sort of um level of competition especially if you don’t have a league like Japan has for instance um what’s what’s the reaction being there to the
Test League there in Japan um well I think there’s a bit of excitement around the possibilities for the the brave blossoms with that uh I mean they’re just after any inter International exposure they can get whether it be at Club level or for the national team um
Like I said the appointment of Eddie indicates they just think that he might be able to take them to the next level again and um again regular exposure for the brave blossoms is only going to make them better they they’ll crack it they’ll they will beat a top tier team
Or or a team ranked above them I’d prefer to say than top tier um and then once they do that I think they’ll be away because in the last few years they’ve been getting close with without managing to nail it I mean if you look
At the World Cup they were right in the England game until the the the ball the soccer header which gave England a lucky try and that that blew the game open likewise against Argentina they went TI fortat in one of the best pull games of the tournament but just couldn’t finish
It off and we’d seen that earlier with game games against France when they hosted France and got close the the All Blacks a couple of years ago same thing got close were well and truly in that game but just couldn’t push through so for Japan the Nations league and the
Proposed World Club Championship are both brilliant they’re absolutely perfect for what they need but I hear you with the other countries my personal view is that the World Cup itself should be two- TI um like they used to do the junior tournaments um the under 19s when
They had that tournament and the like with promotion relegations so you keep that aspect of Jeopardy um till the end but also so that you have even match UPS right through I mean I don’t think the All Blacks beating Namibia by 80 points offers a lot um and you know the
Argument that the teams need to be exposed to the top tier I accept that but maybe do that in the pre-tour tournament games so rather than the All Blacks playing South Africa they have to play Namibia or or um you know someone else like that perhaps there’s a
Structure in place where the the teams that are in the top division have to play two warm-up games against the teams in the second division so those lower teams are still getting um opportunities to play against the top teams but once the World Cup itself starts they’re
Playing at the level they should be at rather than being exposed to these teams that are just creating mismatches and I did a bit of an exercise out of curiosity um around the competitiveness of the of the last tournament compared to all the previous ones because they’ve
Been a lot of talk about it being the most competitive um and it wasn’t um I looked at I used for a mismatch um 30 points plus so if a game was won by 30 points or more by by a team then I declared that a mismatch and there were
More of those in the last tournament than there had been since 2003 um so that says to me that it’s actually not getting more competitive it’s getting less competitive so we need to come up with a formula that’s going to work better um and to me a two- tied
System is the way to go um promotion relegation so you carry that Jeopardy right through to the end um and it means if you finish last and you’ll pull in the top division then you’ve got to play promotion relegation and those games would go on at the same time as the uh
Quarterfinals semi-finals and final and it gives TV more games it gives the hosts more games so you know from a financial perspective it can probably make more money well games with meaning all the way through absolutely all the way through yeah I take your point there the
This is not meant as a curveball but if you look down the track um say 3 years uh in terms of global standing what would what do you think will’ll be bigger the Japan national team or do you think the Japan rugby league W um well
That’s hard to hard to assist Liam I think the national team will always take preeminence and certainly if if the national team can start beating those top teams because at the moment they have an international vehicle that League one doesn’t yet have um I mean these crossb games this weekend and next
Weekend are a great start but they’re not a formal competition and so they’ll be played pretty much as trial games I think once the world Club Championship comes into being and that has to happen at some point and the Japanese clubs go into that and start doing well start
Surprising I think then the the league one profile will grow a lot further as a result of that but for now it’s probably always going to be the brave blossoms and to be honest that’s as it should be um you know I mean mean Super Rugby would never overtake the All Blacks in
Terms of the profile of New Zealand Rugby likewise the United rugby Championship with the spring box while winning the United rugby Championship would be a hell of an achievement for a side it doesn’t quite match the spring box winning the World Cup yeah um I see
I see we’re going to back close it off a bit um but M last question for me um just uh I see that the league one is now on ESPN out here Africa um how’s the response been there have you guys seen any figures yet is is it getting some
Eyeballs uh we haven’t seen any figures yet well I certainly haven’t but based on the number of um comments on websites coming out of South Africa and and um the fact that more stuff’s being reported in the South African media and certainly on the South African rugby
Websites that to me is a good indicator that it is being watched um and I think it was really important to get League one into more markets it’s been shown in New Zealand as well um and it’s been Shan on rug the rugby pass website if
You’re a member of that you can watch the games through there and that’s a big bonus and as people get see the game see the teams they get more interested as a result the South African sprinkle right through the competition so there’s certainly plenty plenty there for for
Viewers in Africa to watch and obviously they know the big name all blacks and the and the Wes as well so it creates a level of Interest more more Global and um yeah the the hope would be that at the next rights round even more
Countries want to take it take it up but that will depend on the stars that are there certainly if more English players for example go then there’ll be more interest in the UK about playing Japan rugby league one on on on their services yeah Matt thanks so much uh
This has been wonderful uh thanks for sharing so generously uh I think our our listeners um know a lot more now about the what rugby set up in Japan than they did maybe before this program uh so so thank you for for your effort and and doing so at fairly short notice Hey
Listen thanks a lot for the opportunity guys it’s um it’s really good to see you both again and and to catch up I’m sure we’ll get the chance to do it more informally down the track but as always thanks very much for your support of the league we really appreciate it and uh
Yeah good to see you both keep well thanks mat it’s been good we’ll chat to you soon that’s it for us today uh thanks for joining us uh we’ll catch you guys next week thanks for listening and a reminder you can find all the to the last drop
Podcasts on the Brendan Nell YouTube channel iono.fm Spotify player.fm pocketcasts Google podcasts and iTunes or wherever you find your favorite podcasts
1 Comment
Dont need neither aussies or kiwis. Better off without them.