Mark Immelman, golf broadcaster, interviews founder of The Fried Egg — Andy Johnson
______________________
ABOUT THE EPISODE:
Andy Johnson is the founder of The Fried Egg newsletter, golf blog and podcast. He has quickly become one of the more respected voices in golf and he joins #OntheMark to talk about Golf Course Design, his philosophy on Design, and Course Management for better golf.
Andy shares his favorite courses, both on a budget and not on a budget, to play. He talks about his likes and dislikes in Course Design and setup.
With regard to better Course Management, Mindset and Decision-making Andy addresses and elaborates on the following:
The Mindset of Playing Par 5’s as Par 4’s and vice versa, Understanding the Design of the Hole and Playing with the Correct Mentality, Making Golf Fun, Turning Disadvantages into Advantages, Playing Outside of the “Book”, Conservative Approaches, and Understanding the “Pulse” on Your Game.
STREAMING: On the Mark is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Google Podcasts and wherever else you listen to podcasts.
ABOUT ON THE MARK: Mark’s knowledge, insight and experience have made him a sought-after mind on the PGA and European tours. Through his career, he has taught and/or consulted to various Major Champions, PGA Tour winners and global Tour professionals such as: Larry Mize, Loren Roberts, Louis Oosthuizen, Patton Kizzire, Trevor Immelman, Charl Schwartzel, Scott Brown, Andrew Georgiou and Rourke can der Spuy. His golf teaching experience and anecdotal storytelling broadcasting style makes him a popular host for golf outings.
SOCIAL MEDIA
– Follow Mark on Twitter: https://twitter.com/mark_immelman
– Follow Mark on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mark_immelman/
– Follow Mark on Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/markimmelman…
– Follow On the Mark Podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/OntheMarkRadio
WEBSITE: Read top-notch golf content from Mark at https://markimmelman.com
______________________
#golf #MarkImmelman #PGA #PGATour #juniorgolf #golfpro #golftip #golfcoach
I’m jacked really to have our next guest on the show it’s Andy Johnson from the frieday egg and Andy I’ve been a fan from a long way away for a long long time so it’s great to have you welcome to my show Mark uh pleasure is all mine excited to
Uh courses and strategy and maybe a little bit of PGA toour but uh real honor to be on the show uh the honor is all mine okay for the folks around the world because we are Global um tell tell them a little bit about you because I don’t think everyone
Who is not in the United States might not be aware of the fried egg although all of our us fans I mean they’re all patrons and fans I would think but tell us about you yeah I um I don’t know I I I’m a golf fan who started a golf media
Company about eight years ago and uh it it started as a newsletter and then became a newsletter website and podcast and uh now we we kind of operate the same way we have two podcasts the freg uh and the shotgun start and then we have uh a newsletter that goes out three
Times a week that covers kind of everything going on in golf uh that’s free and then we have a website where we write where we you know post a lot of Articles to uh the fried egg.com so uh it’s a you know I started when I started
It I wanted a easy way for busy professionals to stay in touch with the game because that’s what I found myself um as someone working outside of golf it was just kind of sometimes hard to stay uh engaged with the with the game and uh and we you know I kind of started
Something that I thought would uh would make following golf a lot more fun for people with uh with jobs so that’s the the premise of it and really what we what we cover is what are the people you know myself and the people that work
With me uh are en enjoy engulf so it’s kind of a pursuit of different niches and and one of those is Golf Course architecture and courses okay you’re a parent and I’m appreciative you wake up early for us um you’re a parent of two podcasts I know you shouldn’t have
Favorites do you and if so which one I just I think it just depends on on what you’re interested in right um I think the shotgun starts kind of a a more um you know it’s a it’s a look at the PGA Tour and everything going on in the
Current events of golf and then fried the fried egg podcast is more of like kind of your deep dive exploration podcast yeah uh that covers a wide range of topics you know there’s we’ve done 40 plus episodes of interviews with Tom do um arguably the greatest living
Architect um to you know um my co-host on that podcast Garrett Morrison has done a few like uh documentary series podcasts on like the evolution of the golf ball and stuff like that so it just depends what you’re looking for if you’re looking to kind of dig deeper
Into into the game and and different um areas of the game uh the fried egg is probably is is a really you know interesting show and then if you’re if you just love all the drama that’s going on in professional golf and and you want you know just a lot of uh sometimes
Unserious banter and then some serious banter about what’s going on then the shotgun starts for you I would say our on theark tribe is kind of more the former uh they yet to improve themselves but a little levity folks is not a bad deal especially in the days in which we
Currently find ourselves here in 2023 um you you talked about how this came about the inspiration for it I mean you described the easy way for busy people to stay in touch with the game I mean a podcast is you know a lot of folks try
It few folks make a success of it fewer make money out of it and it’s a labor of love so what was the inspiration for this um you know to be completely honest uh with the podcast I was uh a podcast fan um I mean my my last job it was in
Tech media so I was I was work for a company that covered the tech world and I was you know we wrote about companies and what they were doing and I you know I came into my boss’s office and you know 2014 or so and I said hey we we really
Need to get a podcast at the time I was listening to Bill Simmons um non-stop who’s like you know kind of like the Godfather of podcasting so and she said you know what what would we ever do a podcast on and I said oh we we’d cover you know entrepreneurs and and talk
About you know talk about their journey and how they built their companies she said nobody listens to podcast I you know I was at the at the time I lived in the city of Chicago and you know I had I had a 40 minute commute with on public transportation you know
I’d walk to the L get on the L go to the office walk to the office right and every morning that that that trip was you know Bill Simmons Zack low like listening to podcast so when you know it was like a very um you know when when we
Did the newsletter you know you you start small and and the newsletter was what I could handle while I was working another job right and I could do three times a three times a week and the website was a natural extension but then you know you get done with like the
First episode was like after the Masters I think it was um was it 2015 2016 2016 Masters and it’s like you want a form that you can just kind of talk about things and I think that’s the beauty of of podcast is the it it offers you more
Uh room to explore topics than an article like you know if you wanted to take everything covered in yeah if you took everything that was in a podcast and put it into article it would be you know 15 20,000 words it’d be just insane
So the the depth that you can go in a podcast I think that’s what what really um makes podcasts stand out and the ones that are are really successful the key is depth being able to go deep because if you can’t go deep you can’t cover um
You know a lot of it keep it interesting for 40 minutes right and I think that’s where the the you know I always tell people is like you need to understand like if if you’re if you want to start a podcast you need to understand what what subject matter you
Want to cover and you want to be very authentically you don’t try and mimic anybody else because if you’re you you can go deep on anything right true I if you’re authentic to yourself everybody has has interests and stuff and that’s where your podcast should kind of rest
Is the the things that you can talk about forever well I can talk about golf instruction and golf forever I want to read you a quote um by you in a recent blog and folks who haven’t checked out the Fred egg you you want to go and do this I
Just want to find the quote here real fast um because it’s a great place for real golf people to go and this is on the Friday and I’m going to read back to you your own words Andy unless this was Garrett um you say I think it’s you like
In other words everyone is taking this too seriously there’s no such a thing as an authoritative list on the world’s greatest courses there are just millions of golfers all with unique tastes quirks biases and conflicts of interest and then you go on and it’s basically an article about one or other Magazine’s
Um top 100 list of golf courses which is kind of like your expertise expertise I would figure and so I love the way that you would package that to say look folks let’s just get real about this stop tossing mud across the Twitter aisle at each other and and let’s just you know
Call the Spade the Spade so with that there I I want to ask you what’s your philosophy on Golf Course design I mean you were a caddy from what I understand back in the day you love the game if you were to design a course what would your
Philosophy be yeah so that was Garrett um but I I share a lot of Garrett’s beliefs on on the subject of ranking courses um I think you know in terms of golf courses design it’s it’s my favorite courses are the ones that Embrace kind of their location like if
You want to just start from the very scratch like what makes a place special yeah is that it’s a place that that feels like a unique place so you want like to me that’s kind of generally where why people really like and we were in this trend where the natural golf
Courses have really taken a hold and I’m not saying that you can’t create create a place I think there are some really great examples of golf courses that were created but when you work with the natural land the natural site that you start with you immediately get something
Unique because just like a golf shot like something I think about with golf shots all the time and what makes golf so amazing is that you never ever hit the same shot in your life twice yeah right there’s always something different the Li’s different the wind’s different
Like you you never hit the same shot two times in your life in golf and that might be one of the reasons that it’s like the most alluring captivating and enthralling game in the world right but with golf courses if you have a golf course that Embraces the unique features of the land
That the golf course is on it’s very you know there’s no other piece of property no other 200 Acres that’s exactly the same right MH unless maybe maybe it’s a just a dead flat field which if it’s a dead flat field you’re going to create and that’s where like some creativity
From the architecture comes in right so I think like right from the get-go The Architects that are are doing the best work are the ones that are finding the most unique features of land and finding way different ways to use the land so like this is I think the
Course that most people are most familiar with is Augusta National because of the m right M if you think about Augusta National there are these hubs of activity these interesting areas of the golf course that the golf course V visits really frequently so one to think
Of is like the first one you really encounter is the second green so it’s kind of down in the low and then there’s kind of a ridge behind it and you have the second green the 8 the third green the third T the seventh green and and
That area is just this little Hub of activity and I interrupt you for a second yeah keep that thought in mind for what it’s worth folks and I know you probably don’t care if you put a gun to my head I would say to you the second hole is my
Favorite hole in the golf course and my favorite view is the one from up in the Fairway to the right of the two Fairway Bankers looking down over the green it’s just it opens up in front of you almost more so than when you just walk onto the
Premisis the first time and you look down the Hills and you can see 18 you can’t really see 18 green cuz of the humps and Hollows but nine green and looking down into the valley but that view from a top two Fairway is it’s it’s a picture worthy moment it’s an
Incredible incredible spot and that shot into that green is so so enthralling to watch right it’s just one of the most fun shots you I mean if you you one of the one of Master’s tip as as a as a press like you know press is you know
You’re usually you’re usually inside the ropes at the Masters you’re not so you have to kind of rely on different methods and in a little unknown you know not really well-known aspect of the Masters is people put their chairs down but if people aren’t sitting in the
Chairs it’s like the the I guess the culture is sit in the chairs if you want and then whoever’s chair is they’ll just come up tap you on your shoulder and go so like one of the best and this is my recommendation to like almost everybody the best places to sit during a
Tournament round or a practice round go just sit right in one of those chairs behind two green and watch shots come in and it I mean it’s so fun especially if you catch it on like Sunday with that Sunday pin where they can kind of boomerang it back there I mean it is
It’s incredible so anyways Augusta is just this what makes the Roars everybody talks about the Roars right oh they’re incredible they they echo through the the the um the golf course well what makes the Roars is that there are these concent there are these concentrations of areas of Interest
Right where they have these you know Pockets where there’s multiple greens multiple te’s that generate the Roars so that is a example of a golf course where alisar McKenzie when he laid it out he found the most interesting places on that land and he put as many greens and
Tea boxes and features as he Poss could around those areas so really it’s working with the land and I think that’s one of the things that stands out about the old school golf courses and everybody like why are why are golf courses so good from the 1920s and 30s
And there’s no reason they should be so good but one of the reasons is is that they they had less tools they couldn’t move all the Earth they wanted right so when you can’t move the Earth you you know it’s this idea that like constraints if you constrain an artist
It it’ll it’ll yield tons of creativity so when you can’t move Earth what you have to do is you have to work a little harder to find the ways to work with land and Augusta National is a is a very severe site it it it would not be
An easy Golf Course to build a worldclass golf course because of the severity of it it you know but because of the lack of tools at at their hand they found a really unique way to route and build a golf course there so then it begs the question I guess uh what about
Because I find it fascinating you know as an announcer I get to walk these places I haven’t played very many of them um but I get to walk these places and see the best at their best play them and then I love to just you know I don’t
Troll Twitter but X but I read and it fascinates me that everyone has an opinion you’re entitled to it but a lot of the folks are just watching it off television and they really don’t know what they’re talking about so I have two courses I want your take on the first is
The greatest meeting of Earth and sea um as quoted you know way back in the day yeah Pebble Beach beach it’s freaking Majestic talk about working with the land and the Sea what’s your take there uh I mean you talk about some of the most stunning golf holes in the world
And I think what goes a little bit under talked about you know it’s obviously I mean the oceans right there and everybody talks about the cliffs and the ocean I think one of the things about Pebble Beach that makes it such a such a great test of golf is the the topography
Like the small micro movements on the ground so it Pebble like it’s not like a flat like land into the cliff The Cliffs are so big that it kind of obscures that the land’s really moving and then the architecture pairs with it well um in a
Lot of cases a good example would be like the ninth hole where that Fairway is very sloped it’s flatter on the right side but on the right side there’s an ocean so it’s hard to get over to the right side but if you have any um you
Know any aspirations of making a birdie you know you’re you really need to get over to that right right half of the Fairway to get at any pin on the left like the ball just as you know like you watch guys hit it into the left pin it
Just shoots right just one bunker on that green yeah and it is not very big and it is perfectly placed for the person who takes the the the safety off the teed on the left hand side so it’s like a perfect example of understanding um hazards and like I always laugh like it’s
Like I I know they they moved the Fairway in on six right yeah um and I I disagree with that I I disagree with a lot of some of the maintenance aspects of of uh of pebble and how it’s being presented now so they moved the Fairway
In on six and their explanation was like well we saw that balls weren’t going into the ocean and it’s like well imagine that like somebody doesn’t want to hit their ball into the Pacific Ocean like so everybody’s hitting it left like the ocean’s doing its job
Because the if you hit it on the right side of six then you have the best angle you have the flattest lie you have the best angle to approach that green the ball will kind of like Corral in if you’re approaching that green which like one of the cool things about that is
That elevation makes the ball really Chase in because that you’re lowering the trajectory the ball’s coming in on so the ball there runs in and everything from that right side all the features whether I I’m not sure there’s those two rails you know those two little bumpers
That run up I don’t know if they created it or it was there but they’re amazing features because that kind of corals a ball it gives a huge advantage to anybody that’s hitting a low chasing shot from the right half of the Fairway so it’s like you know this explanation
Of like we brought the rough in because nobody was hitting it over there it’s like or well like maybe nobody’s hitting it over there because they don’t want to hit it in the ocean I wish every time I go there every year I’m fortunate I wish that now I
Understand why they cut the rough on that big left hand Bank down yeah for spectators I wish they grow that stuff up because I watch the modern day player just step up there on the te and just bludgeon the thing as hard as they possibly can in the left if they get a
Break they’re fine if not they just kind of play it out and hit the a wedge for the next one I mean that’s that’s a whole if you want to talk about holes that have like drastically changed because of distance and however whatever your stance is on how we got to where we
Got with how far players hit this is a perfect example of a hole that has dramatically changed because of you know the proliferation of of the vast majority of the PGA Tour hitting the ball over 300 yards right uh if you’re hitting the ball 280 yards there’s no
Way you’re going to hit it into that left rough and and be able to get it up and onto the green right like if you hit it 320 though that play is is the smart play it’s the only way to play the hole right so this is an example of like if
You reain distance back that hole gets way more compelling because the best way to get to the green is to hit it at the ocean right if you want to get if you want to make an eagle you’re going to have to take on
You know to put a you know try and and maybe you just move your target 10 yards right of where you know it seems like the guy’s just hit it at the bunker yep right now exactly right yeah and if they block it it’s in the Fairway if they
Pull it it’s in the rough and they’re okay with that right versus you know if that distances rain back in hitting it left doesn’t guarantee you’re even going to get it over that hill right like that’s the thing is that Hill has become a foregone conclusion that you’re going
To get it over that was a fascinating thing to watch with the women out there this year is that that hill was like a men like some some of the women were getting home and two but if you didn’t hit the Fairway it was it was a hard
Task to get over the hill so you know I you know this is a this is that is like one of the greatest holes in the world and a lot of it is just because it’s like oh my God I have to go from here to
There but but it’s it’s a good 90 feet uphill it’s it’s a long way up there too but the back half of it is like when if golf is scaled in terms and what I mean by scaled like the distances that players are hitting it is scaled to the
1985 version of golf everything on that hole is placed in the perfect spot right like if you don’t hit in the Fairway that Hill you have to hit a extraordinary shot to get over the hill and if you don’t get over the hill then it becomes an incredibly hard hole to
Make a five on but if you get over the hill you know if you’re on the green or around the green it’s a very easy four so like that all a sudden you know you see how that disparity of of of shots and and scores really increases when you
Have features that matter yeah I love it it looks like you’re gently guiding us into a ball roll back um con I’m not I’m not trying to change anybody’s mind just just talking about a golf Hall that’s all but that’s the thing even though we’re just talking about golf I think
We’re helping people to an informed opinion because everyone’s just shouting at each other with limited information because that very Golf Course right the last time the men were there for the US open I don’t care what the winning score is the winning score is the winning score but I’ve been there when it’s
Freaking cold and blowing off the ocean and the ball goes nowhere and Pebble Beach is the longest golf course you ever played and I’ve been there when it’s warm and sunny and dry and the ball’s running and then it plays short and then everyone’s like well you know
It’s too short and then they’re just moaning on social about this I’m like you folks have no idea how much nature in these great locations even Tory Pines has so much influence on how the golf course plays and that’s just how it is for goodness sake let’s start let’s stop
Trying to hble together what we think the winning score should be be and just allow the winning score to be the lowest score of the week well that’s the thing I that’s one I think par has you know par has been a great thing in terms of like golf viewer right
Par was created for for golf tournaments so that people understood where players stood right it’s you know par provides it you’re able to understand like I was just doing some research for our year review pods that we do on the shotgun start where we like kind of go through
Every tournament and remember inan things but I saw like at the PGA Eric Cole was five under and Bryson was leading at four I think it was Bryson and Scotty were at four yeah um through round one but Eric Cole had only played 14 holes so he was five under through 14
It provides at the end of round one because there was a frost delay yeah but so it provides this barometer of understanding where somebody is in the middle of their round right like it would have looked really weird if it was like Eric Cole 57 brys dambo 66 like it
Doesn’t you know so par has provide it it provides this awesome ability to relate players when they’re in different positions through the golf course right but it has had a very bad very bad impact on the way we perceive golf courses you know an example is Byron Nelson the Byron Nelson tournament at
Craig Ranch they said we need to make this golf course harder so all they did was they just changed the par of one hole from a par five to a par four and it’s like okay so instead of 20 minus 27 winning minus 23 won well the golf course actually got
Easier because one of the holes got shorter right if you’re talking about relative scoring like just scoring the golf ball got easier but the perception of the golf course got that it got harder but in actuality the golf course got easier and it’s like we have to like remove the
Association I I used to play a golf course in in uh Chicago it’s a great golf course I would play it on Mondays I was friends with the superintendent um it’s called Old Elm okay and the the golf course is amazing it’s a Harry Colt course it’s amazing it was built by
Donald Ross it’s it’s probably the most underrated Great Golf Course in America um they just don’t really care about rankings and stuff MH anyways the golf course is a par 73 most of their members are like older players like 70 year old players so the golf course is a par 73
But whenever I went out there I mean they had like these 460 yard par FS I I thought to myself it’s a par 69 for me right like and when you think about this like the other aspect of it if you play a par five is a par four you’re more
Aggressive and you actually play better so there was a study done about this with the US Open we were on Pebble so they studied the uh what hole was it at Oakmont um I’m it’s blanking me but the second hole at Pebble and a hole at Oakmont they saw that these two holes
Switched pars from par five to par four and there’s this is a this is a like an academic study what they saw they when they controlled the two groups is that by by simply changing par nothing else changed about the hole no like the yardage change was inconsequential nothing changed by changing
Par PGA Tour players are the best players in the world played the holes uh a quarter of a shot better and you know why mindset said yeah they’re they’re more PGA Tour players are more incentivized by not losing a shot as in like not making a bogey so if it’s a par four
Playing aggressive to make a par they’re in more incentivized of not losing than gaining a shot so they want to not lose more than they want to win if you think about it from that and it’s it’s a very common thing in like people that are that play the stock market it’s called
Loss sub verion yeah it’s this fear of losing so if you so like the the thing is like if you are able to change your mindset if you think like if you play a golf course say this a 500 yard par par five that is a really easy birdie
Hole if you think about that as a par four and you’re somebody that could like reach the green if you hit a good drive like if you think about that as a par four you will play roughly a quarter of a shot better per round so if you think about that
Across like four par fives if if these players could just get in their head they aren’t par fives or par fours you could save a shot which would be you know that’s the difference between being an average player and an elite player on the PGA tour I hope my former college
Players I was a college coach for 20 years are listening to you right now um because I used to preach all the time if you make fours on fives and threes on threes you have the nucleus for a very good score and then the other eight holes you just couble together something
Useful and you shooting parro better forget there was one of the national championships we went to Glade Springs outside of Charleston West Virginia yeah hard right yeah lots of movement Great Golf Course um second hole as a members par five but the NCAA in all of their
Wisdom made it a par four so we get on the te there in the first practice run and you look up at the board there the US Open style T marker and it’s 480 yards Par Four with a blind t-shot over a hill Fairway is like it’s like a green
Ribbon in front of you it’s narrow and the rof is like ankle high and I watch my kid spraying the ball all over the joint off the te I’m like easy tigers I want you to change that power number to five and play this as if it’s a power
Five if you get on the greed in two awesome you’re putting for Eagle otherwise just make sure five is the worst you’re going to make because I can see College golfers they’re going to butcher this place right they’re not just going to make fives they’re gonna make sixes and sevens in the interests
Of trying to somehow make birie we played that whole under par for the week just because of a mindset change like that yeah it’s it’s crazy it’s it’s insane how your mind and and like just having the right mentality about a whole it’s I it sounds like your players
Instead of walking up to it and being like what a stupid Hole by changing your mindset to this is play this like a par five it it removes this like fairer unfair aspect that’s probably one of my least things when people talk about a golf course is fair and unfair I mean
What is fair fair is an objective you know it’s very objective like what one person find Fair another person might find unfair and really when you get down boil down to golf what golf is there is no fairness it’s an objectively unfair sport it’s a freaking unfair exactly I
Know if any anybody that subjects themselves to a lifelong pursuit of golf knows that it’s just it’s it’s cruel it’s it’s unusual the whole idea of golf is like here are your sticks here’s your ball and you got to go and Conquer whatever we put in front of you that’s
What golf is at the very core of it is is figuring out how to get from point A to point B in the least number of shots no matter what’s in front of you like a lot of the great holes and a lot of the great features at at the greatest golf
Course in the world are objectively unfair yep you know what I find comical and the better golfers get at the game the more they start to adopt this mindset because you know I’ve taught beginner golfers where they get the ball in the air and it’s the happiest day of
Their life and I’ve taught Elite golfers major Champions where they miss one shot and it’s like the end of the world the golfers are actually trying to perfect this um by definition imperfect game I mean you’re playing on a living surface you’re playing in a moving medium in the
Air all the time and it’s so V it’s so Mercurial that perfecting what you’re doing is by definition impossible yet they ventured down this freaking Garden Path and at the end of that is just a lack of Hope despair disillusionment you name them it’s all at the end of that
Road yeah it’s it’s unbelievable I mean I think about this all the time is like there’s no other sport where you could get as unlucky as like you hit a perfect shot it hits the pin the pin and it bounces into a water hazard like it’s
Like I just hit a great shot was like I’m not supposed to aim at the like the flag got in the way and then I ended up in the water hazard like I mean but that’s also what makes the game so brilliant is it puts you in these like
These leverage situations I think that’s one of the things that makes golf such a great like life sport is that you get used to dealing with like really bad breaks and having to get over them quickly if you want to continue to play at a high level in a round right opinion
Question I got to stop you yeah I think my longtime listeners know where I stand on this but a divid hole uh ground under repair or not in your opinion Andy not ground under repair we’re playing on an imperfect surface like right like this is the whole it’s the goes back to the
Spirit of golf right like it is not where you hit it is where you hit it and where what the ball where how the ball comes to rest is how the ball comes to rest and you play from there yeah you know it is um I don’t know it it it just
I think that’s the the thing about golf is that so much you have to let go of fair and just laugh and it’s hard to do but you have to laugh at at the the breaks the golf deals you because that’s a lot it’s very similar to life right if you’re
Able to kind of like get through your your rough patches in life with a little bit of humor um I think it it makes it makes it easier to go on with with with golf especially is like if you hit an a divot you know like one of the things I
I used to play competitively as an amateur um and uh and I just don’t have the time anymore but one of the things that’s really changed about my mindset and you know sometimes I wonder if I’m better now than I was when I was really you know spending a good chunk of my
Personal time at the sport you know one of the things that I’m so much better at now is that when my ball goes into div a lot of times people will be like oh you know you should uh you should you know pull it out of that right and I got and
Like I’m like no I want to hit this shot this is going to be fun like the idea that like when you get into a weird spot that that is fun because you’re not hitting a stock shot and something that always flashes into my brain Jeff Ogie
Um who I who used to be a regular on our podcast when I asked him about the 18th hole at wingf foot you know he his ball famously ends up in a divot on the final hole best pit shot I’ve ever seen that third shot that he had over there so
Good so so I asked him about the divot and he’s like you know I’m honestly I flushed that shot I hit the I hit a great great shot from the apprach shot M and and obviously caught the false front on 18 he goes the thing I forgot that I
Always try and remember when you’re in a divot is the ball flies like three to four yards shorter than if it’s not in the divot and he’s like I forgot to put that into my calculation and so it hits on like the top of the front I mean if
It flies two more yards he might might make him a birdie right might be one of the most incredible approach shots we’ve ever seen so it catches the front comes back but like I always think about that then too is like I like laugh I see the
Divot I’m excited to hit like a different shot and then I always what H Pops in my mind it’s like this Ball’s gonna fly like five yards short so you know if that if that’s in your calculation you know what it’s part of the reason why I referenced that pitch
Shot because to come back after that hard break in the Fairway and hit that P make four and win as spokes to just The Moxy of the man to try and you know recover get your mind figured out to it this very difficult third um but I love
Where you’re going and it reminds me of my hero Statesman great golfer Hall of Famer Bob Jones uh he said keys to golf would to turn three Strokes into two basically around the greens and he goes and you got to learn to play the ball as
It lies um it’s if you want to become a skilled grad golfer play it from everywhere all of the time because you will as a result from a golf teaching point of view if you learn to hit those shots properly by definition you begin to actually improve your Technique to be
Able to extricate yourself from those T types of environments yeah and also like you understand shots and like all of a sudden you can turn disadvantages into advantages right like sometimes if I’m playing in a in a strong wind and I hit a drive into the rough I’m like you know
What that’s okay my ball coming out of that rough isn’t going to have much Spin and I’m going to be able to play it more like a normal shot I have to deal less With the Wind because I know the ball’s going to knuckle out of this lie and the
Wind’s going to have less of an impact on it and it’s just this understanding and and like you said and what Bob Jones said the the whole premise of that is playing out of those shots like those shots become way more comfortable when you’re used to playing them right so
Like divot divot lies like the more you play it the more you realize like this isn’t that bad right like something like I you know I think it’s crazy is like and I’ve started to hear more people talk about it but for years like everybody’s like oh 50 yard
Bunker shot those those are awful those are awful well it’s like you know if there’s nothing in front of you and this people think it’s wild when they see me do this I’ll take like a seven or a six iron and open it up and the ball you
Know just you let it run like it’s an unconventional people are trying to hit these like Chip Shot wedges out of there like these different things it’s like just hit it like a normal sandshot and let the ball roll yeah and it’s like that sounds really weird and people the
First instinct is like that I can’t do that but if you just hit a few of them you’re more likely and I think like where people I don’t I I don’t want to sound preachy but like you know every round should be treated as an experiment in a
Sense you know when you’ve got the paper to pencil you know the the pencil to the scorecard in like a tournament setting I get not experimenting but if it’s just a weekend game try shots you know like everybody’s in this fear of like oh I might shoot
84 when it doesn’t really like what you’re trying to do in every round you play is become a better golfer and the best way to become a better golfer is to experiment and hit different shots especially under the gun right like that’s when you know if you’ve tried
Some shots in a casual nine-hole round at the end of the night like it it there’s a a level of getting over it and hitting it under the gun and that’s where like I think data has done an incredible um has been incredible at teaching people some of the basics
For how to play yeah right but there you know there’s also a whole philosophy of how to play Under the Gun and you know if you want to do some things sometimes it calls for playing outside of the book right I always think man that’s what the
Geniuses do that’s what I always think about with major championships right like if you you know as an observer you’re out there um at at most of the majors I’m out there at some of the majors I feel like there’s always the major championships come down to a few
Moments and people that color a little bit outside the lines to get things done yeah man I love that you’ve shared so much in already I’ve I had this list of questions to ask but you’ve been fantastic all right and now I got to let
You go you’ve been so great with me um you’ve shared so many great insights playing Power four fives as power fours right mentality of a whole making golf fun playing outside of the book you you’ve shared some incredible insight for people to go and you know try and I
I want to be clear with the outside the book like I think like the core fundamentals like the best players in the world are the most conservative and they play away from targets for the most CA in most cases right but there are times and rounds where you have to not
Play conservative if you want to do something special yeah you know what it’s you’re so right I I I’ve said this time and time again I I call Golf a game of Risk and great golfers are risk averse largely but they know when they’re going to roll the dice because
It’s basically a game of probability and I watched a movie last night it was some Army movie right and the Army generals had their data guy there and the data guy goes you cannot do this there’s a 14% chance of success so basically there’s an 86% chance of failure and so
The Army General talks over the radio to the one person left in the wherever they were and he goes what do you think and the person’s like I got this and so he said the president at the time goes go ahead and she pulled it off miraculously
But you know at times you have the sense and if you understand the probability then you just make the most probable call at every time Nick Nick feldo said to me one time he said when he was playing all the time um he and Fanny would play a game of okay what do
I want and what can I do so he stand over his shot and he goes I want to H at the flag can I do that right now wind lie how am I feeling whatever the cases might be he goes uh no so they would
Move what can I do and they kept moving it to a place where what I want and what I can do intersect it then he would hit that shot and it worked pretty well it worked out pretty well for him that’s the thing like I think like most golfers
Understand how their body’s moving in a in a round right and I I I really believe like body the way your body moves is going to dictate how you swing the club on a day and the LIE right yeah so like if your body’s moving well in a round if you’re really swinging
Well you know all this stuff about dispersion it’s all based off of averages right some days you have it some days you don’t and the averages come together but if you’re contending especially if you’re a PGA Tour player right if you’re contending at the end of a end of a
Tournament your dispersions that week are going to be way tighter than your average which allows you to play slightly more aggressive and if you want to win a golf tournament we see it every I mean how many times do you think back about a tournament on Sunday night after
You called it and be like you know what that guy got like a great bounce off a c path and he won by one right yeah or he wasn’t really in it playing crappy on the first six holes and all of a sudden just because he hung
Around then all of a sudden he someone makes a bogey and all of a sudden you’re back into it then just that jolt of adrenaline Nick price on the show shared when he won the open trun uh pardon me turnbury his first one he said to me
Folks must going to listen to it he goes Mark I had the worst warm-up of the week he goes could hit the thing my golf swing felt all funkier before the final round and so he goes as a result the first my eight nine holes I played very
Defensively he goes and all of a sudden Jesper who was W in front pavic made a mistake and Nick got a sniff he goes okay I’m going to take a risk on one hole and he hit driver way down there something he wouldn’t have done early in
The round and then then he turned it into a birdie then makes the improbable Eagle on the par five Down The Back Nine and all of a sudden he’s won he goes but honestly I was playing to avoid disaster for most of the way then turned up the
Jets over the final few holes it’s a I mean it’s just that’s the thing is like and what your swing feels like at at the start of the round could be completely different than how it feels on the 10th hole like right it’s everybody’s been there where just like one swing turns
Around your round like you you you’ve been slapping it all over the place and then you just get a you find a feel and it works so I think like just understanding the pulse of of the game right and pulse of you is so important to to personal success it is such like
Golf more so than any other sport in the world is such a like it’s a 4-Hour personal introspection right like you are just dealing with yourself for four hours and and trying to figure out how to get the most out of yourself right so so take and your par number and your par
Number may change sometimes it may be 70 sometimes it may be 79 that’s where like a Jordan spe that guy when he signs his scorecard at the end of the round he has shot the best score he could possibly shoot on the day now there certain
Golfers I watch when they sign the card it’s the highest score they possibly could have shot even though it’s still good it’s it’s uncanny but that’s for a different shirt I mean that that’s the difference between the greats and the and the goods on the PGA tour is the
Guys that just manage to get you know get the most out of their rounds more most often right it’s like there’s so many guys and and I think this is like so true you hear this all the time is like you go to Monday qualifier you go
To Q school this week you watch these guys and and it’s hard to discern the difference between them and a and a tour player but it’s all the little margin is they win on every little margin the really great players is it’s just they’re just a fraction better here a
Fraction better there and and that’s where like you see it with like JT last year where he struggled mightily and it’s like you look at the stats and it’s just like these small dips right like it’s a little bit dip off the tea a little bit dip on approach and it’s like
That’s the difference between being a top 10 player and a top 80 player that’s true I’ve got so many questions still quickly quick hit favorite architect um you know I think if I had to if I had to settle on one it’ probably be Alistar McKenzie um that’s good
Enough okay uh must play golf course on a budget off the top of your head um all right if you’re in Wisconsin lasonia links uh if you’re in uh in in uh Nebraska make the trk to Wild Horse it’s worth it and if you’re in uh if you’re
In the East loan area the one that gets in Scotland the one that gets skipped often that shouldn’t be skipped is dunar awesome hey I got to have you on again there’s a lot more stuff we got to talk about but you are great Andy um thank
You please direct the folks to where they can find you and where they can find all your stuff yeah in the podcast feeds we have the Friday golf podcast and uh the shotgun start and then if you’re uh looking to just if you’re a big Reader sign up for a free newsletter
I think that’s probably the best way to to stay up to dat with everything that we’re doing and you can sign up for free at the fried egg.com so thanks so much for having me on Mark longtime fan and uh appreciate it listen judging by some of the stuff you shared
Today my list is long um you should get into sports or golf performance and psychology as well bro I don’t know listen thanks very much appreciate you joining us thank you how’s
