One BIG LIE About the Golf Swing! – Golf Test Dummy
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@Monte Scheinblum
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45 Comments
Bedankt
Love Monte! I've done the wall drill before which really helped, throwing the club down and keeping it on the wall as long as possible. I'll have to revisit that drill as the other billion other swing thoughts flood my head.
Question on your backswing. How do you determine when to stop? I did an instruction last week and didn't realize how far I was extending back, almost reverse K'ing.
When I came across Monte Scheinblum's No Turn Cast Drill video 5 yrs ago…I went from a 16 hcap to a 10 in 3 months
You've opened a kettle of fish with this one! First of all, I have looked at the lag hold vs throw argument from every angle and I've determined that the debate is somewhat of a red herring although it might not appear that way at first glance. Nobody creates more true lag than Cameron Champ. True lag is that which is created and held without holding back the rotation of the body in any form because lag of any other kind has to be given back in some form to a fair degree. Mickelson and Champ seem to have similar lag angles but Mickelson has a very narrow backswing and then stalls his hips on the way down in order to create the extreme angle Champ on the other hand just has a virtually perfect rotation sequence and synchronization which means the massive angle is created and sustained by amazing synchronization of the moving parts of his rotation linkage. This includes width and direction of takeaway, quality of rotation and turn, and maybe most underrated is quality of footwork, combined with weight shift.
This is the real issue with lag because there are very few tolerances for the close-to-perfect sychronization that allows it to be optimized. Therefore, those who experience improvement through feeling that they are dumping from the top are those whose quality of rotation is improved by doing so probably because they need to stay back and down and little longer into the hit instead of trying to steer the angle into the ball in order to optimize rotation. The opposite basically holds for those who benefit from trying to drive the angle into the ball.
In that regard, I notice these things about the effect of the change on your swing:. 1) you naturally stayed back and down a bit more in doing it which changed the quality of your rotation so that you …
a) slightly flattened your plane in the early downswing allowing the club to drop slightly more behind your trail shoulder and move the shaft further down your trail bicep (this is one of the conditions for lag)
b) were more able to move your bent trail arm to your trail side approaching impact (sign of better arm motion alignment with your torso rotation)
c) rotated more directly forward on to your trail toe instead of forward over your trail instep, which means more centered rotation through impact
d) produced a slightly later hit which was more on plane with slightly more shaft lean (on plane shaft lean is one of the biggest and least recognized sources of power since the force of the hit goes right through the center of the ball and in line with the motion of the shaft; e.g. heavy hit)
e) more fully followed the release of the trail arm with the motion of the trail shoulder; sign of having driven through the ball
Useful Note:
A really good sign of high quality of rotation is that the act of switching the knee positions immediately before impact will literally catapult the club right through the hitting zone with tremendous power. If this switching produces a solid and powerful impact, it generally demonstrates that the lead up to pre-impact was rotationally very well synchronized. This is hard to miss in the swing of Cameron Champ viewed at full speed.
So to summarize, the angle dumping feeling produced a better center for your particular rotation and better overall footwork to compliment that rotation, thus more power potential. This kind of efficiency with rotation becomes more difficult as the shaft gets longer which makes Champ's driver motion all the more extraordinary.
Another thing about lag is that it is largely misunderstood; I can basically reproduce the motions of Champ's swing that create his tremendous effciency and one overlooked item is that he does not just lag the shaft with respect to his lead wrist but even more significantly he lags the trail forearm with respect to the trail upper arm so that he ends up leading with the trail elbow for a long time into impact; this is compounded lag.
Because he also compresses his upper body towards the ball while maintaining a perfect rotation relationship with the motion of his lead arm, he has more room in the downswing to maintain the bend of his trail arm way into pre-impact. He then uses perfect footwork to release all of this potential energy right through the ball. Because Champ has such perfect rotational symmetry in his swing, I doubt that he feels anything like releasing from the top (even though that is the proven actuality for all great strikers) but probably more likely feels an almost perfect continual buildup of power until he has to "let it all go", a lot like swinging a heavy item so fast that you can't hold it any longer. Cheers.
The confusion is in the terminology. Throw the club to some simply means increasing the angle between the trail upper arm and the forearm. Gears has proven this move amongst the best pga tour players. This is a shallowing move that allows lag to be maintained and an inside approach. Look at it like a bicep uncurl at the top while recentering. This in no way means throwing away the wrist angle. That is for goat humping flippers. Try it Chad. A slight trail arm curl in the takeaway gets the club up on plane in the backswing as opposed to taking it in side. A slight trail arm uncurl while recentering does shallow the club. You must rotate and you may need to strengthen your grip. It was a gold nugget move for me that has definitely stood the test of time. I hope it will be for you.
Thanks Chad
Wow really interesting concept. Need to go to range and try this. Thanks for information.
Check out Dan Alton golf, he talks about the folding point which is similar to what you're talking about
This is excellent! There was a similar concept by overhand golf. And when you try this, you can definately get more speed. Good work!
Thats basically what I've been doing folding right arm up at a 45 degree angle then going straight down and trying to keep body still it does work two rounds using this with great results.
Love the no turn cast drill reference! I think the more you hold the lag the more you lose it. I keep my wrists turned off and flexible and turn my body. The club snaps through. On vid I have plenty of lag. So I’m passive about it but there are plenty of great players who have active wrists throwing the clubhead through the ball. It’s only casting if the body stops. IMO.
What nobody talks about is ball position. Can you speak to that? Please!
This is very similar to what the guy at overhand golf suggests as well. Great video you should check out his early videos. He's went dark but the videos are still up
Great thought and solidly explained tip! In a sense, more of an arm swing than a body turn. Easier to time without putting too much thought into it. Btw, you'll never guess what Seinfeld episode was on when i started watching this. On e of my favorites.
Marcus Edblad teaches that same concept
If you sway just some inches to your trail side the Fatshot is always a thing. but if you stay centered by doing this its money. Have you been influenced by Tom Saguto? I can think that this cast move combined with Tom thought is golden.
But I think you found a very functional swing, its very similar to my swing evolution, and its working, I started the year at 18.5, down to 10.1 now with a very messy putting game… (a center shaft putter is on the way)
Always strikes me with golf, that no matter how different the instructions, most really come down to the same thing…impact position.
I am definately gonna give this a go. I think I'm sort of doing this, but not fully. It reminds me somewhat of the Venetos method, too. Good job Chad.
I totally agree with your findings. However I believe the trail elbow is a much greater power source than the wrists. And for what you describe to work you have to get your weight foward.
Check out Steve Pratt Golf. He teaches this as well and explains you can' cast the club if you continue to turn. Worth a look.
Looking a lot like JVGA swing there but with the slight hip turn … 🤔
Hi Chad congratulations! You are no longer forcing your downswing with your right hip that forced you to stand up too early on your downswing
What you actually discovered in your revelation of the golf swing today is the rolling of you personal butt and the continuous pivoting of your downswing to the finish of your swing that is required for the lagging of your club head to its last moment of contact to your ball. Cheers⛳️👍😃🥂
Tuna on toast with coleslaw and a cup of coffee..
No, no wait a minute, I always have tuna on toast and nothing ever works out for me.
I’ll have chicken salad… on rye.. untoasted… with a side of potato salad… and a cup of tea… ahahaa!!
I gained 12 mph of club speed with driver doing No Turn/Cast. I didn’t do any speed training or work out in any way. Went from a 24 handicap index down to 5 in 3 years of watching Monte’s instructional stuff.
Hmmmm? You indicated no turn? Can't see it.
Please expand on the no turning.
“Holding” the lag has ruined my swing for decades now. It’s funny that you made this video because a couple of months my buddies asked what I changed in my swing. I told them I just started doing the opposite of what I used to work on. Keeping the angle forces the hands out and leads the hosel into the ball…not good (and saps power). DeChambeau also talks about trying to throw away all the angles behind him. Trying to throw while turning doesn’t mean you’re actually doing it, but it means you’re not trying to hold it.
One of the best and honest golf tips I have seen in a long while and very well explained.
Buddy I tell you what…that swing you have reminds me of Ernie Els….That is the highest compliment I can give.
great stuff!
Hey Chad. Great stuff. Are you focusing on turning while you’re throwing away the angle?
Great stuff as always. I really liked the George Costanza reference.
Looking forward to more on this! Thanks, for sharing…stay cool 👍
Looks like you have figured out the JVGA swing. I've been crushing the ball doing the same thing, but with a different focus. I pivot my weight onto my left side, and keep it there. Closed shoulders, no turn. To start the swing I basically hammer curl the club up to the top with my trail arm, my left shoulder being the unmoving (as far as I can tell) fulcrum. From there it's like I'm trying to throw the club down to the ground at my back foot as hard as I can. Like you're showing here, I'm getting a lot more distance with better accuracy.
Love the videos Chad. As I watched this one it is what Peter Croker of Croker Golf has been teaching for years. Un-cock the wrists as soon as possible and throw the club head at the ball. You should check him out.
I would sure like to see ya do more videos on the golf course. I do like to watch your content and theories.
I'm 69 and I've always thought the pro teachers make the golf swing so difficult with so many variables, that nobody could understand it or make it work as an amateur. You've worked with Jim Venetos and he – in a weird way – preaches what you say here. You just don't turn your body as he does at setup. I've worked with his method and concluded it's the easiest golf swing to execute because there's so little to think about. But while his method produces perfectly straight shots for me, for the life of me I can't make the ball draw or go where I want it to without changing my alignment stance dramatically. Headed to the range today to try your discovery. Something tells me after all my years of pursuit of the stupid golf swing, this just might work.
An older gentleman (Pro Instructor) on YouTube has a video that talks about how way back in the Harry Vardon days, they would teach the following-
Imagine a wooden stake on the ground that’s parallel to your feet and positioned 2 feet behind your right foot. On the downswing, imagine hammering the top of that stake with your clubhead.
Check out Marcus Edblad, he advocates the exact same thing
I can hit all clubs like this but struggling with the driver. Possibly next vid?
I think this might vary from person to person. Your swing looks really good and if I go frame-by-frame, you seem to end up with a pretty decent lag anyway. And physically, it IS necessary or you will end up with a horrible shot on average. So saying, that if you would succeed in doing what you say you are aiming at, i.e. "release all angles as soon as possible", you would not have decent shots. So I guess in your case, this slightly "paradox" swing thought gets you to the correct impact and for sure this might help others too, but I think your inference that lead to the title of this video "BIG LIE" is more of an artifact of the way your mind-body connection works (and it clearly is true for you), rather than some universal truth that you discovered. However you still end up with an important point here, that teaching should be much more individualized. For me, if I try this, I end up with the most horrible duffs you can imagine. The only way for me to hit clean shots is to think "hands always accelerate to be infront of the club", then I can make solid and repeatable swings. (Credits: 25 years of playing golf, degrees in mechanical engineering and PhD in Biomechanics)
Great video.
Just a quick follow-up comment. Took this to the driving range and instantly created a swing that works for all my clubs (except the driver). I found I had to think hard about creating and keeping lag only because I tend to release too early – CHUNK! Once I did that and made sure I did not move my center focus on the backswing, everything went great. Took it to the course and scored par on 9 holes. All these years I've been trying to create that natural in to out path and failed terribly until I saw this video. Many thanks to you. I now actually enjoy this game.
Look up "golf flail" on YouTube.
Another great video. There are so many instructors preaching so many different things it’s insane out there. Some are so focused on using the ground and that being your speed source while others are saying that most of your speed comes from your arms, wrists and hands!
The “lag” instruction is often either miscommunicated by the instructor or misapplied by the student. Nobody holds lag all the way through the swing. Everyone flips in the golf swing, you have to flip and release those wrist angles it’s just where you do it in the swing that is the critical part.
I Knew you were into this. You rascal. This is the Bomb. The new Golf. Hope your listeners take it serious. Because this is it!!!! Congratulaions. .