Thanks to @John Erickson
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44 Comments
Interesting stuff. I’ve got some 1983 Hogans. Might have to give it a try.
I have always thought flatter lie angles would be easier on a golfer's back with a little less side bend needed for a solid strike.
John, what is your advice here… I surmise your average audience is playing with the latest cast game improvement club that cannot change the lie angle more than a couple degrees? If I recall when I worked with you your clubs were a classic Wilson Staff forged blade that bend like butter. Also, with a flat lie will you address the low hands on the set up? I had to beg a Bay area club maker to bend my forged clubs 4 degree flat. He thought I was crazy being 6’3”…. He knew you and quit arguing and bent my clubs. Thanks
This is excellent
Quick , Ping gold dot !!
Trackman can tell you what your lie angle is at impact. If that angle with a 6I is say 63 degrees should you get clubs more upright than standard or more flat than standard. And how many players are there out there who are at say 57 degrees lie angle at impact let alone 54 degrees which is the six degrees flat Erickson uses?
Brendan, I was wondering what type of hat you are wearing. Great look and sun UV protection
The funny thing is your swing wasn’t flat at all. But the result was good. You just dropped it to the inside just like you would with your clubs. Go figure.
I have played clubs with a 4 degree variance at different times over the past couple of years due to experimentation. I just figured it out. But to shape the ball comfortably I need to be near what most call standard. The easiest way to close the face is to keep it closed and it will be square at impact with your body turn.
Length of the clubs has to match comfortably.
There's also "shaft droop" that will flatten a club's lie angle when swung at full speed.
None of this matters if you can’t compress the ball imo. Haven’t figured out that trick yet.
who'd a thunk it, ping's clubfitting system could be wrong. i've been playing ping white dot 3 degrees up for 8 years which i was fitted for and seem ok i guess. i always thought the toe should be up a bit at address because the shaft flexes down and forward or maybe backwards too at some point. i'm 6' 0'' also. interesting discussion as always.
Makes a lot of sense what John has explained just the lil time I’ve spent playing golf coming from a baseball background. My question is if your clubs are too upright can that make u early extend and raise the handle in an attempt to fit the club in at impact?
So basically ABS need different lie angles to work? Unless one is hitting of a tee?
Yeah i'm not paying like $15,000 to get online 'instruction' from this guy. Instruction has to be 1 on 1.
I used to play 4 degrees flat off of old Mizuno lie angles until I learned to stop roll releasing. Flat lie angles have long been used as a band aid for a left miss. The TXG guy plays really flat lie angle to manage his left miss. Its an easier move than to address the actual issue.
Aha moment!
How can I bend my fairway woods and hybrids flat?
What about us guys at 5'8 what degree flatter should we try? I love experimenting
Interesting though
Just for clarity. John is advocating a club face approaching impact “ open” then squaring it with the forearms aggressively as possible knowing it’s virtually impossible to hook the ball. On one of Brendan earlier videos with AJ Bonar , AJ said the same thing about Stan Leonard who actually set up with the club open so he could close it aggressively without fear of hooking.
Wow light bulb moment 💡
The basic problem with golf is that the conventional swing which has it’s roots back in the 1800s was developed around the limitations of hickory shafted clubs which twisted the face of the club open and shut during the swing and snapped under stress. This I know because as a kid I broke all my grandpa’s old Mashies and Niblicks. Byron Nelson developed the dual plane swing to take advantage of steel shaft bending, loading and unloading but still dragged club through ball with it compressing and decompressing off a face moving forward at 80+ MPH.
The better way to accelerate the ball which Harry Frankenberg (Count Yogi) discovered is to swing a golf club like a hammer or cracking a whip to get maximum acceleration of club head BEFORE impact and maximum rate of ball decompression off the face by locking and momentarily stopping the club face with the grip as face turns square to target which the ball reacts to like an unbelted passenger in a car moving 80mph of the driver slams on the brakes of hits brick wall, which is what a downswing feels like if one does not lift up the back foot to free the hips to turn past 45° open.
The biggest problem with that swing style is a propensity for snapping club heads off the shaft at the hosel which which could be remedied by redesigning how shaft connects to hosel but that is still done like it was back when golfers were whacking balls made out of leather and boiled goose feathers 🤷🏼♂️
Great content, but like most of his videos thus far I'm left with many unanswered questions. Is 6 degrees flat standard for everybody? Does it not vary from person to person? And if so, how do you determine which is best for the individual??
What does John have in the bag?
Brysons lie angles are 10 * upright on his irons.
6 degrees flat is far too extreme , clubs should be made to fit you not the other way around.
This is wild. A few weeks ago I gave up on upright and started with my old wrap-around flat swing and went from shooting 87-90 to 67-83.
With any newer idea or concept of what the greats from yesteryear were doing in an effort to better understand should be proven out by the modern player. The modern pros of today have everything at their disposal to dissect and analyze any potential flaw in their swing. The concept of 6 degrees flat may work well for his particular swing. He is intentionally trying to swing it very flat, like that of Ben Hogan. The concept of the right angle of the shaft to the spine angle is very interesting. That concept can be proven out by many modern players. Tiger is very close to this right angle at about half way down with his hands, at 75 % of the way the shaft is intersecting his spine at an almost perfect 90* angle. Rory is very similar. So to extrapolate that further is the angle of your torso and shaft length more important to lie angle? It sure seems that one could stand more upright and bend a bit more at the waist to get this 90* angle. I definitely don't like the concept of adapting my swing to a flatter lie angle. I think it's easier to adapt your lie angle to what you more naturally do to achieve this 90* angle.
Very interesting! I'm 5'10" with relatively short arms so I always get fitted upright. This forces a really vertical swing plane which is hard on my back and makes it difficult for me to follow through. Would going flatter, be easier on my body? Does a flatter lie promote more of a follow through? It seems like it.
John, the flatter lie angle could be the perfect compliment to single-length irons, which I have and strongly endorse.
John? Do you like any of today's PGA players swings? Any LPGA swings? Have you seen Linn Grant's golf swing? Do you like Sergio Garcia's swing? What are your thoughts on John Schlee's teaching and golf swing? Thanks
The bending of the 975Ds: what sort of lie angle is being achieved?
What brand of irons is he using?
We all watch videos to learn something from the game. As far as I'm concerned John's experience alone gives weight to what he is teaching and showing. Anyone can disagree, but whatever " you " say has really nothing to back that up. Other than you saying so. So why argue?
It's ridiculous, just watch maybe learn. If you have question ask. . I'm here to learn something. I'll let my swing decide if it's wrong or right.
Good luck Brendon. We can all look forward to your new set of clubs. But don't drink the kool aid!
If the heel digs in first and sends the ball left, the club lie is too upright. If the toe digs in first and opens the face to send the ball right, the lie is too flat. If neither of those are happening the lie is just right. I don't think it needs to be any more complicated than that.
JE – again you have the physics a bit mixed up. Please check out Dr Sasho Mackenzie's article 'What is ‘rate of closure’ and can it help your golf swing?'. ROC is a complex matter and just making your swing inclination flatter will actually increase ROC but it's far more complicated. Your explanation is too simplistic and doesn't cover all the other variables that can be involved.
Note what he says about swing plane inclination
How to change your Rate of Closure, #2: Change the “incline plane” of your swing
The club is swung down and around the body on the forward swing, which presents the Inclined Plane knob. Turning this knob to zero would result in moving the clubhead in a vertical plane like a Ferris wheel (0° from vertical). At a driver speed of 90 mph, an Incline Plane knob turned up to 30° from vertical (a steep move through impact) contributes about 800 °/s to RoC. Cranking the knob up to a relatively flat 45° from vertical, increases the contribution to 1200 °/s. There may be reasons to change the pitch of your swing, but reducing RoC shouldn’t be one of them. Tour players tend to have relatively similar vertical swing planes with driver (40° to 45° from vertical) and most amateurs are too vertical already.
I like this video
But the way you’re loving the club wouldn’t the toe pointing up be upright? I know it’s an illustration
Also don’t bend cast clubs +6 degrees! Lol if you do, try the 7 irons so you can get a replacement on the bay!
Alright!
1. Bend my stealth driver hosel to 6 flat
2. tip my ventus velcore a foot
3. add a shaft extender or 3 to the butt.
4. Add 253 grams of lead tape to the 200 gram head to get to 16 ounces
Got it!!
Interesting observation but too many assumptions that this is all "good". For example, most golfers who take it back flat return the club steep or OTT. So the argument at 6:26 that this promotes a flat backswing could just as easily be argued as a bad thing. Also, think of this – if you impact the ball with the toe too up, the result is a thin shot or worse, a shank. This is why you chip toe down, is it not? I'd rather hit one or two shots a round that were too toe down and resulted in a weak fade than thin one over the green or shank it. The lie should be adjusted to the swing, not the other way around.
Love this.
Which video is your lesson video?
Why did he hit it off the floorboards, when there was a mat?