Are Zero Torque putters a flash in the pan or here to stay???

Fully Equipped’s Johnny Wunder is joined by Odyssey’s Cody Hale and PGA Tour Pro Justin Lower to debate the longevity of Zero Torque putters in the marketplace.

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new square to squares coming out this week. Some new models, some red models. You know, they’re going to be all over social media and all over the media. And um but those are that’s the new trend. It’s it’s the you know, we’ll call it zero torque, low low torque, whatever you want to call it. You know, everybody’s kind of got a different definition for it, but you know, Cody, I’m going to start with you. you know, you were you’re sort of familiar with like the center shafted space coming from Seymour and a little bit of your past, but like you know, just as a tour rep and seeing technology progress the way that it has. I mean, where where’s your head at on all this stuff? Is it too much, too little? Is that like where do you sit? I Yeah, I mean, it’s it’s obviously created its own category now. And coming from a center shaft, you know, primary center shaft company, um, you know, we talked a lot about it, but this is, you know, a little bit different. I mean you have the putter space has become more competitive um over the last year or two and so obviously with the introduction and um you know increased usage of zero torque or you know what however you want to we call it square to square uh putters. Uh so I think it’s I think it b you know there there’s a lot of benefits for some players. It may not it’s not for everybody clearly um but there are a lot of players who you know who would benefit from a model like this. So you know we’ve introduced some models uh over the last year or so um in the square to square category and uh you know with the idea that we would continue to push this forward as we see you know obviously there’s a market for it and a lot of you know just regular consumers could benefit from this technology right and then this week they’re coming out with their Odyssey you know square to square tryh hot which is you know tryhot did really well when it was just you know normal before it was all the square to square so um Justin how much experience have you have you have you delved into this world at all with like the Odysseies or the labs or basically every company has one now. Have you screwed around with that a little bit? Have you talk to me a little bit about about that? All all the time. Uh my collection of putters uh my collection of putters continues to grow and uh I just, you know, I I I try the new technology and I try the the labs, the Odysseies, the whatever you want to call it, whoever makes them. And uh whether it’s just uh whether it’s just more of a a uh a centerbalanced um mallet putter or a zero torque, low torque, square to square type of putter. Um I’ve tried them. Uh they’re I I love the idea of them. I do. So do I. Yeah. I like the idea of them makes so much sense just to return the club face uh as square as possible coming through. I do think it takes a little aspect of feel away, which is something uh that I I think is really big for putting especially for me. So, uh I tend to always end up back with a blade plumber’s neck uh Anzer style, Newport style, whatever you want to call it, uh type of putter. And well, that’s this is where these conver well this is where these conversations get fun because you need to be, you know, and it’s not a lack of performance or it’s not this putters these putters don’t work thing. It’s, you know, it’s it’s um and Cody, I’m going to let you kind of run on this one, but um this is why putter fitting is so important. You know, the the the lower torque putters, you know, in my experience, you know, working or or talking to any tour players, some of them some people love them. Like you have your absolute instant adopters that think they’re the greatest thing since sliced bread. And then you have your field players, which I would call you, Justin, a pure field player. um that tend to wrestle with them a little bit. You know, like, you know, people that like to see a a a toe kind of release and kind of do what it’s supposed to do. Um you know, some of the comments that I’ve heard back is that those low torque putters kind of fight you a little bit. You’re having to work hard to, you know, to to kind of make the stroke that you want. So, Cody, I’m going to ask you, fitting players into these lower torque putters, what are the benefits that you see? And then what are the challenges that you see? Um obviously, it’s player specific, but just in a broad sense. Mhm. Yeah. You’ve got so you’ve got so many different, you know, setups and and the way guys move and what they what their movement patterns are and the profiles of their stroke. So it’s, you know, and that’s why we say we we feel like we have something for everybody in ter, you know, not just one category of a square to square zero torque because, you know, you you start looking at players whether it’s Justin or other players who have putted with something with, you know, a forward CG and and something in a blade style, uh, where you sort of more or less drag the, you know, drag the CG into the ball and and that has matched up with either their profile or their feels. and they’ve they’ve developed, you know, repeatability over that over the years and uh and clearly that’s matched up with, you know, Justin’s setup and the way he moves a putter and and other players. So, you know, you’ve got to be careful because if you just go and, you know, we just start introducing a new putter like a a square to square into something, you know, into maybe his just normal setup and and the way he moves the putter, it may not balance to the stroke. So, he’s constantly fighting the resistance or lack of resistance to that. So it equates to, you know, could equate to, you know, start line inefficiencies or speed control because you just don’t have that face awareness. So I think that’s a that’s a, you know, a battle we have to constantly look at as we’re, you know, measuring players, whether it’s on Quintic or working with players on the putting green is is sort of seeing what type of balance and uh and setup of the putter more or less allows the putter to have less resistance in their putting stroke. And that may be a blade um a plumber neck type blade or it may be a a square to square. And so I think uh on the flip side of that, players who struggle with, you know, and there there are players on the PGA Tour who struggle with hitting the face uh in the center a lot and and with you know, I mean they’re all good putters. There obviously they’re there for a reason, but you know, inconsistencies in rotation. Um, and then we also see guys who have a right miss tend to uh that tends to combat that a little bit. So, you’ve got a couple things we can look for um in terms of like what how they’re moving the putter and what their stroke profile looks like and how we can set that putter up to produce a better start line um and you know and better speed control and hitting the center of the face. Is it is it fair to say that um because I’ve said this for a while since these things started hitting. I mean, even when we brought square to square when I was still at Callaway, I’ve always said like these putters specifically, you need to get fit into them. Like a fitter needs to say, “Okay, after everything we’ve tried, this is where you need to go.” And I’ve I’ve always been kind of believer that they are they are really really good putters. If you’re struggling, if you’re struggling and you need to get back to stasis, the lower torque putters are like, you know, kind of plug and play to kind of fix you like to get to create fair face awareness because I feel like when you start struggling, it’s the face that you lose. But I’ve yet to see those putters make a good putter Ben Krenshaw, right? Like I’ve never seen that jump. But I’ve seen people that are struggling go into these things and really really turn themselves into pretty good putters uh when they didn’t have it before. So, so Justin, you know, um, like of the models that you’ve tried, and it’s okay this is a brand agnostic show, but of the models that you’ve tried, like what ones were close, like what, you know, was there any was there an Odyssey model or a lab a lab model that kind of caught your eye? Uh, I’ve tried every lab model. Um, the uh the newest one with the uh the kind of neck on it. Uh I’m not sure what it’s called. The Oz Oz neck or Oz Hoszle, something like that. Yeah. Um that one was close. Um but it’s it’s still like I don’t know what it is about those putters. Like theoretically it makes like I said earlier, it makes so much sense. Like it but I feel like it almost turns you into a robot. Like if you’re not like like if you’re not aimed perfectly or if you’re not like if something’s off like the like it’s going to go exactly where you want it to go but it may not be I don’t know it may not be correct if that makes sense. Um I’m having a hard time I’m having a hard time explaining it but uh I’ve tried some of the Odyssey ones too. Um, and uh I mean they’re like I said it they make sense all like all all of them do. Even the like the tailor the new tailor made ones the all of them. And like I think if you really struggle keeping the club face square or if you just want to get the club face back to zero at impact or somewhat close to zero at impact I think it’s perfect for you. Um like I think they could help the everyday golfer for sure. Um but um yeah, it’s I it’s strictly a feel thing for me and it it just I always end up back with something more traditional. Okay. So So Cody, Odyssey is obviously number one putter on tour every week. I think it I think it was the number one putter on tour every week except for like two weeks last year or something crazy. Um, so of the of the staff or the the players that you have in the field every week, how many guys, and we’re going to we’re going to jump off this zero torque thing here in a second. I just want to end it with this. Mhm. How many of your players are actually wanting to experiment with it just to try it out? Because you have your guys like Xander and, you know, and and Sam Burns and those guys are, you know, they’re not going to like Sam Burns isn’t going to try a zero torque putter. It’s just not his Xander’s going to try maybe one. I don’t but like what in your experience like who’s testing these things beyond the players that put them in play? I mean we have a obviously we’ll have a number of players that that will test him from a staffer standpoint. I mean we’ll probably have um you know we’ll have 10 or 15 guys that will test these. Uh like you said I mean Sam Burns number one putter on tour um this year. He probably not in in a in a testing mode, if you will. Uh and rightfully so. Uh but he’s in one in one of our new AI models, so perfectly fine. Uh but no, it’s we will have 10 or 15 uh 10 or 15 guys that that will test them, and we’ll have we have a number of guys that we think that that can benefit. We’ll see. We’re just starting to seed these the new square to square tryh hot putters out. Um so we’ll see what comes out of it this this offseason and in the next few weeks. But um yeah, I mean guys that uh you know we look look at the analytic side and starting to look okay their mis distribution um you know one are they you know are they struggling and would they be open to testing this time of year as some of them are still fighting for their tour cards. So you know you you have to weigh all this out but I I think there’s a number of them that could benefit from something like this that could provide some you know basic impact consistency if you will. Uh, and and a lot of it, you know, with is paired with, you know, the insert. So, it’s, you know, speed, consistency, starting it online, hitting it in the center, those those things. I mean, I don’t know of any player that doesn’t want to do those things. Uh, so, um, yeah, I I I think we’ll have we’ll start sending them out. Uh, we have been I think we even built Justin once a couple weeks ago. Like I said, we’re always trying. Um but but we have a range of we we have so many uh so many you know different models that we can choose from. And obviously with this new line of square to square tri we’ll have three models. It’s a Rossia 7 and a Jailbird. And the one I think the one cool thing before we move on on these is that where most of this category has had a lot of face progression where the shaft goes into the back. We we’ve been working on this for like you know probably well over a year is trying to get the CG where most of those the CG’s back and the shaft axis runs through that. That’s how you sort of get this type of balance um and weight distribution. We’ve moved the CG forward. It’s a multi-material construction. So we’ve been able to get the shaft more in a if you will conventional looking position. So, not only do you get access to the technology, but you can get it where it’s you don’t have the shaping, you don’t have to use a specific grip to put your hands in position and trying to alter a player setup uh around the putter where we can use more of a, you know, a conventional look and and sort of, you know, integrate that into what the players already doing. Well, that’s where technologies that’s where technology is getting cool, too, is you know, even in a short time with, you know, this discovery of these zero torque putters, you know, people are getting better and better at, you know, figuring out where the shaft needs to go. All them, you know, like tryhot obviously as a platform, um, very successful platform from like 20 years ago and we brought it back out, I think 2022, did very, very well. Obviously, very stable. I think we had the highest MOI putter for a while there and it was in like kind of blade putter. Um, so, you know, really, really cool stuff. But the one thing that I I told uh Justin before we started recording was this is how crazy gear people are. And you tell me if you agree with this, Cody. So he putts with a PXG Brandon putter, which is like a 009 or a ping answer, you know, call it what you will. It’s one of those ping knockoffs, right? I have a hunch that in the next 5 years, technology is going to go so far that in five years, everybody’s going to want like a Newport or a ping answer again. Like is this gonna go back to like 32? It’s gonna go back to really light heads, whippy shafts. Do do you think there’s a world where that happens? And I think it’s gonna be out of I literally think it’s going to be out of like, well, screw it. I just want to go back to what I was doing before, like just to keep it interesting. It very well could. I mean, you know, I I’ll say this is and we we track, you know, obviously the performance of um how you know the usage of square to square zero torque models on tour and of of all brands and you sort of you’ve seen it level out a little bit. Obviously, the market’s doing something different. Um, as as it benefits a lot of regular golfers and amateur golfers, but uh it’s sort of neat because you you know, now uh for years, I mean, obviously there were a lot of a lot of usage with blades. I mean, we’re 80% mallets because we can build, you know, we can build mallets that play like blades uh and obviously mallets with more stability, but you get all the alignment benefits out of, you know, different mallets. So, it’s it’s going to be interesting to see where it goes because it’s, you know, some of the the zero torque models um have, you know, there’s still a lot of testing going on and we’re still introducing a lot and we still feel like there’s a lot of players that could benefit from it, but as far as the usage on tour, I mean, it’s sort of it’s pretty level right now.