Tom & Sam catch up with Zac to hear about his latest trip to the south of England playing some of the famous Surrey heathlands as well as the links of the South Coast. It was really interesting to hear about The Tree Farm and the work of Tom Doak & Kye Goalby as the project approaches the build phase. It was a heavyweight itinerary (including Sunningdale, The Addington, Woking, Worplesdon, St George’s Hill, Walton Heath, as well as Rye, Royal St George’s & Deal on the south coast) – made even tougher without a passport!
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Watch [Applause] [Music] [Applause] this. No way. [Music] [Applause] Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Cookie Jar Golf Podcast. I am Tom Mills and today I’m joined by Sam Williams. Greetings Thomas. And we’ve got PGA pro and founder of the butt club, Zack Blair. Zach, welcome to the podcast. Yeah, thank you guys for having me. No, no, our pleasure. Absolutely. As always, guys, you can get in touch with us on CookieJargolf on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube. And if you are new to the podcast, please do consider subscribing. There are over a hundred other episodes of us waxing lyrical about golf with different guests and on different topics. So, please do have a little skim through the back catalog. But in the meantime, we’ll just dive straight into it. I mean, for those of of our listeners who aren’t aware of of yourself and the project that you’ve embarked on in in the in the past few years, really, I mean, tell us a little bit about um you know, your your your route into golf, professional golf, and and this whole thing about the butt club, which I mean has just grown arms and legs into this mutant golf machine that you’ve built. I mean, it’s fantastic. It’s incredible what you’ve done. Um tell us a little bit about the butt club. What’s it all about and what’s the goal? Yeah. So, originally it started um you know with this idea of of building a national club in Utah. Um that’s kind of what the the dream was you know to have this really cool golf course where people from all over the world came and you know played golf and stayed there and you know were surrounded by a bunch of other people like them. Um, it’s it was obviously, you know, something that when it started, I didn’t I didn’t necessarily think it was going to be easy, but it was harder than I thought to kind of get people to kind of buy into the idea, more so locally. Um, obviously you need a lot of money to uh build a golf course and a golf club. So, you know, you need land, you need investors, you need all of this stuff to kind of go the right way. And uh you know when we kind of got into a lot of that stuff in Utah um you know the more I learned and the more we got deeper into the process it was kind of evident that it might not be kind of the perfect place to start or try and do that. Um you know we had we had been running with it for a handful of years um hoping to make it work and just you know never got off the ground like I wanted it to. Um, and you know, we continued to kind of do some events and, you know, make some merchandise and people seemed to really like a lot of that stuff. So, it kind of shifted into more of this um, you know, social club, I guess, that uh, is just all about golf, I guess. But, um, it’s been really cool. you know, we we’ve we host a handful of events each year. And like I said, we make some some merchandise like hats and head covers and and all that sort of stuff, which is really, you know, something that I enjoy about it from my creative side. It’s cool to do the putter head covers and and all that sort of stuff. And people seem to like it. So, you’re a pretty modest man, Zach, cuz I think uh the the the the demand for this stuff is through the roof. I think for most clubs with a golf course, they would give their they’d give their right arm for the kind of the merchandise that you guys are are kind of, you know, putting into people’s hands out there and it’s got a huge global following. I think that’s that’s awesome. I’m really curious though because obviously a huge amount of what you’re about and everything that you kind of maybe share socially and everything that the tree farm stands for seems to be rooted in a really strong passion for architecture. Was that the sort of burning reason behind trying to get the buck club off the ground initially or was it more kind of experiential trying to create a different sort of feeling around a golf course for one of a better term? Yeah, I mean really how it all kind of started was I had I had got out on tour and I had started seeing a lot of really cool golf courses. Um you know really really good kind of golden age architecture type clubs and uh you know seeing that it was kind of like wow we don’t have anything like this in Utah. I think it would be really cool to try and do something like this that really just kind of focused on um being all about golf, you know, the experience as well, but like you know, just having a really really like worldclass golf course and having this kind of national club around it. That’s definitely how it started. Um, and then obviously as we kind of learned more and it shifted into other, you know, other avenues of kind of some of the events and some of the merchandise, I kind of stepped back and was like, “Wow, there’s this huge group of people that, you know, probably would never be able to to join this club or, you know, afford the initiation fee maybe, you know, like maybe we should do something different.” And that’s where the idea of TBC kind of shifted into when we do it, we still want to do something like that in Utah, but maybe making it more of like a a public type place with that kind of Sweden’s Cove type model where a bunch of people can go out and, you know, maybe rent the course for the day or or, you know, come in and visit and see it and it’s not really breaking the bank to to go stroke some sort of initiation fee or something like that. Yeah, I guess the access in golf in America, you know, there’s it’s a really expensive pastime out there. And I guess we know we’re naturally going to come on and talk about your trip to England um shortly. But, you know, I think that whole momentum of golfers that actually don’t want to be wedded to a country club, you know, can’t afford $100,000 joining $300,000 joining fee rather. Um it feels like, you know, maybe the buck club’s almost become a bit of a catalyst for that. And it’s sort of, you know, there’s a number of places that, you know, I’ve not been to Sweden’s Cove, I’ve not been to Bandon Junes, but they’ve become a really big kind of identity spot, haven’t they, for for golfers who don’t buy into the traditional country club mentality, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. It’s just um you know, Sweden was really the first place that I was um it was just so different um in terms of how they kind of operate. And it’s it’s obviously changed a little the bigger that they’ve got, but um you know I I think it would be cool to do something more on the public side because that’s just something that I think would fit that what the brand has turned into and kind of fit the area of Utah a little better than you know your your typical private club model. It’s the the other thing just just on the on your on your playing career as well. You mentioned that playing kind of out on tour and, you know, seeing the number of venues you were playing kind of ignited a bit of passion for the architecture, you know, and yet, you know, sometimes you could almost criticize the, you know, the regular tour venues for being maybe a little kind of similar, you know, different different brand of architecture perhaps to the kind of golden age. You know, a lot of those courses have become maybe a little less relevant over time. you kind of building sort of stuff around your tours and and and kind of able to play other places or was there a specific spot where it was like, yeah, do you know what on tour this was just the one for me? You know, this really just kind of ignited a massive passion for it? Well, yeah, I would definitely say I didn’t draw a ton of inspiration behind a lot of the the tour venues. um a little different. But I will say the real kind of like aha moment was um my rookie year playing the Greenbryer and just you know seeing how different TPC Old White was to anything else that I had played. Um, it was kind of my first, you know, Rainer McDonald kind of experience and, uh, it was definitely like, wow, this is really, really cool and really unique. And that that was kind of the first idea for TBC was being and it was honestly before anybody else had started doing it. Um, was this idea of maybe doing this kind of Rainer inspired golf course. um which you know they they you know some of them just look way different than you know something else that you would see normally. And obviously now there’s a handful of places that have kind of gotten into that. I know that um that place up in uh god what is it? Um I played there earlier this year. It’s the south course at Arcadia Bluffs. Um you know they did this whole kind of Chicago golf club inspired rainer um type place and it turned out really cool. Um, I’m glad that I’m glad where I’m at now. I’m glad that that idea never kind of got off the ground. Um, I don’t think it would have turned out as good as I would have hoped. But, uh, I’ve definitely learned a lot in the last five or six years. And you’ve gone through quite a process really in terms of what’s happened with the Buck Club and and the plans for the golf course that you that you wanted to design. you’ve settled in a a property in uh in in the Carolinas with a with a tree farm. So, tell us a little about tell us a little bit about the tree farm and who’s involved and and you know, any information you can give us really. Yeah, so again a pretty um colorful, you know, story of how it how it all got there. Um, again, the more I kind of learned about it and the more we saw how the Utah thing was going to be a a bit of an uphill battle to kind of get it off the ground, we started thinking, you know, what would be the best place to do something like this and have, you know, the greatest chance of success. And the the things that we kind of saw early on were, you know, Utah is kind of a short season for golf. You know, you got winter that can come early and stay late and then you’ve got pretty hot summers. Um so your your kind of sweet spot for your golfing window is shorter than somewhere maybe down south. Um and then the travel aspect as well. you know, Utah is kind of pretty isolated out on the the west side of, you know, America. There’s not a lot of places that you’re just kind of driving through Utah to, you know, to get to somewhere else. Um, so the the travel and the seasonality of it were big catalysts in looking somewhere else. And it was kind of easy like, all right, let’s go look in the southeast United States. there’s a massive population that can get there relatively easy by car and you know going up and down the east coast you’re obviously traveling through other states to get to you know the northeast or the very you know Florida and stuff like that. So, it it was like, let’s let’s look in, you know, let’s look in the southeast a bit. And I had some friends, uh, Andy Johnson in particular, that was just down in Aken, maybe hosting an event at, uh, Aken Golf Club and was just like, man, the the land around here is like really cool, sandy soils, good topography, they love golf around here, you know, they got the masters close by. And so I literally just started um like looking on the internet for pieces of property that were basically between like 250 and 500 acres um of like sandy soil um kind of parcels and ended up finding, you know, a bunch obviously and kind of narrowed it down to a handful that looked like they were in good spots in terms of, you know, easy to get to and you know, having enough kind elevation and land movement to make interesting golf without having to kind of create it and ended up finding the piece of property that we bought um last year and kind of went out right during the middle of the pandemic. It was pretty wild. I can’t believe we actually did it. It was like like literally in the middle like no one was traveling and uh somebody had bought the property kind of next door and we were like dude we can’t lose this property. we got to go we got to go check it out and take a look and ended up doing that and all of us were like yeah man we got to uh we got to kind of close on this thing and ended up doing it so it was pretty wild you’ve got to love America you’ve got to love it hang on just a sec Tom 500 acres of sandy soil I mean like in England there is not 500 acres you can buy having to mortgage every person in the country it is incredible like you go I mean I’ve been to Aken there is just so much space out there and so much land that’s in that’s just insane. Like I’m just looking on the internet for 500 acres of sandy soil, please. It just pops up. I mean, it’s probably I mean, I tell people the story and they’re like, I mean, that can’t be true. And I mean, like that that is literally how it happened. Found it and was like sitting on our couch and was just like maybe we should go like do this. Like it was there was nothing going on. The PGA tour was um kind of done at that time. all sports in America and and around the world were obviously like shut down and it was like I was just honestly like kind of sick of people like um just like saying it was never going to happen and being like you know I I always knew once we actually had a property you know we could get the momentum going behind it and kind of get it going and so yeah really like kind of back into it and that’s that’s how it kind of started and we didn’t know like is is this going to be TBC or is this something different? So, we also had this kind of like weird situation for everyone involved like are you involved in this project or is this like a completely different project? And there was definitely some kind of weird times, but it all ended up working out and, you know, got into a good spot and got a really good group of people kind of helping me out and uh really happy with kind of where the tree farm’s at. And um actually starting on uh Thursday, so in two days kind of dozer’s there, Kai’s Kai’s driving down to kind of get shaping going and it’s pretty exciting. I mean, that’s amazing. I can’t even imagine what the person who was selling it listed it as on Google for you to find 500 acres of sandy and acidic soil. But um so you get there, you you you’ve seen this this property on the internet, you get there, you hop the fence, you walk on, you think, “Yeah, this is it.” Do you just kind of look around and think, “Okay, there’s the clubhouse, right? This is one.” And then just walk or you know, how does that process even from scratch? How does that even start? It’s It sounds just daunting just thinking about it. Yeah. again. I mean, there’s been a lot of evolution to it and it’s definitely a lot different than, you know, the first the first day we were on site. I think there was like maybe like four or five of us and it would, you know, we’re just walking on foot and you know, 500 acres is is not a a small place and you know, it’s like overgrown, walking through like bushes and you know, you’re sitting there going like, man, this would be a really cool hole. And then you would walk and you’d be like, we got to be up like where green would be and you’d be like, no, dude, we’ve only gone like 100 yards, you know? So it it was really really different and you know now obviously you know you get on Google Earth and you start looking at the top too map and you start seeing things and I had never done any of this before. So it was very um you know basic type stuff of like I think this is where something could go. We could do a hole here. We could do a hole here. obviously getting people a lot smarter than me involved like Tom Do and Kai Goldby have really um helped make the routing what it is. But uh yeah, it was a it was a very um cool experience that that first day and I definitely know that me and the handful of people that were out there will definitely never forget that. How much of that rooting is is sort of in the dirt, walking the course, you know, staking out the green sites and how much of is it is kind of Tom working with topographical maps and trying to just be really practical around it? Yeah. So how he kind of operated and you know the the first kind of routings that I put together were usually just, you know, solely based off of kind of having an idea of what the property was, you know, walking around it, driving around it enough to know what things were and then looking at the map and being like, “These could make cool holes.” Um, and and it was probably like not the the best routing or whatever, but I thought it was pretty good for kind of our first crack. And then when Tom got involved, it was really really cool to see his process, you know, which was a lot different of him basically throwing together a handful of routings just looking at the map before kind of going into the site visits, you know, because I mean he’s so good with with those topo maps that I mean he kind of can see immediately like there’s a good green site, there’s a good green site, there’s a good green site, and then just kind of tying those holes together to kind of make, you know, a seamless routing work together. And that’s where I really struggled where I could find um you know like some really really good holes, but I would get stuck in a certain spot trying to get out and then you’re kind of compromising, you know, making some, you know, maybe not great holes to kind of fit in your holes that you think are great. And he’s a lot better at at kind of getting out of those situations than uh anybody else that I know, obviously. Um, obviously over here in the UK, we we managed to cram some pretty good golf courses onto some pretty small land. Um, 500 acres is a fair old amount of land. I mean, are you what’s your plans in terms of number of holes, number of courses uh that you’re you’re hoping to to put on this this plot? Yeah. So, the the main course um that we kind of have getting ready to be built right now, um I I think we did a good job with it of, you know, holes aren’t just right on top of each other, but there are areas, you know, within the routing where you do have a lot of interaction with other holes. And that was kind of something that was big to me um that I wanted was to, you know, have that social aspect of seeing other people golf. Um I just think it’s fun to be able to interact with, you know, other groups or friends and, you know, get sneak peeks of certain holes and then kind of come back to that area. So Tom kind of referred to his routing as like he’s a little bit of a landhog. I think it it was something like he said that one time. So, I mean, he didn’t use all 500 acres, but let’s say he used like 270 of them. Um, and and so there’s definitely room for some other stuff to go on out there. Um so within that 500 you know we’ll have the 18hole course the kind of practice facilities um the irrigation pond and then kind of all the built environment of the clubhouse and the lodging. Um and then we’ll have room for kind of another you know third nine if you will. Um, some inspiration, you know, came from, uh, like Morontaine or, uh, you know, the the the Green Nine that’s still around at St. George’s Hill, like something a little shorter or, quirkier that’s a little different from the main course, but will give you kind of that auxiliary set of holes to be able to send people out that come in early or want to stay late. It can be the most rewarding as well, can’t it? I mean, we were we recently went to Northern Ireland. In fact, I think I might might mention to you when we’re messaging and and we played the 9-hole course at Castle Rock that’s there. They’ve got an 18hole championship course, but there’s a 2 and a half thousand yard 9-hole through the dunes and and just having those little bolt-ons can be it just makes it, you know, it’s like sometimes a second loop’s too much, but you want a bit more golf and and it just totally totally makes it. I I guess kind of just just moving a little bit into the recent England trip or UK trip, whatever. Um, first big congratulations on getting over here cuz I don’t I obviously we’d been messaging a little bit before you came over. I’d got wind that you were coming over on I’d heard it referred to as like an inspiration trip or an inspo trip or something. I don’t know if that’s accurate. Um, but yeah, just just talk us through the trip and then we can obviously get into the into some of the some of the courses that you visited, but um the idea was it is that fair to say it was like a sort of bit of an inspo sort of visit, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, uh, Heathland Golf has has been something that has kind of caught my eye in the last, I would say, 2 years or really ever since we uh, were looking at this property in Aken or had visited this property. Um, and then I remember specifically kind of Kai had come out one time and I asked him if there were any um, golf courses or places, you know, where he felt the topography or the kind of setting was similar and he had mentioned, you know, a handful of Heathland golf courses. And I was like, that would be really cool to kind of do that in, you know, in America. Obviously, we can’t grow the heather um you know, exactly like it is over there, but the the whole aesthetic and the the look and and kind of the movement of those golf courses was something that uh you know, I really um was was trying to trying to do with this place. So, we kind of had this idea that it would be a good idea for a handful of us that are involved in the project to go check out those places right before construction started to kind of give us some really good inspiration, right? Uh going into the build. So, we had a really good kind of itinerary ready to go for I don’t know like five or maybe like five months ago or four months ago, but obviously the world was um like locked down at that point still and traveling um over to England was was pretty difficult. Uh so it basically got just like pushed aside and it was kind of like this isn’t going to happen because you know we’re starting this fall. Um and then kind of last minute um Will Smith from the Outpost Club, you know, invited us to to tag along for this match at deal that they do every year and we were able to kind of piece together a handful of stops before and after um you know in the in the London area. So it was it was pretty crazy. So like I definitely it wasn’t like a last second trip which makes the passport story even crazier like you know we kn like I knew that this trip was happening and then I also knew that like the the actual trip that we were going on that we did end up going on was happening for like multiple months. Um which makes it even crazier too. So, for for everyone that like hadn’t heard or doesn’t know, I was on my way to the airport like filling out the the forms that we needed to like get into the country that my flight was in like 3 hours. And uh I was like, “Holy my passport uh is expired.” And I remember like looking at it being like, “This isn’t real.” like thinking it was a dream or something and like just staring at the expiration date thinking like please change, please change, please change. And it it had it had only it had expired like a week ago or or something like that. Two weeks ago. Um, so it it was pretty like like my heart just dropped and I was like this is so sad cuz like I’ve been wanting to see these places and and Kai was going over and he had kind of jumped through a bunch of hoops to make it happen and everyone was going to be there and we were going to have this big kind of jam session about what we were going to do on these holes and how all this stuff would work out and I was like man this like really really sucks. Um, so I didn’t really know what to do. I I I was with my friend in the car that was like coming with me and I had to just like drop him off at the airport and be like, “All right, have fun. I’m not going.” And uh he thought I was like kidding for the longest time. He was like, “What? What do you mean you’re not coming?” And I was like, “I told you my passport’s expired. Like I can’t come.” So, um, luckily I have a friend that, uh, his name’s Brandon Harot, that any situation in life, this guy has has done it or or has some sort of advice on it. And he was like, “Oh, man. No, no worries. Like, I’ve done this like multiple times. You’re just going to hop on a plane. You’re going to go to San Francisco and you’re going to go to like the passport agency and and you’ll be out of there in like four or five hours. You’ll be able to probably hop on a flight tonight.” And I was just like, there’s no way that like, you know, passports take like months to get and get renewed. Like there’s no way this is real. And I started like looking into it and obviously with COVID stuff is a little harder and you know, you have to have a a an appointment to get into these passport agencies, but ended up somehow getting a getting a a meeting at the Dallas Passport Agency. So, I ended up hopping on a flight later that night, flew down to Dallas, had an 8:00 meeting the next morning, kind of first in, got in, went through the whole thing, and had a passport like an hour later, and uh like bumped up my flight, hopped on a flight to Atlanta out of Dallas and connected to London and was there kind of the next morning. I literally only missed uh one round of golf, which was um pretty crazy. Tom, all I’m saying is if you’re ever in Dallas and you see a a US customs official walking around with a butt club hat bragging about his new putter head covers, you got to ask some searching questions of Zach. That’s all I’m going to say. So, we funny enough, we’ve been messaging, hadn’t we? Cuz you were doing St. George’s Hill, I think, on day one. But didn’t you go and play Warples, I think, in the morning. You got off a flight at seven o’clock in the morning, played Warples, then played St. George’s Hill. I think a friend of ours, Sam, came and played with you. Um, yeah, shout out to Link from the Road. Uh, Sam Cooper played with you in the afternoon. He’s like, “Yeah, Zach was on great form.” I was like, “Mate, you just threw the ring over the last 48 hours. I’m surprised he wasn’t asleep on the first tea.” Yeah, there was definitely a moment um kind of late in the Warpston round where it was like I like there’s no way I’m playing this afternoon. Um and then I kind of got a I got a bit of a bolt of energy kind of rolling through the gates and kind of pulling up to the clubhouse at St. George’s Hill because again that was one of the places that Kai was like, “Yeah, there’s some very similar stuff at the tree farm land, you know, to some of the stuff out at St. George’s Hill. So, that was as much of any course that I wanted to see. That was one that I was so pumped for and uh it definitely kind of lived up to the hype for me and it was really really cool to kind of, you know, that really be the kind of startup to that trip. Well, there’s some really cool architectural stuff going on at St. George’s Hill and just even just like the the first and 10th TE’s basically being on top of each other going opposite directions. It’s all pretty cool stuff. But talk us through the courses you played and um you know what what were the big takeaways? What did did Heathland golf live up to your expectations? Yeah. Yeah. So we uh started out the the group played Swimly Forest the day that I missed and then Warpston the next morning, St. George’s Hill that afternoon, uh Royal St. Georgees the next day, Deal the next two days, um Rye the next day, then popped back in and played uh Woking and um Walton Heath Old and then uh both courses at Sunningale Sun Trip. So, it’s a pretty good itinerary and you’ve managed to to squeeze a bit of links in there as well. I mean, did the did did the Heathland golf did did it live up to expectations? Did you manage to get the inspiration that you were you were seeking? Oh, yeah, for sure. I thought um it it was so fun and so cool and, you know, a a little different. I I think I didn’t really I’d never played anywhere with like Heather. Um I had just seen pictures of it and just been like, man, this stuff is so beautiful. It’s like the coolest look and texture and everything like that. But man, definitely left leaving the trip going like we do not want Heather anywhere near the golf course. Brutal, isn’t it? It’s so brutal and everyone is looking for balls every single hole, you know, and it was it was tough. And it was it was cool though to see um how it was managed at different places. You know, some places like Walton Heath, it was just like you’re not finding your ball. You know, there’s like no you no use even going in there. it’s kind of a little longer and it was just like full growth, you know, full coverage. And then there was places like Woking and maybe a little bit at Sunningale where it was a little more patchy and there was kind of, you know, chunks out taken out of it here and there that were just kind of grass or sandy scrapes or whatever. So, it was cool to see kind of the different um presentations of it. Some of them grade it as well. Like some courses you’ll see they’ll grade it as well. So you have like a form ladies I think isn’t it Tom where we play they’ve got like a first cut of heather then like a second cut of Heather and then the next is like it’s like your Walton Hay stuff you’re not finding it in there. Yeah. Yeah. So I definitely it definitely lived up to the hype though. It was just, you know, the I thought some of the land was so cool and the architecture was good and there was some really cool holes and, you know, but mainly like the aesthetic was so pretty and I I really enjoyed kind of all the rounds that we played. Um, especially those those Heathland courses were really cool. Yeah, I I I we we messaged quite a bit about St. George’s Hill trip just just because of that one. think it’s um remiss not to mention a few things there, but I mean that course just really hits you in the mouth hard, doesn’t it? There’s so much crazy elevation and then you go only a few minutes away, you’ve got Sunningale, which is just a lot more, you know, it’s flatter land, but it’s a lot more intricate. There’s lots more kind of nuance to it. And they’re all actually really different. I’m quite curious. I I the you obviously visit a lot of clubs in the in the US. I would I feel like the golf club feel is very very different in the UK. I think partly some of the access stuff, you know, different types of membership and stuff. Did you notice a kind of massive difference in terms of the the club ethos maybe and like the just the general vibe around the places? Um, I think a lot of that probably comes from the access. You know, it seems like in the UK, I mean, honestly, like everywhere outside of America, it’s just America’s a lot more like shut off. You know, a private club, like you’re not calling up Pine Valley and being like, “Hey, I’m popping over from like England on a golf trip. Like, do you think you could squeeze us in?” They don’t do it. I’ve tried. I’ve tried. I feel like, you know, you could definitely get away with doing that at even the best clubs. um you know in England like it it it just happens. Um so there is kind of this you know different feeling around it. I don’t know really what it is but I think also just the way you know you guys play two balls and there’s just there’s just a different feel to it and it’s really cool. I definitely left leaving going like if there’s a way to incorporate like forsomes at the tree farm whether it’s afternoon rounds or whatever. It’s like the game is so social and it’s so fun. It’s like there were definitely times like at uh at Sunningale they were like all right we’re going to play like four balls and we were like do we have to like like we kind of we all want to play like we all want to play forsesomes. It’s no hardship is it playing forsomes. there’s no hardship at all. It’s just like, you know, it’s just fun. You know, you’re out there with everybody and it’s just a lot more social, I feel like. And America, there’s definitely this more, you know, pencil and card, keeping your score, that sort of thing. Where over there, it feels like it’s a lot more kind of out going out and having a good game. Like it doesn’t really matter what anyone’s shooting. It’s kind of like did we win the match or did we lose? Um, which, you know, it is a lot more fun, I I think, especially kind of with different levels of players. You know, you’re really just out there trying to hit shots and have fun and and kind of enjoy where you’re at, which it was really, really nice. I think in terms of uh in terms of vibe, I mean, I’ve been fairly open on this podcast. I think Woken has just got a sensational vibe to it with that that pavilion clubhouse thing and the two ball golf and it’s just I think it’s just such an amazing place for for going out and playing two ball golf whatever that may be if it’s foresomes or or or playing your own ball in two balls which um which clubs really you know hit hard that you weren’t expecting um or perhaps they they’re all worldies aren’t they? But which one did you were you really taken a back with? Sunningale for sure. I mean, I I figured that it was going to be really good. Everyone said it was going to be really good. Um, but definitely left leaving going like there’s like not a question what the best like 36 hole golf course in the world is. Um, at least that I’ve played. you know, I’ve played Royal Melbourne, I’ve played Wingfoot, I’ve played LA North and South and Monterey Peninsula, and um I really really left going like there’s not even a question. It’s just both both of the courses are so good. Um I feel like all the other ones there’s a secondary course if you will where at the old and the new at Sunningale if they weren’t called the old and the new I don’t think you know you you wouldn’t be like oh that’s the second course they’re both just like really really world class. So that one was um it was like again I expected it to be good and it was just like way better than I expected. Um which is kind of saying a lot I feel like but honestly like didn’t didn’t play any that weren’t good. Like you said it was a really good itinerary. I was really sad I missed uh Swinley but uh we’ll just there there’s a ton more courses that I wish we could have saw. Um, so I’ll definitely have to pop back over soon and go check them out. It’s always nice to have something that you’ve got to come back for though, isn’t it? You know, so it’s it’s always nice to have that feeling. Now, I’m gonna ask you one question about Sunningale. You probably know what’s going to what’s coming. I’m not asking you which one you prefer here, but it’s the question that everyone always asks when you’ve been to Sunningale. If you’ve got 10 rounds left at Sunningale, how do you split them across the old and the new? How many on which? Yeah, I I said uh I did on Twitter I said 64 new. Um I my favorite stretch of golf was probably like 7 through 12 at the old, but overall um I enjoyed I enjoyed the golf a little more on the new. Um it, you know, they were so cool. I thought the green complexes were um I enjoyed the green complexes a little more on the new. Um but I mean the old was really cool and charming and um had had a bit more quirk to it which I really liked. Uh but if I was going 10 round split, I would go 6’4 new. It’s like picking your favorite child though, isn’t it really? It’s an impossible question, but it’s always interesting to know how you kind of how you kind of split you how how you’d split them, you know. So, um, well, I mean, one thing on the new, you know, is the part the path threes are really strong. And, you know, we would spoke before about this. You know, I I personally think when you play a course, path threes are really kind of absolutely central to the experience. You know, I for some reason the par 3 kind of make or break a lot of golf courses in my view. And I think mo a lot of the places you played, you know, obviously Sonia has some absolutely fantastic par 3es, but there’s a whole host of them actually around the courses you were playing. And I think that was kind of a when you look at that itinerary, there’s a pretty common thread there of just great oneshot holes, right? Yeah. Which again, you know, is is one of the very strong characteristics of of the tree farm. Um, and there were literally like every hole at the tree farm, there was kind of a comparable hole on the trip that was like, “Oh, that could be a really cool look for this hole or that could be a really cool look for this hole.” So, I I I did leave kind of going like I feel like we got some really strong par 3es to to for some inspiration and then knowing that we got some really strong par 3s uh you know that will be built in the next handful of months which is exciting. That’s amazing. I was I was literally about to ask you know was it a success in terms of inspo and I mean you’re breaking ground in two days so that’s going to be I mean incredibly exciting for you. What what does it look like in terms of time frame now between uh between Thursday and and hitting the first T-shot? Yeah, so Kai is kind of coming in a little ahead of schedule and just kind of mainly going to be solo for I think the rest of the month. um just kind of getting some things started and roughed in and then a couple more guys on the crew kind of come down towards uh you know November, December and kind of things pick up kind of full steam uh at the start of the new year. But the course should be all shaped and grasped by um you know next springs summer. It’ll grow in kind of through the summer and the fall and then be ready 2023. So pretty uh right around the corner. So, I’m sure there will be some You got the climate, haven’t you? Got the climate. You can kind of This stuff takes quick. It’s like Yeah. Again, another just like learning experience from the Utah transitioning somewhere else was, you know, the seasonality of it growing. You know, pulling people out of good weather to come to good weather is a lot harder than pulling people out of bad weather to come to good weather. And then that kind of plays into the whole grow in as well. You know, if you if you kind of down in Aken, if you get a good if you get a mild winter, I mean, you’re growing in still kind of all throughout the the summer and the fall and, you know, a little bit through the winter where it’s like if you get somewhere where it’s snow, you know, it might take a course two or three years to like fully mature and grow in and be kind of ready for play. And is there any chance that the first T-shot’s not going to be you or is it going to be out my way? It’s me first. Um, I think there will be a big group of us that, you know, maybe maybe throw one up at the same time, but I’ll uh I’ll definitely sneak in a few before the the real first one. Absolutely. But uh Zach, you’ve been you’ve been really kind with your time and generous and giving us the time to talk about the tree farm and your trip to the UK and uh from from both from both of all three of us. We wish you all the best with the tree farm and uh and good luck with it really because it’s going to be a really fun 18 months for you now and uh you know what because of course you’re still on tour and still still playing as well so you’ll be busy. So good luck with it all. Yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thanks for your time. Watch this. [Applause] No [Applause] [Music] way. You think he doesn’t want to win?
