Surviving My Prison HELL: Tennis Legend Boris Becker on the REAL Story

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Boris Becker is one of tennis’s most iconic figures, a prodigy who won Wimbledon at just 17, a champion who reached the sport’s highest peaks, and a man who has faced extraordinary highs and devastating lows both on and off the court.

In this episode, Boris reflects on the mindset that drove him to success so early in life, the pressure of living in the global spotlight, and the personal challenges that tested his resilience. He speaks candidly about the sacrifices behind sporting greatness, the mental and emotional toll of fame, and what it takes to rebuild after public setbacks.

Boris also shares how he’s learned to balance ambition with perspective, why health and discipline remain central to his daily life, and what he now understands about passion, identity, and purpose beyond winning.

This is an intimate, thought-provoking conversation with a sporting legend who has lived at the very edge of triumph and adversity.

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📕 Chapters
00:00 – Introduction
00:51 – The Day of Sentencing (29 Apr 2022)
12:04 – How a Bank Loan Ruined Boris
22:41 – ALL the Money and Assets He Lost
32:10 – The Wimbledon Curse (vs. Nadal & Yamal’s Rise)
41:28 – Inside Wandsworth Prison
48:16 – First Nights Alone in Wandsworth
54:30 – Dealing with Hardened Inmates
1:01:18 – Stoicism: Lessons Like Marcus Aurelius
1:07:30 – Daily Death Threats and Gangs
1:18:30 – Coaching Inmates Like a Tennis Protégé
1:24:42 – Survival Instincts
1:38:03 – Who Stood by Boris
1:41:17 – Facing Mistakes Compared to Tiger Woods
1:48:04 – Thoughts on Novak Djokovic
1:51:44 – His Final Lesson: Finding Strength in Hell

#HighPerformance #borisbecker #tennis

You actually know what I did. Tennis champion Boris Becker jailed for 2 and 1/2 years. I lost everything. People wrote so much rubbish of what I supposedly have done. You lose all your rights. You’re nobody. But you’re Boris Becker, not in prison. The biggest shock, it’s a lawless place. I’m going to beat the [ __ ] out of you. I’m going to kill you. I’m going to slice your throat. I’m thinking he’s about to hurt me. Maybe I needed to go to prison. Maybe it was good for me. Boris, welcome to high performance. Never fear a storm. Be ready to adapt. The skill is staying true to ourselves. The book that you’ve written starts with the day that that you were sentenced. Yeah. And the fear of standing in that glass box, not really able to work out exactly what was going on comes across. so clearly in the book. What’s your abiding memory of of that day? Well, it was the 29th of April in 2022 and um uh it was my my partner then, my my wife now. Um it was her birthday. So, um on the same day of of all days of the year. So, the morning I went um we were living very close to Harris at the time and uh there’s a there’s a nice flower shop. So, I got a nice nice bunch of flowers. Um, and uh, you know, we we hugged each other briefly and then obviously we had to catch a cab. Um, on on my way um to the courts. Um, I picked up my son Noah cuz he he was with us the whole time. And uh, yeah, I I put my um my gray suit on. I put my Wimbledon tie on because I I feel that my Wimbledon um success and especially as a 17-year-old um was partly the reason I I was put so much on on the spot. Um I packed my bag. Now, how how do you pack? How do you pack if you don’t know whether you come home at night? How do you pack if you don’t know whether whether your sentence is is, you know, seven years? So, usually I’m a very good packer, but I was really confused, you know, the days before uh how how I’m going to pack. Um, so yeah, I had my little my little Puma bag and I, you know, went to Black Cab and with Lil and Noah and we went to court and then um then you wait you they they sit you behind the they call it the dog, you know, it’s a it’s a and you have to say goodbye to your loved ones before because if they found you, you know, guilty and if you if they give you sentence, then they take you straight from the dock down into the cellar. Uh um and there there’s a holding cell where you wait then um and and you can’t say goodbye anymore which is quite a brutal moment. So we were touching each other on the window with the hand and then we went down. Yeah. And what about the moment when the judge passed the sentence? Did you have any idea from your legal team exactly how long you were going to be incarcerated? Well, up until the judgment, there was still a 50/50 chance that I I don’t have to go. I was still hoping, you know, crossing my fingers that it’s a suspended sentence. Um, and so my my legal team, they were, you know, 50/50. They say, “Expect the worst, you know, and hope for the best.” And then, um, obviously the verdict, um, you know, the the judge, um, spoke is very long. So with very technical terms. So some of some of it you hear, some of it you understand, some of it you don’t. And there are moments when you have hope. There’s moments when you go, “Okay, it sounds like it’s going to be suspended.” And then there are moments when you go, “Oh my god, it’s giving me it’s giving me years.” And um because you’re behind uh a very thick glass window. Um um you don’t hear every word on top of it. So you have to really listen carefully um what it is. And then um there was a lot of talk about concurrently and and consecutively. And um you know before that nobody told me the difference. So you know when she said guilty in count four you know 30 month and then I had three three more counts where I was found guilty it was 18 month 18 month and 18 month and for a second I I I calculated that together which is 7 years. But what she said was then um consecutively and and concurrently and and for one of these you know I had to serve and that was the first one. But I didn’t know that until I went down into the holding cell, had a last meeting with my lawyers and then they were explaining to me that it’s it’s the whole mount is 30 month is not you know 7 years which is better but it’s still bad if I think about it now. Crazy. What do you think? It’s like a like a like a movie. I mean, it’s like a like a different life if you if you understand my life now, you know, in peace and in freedom, you know, with with my wife and and with my loved ones and and all those years before. Um, it’s it’s like a like a really scary movie. Yeah. There was a moment in the book where you recount your son Noah standing up and reading out a letter to the court. Would you tell us about that letter and the impact on you? Well, you were you asked obviously by your legal team uh that your your you know family, your friends, your loved ones then uh write letters uh addressing the judge um about your character and your personality and uh you know he he wrote a beautiful letter that you know it’s not only affecting his father but it’s also affecting his his life his mental health and and and you know that of his his brother and and you know we sometimes forget this is a um you know It’s a human story, right? Where there’s a person there’s a person and behind the name and and I felt like, you know, sometimes judges, of course, they have to make their decisions and the rulings and it’s it’s quite harsh sometimes, but but you want to you want to try to to give it a a human point of view of of, you know, the charge understanding, you’re you’re not only penalizing a man, you’re penalizing a whole family. So, you you you better be sure that this man is guilty. And how did you feel hearing your son say that his mental health is being affected by what’s happening? Yeah, it’s it’s a it’s a fact. I mean, it’s it’s something that I knew before. You know, it wasn’t it wasn’t a a short case. It was, you know, dragged for years. Um you know, it’s it’s um it’s sad. I mean, he’s good now. He’s good now. He’s a he’s a wonderful boy. But uh you know, what about my mother? What about my sister? You know, what about my partner? Everybody is affected by that. and and you know we sometimes don’t think about that but it’s a hard emotion for you because as the son you want to protect your mom as the dad you want to protect your son as the husband or the partner you want to protect your partner and you and you were the sort of the reason they were feeling like this so for you personally the emotions must have been difficult yeah I mean it’s it’s um you know obviously it’s my responsibility um it’s it’s you know bears on your shoulder you know you you you feel you feel guilty by putting them through something like that. Um, so you know, so now since I’m out, I’m I’m even more protective of them, uh, you know, of of, you know, being being, you know, a wise old man now. I’m just just trying to protect them for making stupid mistakes. Um, having grown children though, uh, uh, uh, good luck with that. You know, parenthood doesn’t stop when they’re 18. It it never really stops. Um, but it’s a it’s a big, you know, it’s they’re the laughs of my life, of course, but it’s a it’s a big responsibility. Yeah. If you’re in your 40s like me, then you will already know this, right? Energy is everything, isn’t it? You’ve got growing kids like I have. You’ve got aging parents also like me. You’ve got pressure at work. And somehow among all of those additional drains, you’ve got to be focused, resilient. You’ve got to be present all the time. But the truth is, right, energy doesn’t just show up when you need it. You’ve got to build it. And that’s where I believe this comes in. Vitals from heights. It’s two capsules a day. I take them every day. It’s packed with 20 essential nutrients, omega-3, all the B vitamins, iron, D3. This is designed by doctors. And importantly, it’s backed by thousands, and I mean thousands, of scientific studies, and third party tests. I promise you this isn’t hype, okay? This actually works because I feel it. And without this, I know that I would struggle. When I don’t take vitals, I miss it. It gives me that clean, consistent energy. So, I feel I can just show up for everything that matters. And this has everything I need and nothing that I don’t. So, if like me, you want to feel more focused and more in control throughout the day, head to heights.com/hp and use the code HP20 for 20% off Heights. Or just click the link in the description, but I promise you, you won’t regret it. When we had the X-Trader Gary Stevenson on the podcast, he said something that really struck me. Working harder isn’t the solution. If the systems around you aren’t set up to support your efforts, you simply end up burning out. And I think that’s a reality that so many business owners feel. I’ve certainly been there myself. You start with passion, then the admin takes over, chasing invoices, losing receipts, not getting paid. All of that gets in the way of what you actually wanted to build in the first place. And that’s why we’ve partnered with Tide because they’re not just offering people a business account, they’re offering clarity. It’s an all-in-one financial toolkit that will help you take back control. So, you can send your invoices, you can track your expenses, you can automate your taxes, you can even issue team cards all in one app. So, it’s quick, it’s simple, and it gives you time back to focus on what really matters. And if you sign up now using our code HP50 and spend £100 on your new Tide card, you’ll get £50 cash back. T’s and apply. Just hit the link in the description. I thought one of the interesting elements early on in the book is so you were sentenced to 30 months for fraud relating to a a a previous bankruptcy case. Well, well, let me let me correct you there because I was going to ask you um um you actually know what I did. You know what I was found guilty of? Yes, you I will ask you because that’s one part of the the book is and I give you a few minutes to think about it. Part of the book is that people wrote so much rubbish of what I supposedly have done. Yeah. And and I I’m I’m not I’m you I’ve been pretty non-emotional about that because I felt like it’s it’s a it’s my duty to say actually count four was for what? Count 10 was for what? Count 12 was for what? And if you read that, you go that was it. That’s it. That’s what he was he went to prison for. And I’m not I’m not saying today it’s wrong or right. It’s just I was trying to be matter of factly of count four got me 30 months. Now let me ask you, you know, you know what count four was? I don’t know what count four was specifically, but that’s very important. It is. But I’ll tell you what I thought before reading the book and after reading the book. When I read the the media coverage and looked on the internet, I thought Boris has been hiding money. He’s been sending money offshore. He’s been not declaring things. and they’ve finally caught him out and he’s been scuppered and he’s gone to prison. And then I read the book and it seems to me that you you went through a bankruptcy case. You had representatives who told you and again correct me if I’m wrong that it’s okay to use the money you’ve got to do the important things, pay child maintenance, cover mortgages, pay essentials. So you weren’t, it felt having read the book that you weren’t hiding those things. You were doing what you thought was right. And then here we are a few years later and you’re standing in a courtroom facing 30 months in prison because of the things that you thought were okay to do. Is my reading of that correct? It goes in the right direction. Yes. Um so let me let me tell you um a little bit how a bankruptcy case in the UK works because that’s the first misconceptions. Everybody knows how it works. Very few people actually do. So they um they declared me insolvent in um on the 21st of June in 2017. Yeah. For a loan to an English private bank for €3.5 million. Okay. The reason um that’s correct. I owed the bank €3 and half million. But the fight with the bank for 4 years was because they put on the loan at 25% interest, which in Germany and the rest of Europe is actually not legal. But in America and the UK, it depends what you signed on. So again, then someone should have told me, Boris, this interest rate is a bit high. I mean, are you sure? That didn’t happen. You know, it it it’s called the the small print, right? The small print I didn’t read. My fault. I’m not going to blame anybody. So that 25% I didn’t want to pay on the 3 and a half million. Okay, that was this case about. So when we had that hearing on the 17th of June, my representative were asking the judge give Mr. Becka three more months because he’s about to sell his Fina and Mayoka which was worth 10 million and then he can easily pay the debt to the bank. Yeah, it was not necessary to put me into insolveny because what happened after I still sold the finka and paid the bank the full amount back. So, so the ultimately 10 million that I owe to the bank is paid back in full. So that’s when it started. That’s when it started. So the week after you know you’re declared insolvent, you meet a a gentleman and his title is official receiver. He’s from the from the authorities and the official receiver now explains you exactly what bankruptcy in the UK means. He says from now on all your your private bank accounts are frozen. Um you have to declare um uh what you what you what you what you have you know real estate cash accounts and everything. Um and then you’re going to meet your trustee um a little bit later. So that bit later is important. I met him on the 13th of September. So I met the O uh it was just a couple days before Won started. That’s why I know remember the date. So I met them in in late June. So my question to the O was, okay, now since I can’t use my private accounts anymore, how do I pay my rent? How do I pay my mortgages? How do I pay child support? And how do I pay for my surgery that I’ve had after Wimbleton already organized in Switzerland? He says, um, do you have a do you have a company? Do you have a company account? I said, yes. He says, “Well, use that money, but once you meet the trustee, tell the trustee that you’ve used that money to to pay your bills.” That’s exactly what I’ve done. On the 13th of September, I told the trustee, I have paid what the O has advised me and um I don’t know yet whether the house in Germany is mine because my mother lives in the house. So I think she owns half half of it but give me two or three weeks I find exactly who owns the house. The house has a mortgage which we’ve done before the insolveny happened. So nothing to do with the insolveny actually. And I have shares in a in an sport internet company. I don’t know the amount and I don’t know the value. But here’s the the company’s director. That’s his email. That’s his phone number. But I’m happy also to find out. I found all this information out on the 28th of September. The reason I know all these dates is because it’s proven in court. Yeah. I mean, I can prove you that everything I’m saying is correct. So on the 28th of September, the trustee know heard that the house in Lyman is mine, that he has a mortgage and that um you know round the value of of the shares of the internet of of the the shares I have in the the internet company, the value was about £9,000. That’s what he sold it for. That was my crime, though. So, fast forward a couple of years. They they were accusing me of 29 different counts. 25 of these counts I found not guilty. And the four counts I was found guilty was that I took money out of my company account to pay my bills. That I didn’t declare the house in Germany. I didn’t declare that he has a mortgage. and I didn’t declare that I have shares in an internet company. Those were the four counts I was found guilty for. I’m not telling you whether I liked it or not because it’s is is, you know, it’s not important anymore. It’s not even that important whether I say it was wrong. I just want to say that’s exactly what happened to me. And if it can happen to you, to me, it can happen to you. It can happen to anybody. If the system wants to get you for whatever reason, the system usually wins. harsh words what I’m saying but I’m giving you the truth and you asking me before about the book that’s exactly what happened to me and why did the system want to get you know anybody else that won women at 17 I was I’m a big name I’m a huge fish I’m a huge fish for the for the prosecution I’m a I’m a huge you know personality meaning if they’re going to get Boris Becca they’re going to get everybody or anybody you know really they they are more powerful than you. And of course, I’m not here blaming anybody. Okay? I could have I could have had better advisers. I could have been smarter. I could have taken more time, but I didn’t think for these mistakes that I would ever be in prison. So, when you’re found guilty and the judge decides that you you did commit these crimes, how are you how are you kind of processing the fact that this is your truth, yet that judge is saying that you’ve broken the law? Like, what was the evidence that they had to say that what you’re saying is not true? It’s already too late then. You already passed the point. You already accepted everything that happened. Yeah. Um the most difficult weeks were the three weeks between um it was April the 8th when when I was found guilty to the sentencing April the 29th because in these three weeks you actually don’t know. You just know that you’ve been found guilty in four points and these four points I just explained but you don’t know what that means. Of course, you ask your legal team every day and they say, “Borch, there’s not another case in in in the British system that’s anywhere close to you.” So, we don’t have an example. We don’t know. There’s 15 other cases. They’ve done exactly what you’ve done. So, we don’t know. We don’t know. We can only tell you that it’s 50/50 and and you better prepare for the worst because if you find guilty for each count, you might have to go for many, many years. So, that was my preparation. You’re a man who spent his life being in control on the tennis court. That was your incredible innate ability. What did it do for your own mental health when you were so out of control in these three weeks? You know, for good or for bad, I’m I’m not really afraid of things. You know, I wish I would be more afraid in my life because some of the things that happened to me would have happened. But I’m not really someone that is afraid of going to women’s center court or going to a you know a a back alley somewhere or you know mixing with the wrong people. I’m not afraid of that. Um so I you know when when these things started to happen to me um I accepted them quickly. I said I can’t change them. You know they’re not in my control. Um, I have to do I have to do um the best I can to solve the situation. Um, and and and you know what the main thing here is acceptance. So the judge is right and I’m wrong. No questions asked. Whatever she says, I accept and I do what I’m told to do. That’s the only way to deal with it. And was that and was that learned in that process or had you always had that sense of acceptance? Um, you know, we we talk about stoicism a little bit in the book and I think uh without knowing I was probably my whole life is stoic meaning I I live very much in the moment. So so today counts you know yesterday is gone and tomorrow we don’t know what he’s going to bring. So um I guess that helped me you know later on in life accepting difficulties uh because ultimately I’m I’m I’m you know life has blessed me right I’m I’m I’m healthy I’m I’m you know still young enough I’m I’m you know I have a family that loves me so for me that was always my my my cornerstone is that I I deep down I I know I’ve I’ve been blessed okay you know winning 17 was wonderful being number one in the was wonderful. Very few people can do that. Yes, there’s a price to pay. Yes. Uh uh there’s consequences. Nobody. Yes. Uh uh some people don’t like my nose. Some people don’t like my success. You know, I’ve beaten a lot of players. I’m sure they don’t like me either. But that’s part of the package. So So even after my career, you know, I’m sure I’ve pissed people off. Of of course I have. We all do. It’s just that when Boris Becka does it, it’s a bigger consequence because of of of of the you know of the name. So um you know there’s many examples I can give and we you know we could speak a week and I give you lots of examples of that. So great things happen because I’m Boris Becka and bad things happen because I’m Boris Becker sometimes for the same reasons. I’ve learned to accept that too. Before we go back to the the moment that you left that courtroom and you headed to your your new home, I think a lot of people new home, temporary home. Yeah. I think a lot of people listening to this will be thinking, how did a man who would have earned tens of millions of dollars over his career and was so successful at such a young age and was lorded and celebrated for so many years, how did he need to borrow three or4 million pounds from a private bank? Have you managed to work out how you ended up in that in that situation? The lessons that people listening to this could take from that. Well, first of all, I didn’t earn tens of millions right now. Another wrong story. You know, if you were playing nowadays, I would earn the type of money. But in the 80s and the ’90s, you didn’t earn the type of money. Let me ask you a question. What was the the prize money for Wimbleton Champion in 1985? £300,000. That’s before taxes, right? which in 1985 was a shitload of money. Right? Today the winner makes £3 million. So multiply everything that we earned today. It’s 10 10folded, right? So now give you another example. So the the prize money I’ve won, right? Which has always been written here, it’s $25 million. That’s before taxes and before costs. What was in my pocket was probably half, which is still a lot of money, but it’s not tens of millions. Now, I had a great manager at the time. Of course, I had you on Tyreek. Of course, he got me great commercial deals, but not tens of millions of money, right? So, I was wealthy. Of course, I was wealthy. What did I have then, just to give you a better idea, um, you know, in court? In court, you have to declare um what you what you think you you’ve had. So you know in euros I can do that better. It was about €30 million which is a lot of money. Now let me tell you another thing. So on the day I was called ins solvent I was cash poor and asset rich. What does it mean? I had a house in Germany. I had a thinker in Spain. I had a flat in in in in London. So I had these these three you know expensive real estates. Now the only thing I asked to charge is that give me time to sell my finger and my yoka and then I could pay the debt. What I didn’t have anymore and most athletes don’t after their careers is have the same income. We have the same expenses and there’s another mistake you know I made a lot of athletes made is we don’t have the same income but we have the same expenses. So I kept paying the ex-wives and the kids and the schools and but I didn’t have the income. That’s what I mean with cash poor. And this this where my problem started is that I had too much outgoings and not enough incomings. Um let me give you another number since we talk about numbers. I mean it’s good for the show. So for 32 million euros, I lost all my real estate, right? Yeah. It was worth way more. Way more. That’s my point. So for my 32 million euro debt that I had to the private bank plus the 25 interest, I lost my house in Mayoka 10 million. I lost my flat in London for2 million pounds. I lost my house in Germany for 2 million euros. So, I’ve lost 15 million for three and a half million debt. Again, that’s not an opinion. That’s a fact. There was a man who comes up in the book called Dieter Cleven, who’s a a business associate of yours who does not come out of the book with any credit at all. And what what do you now think about the kinds of decisions you were making about the people that you were trusting? Look, um it’s it’s all my fault. Again, I I want to emphasize that is nobody else’s fault, right? It’s my fault. But when you when you play tennis all your life, you focus on on the practice on on the strategy and everything. I I didn’t study business, right? You you depend on on managers. You depend on lawyers. They’re supposed to make make your life better, right? So, and in most case it works. In some case, it doesn’t work. Now, when I finished my career, I was about 33 34. Of course, I want to learn the business side of it, but it’s going to it’s going to take time. Of course, there were sharks who took advantage of the naivity. It wasn’t even it wasn’t even um a question of not being educated. You just don’t know the other side of business when you’ve been a prof professional athlete. I’m not the only one. That happens. There’s many cases like me where where you know smart managers, agencies naturally, they take advantage of of the player. that that’s their business. So, it took me too long to realize that most of the people don’t have my my my best interest at heart. They want to take advantage. But then the damage was done already. So, my my my mistakes that I paid for then in 2017 really started happening in 2010, 2011, 2012. And then the it it it’s like a it’s like an an um avalanche like an avalanche in mountains but it goes it goes you figure and um and you can’t stop it anymore. I was looking for ways to you know to stop the debt. I was looking for ways to have more income. It just didn’t happen and then ultimately I had to pay the price. Were you sleeping? You sleep terribly. I mean you you don’t really sleep anymore and I mean how how many beers can you drink, right? I mean there’s there’s a point where you just don’t sleep much. Uh uh thankfully I’m I’m a pretty strong character. So I’m you know I I hate drugs. I hate you know I had too much alcohol. So I’m I’m I’m even then I I lift through difficulties doing a lot of sport as much as I can. I’m you know I walk a lot and I go to gym. I swim. So so that was my my avenue. That was my my my you know way to to deal with the stress. But it you know for years it was very stressful. So what advice would you teach her? Well story crazy story and yeah before this actually can I just ask you one really quick question because it is a crazy story and I hugely appreciate your honesty. Can I ask how much money you were left with at the end of this? Everything I lose zero. I lost everything. You lost everything. Everything. When I went to prison, everything was gone. Another thing, another thing that that um people don’t understand, if you get into a British insolveny, is that you still allowed to make money. So, from 2017 until I went to prison, I still had a pretty decent income to pay child support and my bills and everything. Otherwise, how how how would I live if I don’t make anything? But you have to give 50% of your income to the trustee. So if you know if you make 100,000, you copy 50. If you make 500,000, you kept it 250. So I was still earning a good enough living to pay for my lawyers, to pay for my house, to pay for, you know, my my friends and family. Um, but all this stopped the moment I went to prison. So then I literally had zero. So I went out with zero. And that’s two and a half years ago. So, what advice would you give to a 17-year-old now about people and about your situation that would have helped them avoid the pain and the suffering that you’ve been through? Um, actually the 17-year-old did all right. Um, he he was a you know, talking about myself here, I was a tennis machine. You know, I played I won the tournaments number one. Uh, really up until I retired from tennis. Um, that’s when the problem started. Um, there was a time in my mid20s where I was burned out. I was tired of tennis. And maybe in hindsight today, I would say at 25, take a break. Take a year off. See what you want to do. If you’re still willing to pay the price to be the best tennis player you can be. Um, you know, smell the roses a little bit. So, I didn’t do that. I I I kept on, you know, had contracts. There was, you know, responsibilities and so forth. So, I played that up until I was 32. Um, maybe I would have played longer if I would have taken a break at 25. I mean, now the guys playing their mid-30s, you know. Um, uh, but then I stopped also. I had a, you know, bad injury. I had a bad right ankle. Uh, and that needed to be, um, that need to be fixed. And I think that was another main reason why I said, listen, I don’t know if I’m ever going to come back. You know, the surgery is going to be very bad. and uh and yeah. So, but if there was a 17-year-old athlete listening to this today about your story, what would you teach them about people that could help them avoid some of these same pitfalls? Well, well, pick your pick your friends wisely. Of course. Of course. Uh uh you ideally come from great family, but then um sports families are sometimes also take advantage of of the young, you know, player. That’s that’s that’s common as well. Difficult. It’s difficult thing to get out of alive really, you know. It’s not healthy winning 17 in hindsight. I’d rather would have won later. Um maybe more often. You know, I lost I was in seven finals. I lost four. So that that’s something it still pisses me off today. Um so winning at 17 couldn’t have been healthy. I mean there was no you know there was no normal way out of this. Yeah. I I know that today. You say in your book after the 7th of July 1985 everything changed and later on you say after that moment it feels like someone else owns you. And young people these days they lord fame they lord money. They lord success and trophies. They think it gives them everything they ever want. And you’re giving us a very different view of actually what fame is like at a young age. Would you sh would you share with us the real cost of of that? How it felt to suddenly be famous? like what was actually going on in your life after after winning Wimbledon? I mean, just to put it into numbers, maybe even today, right? You know, in ‘ 85, there was no internet, there was no Instagram, right? Uh imagine a 17-year-old Brit will win Wimbledon this summer or next summer. You know, he probably has hundreds of millions of followers in in today’s valuation. You know, he’ll be a Messi, be Ronaldo. That would have been me, the 17-year-old German, right? So, uh, losing control when a whole country takes over your life, that’s what happened to me. Now, tennis is an international sport. So, of course, some some folks in America wanted the peace. Some people in in Australia wanted the peace. You know, my my my sponsors wanted the peace. Um, that’s that’s what happened. So, you you lose control over your life. You everything is everything is decided for you. You know, some people have good interests. Of course they do. But you no longer can go, “Okay, I’m tired for tomorrow’s practice.” You have to give a press conference because you’re not having the practice tomorrow because the tournament sold the practice seats that, you know, people are watching your practice or when you don’t want to play tournament, right? You get a fine. Then you have to explain to the world, um, my shoulder hurts. They go, “Show me evidence.” So you have to go to a doctor and and he has to give you medical. So everything you do is judged. Now considering all that I did well a long time. But I think at 25 or so 24 25 uh I thought for the first time maybe it’s time for a break because I’m I’m too much. It’s I want to live. I want to have a social life you know. I want to I want to uh be normal you know be normal then now. And and and so I didn’t do that. So that was that was a mistake. Is that a scary explanation for a 17-year-old today? I’m always saying, you know, we we have this this phenomenon in football called Yamal, right? Look what he’s going through. Look what he’s going through. I’m not going to fast forward and I’m going to tell you how this is going to finish, but he’s at high risk of going to difficulties in 10 or 15 years. Mark my words here. And explain for people that are still confused by that. Why would a man seemingly with the world at his feet be facing those difficulties in a decade’s time? In his case, as much as I know him, I think he comes from very moderate beginnings, right? Not to say poor beginnings. He’s a rich man now. His father’s rich, his mother’s rich, his sister’s rich. So imagine all the people wanting the piece of that wealth. Imagine what he does to a brain of a 17-year-old, the 18-year-old where everything is in the public. I mean, he’s he’s the poor guy who’s texting a girl and now he’s a girlfriend, you know. So, everything he does will be a headline tomorrow. He plays for one of the biggest clubs. So, a complete loss of privacy, which is very hard to take for for anybody, let alone when you’re still a child. At 17, you’re still a child. You don’t know yet how life is. you’re not mature yet. Uh, yes, you have your teammates and and you know, president of the club. I’m sure they’re doing well, but ultimately this this boy goes to sleep alone and he’s wondering what the [ __ ] is going on. Yeah. Huh. And there are ways to deal with it. Some are good and some are bad. What would you, if you had five minutes in a room with him, what would your advice be? Five minutes is not enough. No, it’s honestly is is, you know, find find two or three, you know, honest serious people that look after you, the man, the person, the human being, not after the wound, after the You know how hard it is to make those judgments cuz you thought you were choosing the right people to look after your interests. When I was playing, I was good. I had I had my parents. I had Antaria. They were great people. Nothing happened to me. But my education in business just didn’t happen. Therefore, I I didn’t know who was good in business, who meant well, who was cheating me, who was taking advantage. So, that was my issue after I stopped playing tennis. In my tennis career, I was safe. But eventually, there’s a time after. See, but I find it intriguing that the brain doesn’t mature until around the age of 24 and 25. Well, some people even say we’re not matured. So, well, maybe later. But I find it interesting that that was the age when you you felt you described yourself as being burnt out and wanted to step away. So what when you look back on the 17 up until the age of 24, what were the kind of mistakes that you realized you were making that that maybe you wouldn’t have done after that? Well, there weren’t that many mistakes. It’s just very tiring playing 75 80 matches every year. It’s very tir very tiring. It’s it’s it’s frightening to go back to Wimbledon 18. Everybody says you’re going to lose this. You’re not going to defend this. So, you know, it’s very tiring, very exhausting to go at Wimbledon and and defend your title. So, dealing with the pressures, dealing with the expectations, your own team doesn’t believe you because nobody has done what I’ve done. Yeah. Right. So, you’re pretty much alone already then. and and to overcome that and and to deal with that and to deal with with you know um I’m I’m I’m sure just bringing bringing Yamal again. I’m sure um he’s got some lonely moments. I mean who can I talk to? Who can he talk to? Nobody’s as good as he was at 18. Not even Messi was that good. Nobody was as good as I was at 17, 18. Who can I rely to? Who can give you that advice to Yeah, we had a couple guys who were that good and then you’re supposed to do a wine set. that didn’t happen before. So, you said that was a frightening experience to go back to my mother in 1986. Yeah. But you also said that you’re you’re somebody for good or worse that doesn’t get afraid. So, when did you learn to deal with fear and how? I I’ve I’ve never had an issue um dealing with pressure. I I have had my my ways about it. You know, some people call me a little crazy, but it’s fine. Um, I never had an issue with that. It’s more other people had an issue with me. How I was and maybe how I am is um, you know, you you put me you you throw me into the jungle of Brazil, I will find a way out. Believe me. You throw me into HMBB Onsworth, I will come out alive. It’s just the second nature. It’s it’s don’t ask me how I do it, but I will find a way. So when I was 18, 19, 20, yeah, there was a lot of pressure and and it was difficult and exhausting and not every match I I I won, of course not. But I was okay with it. I was okay with it up until I wasn’t. Look, aging happens to all of us, but feeling old, I believe, is totally optional. And I actually started noticing just recently some little subtle changes. I had slower recovery after my workouts. I was a bit stiffer. I just had whole days where I just felt like my energy wasn’t there. I just felt like a bit L and that’s when I found this. This is qualia senolytic and this is a breakthrough formula that actually helps your body to naturally clear out scinesscent cells. They’re also known as zombie cells, right? They kind of stick around. They drain your energy. They’re cells that make you feel sluggish, a bit sore, just basically older than you should. And what’s cool about this is you only take Qualiaenolytic 2 days a month. It’s plant-based. It’s got vegan formula and it will support your body’s natural process to just get rid of those cells. And since I started, I’ve had more energy. I recover faster. That kind of spark that I thought was gone forever feels like it’s back. And if you would like to get involved, check it out at qualia.com/performance for up to 50% off. And use code performance for 15% off. Or just click the link in the description. Go to quu a l i a l i f.com/performance. Your future self will thank you. And thanks to Qualia for partnering with high performance. Let’s talk then about HMP Wsworth because this story of yours, the story that makes you laugh because if you wrote it down as a movie script, it would be seen as too ridiculous to be real. But it is your lived experience. It is your life. So you get the sentencing from the judge. You put your hand up to the glass to Lillian. She puts her hand back. And Noah. Noah, too. Yeah. And Noah. Yeah. You walk out of the dock. What on earth happens next? Well, you actually go down. There’s a there’s a little um a little door that leads you downstairs. And there’s a there’s a small reception cuz I was still in my suit and tie in nice shoes. Uh, and they were very um, you know, they were very nice English gentlemen. They say we’re so sorry what happened to you. We’re embarrassed. We know who you are, but the rules are you have to take off your suit, your tie, your shoes, and everything and leave it here and put on your your your, you know, things that you brought to prison. That’s a symbolic moment, you know, removing a Ralph Lauren suit and a Wimbledon tie, correct? To put on your prison clothes. Actually, you don’t get your prison clothes then because you’re allowed to to wear your the clothes that you brought. So, it was a it was a Puma tracker I put on. But then I put on a black one because I wasn’t told I’m not supposed to bring the black ones. And they say you can’t wear the black. Black is for the wardens. So, you have to take your blue or your your orange one, whatever you had. And that’s what I did. Then I had a half an hour with my legal team who explained me the difference between concurrently and consecutively. And then I I breathed was breathing a bit lighter. So before that you thought you’d been sentenced to seven years. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. And then they said no um 30 months which is bad enough but usually they let let you go after 15 which is still a year and 3 month. But I said, “Okay, um, where do I go?” Then they go, “Um, there’s two large holding prisons if you if you get incarcerated in that regions. One is at H&MP Onsworld in the southwest and one is in the northeast. I forgotten the name.” And and so they go, “So one or the other.” They don’t they even didn’t know that. You they they couldn’t have known. They couldn’t have known. And then um so you have half an hour you go okay 13 months 15 months okay um I I’ll find a way was my was my um my mindset um but then I’ve never been to prison right I’ve never been to HMP once either uh so then they put you into a larger holding cell and there’s you know there was three other guys already there in there waiting for then the transportation to pick you up. You don’t know where you’re going. Yeah. You then they they put you in a in a car and you still don’t know which prison you’re being taken to. No. No. You hear whispers. It’s either this or the other one. You know, it’s either once for the other one. But you still don’t know. The reason for it I know now is that um you know career criminals get organized very quickly. Meaning if they know they go a place they have their small their their small phones with them. Don’t ask me where where they keep them. Uh, and then they make a quick call, get organized, so they get quickly sorted wherever they go. Okay, that’s why you’re not told in which prison you’re supposed going. Then you go into a bus and each bus has their own little cell and there’s a small window so you you get an idea. Okay, you’re no longer in a city. You’re on on on a highway now. And then you you know I saw a sign Oxford. Then I figured, okay, Ox um wrong. That’s when you went to I went to Hunter. So you went um past HM Belfast. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The boat uh and then um because it was Friday afternoon, the drive was pretty long because of all the traffic, but you don’t exactly know where you’re going and then you you get to get to the gate of of HMP Onsworth and then you realize where you are. So can I show you these two pictures and I’d be interested in your reflection of them. Yes. No, exactly. That’s That’s the first That’s the first um picture you have of HMBB Onsworth. That’s the one. Yeah. And this one is in my mind. Yeah. I don’t need to see this. This is in my mind. Um Yeah. But when did it dawn on you that this picture that Wimbledon where you’d made your name at 17 was just 2 miles away from Wsworth? Not immediately. Uh but obviously once you you spend a couple days and you you you know you get your bearings and you understand where you are then you know it’s a it’s a stone throw away. I mean it’s it’s you know mile and a half or two miles away. So again I mean if you make this in a movie they say this couldn’t be true. On one hand you have women center court you know the greatest court in the world the most important tournament. um you know my my favorite place and then a mile and a half down the road is one of the worst places probably in the world. Yeah, I did it both. I want to read you a quote from your book about the first night at HMP Wsworth. It’s the screaming that cuts you deepest on your first night in prison. Tell us about the screaming. Yeah, you you don’t know many things when you first enter prison. I mean, German prisons are different. You know, every country has different prisons. Uh what I’ve heard is HMP Onsworth in particular is a real bad one, but you don’t know that fortunately. So, um you get into uh prison, they make a picture because then they give you a a little little badge which which you have around your neck. So, you’re not no longer Boris Becker. You’re a number. What was yours? Mine was um 82923 EV. I think that’s what it was. Yeah. And um then they they guide you um you know people who work there um actually uh the listeners which became very important for me the listeners then start talking to you and they start to explain you what’s happening in uh in Onsworth and then they guide you into a cell. Uh before that I must say uh I’ve I’ve um I went to the office of the the director of of Wsworth and he explained to me what what’s going to happen now. So one of my fears was naturally that I have to share my cell with someone and he says um no I have a single cell because um I I’m at risk. I say what do you mean I’m at risk? He says, um, other prisoners will take advantage, um, of you. Uh, they may know you, they know your background, you know, you have you have wealthy friends, you know, a famous guy, so we want to protect you from the rest of the lot. I said, great. Then I asked him, of course, um, what about the showers? And he goes, well, just be careful. Just pick the right group of people because the showers lock from the inside. and we all watch these movies, right? What happens in the shower? So, that was my biggest fear is that I’m going to be showering with people that that take advantage of of of me. Um, and the wardens don’t go in there. Don’t you lock you lock inside the shower. So, you’re with with your lot alone, right? And and what happens in the movies is actually true. So, that was my second fear. And he says just just just find find your group. find a group that you feel safe with taking a shower and um that’s pretty it pretty much it and the listeners take you they took me in one cell and it was Friday evening um and it’s really smaller I mean it’s it’s whoever whoever says prison is easy is lying you know it’s supposed to be punishment supposed to be difficult is really difficult right so the the cell is very small and um you know there was a very small TV probably the smallest I’ve ever had in my life. But thankfully there was a TV. Uh the programs were um the BBC, ITV, Channel 4, and there was a movie channel, which I thought was nice up until I found out that they had about the same 20 movies on a loop. So I’ve been watching Rambo 3 and all the Schwarzenegger movies, I think 50 times at the end of it, but it was better than staying at the wall, right? So, and then I was just um about to to make my bed and you know make myself comfortable and just you know you know accept it. What are you going to do? Then they came in and the listener says no no um this cell is needed because I was on the bottom floor because um there’s an old guy and and he he he needs to be in the bottom floor because he doesn’t walk so well anymore. So they put me on the second floor right in the middle which was which was not so good because there’s a little there’s a little loop at the door which which you can close and which the the wardens you know look in and and if they want to tell you something mine was broken. It was open. That’s why I heard the screams much more. Um and so I had to spend the first week or so in that that really terrible cell with the Luke open. And I was um my first cell had a single bed. The second one had a a bunk. But because the the door was open, I put the clothes that I have on the top bank just to have a little bit of privacy because there’s a thing that the first couple of days all the all the prisoners always check out the newbies and and so they were looking inside the whole time and asking me if I want this, if I want that. So it’s crazy. What did you do? Because like do you speak to them? Do you not? Do you? Because they can smell fear, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course. Well, at at first and and I was unlucky there is that because there was a holiday on the Monday, I was in that cell about 22 hours a day. A day. I was only let out from 11 to 12 to grab my lunch and dinner between 4:30 and 5:15. That was it. The rest I was inside that little hole. And the first I remember on the Saturday um you know you go out and you’re really scared. I mean then then you’re really scared. Explain that fear to us. You are in a complete unknown environment. You know everyone is a criminal. You don’t know what they’ve done. But then you quickly realize, you know, there’s murderers, there’s pedophiles, there’s drug dealers, there’s people smugglers. The worst lot you can imagine. And they look like it. They look like it. I was probably the only one that didn’t have a tattoo, right? And then you go and you you stay at the servery and with your little little plate and you look to the floor. You don’t look anybody in the eye because you’re afraid. The listeners spotted me and they they you know came around to protect me a little bit. And they go, “Well, don’t don’t deal with these people and don’t look at them.” And and there there’s a there’s a another listener um in the kitchen. His name is Mo. when you get there, talk to him. He’s going to tell you what you can eat and what you shouldn’t because the food is horrendous. I mean, don’t understand in 2022, we have so much food in the UK in London why they serve that type of food. I mean, it’s normally you can’t eat that on purpose. I don’t know why. I don’t know why. Maybe they don’t care. How would you describe a meal? Um, well, you you see a you see a sausage, but it’s raw or it’s it’s too brown or you see, you know, usually you end up with a bit of mashed potato, bit of rice and and yeah, that’s it. I mean, I can’t even can’t even describe it. The type of food you get there, but you’re so hungry, you eat it anyway after, right? Real hunger. Real hunger. But the first and I was speaking to Mo and he said, “Well, don’t do this. Don’t do this.” And and if you eat fast, come back. I give you the second lot. Normally, you’re not allowed. So I felt for the first time hunger. I was the first weekend, you know, I didn’t come back. I had only one one round. So I had a bit of food for lunch on Saturday, a bit of dinner. And then like Saturday evening, Sunday evening at 8, you know, you want to grab a sandwich or you want an apple or you want something. I didn’t have that. So I was really feeling hungry probably for the first time in my life. Um the problem was all this didn’t change until Tuesday because of a bank holiday. So Saturday, Sunday, Monday were the same 22 hours out for lunch and dinner and then only on Tuesday they let you out uh about 10 10ish cuz I didn’t have a job yet. So what I what I found out that you you know you need a job or two and then the listeners on that Tuesday the listeners started talking to me about you need a job we can help you find a job. Um they explain to you the system that you get about £15 a week and out of £15 you have to pay for your food that you eventually can order on the canteen and and calls and you usually would do you know 50/50 so about £8 for the food and about £7 for calls. That’s all you have up until you get a job and and per job you get about a pound a day. Okay? So if you work 5 days a week, you get five extra pounds. I ended up having two two jobs. So I got, you know, 10 plus the 15 with 25 to 30 pounds, you can get by in prison because you can buy enough food then and have the calls. But until you get there, until you are enhanced, until you get the job, it takes forever. But on that on that Tuesday, I was lucky again, the listeners, me, they say, well on Wednesday there’s a job available. um how good is your English? I said, “All right, how good is your math?” All right. Well, there’s a job available as a English and math teacher and you can be the assistant of the main teacher. I said, “I’ll take it. It doesn’t matter what it is. I’ll take it.” So, from Wednesday onwards, I was teaching English and math in the mornings and in the afternoons. And I did that my whole time in once, which was about four weeks. So then even though it was so bad, I had the listeners around. I had a job. I had a bit of structure and and then it was okay actually. It was it was okay. What do you tell us about the listeners? Um uh I was trying to avoid their names uh uh because because of you know privacy reasons but they they are they are criminals as a listener is a criminal usually a long-termer meaning 5 years or more but trustworthy by the wardens because um another misconception is that prison is not run by the wardens is run by the prisoners. I mean, I give you an example. In Onsworth, you have about 2,000 prisoners and 70 wardens. They have no chance. So, they have to pick the most important prisoners, the most trustworthy prisoners who then deal with um deal with the the dangerous prisoners or with the newbies. Okay. Explaining me a little bit the the whereabouts of of prison. And and they really looked after me. I mean, I wouldn’t have survived it without them. Um uh and I’m still in in in in contact with a couple, you know, uh and and they then tell you, okay, um you get a job, you know, uh stay away from that group. Uh he’s all right, Mo’s good in the survey and so forth. And so they build you your infrastructure where you survive with um including the visits. Now, you have no idea what you have to do to tell anybody who’s who’s supposed to come next week. So, they told me, listen, there’s a there’s um um there’s a what do you call this? Um there’s a a page, a document, and that’s where you can pencil in on which day your your girl or your son, whoever wants to come, um can go. So, that actually happened on that first Thursday. So for Thursday I was able to you know before that call my partner and say listen on Thursday but you have to call HMBB Onsworth because you have to tell them who you are when you want to come and so forth. Lillian had to call. Lillian had to call right. I I couldn’t I just said so you’re totally out of control here. Totally out of control. You know nothing. You know nothing. and and that that is that is you know for a control freak like me that’s that’s really difficult to to deal with. What would you say was the biggest shock? Well the biggest shock still today is that how dangerous prison is that if you’re with the wrong lot I mean people today get killed in prison. There’s a there’s a large number of deaths that we don’t even know about. people can get really badly hurt and and you know at the end of the year you say uh you know a couple names are missing but because you’re a prisoner you lose all your rights you’re you’re you’re nobody you’re number actually you know I said that before your number so that’s that’s the most scary part of that type of prison but you’re Boris Becker not in prison not in prison which worked in my favor because a lot of prisoners didn’t know me, didn’t know tennis, you know, weren’t interested. So that actually saved me a bit if that they didn’t know that of course I know I know people of of power and money. So easily they could have taken advantage of the fact that this newbie yeah has a couple listeners but we are we lot are much much bigger. We can take advantage of the famous Boris Becker. Was it strangely liberating that, as we’ve already discussed, fame was one of the big reasons you ended up in this prison and suddenly fame had no currency. You could almost like reinvent who you were. It was liberating. I’ve I’ve slept I’ve slept out of exhaustion and frustration. Not the first couple nights because of the streams, but after a week or so, I was so tired, but I was liberated that there was no role to play. There was no responsibility. It was just survival. And I don’t mind that. I I realized then that I I can do that. And it was it was until now. Until now I’m liberated of that. And did you work out a tactic for survival? Because I’m thinking you’re now 57. This is 2020. So you’re in 54. You’re in your early 50s. You carry injuries from your tennis career. And there’s 21, 22 year old very strong, very physically capable, dangerous men sharing that building with you. Did you have a plan for what you would do if things went wrong? I certainly couldn’t fight them physically. Yeah. But my my brain and my heart are very good. So I was able to use my heart and my brain to have some sort of influence with with the dangerous ones. Um you know becoming a math and becoming an English teacher at first gives me access to a lot of prisoners. Yeah. And you know most of them unfortunately are not educated. Most of them you know can’t count. So helping them in in the classes just just befriending them you you you start to gain trust with them and then I talk a little bit of what their info and what they’ve done and so forth and then you start to have a different power than a physical one and then also quickly you know I mean the listeners is a very powerful group you know if you if you’re close with the listeners they they are very important in prison to the point of almost running prison they know which wardens are bad which wardens are good, but they also know which which prisoners are dangerous. So, they’re sort of in between. And if you hang with them, that that gives gives you a lot of respect. Prison is all about respect. If they respect you, you’re safe. If they don’t respect you, they take advantage. So, I was trying to be with the, you know, the tough boys, the listeners, the people that were in power even though they were prisoners. And what what techniques did you use to be able to establish a sense of respect from them? Used my personality, used my character just talking to one another. You know, we’re talking now. So, you give me enough time with you, you either run away or you end up probably liking me, right? So, so that’s the thing. I was able to show um very humble humans. I was able to show me, right? Right. I’m I’m I’m not a bad guy, right? And and we are in this thing together. So you help me, I help you. If if you can’t read the letter, I read it for you. If you can’t spell the words, I’ll write the letter for you. You can’t talk to to authorities, I speak to authorities all the time. So you help each other and then you start to have a really strong bond with each other. So here’s a question then. If you weren’t one of the world’s greatest tennis players, would you have had the skills to survive in prison or do you think your sporting career helped you in this? I probably um wouldn’t have survived prison if I weren’t a gifted tennis player. You know, tennis is a very difficult sport. you know, it’s it’s um you’re on your own. Uh you have to deal with tough players, crowds, weather, scheduling and all that. So if you can’t overcome these situations, most players can’t by the way. Yeah, most players can’t today. Cannot. Um I probably wouldn’t have survived prison. So, so the qualities and I talk about stoicism, I talk about character personality, this this survival instinct in that fifth set, that survival instinct of coming back at 18 winning this this mindset that that some Paul some call maniac or crazy I probably am, but otherwise I wouldn’t have done what I’ve done and and I think that that played in my favor. And what would you say was the biggest characteristic though that is transferable from the from center court to the prison? Well, you have to you have to look after your own, you know, on in that plan match. I mean, you are the one that decides to serve the forehand, the backhand. You’re the one decides when to get up, what to eat, what to wear. You are very, very independent. Oh, we were anyway in the 80s and ’90s. I think players are more depending now. But in the 80s and 90s we were, you know, we were a bit bit wild. I mean, talk about Borg and Maro and Connors and Lendel and all these characters. We were a little little crazy. But that set us apart, I think, from the rest. You write in your book about prison crack. I think for people who’ve never been in prison, they think, well, of course there’s no alcohol in prison because it’s prison. Of course there’s no mobile phones because you’re incarcerated. Of course, there’s no drugs cuz you can’t get the drugs in there. What’s the truth? Whatever you want, you get in prison. Literally, whatever you want. Um, depends how organized you are, how much you want to pay for. Um, you can get I wouldn’t say a a you know, first class menu, but you know, talking about drugs, for example, you know, the most popular drug in prison is called spice. I didn’t know that. um you can get through help you know I don’t want to claim now it’s the wardens and I don’t want to claim it’s it’s someone else but if you pay enough money you get almost what you want including phones you they you get the little phones and and they you know you’re able to hide it on in your in your backside right I mean it’s it’s all it’s all happening so depending what you’re willing to pay you can get a lot of things in prison. What was it like seeing people so close to you taking drugs, drinking alcohol in this kind of confined environment? Like what was the impact of those people that were taking what you call prison crack? Well, you would stay away. I mean, you quickly find your group. Yeah. And and mine wasn’t dealing in that. And how would you know that they’re that they’re on spice? Because the listeners would tell me all that. I wouldn’t know. I think they’re they’re you know that I I obviously see they’re drunk or obviously they’re high but you don’t know how is it possible how how could they get this in prison right I mean it’s the first question you have and then the listeners tell me Boris you have no idea what’s happening in here you can literally get almost anything depending how much you’re willing to pay not in prison but someone knows somebody outside and that person outside gets paid and then someone organizes whichever way they do to to to get to the prisoner. It’s it’s But you’re thinking in that situation, if you can get drugs, you can do anything. You can kill me, you can rape me, you can attack me. It’s it’s a lawless place. It’s a lawless place. Anything can happen. That’s the most scary part for me then and in hindsight is how danger prison is. So what were your coping strategies to be able to handle such uncertainty, such danger? Stay with the right group, honestly. And then then then really be careful not not to step out of place, you know. You you you can’t brag. You can’t tell too many of your stories, where you from, you can’t tell anything about your loved ones. You have to be really really selective and and who you’re talking to and and and you know which topics you’re talking about. You have to really be careful and and at first at first um you really you really want want to get out of your cell. I mean that’s that’s you know 22 hours in a in a little hole is really difficult. At the end of my prison term there was my safe place at the end of Hunter. I couldn’t wait to get back into my cell because I was safe. So you mentioned Hunter Prison. So, you were told by your legal representatives, correct me if I’m wrong, that you would spend some time being processed in Wsworth for a few weeks. Yeah. Then go to an open prison. You can see Lillian, your partner. You can spend evenings at home. Yeah. And what happened? That didn’t happen. Um, that didn’t happen because I don’t have a British passport. I have a German one. So in about two weeks in Wsworth um I have to have to go to the authorities and you know ask password everything and they go well you don’t have a British passport. I said no. Well then you have to go into a a foreign national prison. I said what is that? Well this is for people that don’t have a British passport and um who who want to stay in the UK and this is where you go. I said but that’s wrong. I was told that after a couple weeks in in Onsworth, I go to an open prison because obviously my crime isn’t as dangerous and isn’t as bad. They say, “Well, you were told wrong.” And what do you do? You can’t believe it at first and you you’re getting worried a little bit that what else is wrong that I was told. And and that’s when you you know you get you get careful who you talk to. Um and then you know then we start I mean my my wife now partner then um then we started really talking about okay what happens in a foreign national prison. Uh you know what does that mean? And then she gets she gets information from the outside. I try to get information from the inside about what that is. And then pretty quickly it was clear that because I’m not I don’t have a British passport, I have to go to a prison for foreign nationals. How would you describe Hunter Prison? Hunterum Prison on the surface wasn’t um as bad. The building was a bit more modern, more like in the 70s. Um the ceilings were lower. Um but you had the same criminals. So on the surface it was okay but then you had your murderers and your pedophiles and you you know whoever was in um in Wsworth who was not British had to go to a foreign national prison. One of them was was hunter. My my luck there was that um quickly one of the main wardens in there was a guy called Andy Small. um I mean to a point where you almost you know saved my life is he he very powerful personality but he was responsible and his team for the gym which is the most important um class for the gym and for the story class and he quickly told me listen naturally you know first of all I know you are so you’re you’re um you’re more qualified than anybody else to work in the gym because you actually know what you’re doing. So, as soon as you’re enhanced, I I give you the job in the gym. What does enhanced mean? Enhanced means that even though I was enhanced in Onsworth becoming a teacher, that was unusual, right? The prisoners, the the the the listeners helped me so much. I didn’t have the listeners in Hunter. I had nobody. So, the normal process is it takes four to six weeks to be allowed to find a job. And again, this is like prison rules. This is the kind of the prisoners deciding if you are enhanced or not. And yes, the constant fight for hierarchy in prison. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But at first, as a newbie, you’re nobody, right? And they don’t care that you serve time already. They say every prison has their own prison roles. So in Hunter, I was not enhanced. So instead of the three or four days, I was in my room for 22 hours for 5 weeks. Was an absolute nightmare. And that’s why Hunter was probably worse for me because in in Onsworth I quickly had the listeners, quickly had a job, quickly was out of the cell in the morning, the afternoon in Hunter it dragged on forever and and nothing Andy Small could do or anybody else because the you know the the the the main guys went okay those are the rules. You’re just a number and you have to stay between four to six weeks until you’re enhanced and then you can you can start your job. And tell us about some of those characters that you did meet in Hunter. Um because it was foreign nationals of course you had you had all nationalities. So the most powerful group in Hunter were the Romanians. Um again strong group of people very dangerous and they controlled the upstairs just under Kou’s two floor um who once were this much bigger building they control the upstairs with the wardens. So I befriended them because I knew a couple Romanians. I mean they knew Tyak, they knew Nastasa, right? They knew Simona Haleb. So my bond was Yeah. And I I speak a couple words of Romanian. So very quickly I bonded with them and the reason and another another strong group is the Albanians. So Romanians, Albanians, Muslims religion is very important in prison. Which which faith you have? Which god you believe in? A lot of Muslims um a lot of Christians very few Jews. I’ve I’ve met you know in Hunter I remember one in in Onsworth. I I don’t remember one. So, a lot of Christians, a lot of Muslims, um, a lot of Africans, and um, I think those were the three biggest groups, the Romanians, the Albanians, and the Muslims. And then you you find a way to to get along. Yeah. You met a man called Zach. Yeah. And the story around this guy in the book is remarkable. Would you mind telling that story for people. Yeah, I have to though um explain a little bit. Uh so after my after my um five weeks be adhanced, I started working in the gym which was you know liberating. I you know had work to do in the morning, work to do in the afternoon and then life became a little easier. Um because I was enhanced, they put me from the upstairs to the downstairs. And next to my cell was a guy called Ike. Um he was living um he was living in Hamburg, but he was originally from from Nigeria, from Lagos. And he was a heavy duty drug dealer. He spent a lot of time in in Belmarsh. And on my left uh was an Indian guy, a Sri Lankan guy called Sugi. He was also at Bel Marsh, you know, both long-termers. Um U Sugar’s crime were were gang related. And uh they became my what should I say my my um my security. They they became the people that I hung out with. Uh especially Ike. I I was a physically very strong guy. Um and I walked anywhere I did. I walked with them with those two. Um and what did they get out of that relationship? Uh Ike, for example, uh speaks fluent German. He knows he knew my first wife, Barbara. He my first son is called Noah. So is his first son is called Noah. And he just had a had a um lots of respect that I’ve I’ve picked a black woman as my wife. Right. So I got a lot of respect from all the black prisoners because my my wife is black and my my kids are mixed. It’s again about respect. Yeah. Huh. So Ike was doing um was was dealing the laundry which was an important job because in the laundry um you could speak freely. You must remember wherever you go there’s there’s microphones, there’s cameras. When you pick up your phone, you speak to loved ones, you’re listened to. You hear it and you were told. So don’t tell anything. You don’t want the world to know. So even on your phone calls, but in the laundry room because it was noisy, you couldn’t they couldn’t listen. So then Ike Ike sort of became my listener was Ike and Chooi and they told me the facts of life in Hondukum. And I know afterwards that Andy Small on purpose put me downstairs between Ike and Bikonugi because he knew they were good people even though they were prisoners. And um I didn’t know it then, but I you know know it now. And uh so we became very close. What did he get out of it? Well, Ike was in for 12 and a half years. He trusted me. He told me things about his life that I’m not going to share with you. Um and he I I was sort of his his shining light. I gave him I gave him motivation. I gave him hope. He wanted to go back to Germany as well. So I I gave him I gave him a couple of speeches about you know he shouldn’t give up and you know things like that. I in a way I became his coach and and Sugi Sugi was um a man of faith and and you know religion is very important in prison. And so we started going to um the the church service every Sunday together and we start we started praying and reading from the Bible and all that. So Sugi trusted me because I was also I’m a man of faith. Um and so that was our our base where we trusted each other. Sugi even became my barber. Now don’t ask me how he had a knife and he could cut my hair and beard. But he did cut my hair and he did cut my beard. Now he’s a prisoner, right? He’s a criminal. There’s other things you can do with that knife. Yeah. Or a little scissor yet. So you trust each other 100%. 100%. You have to and and uh one one um afternoon I had food on my plate. I went to the survey. And what you don’t do in prison, you don’t do go to another prison’s cell to a stranger. You just don’t do that. Is your your safe place. This is where you have your belongings and your stuff or whatever. Um you’re not even allowed to go into somebody else’s cell when they’re inside. I mean, you you do it, you know, eventually, but you’re not supposed to. But certainly, you know, don’t go into another man’s cell by your own. So, this guy next to my cell was Iel. So, this guy was in in Iel. So, I looked Zack. Zach was the guy. So, I felt a bit bit protective of Ike and and I asked him, “What are you doing in a cell?” And then he turned around. He just started barking at me, you know, who are you to? And I go, “Well, my name is Boris. I’m I’m next to Ike. I know Nike over the last six months. So this is not your cell. What are you doing in his cell? And then he started being aggressive, you know, swearing at me and and and really facing at me. What are you thinking at this point? I’m thinking he’s about to hurt me. He’s about to hurt me. So we went into um he went out of the cell. I walked backwards out and he faced me. Um, and he was started screaming at me and very quickly because of my thankfully it was late in my hunger hunter because of the relationship I built with all the other prisoners on my floor. They came all out of their cell. So what was Zach saying to you? I’m going to beat the [ __ ] out of you. I’m going to kill you. I’m going to slice your throat. I’m going to do this and that. And he’s he’s a me in front of me. I mean he’s a big guy. Big African guy. How scared were you? Very scared. Very scared. But I had my tray thankfully in between. So I felt like if he starts touching me, I can do something with the tray. I don’t know. I’m sorry. Yeah, I’m not sure the tray would have saved your life. It was just Thank I mean, he would have come closer to me if I didn’t have the tray, right? I had the tray in front, but very quickly all the guys of the cell behind in in front of me came out and then they started talking to Zach and they just told me just go back in the cell. We take care of that. How did that feel? I was still scared, but I heard a few screams. I heard a few noises. And then, you know, Ike is running back at me. I say, “Boris, Boris, Boris, Sack will apologize what he’s done.” I said, “Sack, just relax. I’m happy. I’m here. I don’t want No, no, no. Prison rules. Zack has to apologize. He threatened you. He He’ll pay a price.” And then, couple days later. Couple days later, prison rules. Yeah. A couple days later, Zach asked me to come into the laundry and and uh he says, “Yeah, Zach is there. He wants apologize.” I said, “No, Zack. No, leave me. Just leave me. I don’t want to.” “No, no, you have to come. Uh he will apologize.” So, I go into the laundry room. Sack sees me. He falls to his knees, kisses my hand. I get embarrassed. I get up, get up, get up. No, no, no. I apologize about No, no, get up. So, I gave him a long hug. I told him, “Who am I to tell you what to do?” Right? No, no, but I didn’t know, you know, you would suck. I I disrespected you, but please take my apologies. D. And I go, “Okay.” Um, we’re absolutely fine. You know, no hard feelings and and you know, Ike, you know, thanks, but it wasn’t necessary. Um, I ended up playing chess with this guy because he was a very good chess player, but I was always a bit afraid because he he was they stay um there’s a time when prison never leaves you even though you you able to go out prison. They could say after 7 to 8 to 9 years if you if you spend that much time in prison that prison mentality will never leave you. He was already in there for 17 years. So he had a he had a mental issue. He was wearing a a soft hat over over his head because he was complaining that his brain hurts. So he was he was you know he was borderline because prison got to him. He was a normal healthy young man who went in India. He was 18. Um he killed two people and he was when I met him was 35. Right. So he was in there already for 17 years. He spent time in Belmar and um I I feel sorry for him. Yeah. So I I was embarrassed in the laundry. So that’s interesting though. Even you talking about feeling sorry for him. It’s like he killed two people. I know. Yeah. But you’re you’re in a position where you’re seeing the human behind the criminal here. It must have been a very interesting time for your understanding of human nature and human beings. Yeah. Look, you you uh we’re all very judgmental. all of us every day. Uh we judge people because they’re white, they’re black, they’re big, they’re small, they’re thick, they’re thin, they have hair, they have no hair, and and you you can’t be judgmental inside because you you’re one of one of many. You’re you’re you’re a prisoner and and uh of course you you um um you know, you you you don’t accept their crimes. Um but you’re not judgmental. We all we’re all people. We [ __ ] up. We make mistakes. Some of us are some of us are caught. Not everybody’s caught. We make mistakes. And in order to to survive prison, you can’t think that you’re better than anybody else. It’s about acceptance. It’s about dealing with your own situation the best you can. In prison, you need one another. And And I I I can’t judge a person’s crime. Um he’s been already judged. He’s been already serving 15 years. I I’m not going to be his judge, nor will be he my judge. And And I’ve learned that quickly. Uh and and it it it worked for me. It worked for me. And um yeah, it’s a it’s a different world. But a lot of how you’re describing that, Boris, sounds like the teachings of Stoicism. Tell us what is it about stoicism that struck a chord with you? Well, it’s a first of all, it’s not a religion. It’s a philosophy. It’s very important. It was created by one of the greatest Roman leaders called Marcus Aurelius. At the time, he was probably Trump and Putin combined. He was the main politician in the world with the great Roman Empire. Um and he had uh of course he had slaves and his most popular slave was a guy called Epictitus. Now Marcus Aelius was always miserable. He was always in bad moods. He was not in a you know balanced and this this slave of him Eictus he was always smiling. He was always in good moods. And I said I’m the most powerful man in the world. I have everything. you have nothing and you seem to be in better moods than I am. How is that possible? That was the beginning of stoicism. Meaning it’s um it’s very much about, you know, living today to its fullest. You know, we we certainly can’t change the past and we don’t know what in the future. And also it teaches you that the only thing you can control in your life is not your wife, is not your kids, is not your parents, is not your job. You know, it’s your own thoughts. If you control your own thoughts, you become a better man. And Epictitus was controlling his own thoughts. And Marcos wasn’t. And that’s ultimately the most important message of today for everybody is that we’re not in control of nobody else but of our own thoughts. And in prison, you’re so much alone. You’re so much in your mind, in your thoughts that you better you better make them nice. You know, you better better make that make that space inside your head. You better make them beautiful because otherwise it will eat you up alive. So, can you give us an example then? Like after that incident with Zach where you go back in your room and you’ve been threatened, what were you saying to yourself that that that could make it more tolerable? I I went back and and I was, you know, shaking. I was a little bit shaking. Um I was a bit upset with me that I put myself in a situation that was dangerous. It shouldn’t have been my business to check in Ike’s room whether there’s sack or anybody else. But I felt protective of Ike, but it was ultimately my mistake. You know, you you always look as a stoic, you look at your own mistakes. You know, I’m responsible for my life. You’re not responsible. I’m responsible for my actions, for the good and the bad ones. And um so when I was a student um in Hunter and and Andy Smallwood the teacher I heard a lot of sayings that I was telling myself as a tennis player you know living in the moment about pressure about expectations about uh how you value things. Money for good or for bad was never important to me. I didn’t play tennis for money to a fault. Um, unfortunately, we charge ourselves a lot. The guy is rich, that’s why he’s a good guy, and the guy is poor because he’s a bad guy. That’s wrong. So, I’ I’ve learned to take responsibility for my actions. And as a player, um, that that reminded me a lot of how I played and why I played. I wanted to win. I wanted to be the best. Whether I got that paycheck or not, it didn’t make a difference. And um, I lost that philosophy. after my career, you you know, I became too complacent. I became too comfortable. I I liked what everybody else liked. I I became like everybody else, right? And and so I I lost my path a little bit. I lost my way of who who am I? And um so when I went back to the classes, I realized that that’s exactly what happened to me and why the mistakes I’ve done because I lost my path. I I I I took a wrong turn and did so many things that were not like me. My character, my personality is different and I I rediscovered my personality in the stoicism classes. Ultimately, I became a teacher on stoicism and I told the criminals the same things what what we discussing now is that give you an example. So, you’re you’re the third time as a drug dealer caught. you’re either very bad at it or you like prison. And they go, “What do you mean?” I said, “Just just think of the money you couldn’t make by all the years you went Hunter. So either you become a better drug dealer and don’t get caught, but chances are you will. So you’re going to be here the fourth and fifth time and all the time you spent in here, you can’t even use your money that you saw.” That makes sense with them. Yeah. or you know, we all have emotions, we all have frustrations, everything. If you start beating up people because of that, you’re going to be caught. And if you beat up somebody really badly, you’re going to be caught and have to go to prison. Is it worth it? Or is it about controlling your anger a little bit longer, find a different outlet? because what you do will get you caught and it doesn’t doesn’t um go in there the first time, the second time, but eventually you start to build a relationship of saying, “Okay, um prison life, it’s not worth it. Find a way to stay out of it.” You’re talking to a fellow stoic here. I have uh mmentoto my uh tattooed on my inside wrist, which as you will know is remember that you’re dying. So really none of this actually matters too much. There’s another great stoic phrase which is amorphatty. Accept your fate. Yeah. Don’t fight the things that have happened to you. For people who struggle with amorphatty, for people who spend too much time in their own heads, for people who feel like the victim too often, for people who spend their lives blaming others for the things that have happened to them. As a as a now a teacher, not just a student of stoicism, what would you like those people to hear? you know, we we eventually I mean, you said it, we eventually are going to be all gone, right? We’re going to be old. We’re going to be, you know, hopefully we get old and and we die and then what’s what’s left, what’s remembered. Um, so, you know, you you got to make the most of it while we can, why we can make a difference. Especially when you have children, you want to obviously teach them the rights and the wrongs. Um uh and and you know don’t waste your time on on unnecessary things. You know we waste so much time on social media. We waste so much time on television. Waste so much time and and and real [ __ ] is eventually that time is gone. So so what I’m trying to do is you know with the days and the weeks and the month that I have is that not waste my time anymore. I learned I learned to appreciate time again. You know, when when when time is taken away from you, when when freedom is taken away from you, when you sitting in a in a [ __ ] hole of a cell and the only thing you have is your mind, you’re going to be more appreciative once you have a little bit more. And and um again, my my mind saved me. My mind is saving me now. Um, and and you know, there’s only there’s only a couple of people that I allow into my inner circle now. I’m very protective. My my my wife is very protective. Uh, because I don’t want to waste time anymore. I’ve wasted enough time in my life with the wrong people. So, I’m really careful in in in who I talk to, who I have dinner with, who I drink with. Very, very careful. Can I ask you one question about Andy? Andy Small, who ran the gym and had the stoic quotes on the wall. You started this by saying Andy Small virtually saved my life. How do you mean? Yeah. He um without without his um supervision, you know, without without his guidance, without his protection, um Hunter Comb would have been very different. You know, he quickly realized that he could help me. I was open for it. He uh in that regard it helped that I won Wimbleton otherwise he wouldn’t have known me. He quickly realized that I could be important for him as well because I could deal also with prisoners in a way he couldn’t. Um he wants me to continue the stois classes in Germany. We we were going around the world already a couple times and in preaching stoicism to whoever wants to listen to us. So, he became a really close friend of mine and yeah, if he wouldn’t have put Suggi and Ike next to me to protect me, um, Sack probably would have would have hurt me. Uh, if he wouldn’t have invited me into a a stoic class and made me a teacher, I wouldn’t have discovered it the way I have. So, he’s very much responsible for me being the way I am today. What do you think when you see that photograph? Yeah, that’s that’s Lillian. That’s right. Yeah. Look, um you know, God blessed me with a very special um person um you know, we we met already a while ago in 2018. U by accident, a friend’s uh an Italian friend of mine in in Frankfurt. He had a birthday. Um he turned 50. His name is Michaela. And and and she was she was, you know, his friend as well. So that’s when I spotted her for the first time and I I knew then she was friends with Michaela and then his wife and uh you know 2018 I was in trouble. I was insolvent. I was not in a good state at all. So I meet her and and I I thought she was very interesting and I ended up going back to Frankfurt every couple weeks um to to you know meet her and everything but she didn’t want to meet me alone. She said, “I’ve I’ve I didn’t know you first, but I Googled you. You sound like trouble. So, I stay away from you.” I said, “Probably good advice.” And so, she would only meet me if there’s Michaela and his wife if there’s a bigger group. So, we meet for lunch and dinner. But I’m I’m uh persistent, you know, when I want something, I’m very persistent. So, it took me 10 months just to get her number. 10 months. And as a as a former hunter and collector, that’s that’s by far the longest it took me to ever get a girl’s number. Right. And then it’s that first phone call. That first phone call. I love that you describe yourself as a hunter and a collector back in the days when I was young and wild. Yeah. Um and it it uh Yeah. uh and that it’s that first phone call whether whether you know we all have done that very first phone call whether it clicks or it doesn’t click and it clicked and uh she was uh she was in Brazil in the holidays and then uh you know she came back um and uh you know and and we’re we’re couple ever ever since that that comeback and and but again obviously um it was a very difficult time for Um so when I when I you know got incarcerated and and it’s this 3 week stretch that I spoke earlier from the 8th of April 22 to 29 you know I I I knew that there’s a good chance that I have to go to prison. I I you know sat her down. I said listen you’re young you’re beautiful. You’re educated. Uh you don’t have to wait. You don’t have to wait for me. I don’t know if I’m in for two years five years seven years. just just live your life and and and that’s it. And and and she looked at me and said, “No, of course I want to wait for you.” I said, “That came out of instinct. That came too quick. I don’t believe you. You have two weeks now to think about it. Speak to your parents. Speak to your friends. Don’t wait for me.” Wow. and and she almost when I started again the conversation she almost felt insulted of saying how dare you question my decision. We are team and we’re going to do this together. Now very clearly uh she was the only contact I had inside in my phone calls. I wasn’t speak to anybody else. Yes, I spoke to Noah once or twice. I spoke to my daughter. as well. But she was she was in total charge of my family, of my my whereabouts, of my legal issues, everything. Without her, I wouldn’t have survived it the way I did. And and um again, maybe I had to go through all the [ __ ] that I had to go through to to meet this angel. And and naturally, you know, I came out um uh you know, asked her to be my wife and and you know, she thankfully said yes. So, we’re having our first baby together December. So, at the end of it, you know, all the difficulties in my 40s, I I’m meeting I’m meeting this woman who is um I hate to say this, but she is clearly the only boss I have in my life. Okay. There’s a there’s a story in the book where she gets a phone call from the land lady of the the flat that she’s living in while you’re in prison and gets told to leave. Yeah. because the amount of paparazzi outside the flat because of you is too much. And I just had this image in my head of a a woman that you’ve known for a while, but who’s been with you when you’re insolvent, been with you when you’re not very happy, been with you when you’ve been sent to prison, is with you when because of you she gets evicted from her flat because of the fuss around being Boris Becker’s partner and still she sticks around. Yeah. And I just I started this book thinking it was a story about being in prison. And actually I finished the book thinking maybe this book is actually a love story. Look um very clearly without her I wouldn’t be the man I am today. Um that I found relatively late in life. Um, such a woman is is uh, you know, I can say I’m I’m blessed. I’m lucky. I I uh didn’t expect that. Um, you know, there’s no reason for her to stick around other than she must like my personality, my character because I had nothing else when I met her. Nothing. she gets evicted from the flat and has to find the new flat because of the the fame and the paparazzi and the turmoil that I caused in the media and our relationship even though she’s a very private person. So, um yeah, fast forward. Look, you know, things happen for a reason. You know, things happen for a reason, the good ones and the bad ones. And my my lesson learned is then I’ve I’ve done a few great things in my life, you know, tennis wise and and I love my kids and everything, but I’ve done a few bad things. I’ve done a few mistakes clearly. And I I emphasize that it’s my responsibility for the good and the bad. Uh I think I’ve I’ve turned the corner. I think um you know, I wouldn’t have been motivated to turn the corner if I wouldn’t have met her either. That’s important. you know, a man, you know, I was 50 when I met her, right? So, I was asking myself, maybe maybe I’m I’m not made for relationships. Maybe it’s me. Maybe maybe I can’t deal with a woman every day. Maybe woman can’t deal with me every day. Maybe it’s me. So, you get a little bit, you know, complacent. You you you lose you lose motivation to look after you. You say it’s not worth it anyway. And then I meet this woman. So my my um my headline for this for my my thing is that um God gives his toughest struggles to his best soldiers and you’re about to become a father again. What will you do differently this time? Well, spent more time. you know, when I had my my first child, Noah, I was still playing and traveling the circuit, so naturally you’re you’re on the road a lot. Um, in general, you know, time is very precious for me, right? I want to spend a lot more time with the people I love. Uh, that includes my my four older kids and that definitely include um our, you know, our new arrival. Um just just again um big responsibility you know I’m I’m I’m going to be 58 I think uh uh when when our baby comes. So I want to stay around longer. I want to be healthy. I’m going to drink less. I’m going to eat better. I’m going to do more sport. I just want to be there for both of them as long as possible because it’s worth it. What does the future look like for you? um busy, you know, as as I told you, I started from scratch two and a half years ago. So, I have to I have to work my butt off. Um but uh uh I work a lot. I have a lot of lot of things professionally that I do and and we’re good again. We’re good again. Um happy to live in Italy. Very very happy to live in Milano. Um the fact that she’s Italian obviously obviously helps. I learned very late in life that you know a happy wife means a happy life. It took me about 40 years. Um so I I want to I want to um you know give my experiences to the younger generation. I my my network in sport is very good. I think young young sportsmen and women can relate to what I what I went through. And uh yeah I like the camera. I like the microphone. I’m I’m I’m working in the media. Uh I love it, but I also have to work. Is your mind finally quiet? I’m I’m quiet. Yes, I’m a good sleeper again. I’m I’m I was bad sleeper for a long time. I I like my own company again. I don’t need I don’t need a lot of people uh to to tell me how how great I am. I I know I’m not I’m not great. I’m okay. Um I’m at peace. I’m at peace. I tell you one thing that I would love to see Boris Becker back at Wimbledon. Are you able yet to go to the UK? No, I’m I’m working uh very closely with the authorities. Um the problem is that my case is so unique. There hasn’t been a very hasn’t been a similar case like mine. So, I’m working with the home office. I’m working with the Ministry of Justice and and we’re all making an effort and we’re all trying to find a way. They they literally also try and help me. I just thought once you served your time, you there’s rule changes that would be a little bit too complicated now to to explain that, but there’s law changes. There were rule changes in the last couple of years. It’s not as black and white. Um I’d love to come back to London. I’d love to come back to Wimbledon. You know, it’s it’s it’s sort of my middle name. You know, I I wouldn’t be sitting here without Wimbledon. Um, so I’m I’m trying hard and and I’m convinced one of these days we’ll meet we’ll meet again uh in London. Have you thought about that how that will feel? Well, for me for me um it would probably be um the last piece of my puzzle if I if I get back to SW19. I mean, that’s the one piece that’s missing. Um I I work hard at it. Uh uh uh and not so much again, of course. I I’d love to work for the BBC. Yeah. But just to be in the club, just to be in the club with my women tie as a member of the club, um then the the puzzle would be complete. Because why? No, because I wouldn’t go through all of this without Wimbledon. If I wouldn’t have won women 17, none of this would have happened. None of this. It’s the most remarkable story. Thank you so much for sharing it with us. You know, I got on my flight today and the man sitting next to me was German and asked me, “What am I doing?” And I just said, “Well, I’m actually going to interview Boris Becker.” And he said, “Ah, Germany has fallen in love with Boris Becker again.” Are you aware of that? I’m I You won a big award recently. Yeah. Uh they they like me again. Um they like me again. They start to appreciate a little bit. Maybe sometimes you have to be dying to be appreciated. and and um maybe there’s a new a new wave of of love that coming more way which which I like. I mean I I know ultimately I only have a German passport. That’s why I went to a foreign national prison, right? So we’ve got some quickfire questions to end. Okay. The first one is after everything you’ve been through, what are the three non-negotiable behaviors? The three behaviors that now are most important to you? were honesty, accountability, and tolerance. Lovely. What one message would you want to send to the men that you met that are still in prison? There is a light at the end of the tunnel. Um, keep digging. And for our audience that aren’t aware of the work of the Stoics, if you were to leave them with one Stoic message, what would you want that to be? will take care of your mind and of your thoughts because that’s the only place you live in. What makes a great coach? Communication skills. You dedicated your book to your wife, but you also dedicated it to your mom. If she was here today, what would you want to tell her? Well, I got to see her when I um came out. that was very important to me you know I had a beautiful story um on the first week in um in Wsworth. So on the first Sunday the the chaplain um he sees all prisoners and he also came into mine in my cell and he asked me you know whether Christian or Catholic whatever and yes uh whether I wanted to go to the you know this the church service they have every Sunday. He said, “When once I get out, I’d love to come to church service.” And then I asked him, I said, “Um, I wasn’t able to call my mother yet. So, can you find a way for me to call my mother because I haven’t spoken to her yet since I’m in?” And he said, “You know what? Come quickly with me into my office and I call your mother for you.” So, he picked up his phone. I gave him her number. She picked up and I was able to tell her that I’m okay. It’s crazy. There was on the um the first Monday was Mother’s Day in the UK. So on the Mother’s Day, I was able to call my mother because the the church chaplain allowed it. Probably he he he broke the rule. It’s probably not allowed, but Yeah. So how important was that for you? Um it was important for me, but I think it was more important for her. Yeah. Is that that she she knows me a long time. She knows I’m I’m a son of a [ __ ] right? I can come through things, but she didn’t hear from me, you know, for a couple days and she just wanted to know that I’m okay. Are you happy? That was the first question my wife asked me and I didn’t know what to say because I wasn’t happy. You know when you when you meet someone, you talk about tennis and the kids and everything. And then one question in our early beginning, she looked at me, he goes, “Are you happy?” And I didn’t know what to say because what was the truth? I was in miserable. I was was not happy at all. Yeah. And she cuz I I went through all we’re talking 2018, right? 2018. Hardest time. The hardest time. I knew was going to happen and all this. So I was not happy. I was in the worst place of my life even though I was outside. Right. So today I can easily say I’m very content. I’m at peace. I’m calm. I work a bit too much, but on that I’m I’m good. So why do you say you’re at peace and you’re calm and you’re content, but you don’t say you’re happy? Happy for me it’s it’s a little bit of a too soft. Yeah. It’s doesn’t doesn’t mean much happy. You know, people I’m happy. What does it mean? Um, for me it’s it’s not not a strong enough of a word. Um, you know, happy it doesn’t doesn’t mean much for me. Yeah. I also think happy is so transient, right? You can be content but still unhappy. Yeah. Yeah. You know. Yeah. So, the final question after this amazing conversation and thank you so much for giving us so much time. Um, is the the final thing you’d like to leave our audience thinking about how they can after hearing this go on and live their own high performance life? Look, I think we all um have talents that we don’t even know about. I think we’re all geniuses in our own way. We just have to dig and find out uh what what makes us better, what makes us stronger. Uh sometimes you have to go through misery, through hardship to find the real qualities. I think we’re all we’re all champions. You just got to find that champion mentality of what makes me better, what makes me more successful in whatever way that is. And and you know as a teenager I was very much instinctive you know tennis and onetoone and everything. uh and you know the other day I was thinking you know what would have happened if I wouldn’t have become a tennis player would have been good in something else with the same characters and person and the answer is probably yes so it’s tennis was just a tool for me so we all have that inside of us everyone has something really special and and and you know for me the key of life was always be find that find that champion in you whatever it is and then be the best of Boris, what a story, what a life, and what an episode of High Performance. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.