Professional golfer and former 288th-ranked (OWGR) PGA of Americas player Chris Petefish joined 54 Golf to discuss the current flawed system used by professional golf.
Chris’ education in the field of mathematics make him uniquely capable of addressing the inadequacies of the current system, the challenges of pivoting to strokes gained numbers, and the overall reliability of professional golf rankings.
He channels the strength of strokes gained to help golfers achieve more on the course through his Course Of Action Golf program. BONUS: Chris shares an insider’s view of how to best use those numbers to fix your scores!
Support Chris Petefish and Course Of Action Golf here: https://www.courseofactiongolf.com/
Check out our LIV Golf League dedicated blog: https://www.fiftyfour.golf/
Follow us on socials! You can find us on Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. This podcast is powered by the Sport Social Podcast Network.
What’s up everybody? Welcome to 54 Golf. Today’s episode was super special. I was joined by professional golfer Chris Pete Fish. Chris is currently playing on the PGA Tour of Americas. Formerly on the Cornferryy Tour, hoping to get back through Q school and back on the tour next season. He’s a three-time ACC champion at Georgia Tech. Made the putt to win the championship in 2018. He’s a super math nerd and he’s now working with golfers improving their game using strokes gained at Course of Action Golf. In our conversation, Chris talks about his journey throughout golf, how important strokes gain metrics are for all golfers, and we talk about the challenges of the current golf ranking systems. Chris really touches on the complexities of rankings, especially the official world golf rankings, TUGR and data golf. And while we didn’t achieve world peace in golf, Chris as a golf fan himself really emphasized the need for a more unified ranking system, we talk about all of that, plus the mental aspects of your game and how you can use strokes gained to improve. I really think you’re going to enjoy this one. So, let’s get right to it. All right. So, now that you’ve kind of heard all about Chris’s golf career and how he got to this point, I do want to make one addition to this. Chris Duff definitely has a live golf connection through at least through college at Georgia Tech where he played with Ali Snder Jans and Andy Ogulry, two of Chris’s teammates in college and even going back to his junior days where he played in California uh in amongst the same kind of events and and area and system that Bryson grew up in. And so definitely got some some live golf connections there. And then kind of our new school approach to golf, the strokes gain thing. Um, Chris does course of action golf where he uses strokes gained to kind of take younger or even some somewhat experienced golfers to the next level of the game. Kind of where the future of golf is headed, which is kind of what we want to talk about today. But I’ll give Chris a chance real quick to just kind of how can you know the let’s call them let’s call myself a seven eight handicapper how can they use course of action golf to kind of you know improve enough where golf can become you know because we get into this rut there’s this plateau at seven eight you know where we reach this point where scoring becomes the real I feel like your program is perfectly cut out for like a seven or eight because scoring at this level is so much different than shaving off those first 20 strokes, you know, for sure. And I think someone that’s like a seven or eight has more room. You’ll be able to see more improvement. It’s easier to save shave off shots. Being that handicap and I work with all kinds of people, whether it’s junior players like mini tour guys or people that just want to win their club championship or win more bets against their buddies and they’re tired of losing. So, I would say the easiest for like a 78 handicap is being really aware of like bogey avoidance and then using strokes gain to see like, okay, what are the areas where I have the lowest hanging fruit? Whether it’s like, am I just hitting off the tea into penalty areas too much? Uh, am I three putting far too often? Maybe I’m thinking about 15, 25 footers the wrong way. It could be many different things which is where I come in and and do a good job of interpreting the data uh more than an AI tool has from a player perspective that’s you know been out there and done it for so many years and so everyone’s different which is kind of fun. Everyone has their own blueprint but there’s many many ways to avoid bogeies and avoid doubles for you know any individual person and how to do that is kind of what I find intriguing and fun and you know a challenge. We could certainly do an entire show on how to fix any handicap and turn them into a near scratch for sure. How, before we dive into the the the real meat and potatoes of the show, how did Strokes Gained come onto your radar? I imagine by the time you hit your, you know, peak in college, this was something that may have been kind of talked about in some way, but but was it kind of something that like was this train that you were either going to get on or be like so far left behind and you just kind of do just like got on the front seat and like let’s go somewhat. Yeah. I mean it wasn’t I was in college in 2014 2018 and a lot of the stuff had a not existed or was just ramping up and um yeah that was kind of the era of like Scott Fawen decade when he was just starting out and so for me it was just I had a rough junior year in college didn’t play well and I just thought I wasn’t getting enough out of my talent and so that’s kind of as someone that’s huge into numbers I always like aced all my statistic courses in college at Georgia Tech back and I thought I love like sports and numbers. Like I’m just very interested in like, hey, how is this person doing what they’re doing? Regardless if it’s golf, it could be basketball, the X’s and O’s. And so my brain just kind of gravitates towards that. And so it was kind of a perfect timing for me to like play better golf, but also just to have it almost be a hobby of like, man, let me dive into this and really understand this strokes gains as well as just the game in general at a much deeper level. And it uh definitely helped me play a lot better golf like immediately. And you mentioned other sports, not just golf. Like all sports are going have just flown in the direction of if you’re not using the latest numbers, you’re you’re way behind your competition. For sure. I mean, just it’s just the nature of of sports, right? I mean, it is. Yeah. I mean, just think of going to a casino. Like, why would you want worse odds at the poker table or the blackjack table to win? It’s just for sure. And so, that takes us right into the most maybe the most powerful numbers in golf. And at least when it comes to the highest level and I think the most powerful personally and I you know you may not share the same opinion but I think the most powerful number in golf is your official world golf ranking as far as you know the way the PGA tour is set up where you know getting yourself into that top 60 to play in the elevated events. Getting yourself into the top 50 at some majors you know things like that. the OWGR really truly has a lot of power in the game. And I guess my question for you is as someone who’s played at, you know, just about the highest level you could possibly play in professional golf, do you see the OWGR as doing it perfect or is there an issue in the system itself that kind of prohibits it from being or from maybe possibly executing that power fairly, I guess, is the best way to put it. say it’s a loaded question. And I feel like there’s a lot of problems with pro golf right now. And I would say there’s somewhat of a problem with OWGR, but at the same time, the way how golf has kind of segregated itself, it is very difficult to have a pure ranking system that is equitable just based on the fact that you have people, you know, best players aren’t all playing the same spot. They’re playing different courses, different venues, different competitive landscapes. But at the same time, like do I feel good knowing that like John Rom’s 71 in OWGR and like Russell Henley’s three like I I believe John Rom’s a better player and so it’s like I don’t agree with that. Uh but at the same time it is difficult when you are have people playing different places you know is on every other league basically is is under the same umbrella and it’s just difficult for golf to find the perfect system. So I think strokes gain is a great metric, but there’s also issues with trying to apply that everywhere when people are playing different places. Sure. So I think is Mark Brody is kind of the big name in strokes gained and rankings, right? He came up with a system in the college game to kind of tweak what had been, you know, a somewhat a long-standing but somewhat flawed system where not everyone’s playing in the same events and not every team is playing, you know, or not every player is playing the same amount of holes or, you know, not every team, uh, you know, there’s tournaments all across the country every single week. College Golf has tried to incorporate strokes gained into their ranking system um as of 2024 where um Brody kind of you know took over this position and introduced this system. On the pro side, we have Data Golf and Tur who are different but also similar in using more recent data to evaluate and rank the golfers. Whereas the OWGR weights an event that could have been 23 and a half months ago just as highly or not if not higher than the event that part that took place two months ago. And so I’m wondering if you would favor the data golf side of things where they incor where they weigh things that are more recent more on a heavier level than the OWGR does with a blanket two-year kind of window. For sure. I would say going back to like the strokes gain and kind of the difference uh of trying to rank everyone. I think an interesting point would be just the difference between 54 and 72 holes. And I think it it’s also hard from um a strokes gain or a world ranking to combi like equate those because if you think of Scotty Sheffler like you know obviously the PJ is 72 holes and he’s winning at a 33% rate since the beginning of 2024 and he’s over a stroke in strokes gain better than the second best player in the world whether you want to call that John Ram or Rory like he’s over a shot which is an insane amount. Um it’s it’s a large gap and just think about if PJ Tour decided next year we’re going to 90 holes what his winning rate would be if they decide to do that right now it’s 33 and I would argue it would it may be close to 50% that he win half the tournament because the more time that you give that guy the more he’s going to separate he’s a shot better than the next best player and so that it does get very murky with trying to when you have 54 holes versus 72 holes trying to have you know what what would have happened those other 18 that that there is differences in that which is why I think stroke scan could be I guess an issue with comparing I would say as far as the merit of like data golf versus owlgr like yeah I I don’t think you should have just as much weight as something that happened two years ago I do believe in having more play of recent events like to me that just seems logical You know, as far as using stroke gain in general, though, I it’s awesome when you compare players at the same event against each other, I think that has more merit than, hey, we’re going to give like a ton of points. Just think like FedEx got points or whatever or live points like like you’re going to give a ton of points for a win and then second is like half of that or almost half of that and it’s like you have to come in like you know you have to come in like second twice or three times just to quantify what you get for a win. It’s like I think it’s more impressive to finish in third twice than it is to come in first and then come in 60th. But I think you play better golf overall. So, it’s tough because when you’re talking about strokes gain, it’s like if we’re going to compare that just purely if you know the OWGR just didn’t exist. Like, if I was Liv, I would just say, hey, we’re just going to play all our events in Denver, Colorado. We’re going to have wide open fairways. We’re going to have soft greens like the Ryder Cup and put middle pins because compared to the PJ tour, all the Liv players are just going to be much statistically much better than PJ Tour players at driving. They’re going to be better approach players and they’re going to be better putters. So, it’s like do that with you with what you wish. Like I I think there would be a way to manipulate the rankings of like, oh, we’re just going to make the courses easier. You know, between ourselves, we’re going to be able to compare ourselves and see who’s better player. But like, hey, I’m hitting, you know, John Rob’s hitting at 375 yards in Denver, Colorado. You know, if the Tour is playing at uh uh Harbor Town, then, you know, they’re all hitting 50% of the fairways and their driving sucks. So it’s like I feel like you’d be a way to kind of manipulate those rankings in a way. Yeah, definitely. strokes gained has a very difficult challenge in bridging that gap between courses, leagues, field strengths, like even those types of things are very difficult for strokes gain to to kind of find a way to, you know, because what we’re really think about here is the golf fan as golf fans here at our show. You know, it’s it’s it’s a very difficult to, like you mentioned, to look at a ranking system that has someone ranked in the 70s who is clearly, you know, at worst a top five golfer in the world. Yeah. I mean, the literal worldass golfer and, you know, politics and all those things aside, just, you know, trying to find a way for the average fan because that’s the most important thing, right? You mentioned it right off the bat. Those numbers are the things like you you you think about you know hitting 300 in baseball is hitting 300 in baseball or you know being the all-time leading scoreer in the NBA. That’s that’s you know that’s that’s a number and sports are built on numbers and when the numbers kind of you know don’t have good footing with the fans I feel like that’s a it’s a tough place to kind of build up from. So yeah, you we’re not going to make world peace here for sure on this show, but like where is where where can the fans go to get a number that they can truly trust? Is there a system that you could that you could think of as a golf fan yourself that would that would, you know, maybe make you feel better about the numbers? Like how how could that happen? That’s a very difficult question because then you have a lot of politics involved too of who’s running these tours. Um, and they’re obviously competing against each other. There really is no good answer right now until everyone plays in the same spot, which is possible, you know, 5 10 years later. Think of what’s happened the last 5 years of golf. The best thing I can think of is if the other organizations like gave more power to like a data golf or another organization said, “Hey, we’re going to like combine rankings. Like we’re going to, you know, you may be like 60 here, but if you’re three here, like you know, you are somewhere closer in the middle. like there’s going to be more of a consensus, but it it is tough because again like obviously the golf bodies are leaning towards OWGr but you know you look at a date of golf that says RAM is fourth and Bryson seventh like that just feels more correct to me as a viewer of golf and then you know I think Tuger is also interesting as well. The thing that stood out to me looking at their rankings is like Jackson Quaven at seventh which I listen awesome player like he’s been balling like you know lot of respect anyone that does that um as an amateur but can I justify him being ahead of the J you know JJ Spawn US Open champion or walking Neman who’s dominating live or eludic um that one is like whoa I’m not sure if I’m putting in the top 10 yet because there’s also a mental side we talk about strokes game but there’s also a mental side of like he’s playing as an amateur about the pressure you had of being able to lose his card or his livelihood or you think about the time it takes as a superstar player of the corporate outings like your life changes dramatically and he may just continue to get better like that’d be awesome but you also look at other people like Luke Clayton who was you know just as good if not better about a year and a half ago you know according to data golf he’s about 1.3 1.4 four shots worse than when he almost won the 24 RSM. And listen, there’s a million factors uh that go into, you know, how someone plays, but you know, he hasn’t played as well as a professional as as height as his amateur, and I expect him to get back to there where he was, but like, you know, things happen from the mental side playing from amateur as a as a professional. So, it’s like seeing him at seven was was interesting to me. But I I think the other thing that we look at when we talk about strokes gain and like, hey, purely like this guy’s just better because he has better numbers, you know, over a thousand shots at, you know, all these tournaments. It’s like where is the strokes gain like Ryder Cup on the line? Like the mental side, like I need this putt. And it’s like if I looked at the numbers in all day to golf, it would tell me, hey, Russell Henley’s the guy that I want on Sunday to close out two eight foot putts on 1718 to give the US a chance. Like that’s what the numbers would tell me. And like I’m a numbers guy, but at some point we need to like there is a mental component to that. Like hey, you know, gun to your head like who’s the guy that you want to make that putt? And to me like I’d rather have JT hitting that putt. Statistically, he’s not a better predator. He’s he’s worth for sure. But a he’s shown me in the past. He’s won majors. He’s done this before. I’m pretty sure he’s 4-0 in singles. And like see the guy’s just a dog. Like there’s just guys in that moment that stats just don’t tell me that I want the ball in their hands. You know, in the NBA it’s like a Jamal Murray or Jimmy Butler. They may be a 45 46% 43% field goal player in the regular season and when the playoffs come like they are their game is heightened to a completely different level. that stats are going to tell you, but I want the ball in their hands. And so there’s really no perfect system. Maybe it’s a blend, but I think we have to account winning in there as well as like, you know, are these like the big boys or these little guys? You know, in moments like that, for sure. And I think, you know, 19 minutes into this conversation, I don’t want to put any words in your mouth, but there isn’t a system that doesn’t have a flaw, right? when when you’re trying to rank across thousands of golfers, across every continent on the globe, across, you know, different uh number of holes and and event types and and things like that, different course setups and and things, you know, what players are playing for. All these systems kind, you know, are flawed to some to some degree. The biggest question for me is does, in your opinion, does golf, the sport, actually even need a ranking system? We already have, you know, the cornfairy tour where you can earn your way onto the PGA Tour. We already have the International Series where you can win your way onto the live into the live golf league. you know, we already have these systems in place to ensure that the next generation of golfer finds their way to the top at the professional level. Are rankings even necessary outside of, you know, a talking point for, you know, to argue who’s if John Rom’s the 71st best golfer or the third best golfer, like what what, you know, where are we where do golf rankings really fit into the sport? I think really they fit in of major championships because that’s what matters now of like you know how do we get the best players to show up at the biggest tournaments like do we have the right player showing up at that at those events and otherwise if if we found the right way to do that personally I feel like the average fan doesn’t really care like hey you know whatever players 54th in the world now it’s like we care about the guys that are dominating the guys that are winning tournaments and winning majors like those are the players players that people tune in to watch and the history of, you know, how many ter how many majors was Rahm going to win? How many majors is Scotty going to win? Like, you know, those are the really the biggest storylines versus, hey, this guy’s now third in the world for this consecutive amount of weeks. It’s like, who cares, you know, like right, you know? So, as long as we get the right players at majors, like that’s what golf fans want to see. And right now it’s just golf’s in a very very tough spot to fairly do that with just the way everyone’s playing different spots. So it’s again the only thing I can come up with that’s a logical solution at this point is some kind of collaborative effort of rankings. But at some point you may actually have too many cooks in the kitchen. So it’s tough. You look at the college football committee and people are like what in the world these people thinking because you have you know you have this whole board coming in. So it is difficult. Um, and there’s no perfect answer, but I think the bird I didn’t mean to put you in the spot in the same spot. Yeah, I didn’t mean to put you in that spot. I mean, we’re not, like I said, we’re not going to solve world peace here. There’s just, you know, at some point the fans have to be the impetus for the change that’s necessary, you know, in the sport. And, you know, I think the players, you yourself as a player are saying, hey, let’s find out a way to make sure that the best people play in the best events. And that’s that’s really the only the only important job of any person in golf is to make sure that you know that the the highest level of player is playing at the highest level of event and that the fans get the most entertainment out of those events. You and I both hope within 5 years we get this all figured out. And this was just a time in golf where it was just really confusing and and you know we we needed somebody to step forward and somebody steps up whoever that person is and gets it and makes it happen. But in the meantime, you know, as golf fans here, at least on our show, like we just don’t pay attention to the rankings because they’re just not, you know, at least the OWGR, it just doesn’t feel like they have enough merit to kind of to kind of reference on our side of things. You know, that’s kind of the way we see it. And we hope that that that things change. Yeah. And we hope that that things change. Okay. So, now that we did not we did not bring the whole golf world back together, which is which is cool. Um, I just wanted to pick your brain about about what’s going on with you on the golf course. I know that you’ve been playing up at the PGA of America’s tour in Canada. Just kind of tell us what that’s like to kind of, you know, experience the the good and experience the frustrating or or poor at that level. I guess the question really is, have you gotten to the point where it’s like, is it worth it to continue down this path? I know you have a love for the game and all that, but I imagine, you know, a lot of people can relate to, you know, not the level that you play at, but a lot of people can relate to walking off a golf course and being like, that’s the last time I’m ever playing this game. And then they could have, you know, the next time they go out, they birdie the 18th hole after like a ridiculous approach shot and a tap in and they’re looking out in front of all their friends. They’re like, “Yeah, yeah, I can still play.” Yeah. You know, I felt like I played pretty solid this summer. I mean, I had a 10th, an 11th, and a 25th, and really like, um, I was really close to putting some really good rounds together, it’s, you know, the way the tour is set up there, it’s the courses are very easy, very getable. And, um, I definitely hit it well enough to contend most weeks. I just didn’t get the putter going um, at all. When I had any kind of resemblance of good putting was when I was like, you know, in the top 10. Um, you know, my my poor year was last year in 24 on the corn ferry. Yeah. I mean, that’s definitely things I think everyone has thought about is like, hey, if I’m not on the PJ tour, like, what does my outlook look like? Um, with, you know, competition getting tougher, the tour is getting rid of more spots, they’re not getting not giving more opportunity. They’re they’re taking away uh more spots um and more money to the big guys, which I mean you could argue about um that’s a conversation for another for a whole another day, a whole another day. But, you know, I still have full status for Canada next year and um you know, got Q school in the fall. I mean, I know I’m very capable of getting my corner card card back and uh you know, going from there. Uh you mentioned the putter. Is there if there was one thing you would say that you’re going to spend, you know, the next couple months leading into Q school working on, is it the putter? Yeah, I I would say it’s, you know, just speed and and doing the right drills and whatnot, you know, everything I teach. But I also want to keep my irons strong. I mean, that’s by far like the best part of my game. So, I also want to keep that strength, you know, strong and, you know, continue to work on that so I don’t lose that. So, there is a balance between like, hey, I’m just going to get better at the thing I need to get mo, you know, the best at or my weakness at, but at the same time, I don’t want to take two steps back at like the engine of your golf game. So, I do want to keep that up. Well, we’ll definitely be following along and and uh rooting you on for sure. Before we let you go, we always ask any of our guests just kind of like a random question that’s in the news and so in the golf news. And so I was wondering what your take is on UFOs. And Victor Hobland is a big UFO and conspiracy theorist guy. I’m not going to go as far as is there life on other planets, but UFOs, where does Chris Peepfish stand on UFOs? Listen, my wife would call me a conspiracy theorist, but I don’t think I’d go as far as the UFOs. I I don’t think there’s life on other planets, so I’ll just I’ll leave it at that. Love it. Love it. Love it. Uh we’ll we’ll get Vic on and and you guys can go back and forth on the merits of of UFOs next time. Perfect. But uh anyway, if you just want to let everybody know where they can go to uh to get involved with course of action and the fish tank and all that. Yeah, you can just go to my website courseofactiongolf.com. Also on Instagram, you can send me a DM. And yeah, listen, just obviously a a super golf junkie, someone that’s played for a very long time and just knows how to get people to play better golf. I really appreciate you coming on and talking about the, you know, the the great war of golf right now between rankings and and the division and all that. I really appreciate your honesty and your kind of vision from the strokes gain side versus, you know, just the standard rankings. Really appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for [Music]
