Golf’s having a moment — but who’s really shaping the way we see it? In this episode of The Big Swing, Jimmy Roberts sits down with two of the biggest media voices in the game: Chad Mumm, the creative force behind Netflix’s Full Swing and Happy Gilmore 2, and Jon Miller, the NBC executive who helped turn the Ryder Cup into a global spectacle.
They talk candidly about how golf content is evolving, the changing audience, and the real business behind the broadcast. From PGA Tour politics to YouTube golf to Travis Kelce covered in honey — this one has everything. Including some fun stories about some of the biggest names in sports and entertainment: Adam Sandler, Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, Arnold Palmer, Rory McIlroy, Scottie Scheffler, and more.
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So I’m like, “Yeah, yeah, come with me.” So we walk across the parking lot and the first thing they see is Travis Kelce’s shirtless getting mauled by a fake bear, you know, covered in honey. And they’re like, “Oh, we’re we’re not in Kansas anymore.” You’ve got to come to a Ryder Cup, Michael. It’s the best event in sports. Now here here am I, you know, just little programming nebish trying to tell the greatest basketball player and arguably one of the greatest athletes of of our generation or any generation what the greatest event in sports was. [Music] Hey again everybody. Welcome to the big swing with Jimmy Roberts. That’s of course me. We invite you to like, subscribe, and comment. And as we record this now, 850 days since the framework agreement between the Liv and PGA Tours and apparently they’re exactly where they were on day one, which is basically nowhere. So stay tuned or not. And speaking of staying tuned, the ratings for the Rder Cup are in. No surprise, what looked like it was going to be a runaway apparently put a damper on viewership. The bad news for NBC this year, the lowest Sunday ratings for a US RDER Cup this century. There was some good news though. When the US made its run, viewership spiked by more than 2 million. But in the end, like most sports, unless Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan are playing, it’s really mostly about the same old story. How many people are watching is all about how good the game is. That’s kind of sports media in a nutshell since the very start. Really hard to pin a date on the birth of golf media from podcasts and TV and newsletters and movies. It’s all over the place now, but it goes back a long way. Bobby Jones made newsreel films in the 30s. Herbert Warren Wind and Dan Jenkins and who knows how many other great writers gave us books and magazine pieces. And since the early 1950s, it’s been on television. And now there are podcasts like this one and newsletters. However you like to consume it, golf has been around for a very long time. And the one thing that has been a constant about golf media is that it’s changing all the time. Today, two of the most prominent figures responsible for how we consume the game. John Miller of NBC Sports, who’s had a hand in some of the biggest deals with all of golf’s biggest organizations over the past 30 years. And Chad Mum, who sits on the vanguard of what’s next in golf media. They represent different generations, but they are both smart and tireless and here with us today to talk about where we’ve been, where we are, and where we are heading. That’s all coming up right after this. Okay. Pleased to be joined now by one of the most powerful and influential members of the golf media. I don’t even know how to describe him. He seems to have his fingers in everything. It’s Chad Mum. He was the producer of Full Swing, co-producer of Happy Gilmore 2, and now the chief executive of Pro Shop. Chad, thanks for joining us. You know, great to be here, Jimmy. All right. I’m not even sure where to start with you because there’s so you got like I said before, you got your fingers or have had your fingers in so much. But let’s start where you are right now and then we’re going to work our way back. Let’s start with ProShop. What exactly is ProShop? Yep. Pro Shop is a is a holding company um that’s focused on the intersection of golf and pop culture. So it was started on the back of Full Swing. I I created Full Swing. Uh the idea for it, you know, was nine years in the making and and took uh you know, almost a full decade to pull all the rights and relationships together to to then bring that show to Netflix and put it on the air. But after doing that, felt like I wasn’t really done in golf. I I’m a huge golf fan and and a golfer myself. And so, you know, I wanted to do more. I I saw the rising tide of golf and popular culture. You know, it just felt like everywhere you look, it was, you know, golf on TV or a different celebrity or athlete picking up the clubs and starting to tweet or post about on Instagram about their love of golf. You had this YouTube golf explosion that was kind of existing apart from pro golf. And it just felt like there was a bigger opportunity. And as I as I had put Full Swing together, I got to build a bunch of great relationships across the entire ecosystem of pro golf from the governing bodies to the PGA Tour to the players and their agents. And and the more I understood the the business of golf, uh it felt like there was a a bit of a missing piece, you know, thinking about this digital audience and this younger fan as they interact with the sport. And and so much of the kind of core golf media ecosystem is really targeting that like Peter Malarw wearing, you know, private clubgo top, you know, businesses, key business decision makers, which is one of the reasons why, you know, the industry of of pro golf kind of punches above its weight in terms of its advertiser demand. It’s a very valuable audience, but I think over demographic, it’s a great demographic, but over the last five years, you’ve seen this kind of grassroots consumer explosion in golf, and there really didn’t feel like there was any sort of scaled entity kind of focusing on that. So, we started Pro Shop with that in mind. The the company is a is a partner of the PGA Tours. They have a a digital rights deal with the PGA Tour that allows us to create content on site to use their archive and highlights uh and and to try to to use that to create media to appeal to this younger fan and and we now um we are as I mentioned we’re a holding company so we have sort of two core media assets within the family. So we have Scratch which we acquired from the PGA Tour sort of spun it out a year and a half ago and have since relaunched it with a full editorial focus on kind of the lifestyle of golf. And then uh we recently acquired Golf Wrx, which is a uh if you’re listening to this podcast, you know, you’re probably a golf fan, but it’s it’s a long um kind of a very healthy community of golf real hardcore I would call almost like proumers built around a community and forum around equipment and golf instruction and and Golf WX is kind of one of the o OG digital golf media brands and and felt like um you know, one that in our hands uh you know, could really be taken to the next So, is there a rock that you feel like you haven’t turned over yet in terms of having found something? Definitely more rocks to turn over as always. You know, we um I I will say, you know, one of our goals was because we are a new company, we can be nimble, we can move fast. You you know, the business of golf, it is it, you know, it’s it’s a small industry in some respects and it’s it’s a very small group of people kind of running it. So, we’ve always had this attitude of if we we can be a speedboat in a world full of cruise ships or aircraft carriers in some respects. And so, I think our goal was always to kind of be able to take advantage of being a startup, being nimble, uh, and and turn over rocks faster than maybe the existing institutions on the on the media front in Gulf could do themselves. And and we’ve always had this mantra at the company from the very beginning was, you know, we don’t want to become the thing we’re trying to disrupt, but the the ecosystem around the media industry and golf felt ripe for a new player with a with a focus more on consumers and and this younger digital audience. Yeah, that’s tough to do though because that means that everything has to be original, right? It has to be a new original idea. It can’t be just, you know, another iteration of what’s out there. I think it’s also about voice, you Oh, I think it’s it, you know, the voices originality can come from a lot of different places. I think our focus has been on talent and voices and so how do we identify uh the next generation voices? Whether that’s covering golf pro golf and Dan Rapaort who we brought over from Bar Stool to to host a new show called Dan on Golf on that’s distributed across scratch or that’s people like Raymond Williams whose Instagram channel Golf Projects follows golf fashion and and the trends at kind of that intersection of golf and street wear and culture. Um, you know, that’s been our core focus, identifying that talent that can bring an originality in their voice to a space that already has a ton of coverage and a ton of attention. But, as you know, talent is everything. I don’t, you know, I don’t know. How do you get from being a kid at the University of Georgia to being a co-producer of uh, Happy Gilmore 2 um, to producing Full Swing? How did What was your path? Yeah, I you know, I was a military brat growing up. um which meant I didn’t really have a hometown. I moved every few years and and for me golf was always the one consistent thing, you know, from place to place and and I always thought of the golf course as as a home away from home. You know, I’d move as a kid. Every Air Force My dad was in the Air Force. Every Air Force base, you know, the joke is kind of the first thing they build is the runway, then they build the golf course, then they build the rest of the base. So, you there’s a strong kind of golf culture across the Air Force. In fact, my grandfather was also an Air Force pilot and he was a colonel. He’s the one who first got me interested in the game. He did a exchange tour with the uh Royal Air Force and was based at Lucer’s Air Force base which you might know is is across the the fth of fourth from uh St. Andrews and they used to do matches in the officers club versus the Royal and ancient you know back in the 50s and 60s. So golf’s always been sort of a part of our our family and a sort of part of that Air Force tradition. Um when I graduated I I went to the University of Georgia. My dad retired from the Air Force, moved to Atlanta. He was a pilot. I ended up going to the University of Georgia because there’s this great sort of lottery funded scholarship uh for state schools and always had my eye on making it to LA or New York. I knew I wanted to be in the media business. I was a creative kid. I, you know, I played sports, yes, I played football and golf, but I also, you know, I was in a band and musical theater, and I always loved creating things and performing. Wait, hold on. What instrument did you play? Uh, guitar and piano. Nice. Yeah. My rock band days are over these uh Jimmy, but I could still bring it out every once in a while. What way? What was the name of the band? Um it was called One Way. So, thank God there’s no uh there was no internet back then. I don’t think any of those videos have made it to to the internet. Uh this is Oh, we’ll look. There’s a lot of gray hair here, buddy. We missed that. But anyway, I after college, I I you know, I my when I was a senior in college, I interned at at Turner for Cartoon Network and that was my first experience sort of in the TV world and I decided I wanted to go pursue a career in media. I really wanted to be a director. That felt like the the best opportunity. I wanted to direct TV which to me felt mass market but also you know there was an art form to it. So I actually my first real job in media was I was a writer. So I got employed by a a tech blog called in gadget that was covering you know the explosion of kind of technology. This was that sort of web 2.0 blogosphere and eventually we started a a show that for its time was was extremely ambitious. It was called the end gadget show. It was sort of the inside the actor studio for technology. Uh our first guest was Steve Balmer who was the CEO of Microsoft. We had a live studio audience. We did it at the time center in New York. That led to a relationship with uh with Jim Bankoff, who was transitioning SP Nation into a media company that would become Vox Media, which is right where I landed with that show and and my little production company. And and spent 10 years as the sort of chief creative officer at Vox. And so I got a uplose and personal look at the digital transformation of the news and and and media industry, particularly on the sort of magazine and and digital media front. Um, I learned a ton about advertising and and creating content, whether that’s long form content, advertising content, short form written content, building YouTube channels, launching podcasts. And then in 2015, I decided that it was time to, you know, really pursue my dream of of getting into the Hollywood business. So, uh, I think the deal was I had sort of three years, you know, of like lifeline support and and just go out and see what you can figure out. And um and two years to the day after moving to Los Angeles, we sold our first television series. And uh we sold like four more after that. And so that created Vox Media Studios, which I which I led uh for from uh yeah from 2015 to 2023 when I or 24 when I left to start Pro Shop. And you know, all the while I had this idea for a golf show percolating in the back of my mind. And I ended up as executive producer of over 50 TV shows, you know, across the the premium television landscape right at the perfect time as the streaming wars were booming. And Full Swing was this kind of ongoing white whale for me where I had first met the PGA Tour executives in 2012 when they were looking for some help building out a digital media business. Ironically, the business that ended up being created out of those conversations was Scratch, although we didn’t get that contract. So I had to watch someone else go and build that idea that we had sort of percolated with the tour. But that created a relationship with the media team there. Uh particularly Chris Wandell who now leads uh the media team and the advertising team over at the tour. And and so you know I’d see him every year at industry events or you know ad industry events and yeah I started pitching him on doing this doc series and I think I first pitched him in 2016 when I just moved to LA and you know I was kind of a nobody producer. I didn’t have any credits to my name, but by 2019, you know, I probably had 25 credits and and they started to pay a little more attention. I think the big differentiator was, you know, a new commissioner. So, you know, it was always if we were going to make a show about pro golf, we had to have have it sort of be warts and all. That was our that was our mantra with the tour. You know, it couldn’t be it couldn’t be like sanitized. It couldn’t feel like branded content. you know, the players had to be able to cuss and show emotion and and really feel like real human beings. And I don’t think that was going to work in the uh in the Fincham era, but when Jay became commissioner, Jay Monahan, uh there was sort of new guard in town. I think they felt like they had an opportunity or an obligation to create a new batch of stars kind of post tiger. You know, they knew that wasn’t going to last forever. And so, there was a willingness to engage. And at this point, I think I maybe just pestered them for long enough that they s thought, “All right, well, let’s let’s give him a chance.” So, Full Swing was created on the golf course at Shadow Creek during CES. I went out with the with Chris and the PGA Tour media team. Over that 18 holes, we we put together the the founding deal that led to full swing and uh you know, three months later, I found myself at the Players Championship, you know, shaking hands with the PGA Tour brass and and had the exclusive rights to do a dock series on the PGA Tour. you know, two years later after getting Augusta and the rest of the governing bodies and signing 25 players, uh, the show premiered on Netflix. So, the the one thing that I wanted to mention, you know, we we came out right after Drive to Survive, which I think had really created one show. That’s right. And that created an entirely new category of sports follow docs that really looked at the entire season. you know, historically it was it you had your sort of 30 for30s, you know, your classic sports documentaries looking back on a moment in history, these historical docs. Um, and then obviously Hard Knocks, I think, you know, was probably the industry leader. And in fact, Hard Knocks was the core inspiration for Full Swing originally. What I loved about Hard Knocks was this notion that it was individual storylines, and I felt like that paralleled the the life of a of a PGA Tour player. So, originally, and I don’t think I’ve ever actually said this before publicly, but the original idea for Full Swing was a 12 episode quick turn doc series that would shoot during the week of the PGA Tour events and then premiere the Wednesday before, you know, the the first round of the next week’s event. Wow. And uh and so we had it was and we had a we had a great team that was sort of built to do that. A bunch of exhardnox people had come together to do it. and uh and the the show was going to run from uh the Sentry so obviously Kapalua and concluded the players because you know the PGA tour could give me its rights but once the major started you know we were on our own um while we were developing that project so you got to go back to 2019 I get the rights in March so at players you know 2019 March of 2019 I finally have the rights from the PGA tour we start to decide are we going to go take this to market and try and sell it obviously we weren’t going to do it in 19 so we were sort of targeting beginning the show in 2020. I think you see where this is probably going. Um, so the next step was to sign some players and the PGA Tour, as you well know and as listeners and viewers of your show, I’m sure know, they can’t make their players do anything. So, they basically said, “Look, we’re willing to introduce you to some agents, but that’s kind of about it. We need to be Switzerland here. We can’t really play favorites. We can’t ask on your behalf uh for players to participate.” So my they made a few intros and I made a big spreadsheet and my plan was to go to the masters on a general admission ticket, stand outside the rope line of the big tree and just flag down agents that I recognized with the, you know, photos I had printed out on my paper because they didn’t have our cell phones, you know, at at the Masters. And so I did that and and the first agent I met with was uh was Jordan Spece agent Jay Danzy. and he told me I was crazy that nobody would ever sign up for it but if they ever would what they would need to see was X Y and Z and and he gave me a lot of great advice and you know the the the meetings I had uh led to a handful of conversations. The first player actually to commit was Justin Thomas. So big credit to JT for for kind of jumping in. Our our initial cast was JT, Tony Fenow, and Cam Champ actually also said yes that he had just come off of sort of two wins. Um, and so then we entered into a conversation with I felt like we needed at least four before we could take it to market. We were looking at who’s the most marketable player not named Tiger Woods. There’s one answer. It’s Ricky Fowler. Yeah. So, we started the conversation with Ricky and and that negotiation to kind of get him into the show uh took about nine months. And so, now we’ve got our sort of initial four. It’s fall of 2019 and we decide, okay, let’s let’s just wait and and take this to market. let’s let’s see if we could sign another four players. We’re not going to be able to get this sold and up on its feet fast enough for the 2020 season. So, let’s just use that as a year to kind of continue to build some momentum uh and and get this, you know, in market in in the summer of 2020. Now, the timing could not have been better because obviously we all know what happens in in in March of 2020 the entire world shuts down for COVID. But in addition to that, at about the same time when the entire world is stuck indoors, Drive to Survive season 2 premieres on Netflix and becomes a global hit. And now all of a sudden, Netflix is looking around for a another sports doc that could follow in the vein of Drive to Survive. Our show is sitting right there, you know, halfbuilt at this point. And you’ve got the relationships with Netflix. Got the relationships with Netflix. So we were trusted there. So that immediately became a real opportunity and Netflix essentially said, “We’ll we’ll be interested in greenlighting this show, but it’s got to be not quick turn. So we’re going to do it like Drive to Survive. We’re going to film for an entire year and then we’re going to release it all at once. We also need all the majors on board. And instead of four four to eight players, we need like 25.” And they had this list of of kind of ranked priority of players. And I I think of the 30 people on their list, I had to get like 10 of this group of names that, you know, are all the sort of boldfaced names you would imagine. Rory, Tiger, Phil, Brooks, Kepka, you know, Jordan Spe, all those guys. And so that began this process. I’ll never forget sitting in my uh my office in the middle of COVID, getting on a Zoom with Augusta National and just seeing a long conference table and the words Augusta National, you know, beneath their little window and and that’s a little intimidating. It was. And and I’ll say that, you know, my fandom and I think the fact that I had Georgia roots and and the fact that my pitch to them was not to do a better job of telling the story of the Masters than they ever could, cuz obviously I can’t. But my pitch to them was, I want to tell the story of what it’s like to be a player in the Masters. I want to take it from the player point of view. You guys are the best at telling the story of the tournament. There’s no there’s no chance that we would ever do that better than you. But I’ll have access to these guys for the entire year. And I can land what it feels like to be invited to the Masters, what it feels like to drive down Magnolia Lane, what it feels like to sign the book when you check in a way that, you know, maybe even you couldn’t because I’ve been with them all year and I can show what it means to them. And then it was kind of about getting the last name of of this list of pros. And I, funny enough, ironically or not, the last person to say yes. It was not it was not Jay. Actually, I had gotten I think JT had convinced Jordan to do it, but it was actually Brooks Kepka who was the final player and uh and he had just, you know, they’d been in the bubble all year and he and his caddy had watched every episode of Drive Survive both seasons and they were like, “All right, we’re going to do this for our sport. Let’s do it.” And so Brooks was the last player to say yes and he was actually the first player ever interviewed for the show. So just a real uh real full circle there. This thing goes into production. you are um a top 10 show on Netflix. I know I know that you love golf. I know that you love golf, but the idea that it could extend the brand of golf beyond, you know, was it beyond what you thought it could be? Oh my god. Yes. I I think, you know, this was a nine-year process. It it first started in 2012 in that sort of first meeting with the tour. I had I had been through the ringer, you know, getting this thing put together. And at that point, all I cared was that it just got made, you know, period. That it got out there, I did it, I finished the drill, like it’s on the internet, you can watch it on Netflix. I had no idea it was going to be such a big hit. I remember when we signed the deal with Netflix, they they asked because I had, you know, I’m pitching, so I had all this great drama and high stakes and, you know, the sexy world and I my pitch was really strong. And then finally they signed the deal and they said, “Okay, let’s be honest. Like where’s the drama in pro golf?” And I was like, “Well, I real, you know, there’s some rules fiasco sometimes and people play slow and they get annoyed and you know, but there’s really not that much drama.” Of course, starting when we started. Oh my goodness. You know, you you couldn’t pick a better year because, you know, I’ll take I’ll take it the second month of production. You know, we’re shooting. It’s February. We’re we’re filming at the Genesis Invitational in Riviera. Um, I am upstairs. It’s a Tuesday. I’m upstairs in the press room, which is, by the way, one of the nicer press rooms across all the PGA Tour, the Riviera Clubhouse. Yeah. And all of a sudden, the entire room like starts murmuring and looking at their phones. And that was the moment that Phil Mickelson’s quotes from Alan Chipnuk had finally been surfaced about, you know, the Saudi league and and this this wasn’t just a a thing percolating in the background, but it was like a real thing happening. And so in real time, the the first year that our cameras are in the locker room, you have this massive fracture of this like really unique almost high schoolish culture of pro golf. It is a very small world and and they you know and so everybody is now looking across the locker room of like are you with me? Are you against me? Are you on team live? Are you on team tour? It just fractured the locker room immediately and it became this question of who’s staying and who’s going and who’s lying and who’s you know who’s getting offers and you know there was like jealousy and anger and and conflict just kind of like all year you know and it and it started with the first like wave of defectors and then obviously there was a group that left after the US Open and then finally Cam Smith kind of the final nail in the coffin for that year after winning the open championship at St. Andrews and, you know, beating Rory and probably the most heartbreaking atmosphere I’ve ever seen was sort of Rory’s that Sunday at St. Andrews and Rory, you know, couldn’t get it done and and and uh Cam, you know, won. I think that hurt worse. You felt it hurt worse than even like Pinehurst or LACC, you know, some of those heartbreaks for Rory that he’s had. And then afterwards, you get Cam Smith now leaving to go to live. So, you know, we we could not have picked a better year to start filming from a drama perspective. and and then all of a sudden golf which was this kind of sleepy sport was injected into the the you know geopolitics and and general sports. I mean they’re talking about it on Sports Center and you got Bill Simmons talking about it and you know and it just created this perfect like I don’t know microcosm not not microcosm but perfect uh environment perfect storm is what what it was perfect storm perfect storm of drama and and our show you know very publicly was right in the middle of it and we had players in the show that left while we were filming to go to live Ian Palter Dustin Johnson uh Brooks Kepka you know probably most famously you know he’s the second episode and and it and so I think there was a lot of inherent curiosity about the show when it premiered eventually, you know, the following year. But also it was a good show, you know, we had we had like really good storylines uh and really good payoff. You know, you had Matt Fitzpatrick winning a major, you know, at Brooklyn where he’d won a US US amer. Yeah. He won the US Open. You had Justin Thomas, you know, surviving to win at Southern Hills and this kind of contrast with Jordan Speath who was this kind of golden child. And you had Scotty Sheffller’s breakthrough at the Masters at the same time that the ultimate major killer, Brooks Kepka, sort of lost hope in his game. And and then, you know, a bunch of other great stories in between. And so I think we had we had a mix of like good storytelling. We had the right kind of interest because of the kind of intrigue around Liv. You know, everybody kind of want to see the train wreck up close. And then I think beyond that, like the the the world itself is like pretty appealing to a nonh hardcore sports fan. You know, it was just an absolute home run and and the ratings really supported it. I think even Netflix was shocked at how big it was when it came out. Listen, I want to get to Happy Gilmore 2 in a second, but I want to go back first. Are there lessons that can be learned from how you got to where you are from where you were? I mean, you were um you kind of came out of nowhere and kind of dug it out of the dirt. Um what are the lessons to be learned for a young business person who’s trying to do the same thing? You created something from nothing? Well, thanks Jimmy. I you know I think there’s I’ll answer this in two ways. One, I think with golf, it was hugely beneficial that I was an outsider, but I was an outsider who authentically understood the game and understood the sport and and golf media when I entered into it with full swing was the same 200 people who’d been doing it for 20 years. And so, you know, with a handful of like young, you know, podcasts like Noling Up and Shotgun Start and some, you know, some new media people doing their thing, but but it really helped that I wasn’t of the system. And so it it you know and I think that’s there’s something to be learned from from that and and just sort of how you how you build relationships when you’re new to something that then carry over kind of ex with the expectation that you’re going to be there for a long time. So that was that was one thing I think that really mattered. I think in terms of the other piece of it is I’ve always thought about my career as as not being particularly goal oriented which I know is you go to a lot of like you talk to a lot of business people and they’ve had these big goals their whole lives and you know they want to be CEO of X and they work every day to get to that. I never really saw my path that way. I thought about it more as direction. So, you know, to me, I saw where I wanted to be in my life and career as kind of like north. And to me, it was always about going north at all times. And I didn’t, you know, and what what was north to me would change as my career evolved, you know, and but it was like you’re never going to actually get there. It’s just am I going north? And every once in a while, I’d have some diversions and I’d have to reorient myself. Am I still going north or am I off, you know, am I moving east now? And just try to nudge yourself back to going north. And and so I like to think about it not as a goal but as more of a general direction for for building a career and building a life. And and uh and the other big important piece of advice I got was just to not try to skip the stairs. So you know just the other analogy I used for thinking about my career is kind of climbing a staircase in a skyscraper. You know you you really just need to step on every step. You you can’t jump stairs otherwise you might trip. And sometimes you’re climbing and sometimes you’re on a landing and maybe you’re making a turn, but there’s another stair to step on and then you kind of keep going. And so I’ve always tried to appreciate stepping on every stair and and being able to recognize how high you’ve climbed, but knowing that there’s still 2,000 steps above you. All right, let’s talk for a minute about Happy Gilmore 2. that I I just don’t know how to have a serious discussion with you about this because it just looks like it was probably so much fun. Um, and I everybody’s probably got their favorite line from the original movie and from from the from the sequel for me is the great line with Travis Kelsey of all people as the waiter taking an order from Jack Nicholas who’s in conversation and he asks him if he’d like something to drink and Jack says, “Yeah, I’ll have an iced tea and a lemonade, please.” And Travis Kelce says, “Oh, you mean Arnold Palmer?” And Jack says, “Oh, no. Uh, Jack Nichols, but I get that a lot.” Um, it was it was and Jack was so great. I I mean, he really really carried it off and you got to see a different side of a lot of people. How much first of all, how much fun was it to do this? I mean, it was as fun as you could ever imagine and uh and everybody had a blast. I think if you if you talk to Jack or you talk to any of the players that made cameos, it was just an awesome time. You know, Sandler just does such a great job of making that movie set feel like a like a community and a home. And it really, by the way, it is, he has a lot of the same crew members and cast members that he’s been working with for his entire career. So, you know, for 30 years felt like being on set every day I’d see another person from Water Boy or Billy Madison pop up and he’s been using the same producers and crew kind of the entire time. So, he’s fiercely loyal to his people and and that comes across in the sort of family atmosphere. Um, that one was was a dream come true. I thought kind of full swing was the apex of my golf fandom getting to do something in entertainment and never thought I’d have a chance to to be co-producer of of Happy Gilmore 2 which was you know my favorite golf movie as a kid and and how that came about also was a bit of a was an interesting story because yeah how did it happen? So Adam Adam had been you know sort of toying with the sequel for since the first movie was made. I mean, they had been talking about it when it became a cult classic. You know, I think there was ideas for a sequel. And it took him sort of 30 years, him and Tim Hurley, who’s the writer, to kind of get the script in a place where they felt like it really made sense. And I think, you know, you see the movie, it’s like him now kind of at his actual age trying to take one more run at it to help save regular golf. Um, so, you know, that timing really made sense. And then he had seen he had done a movie for Netflix called Hustle, which is a basketball film. It’s an awesome sports movie. If you haven’t seen it, it’s it’s a really really good sports movie and it it had a ton of real basketball in it and I think that more than any other sports movie like all the basketball and hustle is real basketball by play being played by real professional basketball players full of real coaches and real agents and the authenticity of the sports really comes through and so he had sort of wanted to bring the same level of authenticity to Happy Gilmore 2 from a golf perspective. Now obviously it’s a much more ridiculous kind of comedy. It’s a mad cap comedy, but he wanted it to be, you know, he wanted the events to feel and look and feel like real events. He wanted there to be real golfers in it. And so he was looking around for someone to kind of help bring the golf IQ of the movie up in terms of like delivering both a bunch of players, but also just making sure the golf felt really real. And so I interviewed for that job, you know, as the and Netflix was actually the ones who connected me with him. So, you know, they their sports team was like, “Well, if you’re looking to get golf here, like we have a golf show, executive producer. Yeah, you should go talk to this guy.” And and crazy enough, the first day that I met with them was the Friday at Valhalla where Scotty had been arrested. So, that was the first day I met Tim Hurley who was out visiting. And so, it was kind of a crazy day for him to be out there. Anyway, he’s like, “Is everything on golf like this?” You know, like you got Liv in season one, you got Scotty being arrested. I was like, “Well, it’s this is a unique day.” Um, and then I I went out and met with Adam and and ultimately, you know, kind of got invited to join the production. And I remember sitting in their office. The script was on massive lockdown. So, you know, I had to go read it in their office. And I’m sitting in the Happy Madison and I’m reading the script and I’m just taking notes. And he had said there was a few cameos in there and and as I get to the end, there’s I had 32 names written down on my on my little notepad of people that I was going to have to go and get. And and I I got to say we got every single one of them except for one and that was Tiger. Um but it was it was amazing to uh get one to hear how excited all the players were to do it and it it was not a hard sell to say hey do you want to be in Happy Gilmore 2? You know everybody loved that movie especially this like era of player. They all grew up with it. They all wanted to be a part of it. What was a lot harder was, you know, the the second part of that conversation, which is, okay, it’s 11 days, you know, of filming. And these are these are athletes that are not used to doing anything more than a half day, even for a big national commercial. And so to go to Rory Maroyy’s agent and say, I need him in New York for 10 days, you know, that was like, you got to be kidding me. But ultimately, you know, the players are the ones who said, look, I I don’t care what it takes. I I want to do they wanted to do it. And and I got to say this was completely unplanned, but it only worked because of the schedule and because of Adam’s filming schedule with other projects. The entirety of the production had to take place basically from September to December and which is the only time in the golf calendar where players are kind of not doing anything. It’s like their only off time. And so it worked out where we could get those guys up to New Jersey. We filmed the whole, you know, golf all the golfers, right? Up at Fiddler’s Elbow and a couple other places around New New Jersey. And um and so we brought them all in and and the the scene that you mentioned with Jack, that’s our champions dinner scene. That was the toughest one to pull off because there was 12 different cameos in that one scene. It was a two-day shoot. And I remember getting there the you know it was before dawn 4:30 in the morning and and every uh guest cameo had their own star trailer and I’m walking down the aisle of this you know parking area and it’s like Jack Nicholas Sir Nick Faldo Fred Couples Lee Trevino Cory Paven Keegan Bradley Jordan Speath Ricky Fowler Colin Morakawa uh I forget who oh Xer Xander Schoffley he was terrific terrific and that was the first day also that Travis Kelsey was on set. And so I remember when Jordan uh and and Ricky showed up with their wives at, you know, probably 8 a.m. They’re like, “Hey, can we go see this shoot? Like, what are you shooting?” So I’m like, “Yeah, yeah, come with me.” So we walk across the parking lot and the first thing they see is Travis Kelce’s shirtless getting mauled by a fake bear, you know, covered in honey, and they’re like, “Oh, we’re we’re not in Kansas anymore, are we?” You know, so but they all did great and and had a blast and were really really funny. Honestly, I thought like Xander killed it and and you know, Jack was great. Um, you also like Spith was great, too. Spe was great and the fact that they, you know, kind of they they made little jokes that played off of their persona. So, you know, Jordan being this plight golden child, you know, being complaining about his genetonic order, like so fun having Ricky be the sort of that’s what she said back and forth with Xander who you’d never expect was awesome. Uh, and then, you know, like guys like Will Zurus and Justin Thomas who were there, you know, a couple weeks before. I thought Will was incredible and and you know they they all could really act and really deliver and then and then we ended with the big four which was you know JT or sorry which was uh Brooks, Bryson, Rory and Scotty and one of my uh favorite memories from from that shoot was you know where they all stayed. So you know we put them up in uh hotel rooms and obviously like traveled them in and it’s they didn’t get paid a lot. It was like basically a SAG like extra rate. So they weren’t doing it for the money, but we were going to put him in nice places. And so I remember Rory stayed in the city at like a really nice hotel and had wanted to be in New York City cuz he was going to go do dinners and stuff afterwards. And Brooks Kepka wanted to be as close as possible to the filming location but in a really nice place. So we rented him like a nice horse farm house and he had he had like a chef and his you know his family there and not super surprising. Uh, and then Bryson stayed over at Trump Bedminster because he wanted to be able to produce content, so he thought he’d have access to a range, which I remember I think it the the the room was like $300 a night, which was hilarious. And I totally forgot where we stuck Scotty. And after the first day of filming with those four, I go back to the Crew Hotel, which is like a Hilton Garden Inn in Bedminster, New Jersey. And I’m exhausted but satisfied because we got them all there. And I’m walking in the lobby and who’s sitting there like eating a microwave burrito? Scotty Sheoffller. So, he was he was happy at the Crew Hotel and and I and I said, “What are you doing here?” You know, he’s like, “Listen, man. It’s just a bed, you know, like I figured we’d have early mornings and late nights.” And so, you know, just it says enough about Scotty. You know, he he was just happy with the rest of the crew. All right. Listen, let me get you out of here on this one and it’s a simple question. Can golf on television survive? Absolutely. I think all live sports can survive. I think live but how how is the key? I think the idea of continuing to think about the consumer product of that. I think if you look at the Masters I think if you look at the players championship you know limited commercials um epic storytelling golf is is fortunate that it’s played at very beautiful locations. So it’s it creates great scenery. I think the more that players can become characters in a wider drama uh which Full Swing has done I think a good job of of building up some of these players. But I think also the PGA Tour, you know, has needs to kind of build those characters and create rivalries and have good guys and bad guys and think about how to capture people’s imaginations to have those things play out on the golf course. Um, but yeah, I’m I’m bullish on on golf on TV. I think it’s it’s what’s been interesting on a more macro sense is that golf, putting aside pro golf, golf has gotten more popular than ever right now, right? And and a lot of that has been driven usually, you know, historically that’s been driven by the pro game. So whether it’s Francis WT or Bobby Jones or Arnold Palmer or Tiger Woods, these big booms in participation for golf have kind of always been led by the top of the sport. We’re in an era now where it’s the opposite. The boom in golf is happening ground, you know, kind of grassroots. It’s it’s actually getting people out playing golf. It’s actually being driven more by like LeBron James becoming obsessed with golf or Saquon Barkley becoming obsessed with golf than I think it is by, you know, Scotty and Rory and the PGA Tour. What’s interesting is you’re finally seeing PJ Tour ratings, I think, catching up to this consumer wave of interest in golf. And I think that that wave is is not showing any signs of slowing down. And so I wouldn’t expect the interest in the professional game to start slowing down either. Um, and I do think that golf has a lot of of good in terms of the tonnage, you know, and its ability to put a product out there. But I think that, you know, it has to be I think Brian Rollup says this all the time, you know, it’s about competitive par. It’s about scarcity and and it’s about making it feel simple. And I think like all great sports do that. The NFL does it the best. I think I think golf and the PJ tour has an opportunity to do it. So I I couldn’t be more bullish. I’m sort of betting my career on it. Jimmy, a man after my own heart. It’s all about the stories. Chad Mum, also the host, we should say, of Vanity Index. Great podcast. Thanks so much for spending some time with us today. Okay, so uh our next guest, I this is almost cheating to actually talk to this man in a formal session. Um John Miller. Everybody in the industry knows him because he’s been around forever. Presently, his title, I think, is president of acquisitions and partnerships at NBC Sports, but he has touched everything in this game and knows just about everybody, including me, John. Can’t tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to join us. Jimmy, or as I know you as JRo, it’s an honor and a privilege to be here. I’ve enjoyed the big swing since you guys have launched, and u I consider it a real uh honor and a treat to be a guest on the show. So happy to be here. That’s my man. Just as scripted. Um, all right. Let’s let’s start with the RDER Cup, which we’re just coming off of. I’m not even sure where to start with. I know you’re enormously proud of the relationship that you’ve engineered and taken great care with the PGA of America, but my goodness, last week, I I don’t even know what to say about it. It was embarrassing. I thought it was it was really rough because I I think a lot of people predicted, you know, some of the of the behavior when it was awarded to Beth Page, I don’t think anybody ever anticipated it would sink to the level that it did, which was unfortunate. What what’s sad about it, the writer Cup has become such a great event. I I actually think it’s the best event in all of sports, and I’ve told that and I and I still maintain that. And I hope that one hiccup or blemish doesn’t affect that. Uh the competition is great, the camaraderie is great. Um I always say that a European Rder Cup is often times a lot more fun than a than a US RDER Cup largely because of the fans in the crowd. And a few bad apples unfortunately spoiled it for a lot of other people. Uh the pe the majority of the people who were there were there to enjoy the golf and enjoy the competition, but you had a few knuckleheads who probably were overserved and who felt that they had to make it about themselves and and unfortunately diminished what was otherwise a terrific event on an spectacular venue. Um and so I hope that in retrospect we we look back on the on the 25 Writer Cup at Beth Page and pull a couple of good things out of it. Number one, the US made that amazing charge on Sunday where they only lost one match. I don’t think any team has ever gone into a Sunday down as many points as they were. Um, and number two, how well the Europeans played. I mean, people who want to take shots at the American team, I guess you can do that, but the fact of the matter is the Europeans played great golf on Friday and Saturday. The the Americans did not play badly. Um, and it was a really exceptional display of of great competition, some really good golf on arguably was one of the hardest courses, although the condition of the course wasn’t as tough as as other people remember it from either the O2 or 09 US Opens. Um, but it’s still Beth Paige. Um, and you still have to perform under the glaring spotlight that that is the RDER Cup. Yeah. One of the hardest golf courses I’ve ever played. Um, let’s talk about what’s next because I think listen, I’ve been to a bunch of RDER Cups in Europe as as you obviously have as well. And I think the difference is the crowd has been rockous and I would say probably annoying, but I don’t ever remember the line being crossed. Next time it’s in Ireland, it’s the 100th anniversary. Are you a little concerned about what this model might, you know, lead to? I I’m not. I think that a couple things. First of all, a Dare Manor, which is going to be a spectacular venue in 27. Um, I think that, you know, quite honestly, one of the things that I was disappointed in, I was disappointed a little bit that we didn’t, um, you know, get out in front of it. I would have thought the PGA of America, possibly Keegan Bradley would have basically said to the crowds, “Hey, let’s be good hosts um and and not encourage this kind of behavior.” And quite honestly, I think in Europe, whether it’s Luke Donald or whether it’s Justin Rose or whoever becomes the captain, they become the face and the voice of that Ryder Cup. And I think knowing Luke Donald as as we all do and also Guy Kennings and the European PGA, they will make it a point to make sure that the fans are are more I don’t want to say subdued because they’re certainly not subdued, but they’re not going to reach the levels that they do here. that kind of behavior you might see at a at a soccer game a long time ago, but you don’t even see that kind of behavior anymore at a at a Premier League game or a or a Champions League game. So, I don’t think you’re going to see that um in in Ireland. And when it comes back here in in 29 and Hazeline, I think that Minnesota, you know, there’s that expression Minnesota nice. I think that the folks in Minnesota are going to want to go out of their way to prove that they are respectful, good fans, and you won’t see this kind of behavior there either. I I really hope and think that the Beth Page crowd was an anomaly and we’re not going to see that going forward. And I know that the PGA of America has been properly um and appropriately Derek Spray came out and made some really good comments last week where he realized that they they should have done more. And so I think that we’ll I think we’ll see a different approach going forward. You think Beth Page as a site was a mistake? No, I don’t think it was a mistake. I look, I think it’s a great venue. I I think that not enough was done to to make sure that the crowd didn’t behave this way. And it’s tough, you know, with this many people out there uh to do that. One of the things that I noticed on Saturday, I was out on the sixth hole and I heard some things that were so vile and I I you can’t repeat them, but I noticed that people Well, actually, you you could hear, but we won’t. But I noticed that people in the crowd, there was a lot of self-p policing that the that the fans in the crowd immediately pointed to the the people who were misbehaving um and saying comments to Shane and Rory on that sick screen and security came and appropriately removed them from the grounds. Um I think that some people even took pictures and you know what happens when they post a picture on social media now from someone. Um, so I I think that kind of behavior is just is just unacceptable. Um, and I’m hoping that we’ve seen it once and never again. You know, the RDER Cup has an amazing history in so many ways. But the thing that I can’t get over is that this thing almost went out of business and it was it wasn’t that long ago, you know, we talked about it with Guy Kennings on the last podcast that we did. They lost their sponsorship in the early 80s, but in the early 90s, you were right there, right, at ground level when this thing almost went away. I love that story. I’ve told it a million times about Kiwa. Tell it again. So, this is a a great story and really the credit for the writer Cup coming to NBC belongs with Ken Shanzer, who was the executive vice president of NBC Sports and was my boss at the time. Um, earlier in 1989, 1990, we had lost Major League Baseball and and Ken was very aware of the RDER Cup, as was I. Um, and the RDER Cup until that point had been on tape, on cable, and on a oneweek delay. You were lucky if you saw highlights on ABC’s Wide World of Sports of it taking place at Mirfield or or the Belelfrey or whatever. Um, and so we had lost baseball and and Kenny went out and engineered a deal and we we brought the RDER Cup to NBC. Um, but we didn’t have any money to to pay a rights fee. We had a new boss and Dick Eversol and he charged us with filling 32 weeks of baseball programming, but we had no money to spend. So, we went out and identified two sponsors, Cadillac and IBM, who were also the sponsors of the Masters, and they were going to be the two exclusive advertisers in the RDER Cup. And we made that deal in January of 1990, shortly after we acquired the RDER Cup. Um, and basically they were going to pay us $2 million each. We were going to pay the PGA of America $2 million. It was going to cost us about a million dollars to produce the event. And if all went well, we’d make a million dollars for NBC. So everybody was happy. We were going to put three hours a day, Saturday and Sunday, live on NBC from Kioa. And USA Network was going to do some early morning coverage on Saturday and Sunday. And they were going to do Friday coverage. And uh all was well and good until the fall of 1990 when Iraq invaded Kuwait and America went to war with Operation Desert Storm. Um and as a result, if you remember in 1991, the bottom fell out of the television marketplace, specifically the golf and sports marketplace. So in May of 1991, both IBM and and Cadillac pulled out of their deals for the Ryder Cup. And in those days, a lot of this business was done on a handshake. I mean, there was paperwork, but they were both big NBC advertisers and they both pulled out and we were not going to sue two of our biggest advertisers, right? So, we had to go in and tell Dick that we had lost our sponsors. And Dick said, “Well, then get you got to get out of the deal.” And we basically said to him, “Dick, the Ryder Cup is four months away. We can’t get out of the deal.” He said, “Well, this is your deal. You better go out and sell it.” So, we went out and tried to sell it. I think Subaru was our official automotive. Um, long and short of it is we lost our shirts on that on that 91 RDER Cup. So, we go to we go to Kioa in September of of 91 and on Friday the US gets waxed. They’re down six-2 after Friday’s matches. And there was a lot of controversy and a lot of oncourse shenanigans between Sevy and Paul A. I mean, there was just a lot of stuff going on. Remember, there was the one ball rule. There were all kinds of issues that were going on. Coughing in guys back swings. I mean, you name it. It had a lot of drama. But Saturday morning at 7:00, I get a phone call from Carrie Hay telling me that there’s fog and that they’re not going to be able to start the forsomes at 8:00, but they’re going to be delayed till 9:30 or 10:00. Let’s just interrupt for one second and let people know and remind them that Carrie Hey, of course, is the um I don’t know what his title was back in ‘ 91, but he basically runs the RDER Cup competition and he still does it does a tremendous job of that. He’s really an exceptional uh event, you know, chairman, organizer, whatever. And yeah, so he called me and said we’re not going to be able to start till 10:00. So, what that meant was that we were not going to be able to finish the the coverage on NBC cuz we were scheduled to go off at 6:00. So, at 5:30, the US is making a furious charge back and all four matches are still on the front nine. So, I called Dick Eversol. There were no cell phones available in 1991. And I explained to him that Dick, we were not going to be finished by 6:00. All four US matches are still on the golf course. Dick was not a golfer. um and was already frustrated because this event was going to lose a lot of money. So after a couple of uh of choice uh word basically I told him we have to stay on the air. He said well don’t run any commercials. I said well you don’t have to worry about that because we really haven’t sold any commercials. Stayed on the air till dark which was about 10 minutes of 8 at Kiwa and the US came all the way back and tied the matches at 8. Uh so now we’re going into Sunday singles which had start which were going to start at 10:00. We had the AFC football package at that time with the NFL and the NFL had given us a clear out so that all of our games were going to be at 4:00 that afternoon. So the singles was scheduled to go from 10 to 6. Um and at 9:30 I’m in the production compound and our production manager comes out and says, “Uh Dick Eversol’s on the phone. He wants to talk to you right away.” And I’m thinking, boy, what else am I going to get fired before they singles? What what else is going to happen? And I get on the phone and he said, um, he said, ‘D did you get out of the 93 Rder Cup? Because he had we had strict instructions to get out of that second RDER Cup. And uh, I said, “No, Dick. We we haven’t had that conversation yet. We were going to wait until after the Ryder Cup to to address it. We’re just focused on getting through this weekend.” He said, “Well, don’t get out of it. I just got a phone call from Jack Welch, who was the chairman and CEO of General Electric, who owned NBC, who told Dick that the Ryder Cup was the greatest event he had ever watched. He loved it. He loved every minute of it. He had cancelled his Sunday morning golf game to stay home and watch um and to make sure we never lost the RDER Cup uh as long as he was uh overseeing NBC. So, obviously that afternoon was a very compelling day. You know, there’s the Marquia Kala Montgomery match. There’s the longer Hail Irwin match. The US ends up winning the Rder Cup at Kiwa. Dave Stockton was a tremendous captain. Um, and the rest, you know, as they say, is history. And we now have the Ryder Cup after doing three more extension. The last one I did with Pete Bvakqua in 2013, we have the Ryder Cup through 2031. So, I’m very proud of what it’s become. you know, Tommy Roy and his team along with Tom Randolph and the talent team that we have had done an amazing job of elevating the event to really what it is, which is more than just a golf event. It’s just a great sporting event and it’s become a great cultural event as well. Yeah. You know, the another funny element here, and we’ve talked about this before as well, is that in 1968, the uh Ryder Cup was actually owned by the PGA Tour, and they chose to give it up and just give it to the PGA of America, and instead they chose to keep the World Series of Golf, which doesn’t even exist anymore. Correct. And that was, you know, that’s that and selling the Allen of Manhattan for $24 are two of the great trades that have happened in history. But you’re right, Dean Beaman, Dean Beaman chose to give up the Ryder Cup to the PGA of America and uh you know, all credit to Joe Stanka and Jim Autry and then you know, obviously Seth Wah and Pete Bakqua and now Derek Sprag uh some really remarkable men who have have put forth great effort on the US’s side and then Guy Kennings over on the European PGA um and George O’Grady and Ken Scoffield before him have all been great partners of ours and so We’ve really enjoyed this relationship. You are a true relationships guy. You got every single one of those names in. Uh you are also uh and you may or may not know this. Behind your back, you’re referred to as the hardest working man in rock and roll. Um this is the guy who created the American Century Championship among other things. But you’re the guy responsible for making Charles Barkley a golf icon, a golf icon, I should say. How in the world did this happen? Well, you know, Charles is really a remarkable character and a and it and what you see is what you get. He is as genuine a person as you could ever want to meet. And he started coming to the American Century when it was the Isuzu back in the early 90s. Again, another property that we created once we lost Major League Baseball. um started coming and has come every year and doesn’t miss it. Including several years ago where he had two bad hips and he was scheduled to go in for hip surgery and he postponed his hip surgery because he didn’t want to miss the American Century Championship. He walked all 18 holes all three days even though he was offered a cart. Um he went through all of the criticism and ridicule and and tough times with the hitch in his swing. He’s now got that corrected. He’s playing great golf. He’s, you know, scoring incredibly well. He loves the game, but more than anything, he loves the people and and the people of Lake Tahoe love him. So much so that when they had those fires probably now 10 years ago, very quietly he wrote a significant six-f figureure check to the first responders and the folks of Lake Tahoe as well as throwing a party on his own nickel for all the first responders and their families. Um there not many people in sports like Charles Barkley and he’s a national treasure and I’m thrilled that he comes to Tahoe every year. I tell people that we may lose Justin Timberlake, we may lose all kinds of stars one year to the next, but the biggest star we have out there is Charles Barkley. Yeah, they really do love him out there. It’s an extraordinary event. Are you a little bit surprised that it’s lasted this long and been able to maintain the popularity that it has? When we started this event in 1990, we had 3,500 people show up. We actually had a guy with a sandwich board out on the corner of Highway 50 north of the club trying to recruit people to come down to watch. Um, this year we had over a 100,000 people. We have 80 or so players who play. We probably have 75 players on a what we call a backup list. Um, it’s never an easy decision. Sometimes when you have to make cuts, we try to bring 10 to 12 new players in every year, which means 10 to 12 players have to stay home. But I’m I’m really proud of it. It’s become another event that, you know, is on people’s calendars. You know, Jimmy, what’s funny about golf is that there are only a handful of tournaments that are played on the same course every year. obviously Pebble Beach, Augusta, uh the American Century Championship, but you know, other course, other big events, they rotate. You know, the Open Championship rotates around. Uh the US Open rotates around, the PGA Championship plays different courses every year. The players championship is obviously at at Saw at TBC Sawrass, but there are very few courses where people really kind of get to know the holes. they know the scene. The scene on 17 with the boats um is is really a a spectacle. So I um and it comes in a time in the summer when you can get the NFL players, the NBA players, NHL stars, so you get a good collection of uh of name brands out there, which makes it fun. Yeah, it’s really something special. Um are you comfortable if I call you old school? Not at all. So, if you’re old school, tell me what you think of new school when it comes to golf. Because golf now in terms of the media is not anything like it was even, let’s say, 15 years ago. Well, I think that that golf has has been a little bit slow to change, but they’ve made made some good changes and I think they’re embracing, you know, a bigger, wider audience. They’ve expanded their reach to include kids. you’ve got more women playing golf. I think, you know, technology has made the sport a lot more accessible to people. Um, you know, I think things like, you know, pop shot and Top Golf U are good things for people. I think getting access to players, um, ming up players, some of the things that Tommy Roy um, has done in his broadcast had brought the game closer to people. I’m a big fan that the game is continuing to to grow and improve and embrace new audiences. And I’m really excited about Brian Rolap who’s um who’s coming on to take over uh for Jay Monahan who was a great friend and I think did a good job. But I think Brian brings the NFL mentality and and some really interesting concepts and ideas to the PGA Tour and I think that’s going to be exciting as well. Can golf survive on conventional TV? I don’t think there’s anybody who’s kind of more deeply dug into the facts on this than you are. I I think I think they’re smart that they understand the value of linear of what we call linear versus digital television. And I think that, you know, people continue to watch. Look, the audience is still an older uh affluent audience that still embraces linear television. We just did a six-year extension with the USGAA, which continues to keep the US open and the US women’s open on traditional television, obviously the Golf Channel. So, I think it can continue and I think it will continue to thrive and I think there’s enough support out there from sponsors uh who activate against the game and and from the governing bodies to keep it front and center uh and to help grow the game. So yeah, I do think it can I think it can exist and and I think it can thrive. Do you you think it can thrive? I mean because let me just play devil’s advocate for a second here. We talked a moment ago about, you know, where golf is now culturally. We talk about social media. One of the biggest complaints that you hear on social media is that, you know, there are too many commercials on golf on TV. You know, my position would be, well, somebody’s got to pay for it, right? Uh uh but you know it hasn’t quieted the chorus. No. How do you how do you feel about that? I I I think that’s right. Look, putting on an event like the writer cup, what we just did, it’s like covering 18 different, you know, events. You have a you have a full collection of cameras on the on the T- box in the fairway on the green. Then you have the traveling cameras that are going with the walkers. I mean it is an enormously expensive and and difficult event to produce that costs a lot of money. You have to recoup that investment. I mean this is not a you know it’s not it a public service. Exactly. And you know fortunately for us there have been some advances in the way golf is covered uh where you do a commercial free hour like we did on Sunday or you do the side by side. So, it’s called Playing Through, which is a concept that we pioneered um at NBC and that, you know, we’ve used extensively for both the PGA Tour and and the USGAA and obviously the Ryder Cup so that you can stay you can have a commercial up there, but also see what’s going on. I I know I get frustrated watching it as well. you know, you get into it and it’s it doesn’t lend itself as well as sports like football or baseball or even the NBA do to natural breaks. That’s not golf. Um, and so you’ve got to find a way to to cover your cost and cover your investment. And we’re constantly working with the governing bodies with the PGA, the USGAA, and certainly the PGA Tour to try to make it as unobtrru unobtrusive as possible. But it’s still the the commercials are going to be there. If you’re the commissioner of all of golf, what’s one thing you change to make it better? Um I think I I think scarcity there’s real value with scarcity. And what I mean by that is that you know there’s golf on every weekend and sometimes the fields are not the best fields and they’re not stars. And I realize that the tour while on the one hand wants to provide playing opportunities, but I think, you know, as evidenced by things like the Ryder Cup or the US Open or the Masters, people want to see the best players playing. Um, and so I think if there’s a way to to do something with the game where you could put the best players out there on a more regular basis, I think that’s going to be good for golf. I mean, I also think you want to see them playing the best courses. I loved watching the Walker Cup from Cypress. Cypress is a course you rarely ever see, if ever. Um, and I and I credit the USGAA for putting the Walker Cup there when they put the Walker Cup at at Nationals several years ago or or Pine Valley. I think people want to see events played on the best courses. So, I think if we can find a a flight to quality on courses and on fields, that’s going to help grow the game as well. You know, John, you talk about scarcity. And I think as strange as this is going to sound, you might be able to lay all of this at the feet of Tiger Woods because when Tiger was so enormously successful, I think what the PGA Tour did was they decided, hm, you know, let’s get on television every possible opportunity because every time he’s out there, you know, tons and tons of people are watching. Well, Tiger Woods was Haley’s comet, right? And you know, when he’s not in the field, what you ended up with was, you know, golf becoming basically what tennis has become, too much all over the place. And so people turn away. Well, I I will tell you when I first got into the business and got into the sports business, there was um 100 college basketball games available on television. That was it. 100 college basketball games. Last year, I believe there were 4,400 college basketball games available to either watch or stream linear cable, direct to consumer, however you want to put it. College basketball is a great sport, but it’s everywhere and it loses its specialness. And what concerns me a little bit is just to have a golf tournament on every weekend, but not to have players. And these guys are all great golfers. Don’t I don’t want to take anything away from the quality of play, but I I think that people tend to watch stars. NASCAR is an unbelievable sport. They do 39 cup races um every year. Every one of their stars is on the grid for those races. Every one of those stars is on the grid for those 39 races. Um and I think when you’re a NASCAR fan, you know, you’re going to see Chase Elliott, you’re going to see Joey Logano. Um when Dale Arhard Jr. ran, you knew you were going to see Dale Hernard Jr. and I think knowing that your stars are going to be out there is really important. So, I think that’s one of the things that we have to to look forward to look forward to. Yeah. You know, you talk about scarcity and it’s basically basic economic theory. If you want to make something more valuable, you don’t make more of it, you make less of it. Right. You make less of it, you make it more valuable. So, you asked me my I’ve got two favorite golf stories. Um, okay. I I’m glad I’m I’m glad I knew if I gave you a moment you’d be able to come up with it. So, you know, they it relates to um started off in Tahoe. So, Michael Jordan um as you all know is a huge Rder Cup fan. I mean, he he loves this event. And when Michael first came to Lake Tahoe and played in the celebrity, I would tell him after the 91, 93, and 95 RDER Cups, you’ve got to come to a Ryder Cup, Michael. It’s the best event in sports. Now, here here am I, you know, just little programming nebish trying to tell the greatest basketball player and arguably one of the greatest athletes of of our generation or any generation what the greatest event in sports was. And he would look at me and just kind of laugh and I would say, “Really?” I’d say, “You do it, you got to see it.” So, in 1997, the writer Cup was in Valorama. That’s right. And on Friday evening after play, I got a phone call and it’s an unknown number and I’m over in Spain and I answer the phone and it’s Michael and he said, “I’m over in Spain on vacation and I know the Ryder Cup is going on in Spain and Gatorade has given me use of a helicopter. If I came over, could you get me in?” Stupid question. Could I get you in? Said of course get you in. So he says, “Okay, I’m going to come over tomorrow morning. Can you pick me up?” And I said, ‘Yeah, we’ll have someone come pick you up. So he landed just outside of Valdama. We got a car come pick him up. We snuck him in through the um through the NBC catering tent. He immediately goes out on the course, jumps on Tom Kite’s cart. The US had been losing. He’s there. He gets Tiger fired up. He gets all the team fired up. They end up taking the lead after Saturday’s play. and then he obviously had to leave and go back. Um they ended up losing that Ryder Cup. But when he left that Saturday night, he looked at me and he said, “You were right. This is the greatest event I’ve ever been to. I’m never missing another one.” And sure enough, he now makes it his point. He makes it his business to come. He brings a bunch of guys. He came this year. He watched all day, every day, and loved every minute of it. And so he’s been America’s biggest cheerleader. I know he gets he knows the guys on both sides, but he is clearly red, white, and blue all the way and loves the event. And my sec I’m going to I’m going to cheat here. I’m going to tell you a second favorite story because it involves somebody who you and I have an unbelievable amount of affection for and who we miss terribly and it was the most important influence in my golf life and that’s Arnold Palmer. Oh yeah. In 1994, Alistister Johnson and I came up with this idea to create a fatherson golf tournament because we knew that Lee Trevino and Arnold and Jack and Gary weren’t playing competitive golf anymore and people still wanted to see them and we we still thought it was important that they see them. So we came up with this event which Arnold felt as you know was the most important event in golf after the Masters in the US Open. He he thought the father son because of what it represented and how important golf was and how that legacy gets passed down from one generation to another. So in 2008 we had lost our title sponsor. We had gone into a recession and we went three years without a title sponsor. And every year when we would go down and do the Bay Hill tournament and we would sit in the Lexington Cottage and you would sit there and do your great interviews with Arnold every year, he would always give me a hard time about how come we hadn’t found a title sponsor for the father son. And it was somewhat embarrassing for me, first of all, because I I believed it was a great event and we couldn’t find anybody. But to get yelled at by Arnold Palmer is never a fun thing. And in 2011, we’re at the P at the Bay Hill Invitational, and Jim Roar, who was at the time the chairman of PNC, happened to be in the Lexington Cottage, paying Arnold a visit. And Arnold starts giving me a hard time. And he immediately pivots and he turns to Jim Roar and he says, “You know what, Jim? PNC is going to become the new sponsor of the father son.” And Jim Roar kind of looks up and goes, “What?” And he says, “Yeah, you guys are going to step in and become the sponsor of this event.” It’s the most important event in golf. And Jim looks at me and I said, “We’ll we’ll figure out a way to work something out.” And that was, you know, 15 years ago. And PNC, it’s now the PNC Championship. They are an unbelievably great partner for this event, much like American Century is. And it all came out of Arnold yelling at me and then basically turning around and yelling at Jim Roar. So, those are two of my uh two of my favorite golf stories. Arnold loved to play in that event with his grandson Sam Saunders. He really really was quite fond of that. So listen, the last I don’t know however long it was, 45 minutes, half hour has been ample proof that if you should ever wander into a bar and there’s an empty seat next to John Miller, you want to take it, but be prepared to stay a while. John, can’t thank you enough for spending the time with us. Thanks, Jimmy. It was my my treat and my pleasure. Good luck with Big Swing. It’s great. The Big Swing with Jimmy Roberts is executive produced by Adrien Gallagher and Jimmy Roberts. Produced by Alex Resnik and edited by Sarah Chubnick. The show is a production of Big Swing Media. Fred Bucher, CEO, Jimmy Roberts, Chief Content Officer, Spence Kramer, Chief Operating Officer. Special thanks to Gil Caps, Jackson Roberts, Matt Casey, Frankie Brea, and Jack Joiner.
