ForeRight Podcast Episode 9 – Ryder Cup, Charles Tour

Jay and Scott reflect on the Ryder Cup at Bethpage. They talk about some strokes gained data and some of the decisions made. They also review the Charles Tour events from the Mount and Tauranga. Scott also introduces Jay to blind rankings.

All right, we’re back with another podcast fresh off the RDER Cup which finished this morning. Now Jay, you’re not a big golf watcher, but over the weekend you told me you were quite interested in watching the RDER Cup and I am guessing you probably watched a little bit this morning. So what what is it about the RDER Cup that got you invested this week? Uh I love the match I do love the match play. I love the different format and then I think I wonder if that’s what live golf were trying to do, you know, like trying to create a team based thing that you Oh, hell. I’m not sure about the setups, buddy. Um, I wonder if that’s what Live Golf were trying to do, a team-based format that, you know, like you could really get stuck in and get behind your team and get passionate and um cuz I I mean, I’m not European and I’m not American, but I was massively supporting the Europeans. I think the different format I think match play is cool. I think seeing those guys as mates rather than against each other is cool. And the golf was unbelievable especially over the weekend in the four ball and the foresomes and then I think just the tension and this morning. Did you you obviously watched it. You are a bit of a golf watcher. Yeah, I did watch a little bit of it. I watched it on delay and I got a message. I was on about a 2hour delay and I got a message saying surely the Europe Europeans can’t blow this. So, I said, “I want a delay. Don’t tell me the result.” And then I just put my phone on airplane mode for two hours while I watched it. So, I didn’t I couldn’t check any social media or anything and and ruin it. Um, yeah, it’s pretty cool. I There was one moment when I can’t remember who it was went up and hugged Bryson and it was a a non-live player went up and hugged Bryson. It’s like, man, that so cool to see the camaraderie and the team because you’ve seen all the bickering over the last few years between the PJ tour and live and the people that have left and now they’re on the same team and it’s so cool to see them as teammates and how they all support Brahm and Cheryl Hatton and the European side. So, yeah, I love that team stuff, too. Yeah. Do you reckon there’s a place for it? I mean, it’s every two years. The President’s Cup doesn’t hold, I don’t think. And obviously we’re from that region of the internationals, but it doesn’t yet hold that same I guess cuz uh international teams never won, but it it doesn’t quite hold that same uh intrigue or something about it, but I do you think that’s where Liv were trying to get to or are trying to get to? I think so. I have to I have to imagine that the the way they’ve got the team format and even the way that John Ram and Terrell Hatton get on they’re on the same Liv team and the way they’ve talked about sort of getting to know each other and being really good mates. I think that Liv was trying to go for something like that and they’ve got their their pile on when they they have their coverage and they always show the team scores as well. So, I have to imagine they were going for for something like that. And with the international team, yeah, they really need to to win one of them to probably push that President’s Cup along because it would be cool to eventually get somewhere like that. And maybe it’s a little bit harder because the it’s kind of the rest of the world. Europe’s a little bit closer together and they all kind of they’re not too far apart from each other. Whereas the rest of the world, you’ve got South Africans and the Kiwis and the Canadians and the Koreans, Japanese. It’s quite a as well Australians. Yeah, it’s a it feels like a a wider range of cultures than you kind of get with the Europeans. Yeah. I thought the other thing that was cool Sorry. Go ahead. What was cool? Well, at the end they’re interviewing Rory and he’s crying and Shane Lowry is crying and I think even Scotty Shiffler might have shed a tear. Um, and they can’t speak and you think and everyone always talks about the money they make and they all play for money but you know there’s no money in this but they’re all it’s the biggest you know they don’t even cry when they win major championships. Um, so that must be pretty cool. Yeah, it was cool to hear cool to hear Shane Lowry in his interview says, “I’ve been really fortunate to do some cool things in my career, but the Ryder Cup holds something special.” And he says, “Even though I’ve won the Open Championship in Ireland in front of the home crowd, this is still the coolest thing I’ve ever done.” Yeah. And the other thing that was wicked, I think, from a mindset point of view is him and Terrell Hat. I think I think it was Terrell Hen both sort of said that was the worst two hours of my life that back n the hardest two hours of my life but then they love it. So that you know like I think from a mindset point of view just that desire to step into that place of this is horrible but I’m but I’m here and I wouldn’t change it for anything. Like that’s a bit of a um a bit of conflict or something you know bit of dissonance there to go why what’s happening there? That was the hardest two hours of my life. But how amazing it is. I mean, Lowry’s reaction looked like he didn’t know what to do with his body when he was jumping around. He didn’t know what to do. He was like a little kid. Like he was running around. Didn’t know where his limbs were. He didn’t know where to run, who to look at. Yeah, it was pretty cool to see. Yeah, that um imagine uh I reckon it’s a better Well, I’ve never been to Roter Cup, so this probably a dumb thing to say, but I was talking with a couple of mates this morning saying, I wonder if it’s better on TV cuz you can actually the coverage is amazing, right? Like the tracking, the ball tracking, you get a better sense of where the flags are. And if you’re there, you’re probably five rows deep. um and potentially amongst that was the only probably disappointing thing is they hear about the crowd um and some of the abuse and stuff that got thrown like that feels like a shame to me at least. Yeah, I’ve actually got that in the in my notes to talk about how how that kind of started and they hired people to start chants and maybe they weren’t doing the one swearing at Rory. Maybe they weren’t starting there. Maybe that was crowd uh crowd led. But yeah, it is a shame because like Roy said in in his interview afterwards, why can’t you just support the player? He said playing against Scotty, he hardly heard any cheers for Scotty, but he heard a lot of cheers against himself. Yeah. Like as a supporter, wouldn’t you want to go and cheer for your team rather than go to cheer against the other team? Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I I almost reckoned it backfired as well, like the way that it racked up the Europeans, I reckon on those first couple of days. Um, and it probably potentially it may have embarrassed some of the American players like I don’t know, I think about if if I was playing at home and people were booing my opponents, I’d feel a bit stink about that and I’d feel a bit conscious about it. So, I don’t know, maybe does it did it have the negative effect? Was it as was it a good thing or I think it probably fired up some of those uh European players? Yeah, I think it fired them up a little bit. I was really impressed with JT actually. He was quietening the crowd down a couple of times and asking them to be quiet. He he looked like he was quite embarrassed for their appearance. Yeah. Yeah. So, that was cool to see sort of the humanity there rather than kind of it’ be easier just to hide and go, “Oh, hey, that’s not me.” It was nice for him to step up and try and do something little about it. Yeah. Um, who did Larry play today? Was he did he play Henley? Yeah, Henley left the putt short on the same line that Larry had. Yeah. on the last and it just like he’s pretty good putter and it just it was all set up for him to hold that and keep the thing going. Um and and uh Hoyard played Ben Griffin eh is that right? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Griffin won the end. Yeah, I think so. Y um cuz Henley and Lowry today were strokes gained 3.92 and 3.71 respectively. So they were the two best players strokes gained going head-to-head and the two worst players. So hold on to just in today’s round just over the Okay. Yeah. No, just today and then um Hoygard and Griffin were the two worst players strokes gained and and Griffin won one up. It makes you think. It’s amazing. I look through some of the data and it like you’re you rise to your level or you fall to the like there must it’s weird, isn’t it? how close the guy got especially with so many tied matches and oneup um matches. I guess that makes sense cuz the strokes game is going to be the same but no one really smashed anyone today. I mean Ram lost maybe what did he lose? Three and two or four and Xander won four and three against Ram. Yeah, they were kind of the only two one side ones. Fitzpatrick was five up through seven against Bryson but yeah getting a half at the end. Yeah. Um I saw Bryson. I reckon he’d be a wicked team captain and yeah. Um I don’t know. I’m not a I’m not a golf watcher and I’m not a YouTube watcher either. So I don’t really follow Bryson. But I heard he’s had a massive um turnaround in popularity. But whether you’re a Bryson fan or not, I think because of his data analytics and and his math sort of brain, I reckon he would be a wicked team captain. cuz I I I heard I read something that there’s 132 possible combinations to put out in the forsomes and four ball based on everyone playing with everybody. You know, there’s 12 in a team and 11 of them. The US twice and from a data analytics point of view, they ranked like the best pairings in each team and and Europeans basically did all their pairings off data analytics. twice. The Europe uh the American team put out the 132nd ranked team from data analytics. Oh wow. And and both of them the worst. Yeah. You put the worst possible pairing you could from a math point of view. You want to know that math isn’t everything and it’s there’s variance and all that stuff. But that’s interesting to go twice they put out the very worst possible combination. Uh and obviously well not obviously but they also lost um both of those matches whereas the and that’s why I reckon Bryson I’m not sure that he would probably make that mistake. I think it was Harris English and Colin Moricawa and they were up I was going to guess if it was if it was that pairing. Yeah. Yeah. 132 out of 132. um on the Harris English they talked about I saw a video before the Ryder Cup and it was about the name they put in the envelope at the start and quite often it’s never revealed. Yeah. They burn it as Ryder Cup it was. Yeah. And it’s like they never know. What do you think about that? Obviously both teams agree that it’s going to be shared. It’s going to be a half match. Yeah. What do you think about that? Is that Do you think that’s the right way to to do that? Think it should be a substitute? Well, it’s hard differently. It’s hard because you got all 14 players playing. Yeah. Um, so that makes it a little bit hard. Is it 14? Yeah. Well, imagine if it was like the someone of the one of the captains of vice captain was Keegan Bradley versus Alex Norin or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. For the substitutes. Yeah, that’d be quite cool. I I quite like it because it’s quite quirky. I think it certainly Well, I mean, the US could look at it and go, “Well, that sucks. That cost us a point.” But you never know. Um I guess if he was that injured, he couldn’t have played and couldn’t have won. So um and ultimately both teams agreed that that was what they would do. So it wasn’t it didn’t feel like the Europeans were trying to game the system and and I don’t think you would like if you’re a player you would be I mean Hovlin must have been gutted to miss that. Um and Paul Harris English now like everyone knows he was in the envelope. Um, that would be a bit stink. Uh, but it’s a quirky rule and I quite like quirky rules. I think feel like you’re gonna throw something back at me. Hey. Yeah. No, I can see that you would quite like a quirky rule. Yeah. And Yeah. I don’t think I don’t I don’t imagine I’ve used it as a tool because it would just be gusseted to not not play amongst that. Like those guys said, that was the hardest two hours of their life, but also they loved every minute of it. So, and also they only needed what two and a half points. So, why would you use it then? If maybe if you were if it was a bit close, you’re like, “Oh, I don’t know if we can win this one. We might use it.” But two and a half points away, you probably didn’t think you get that close. You wouldn’t want to look at stupid going, “Oh, yeah. We use that to get a half a point closer.” Um I I know that um Rory wears a Whoop band and he’s a massive Whoop advocate and I listen to a podcast on the Whoop podcast which is awesome with him. I I’d be it’d be fascinating I reckon to see cuz the emotional toll like he looked a bit like a dead man walking today. Um I just wrote this down when you when you talked about Larry and Hatton saying the hardest I was I wrote down like what would the whoop da say I would love to see the stress the body went through. Yeah it would be fascinating e because um I mean what do they play? They play I guess they play 36 holes, but it’s four sims and four ball. So, and it’s match play. Um, but yeah, I think it’ll be fascinating to see Rory’s data cuz I reckon he would have been cranked way up in strain. And I wonder what his recovery stuff was like. Although, I’m sure they have the best people and the best services and the best of everything to to manage that stuff. But it would be cool. Yeah, the forsomes is interesting because you’re only hitting half the shots, but I feel like you’re under twice the amount of stress. So, it probably balances it out. Yeah. I mean, even as club golfers, you know that when you got a three-footer, even if it’s a four ball or four serves, but when it’s you and your mate, you’re not just missing for you, you’re missing for him as well. That’s that’s where it really sucks. Oh, sorry, mate. Yeah. Actually, in the press conference afterwards, they asked Rory and they said, “Was it nice to give it back to the crowd and then stiff it to two feet?” Yeah. He said, “Absolutely.” And then Tommy Fleetwood chirped up from the background and said he didn’t stiff it. It was two feet and I had to put it. Well, actually, Tommy Fleetwood was strokes, he was the top strokes gained for the week. Um he almost went five and0. Yeah. Um plus 6.24 strokes gained and that’s with minus.27 putting. Holy m um strokes gained approach he was almost two shots better than anyone. Next player he was 5.64 and Cameron Young was 3.84. So he’s almost two shots better per round in approach play than anyone else. Wow. Unreal. Hey. Um, but yeah, not Yeah, that is un is unreal. Especially when you’ve got Scotty Sheffler, the best of the last almost 20 years now hand approach. Yeah. And he was he was still pretty good. Um Yeah. What what was Scotty’s data like? Because he he almost went 0 and5 almost did the opposite to Yeah. Yeah. And that was interesting like um when you go I think it was on Saturday I had a look um sale Saturday for ball. He lost the Saturday four ball. Eh yeah he was he was 0 and four going the last day. Yeah. Um he was uh what was he that day? Oh, he was like six strokes gained that on the Saturday. Four balls. He was Whoops. Yeah, he’s still middle of the pack. It wasn’t like he was he was last or Well, more the top of the pack like um cuz you know there’s 20 No, what is Yeah, 24 players. 16 16 play. Oh, yeah. Four matches each. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. called middle of the pack. Um so yeah, he was pretty much above average most of them. Um except for the Friday Friday morning. Uh and then I think today he might have been a bit a bit average him and yeah, he was a bit average today. Him and Rory. Um but they cough a bit of a hard time, eh? But that’s where that pairing seems bloody interesting and the strategies behind how they did that. It’ be fascinating to get some inside word on that. Yeah, I was I was surprised and I haven’t looked at any of the strategy or sort of the best teams. I was surprised that Scotty and Bryson played together in one of the one of the four balls. I wondered if they tried to sort of get Bryson to to amp him up and maybe feed off him. I thought there was an interesting pairing just with the the two characters. Yeah, it sounded a bit like that. E, like it was a trying to get him to carry carry along. Um I I heard an interesting comment which I hadn’t thought about. Keegan said Keegan Bradley said they asked him about a review which is a tough question on on the 18th hole but um and he said he might have set the course up a bit differently. So obviously the home team have the option to set the course up how they want to. Uh which I thought was interesting and it was you know it was low rough and it was soft greens and the Americans probably thought for their sort of bomb and gouge type play that was an advantage compared to the Europeans but obviously I don’t think it worked as well. Yes. Another note that I’ve got I first I didn’t realize that they had the option to to set it up but I guess it makes sense. I mean, knowing cricket pretty well, the the home team are going to do what suits their bowlers or their batters and try and set it up for that. So, I guess it makes sense. Um, Keegan did say they didn’t expect the Greens to be that soft, right? And thought it would play firmer and faster. So, that was obviously a bit of a surprise, but yeah, I would love to know what what they did, what they changed, or what they thought was going to benefit them. Maybe it was yeah the shorter rough and and that but um yeah I was I was surprised that they they did get to set the course up or have as much say in that. But then thinking back I remember they did talk about that in Italy the last one they talked about they use data to favor their their players. It’ll be interesting to see what where they were stronger and what they did to change it how it would normally be set up. Yeah. And it’ll be interesting to see if Luke Donald stays on e as captain. It will be. And and also maybe a little surprising. But what about Keegan? Because I’ve I’ve never been a Keegan Bradley fan. And when they selected him, I was a bit surprised. But the more I thought about it, the more it makes sense. He’s like the the true blue American. He’s a little bit like a Patrick Reed in a way for me. Like just wears his heart on his sleeve, like pure American. um guy in it. And although they didn’t do too well, he looked like he did a good job as captain, apart from like the the pairings in the course, but apart from that, the the final stuff leading up, it looked like he was doing a really good job and everyone had the respect of of him. So, I mean, after the first two days, the USGA or PJ of America probably threw his name out for ever doing it again. But do you think he gets another opportunity? Yeah, good question. Cuz the players seem to love him. E, like they all spoke really highly of him, which was pretty cool. Um, and I guess you’ve got almost I don’t know what I was thinking today. It was a little bit like the 2011 Rugby World Cup final, you know, when the All Blacks beat France and you hate every minute of it, but the players talk about loving that um 87 victory that everyone thought was going to be a um, you know, a walk-in. Um, but then like think about all the lessons that Keegan’s learned, I assume. Yeah. That you can take into the next one. Whereas if you bring someone new in, you potentially make the same mistakes. Although I’m sure they hand over some pretty good data. Although maybe they don’t. Um, or do they go to Tiger next? Yeah, it’s a good question. He’s an obvious one. E, but he kept in the president’s cup. Was it you telling me that? It wasn’t that. Someone told me that but then and then he played himself which is I guess he was number four in the world at the time but and uh in Melvin but I guess if you don’t you do that. I’m interested in it’s hard is it just a little bit emotionally emotional. I haven’t looked at the stats but the amount of shots that hit the pin or they just feel like they hit it so close and it’s a small field so it’s not like we’re just watching the the leaders. Yeah, the amount of shots that go close and then the first guy hits it close and the second guy does the same thing and answers there. Like I have to imagine they’re still using decade or whatever their their sort of course strategy system is. There seems to be a lot of shots that go close like Henley’s shot on the last out of that fairway bunker to a back left flag and he’s missed that long left where it looked like there’s only about 12 ft to the edge of the green. Yeah, it’s a pretty small margin. Not that he was aiming there, but there seems to be a lot of shots that go that go really close. Is it just the match play element where you kind of the guy hits it in the rough and he hits an average chip and they just pick it up and move on, so you don’t really pay too much attention? I don’t know. I think it is I think it’s a bit of match play because you saw probably more shortsiding, I reckon, than you’d normally see on a um on a normal PJ tour event. We also are looking at the best 24 basically the best 24 players in the world. Um or 50 players in the world. Um and and I think I read somewhere that like Luke Donald from his peering point of view he would put someone who maybe was a little bit more conservative and safe and made a heap of you know I guess a solid no bogeies not many birdies with someone that made that hit made a lot of birdies. So they’d have the one guy hit, I guess, middle of the green and um you know, like almost secure the par and then the other guy go for it, whether that actually happened or not. But yeah, it was amazing how many shots just went stiff. Um but I wonder whether you know like you do that in match play, stroke play and you make a double bogey or a triple bogey, that’s on your card for 72 holes, whereas you do in match play, you lose the hole and you’re like, “Oh well.” Cuz I saw um someone won a hole with a bogey today, didn’t they? Or no, there was a whole half in bogeies at least. I saw a part for a bogey for the half at least. Yeah. Yeah. And so that’s when you kind of go, oh well, you know, stroke play that’s with you for the whole round, but if you’ve h haveved it, it’s like, oh, wipe that off. Um, an interesting thought that just came up there was one of the par threes that might have been one of the earlier holes, potentially the third or whatever that one was, but um, it was like a front right flag and the commentator said, “Oh, this doesn’t suit him.” It may have been Cam Young cuz he hits draws or something like that. Oh, this this flag doesn’t suit him. And he hit it to like 3 ft. He just did a straight one straight the flag to three feet. And it really pissed me off that the one he he said it in the first place, but two, he didn’t go, “Oh, I was wrong.” He just sort of just left it. And that sticks with the viewer who goes, and it’s kind of like that decade thing, like you can hit a draw into any target. You can hit a fade into any target. But because they saw the front right flag, they assumed that the best way to get there was by hitting a big high loopy fade to get it. And the guys hit it to three feet. Just an interesting point. Yeah. Funny enough, they said I think they said that about Bob McIntyre on the No, maybe was the par three, not 17, maybe 14. Um, and they had right right hand flag and they’re like, “Oh, this will suit the left-hander.” I was thinking, why would it suit a left-hander? It was weird. Um, if anything, I think it would probably suit a righthander if you’re going to get fussy about it. But anyway, um, yeah, I don’t know the whole strategy thing. Uh it’d be you can see why clubs and tour groups and stuff try and do those sort of writer cup formats. E because it just looks fun. Yeah, it does. It really does. Now the other thing I’ve got down here is I’ve just written a note. Leaving putts short. I don’t know how to quite frame this, but does your strategy change with putting speed in match play? It should. I don’t think it should because the harder you hit it, the effective size of the hole gets smaller. But the amount of putts that are sort of just short and it frustrates me when the commentators, oh no, you can’t leave it short or like you can. Yeah, it’s still the next one’s good. Better than hit it 4T past and having to putt it. There seem to be a lot of a lot of putts left short. Where do you stand on on that? Would you hit them a little harder in in match play knowing that one the score doesn’t stick on your card for 72 holes like being shortsided? I don’t think so cuz I think you’re still trying to you know hit it at good holding speed that one of um Morawa maybe on 15 today like it was half a roll short right the jaws I can see how frustrating that would be. Um but equally you get the one that you hit like um Bob McIntyre when he three putted like he hit that too hard so hits the lip and spits it out. So, um, yeah. Uh, I mean, statistically speaking, if you’re a follower of Scott Forset, um, you know, or you believe or follow his thinking that, um, you know, you’re going to the best putters in the world, uh, yeah, the best putters in the world leave more putts short from long range. Um, and that hole you have to be up to be in is a bit of a myth because as you say, the speed changes, the relative hole size. Um, it’ be interesting to see like today there’d be so many players reviewing the day in their head going, “Oh, if only.” And like we all do after we play. Yeah. Where do you standless putt? Uh, I tend to like to dial my putts in anyway. I don’t like having that three or four footer coming back. So, I tend to just try and drop them in just over there. So, I don’t think I would change that. Uh and and we might touch on this point later on because uh we’ll talk about the Charles talks. Josh Gary had a had a significant putt on the 18th yesterday. But yeah, I don’t don’t think my strategy would change if I left it short. I left it short and I take the 2 in or you know one foot. Thanks, I’ll pick that up. It’s good. Yeah. I think the thing with that Russell Henley one is you I mean, the demons that are on in my head on a any given 8 foot putt to win a match against a mate versus millions of people watching, you know, hundreds of thousands there live. Imagine the noise in his head. like you it’d be hard to just say I would have hit I would have hit that to the hole cuz I mean that would be it’s impossible to know what’s going on in his head but he potentially went I’ve got a heap of adrenaline here. Yeah, I know that’s going to cause me to hit harder. So respond to that by hitting it a little softer and it just came off a touch too soft. Like he’s probably made a really good adjustment for what he was feeling and what he knows would potentially happen and it’s just happened to just be short. Good thing Larry held his. Yeah, I think they needed that e just to get that get the half secured. What were you going to say about Russell Henley? No, nothing. Was I was I going to say something? But I’m sure before you started by saying Russell Henley, but then you I asked you what you thought about the speed thing and you changed your text. Oh, no. Yeah, the 18th flight like it’s impossible to know what was going through his head, but he he was I don’t know the pot would have only been about 12 ft or so and look sort of looked inside 15 ft, which typically you would try not to leave too far. Yeah, those ones you probably don’t like not like to get hit it too far past either, but um it’s just impossible to know going on. Two things I loved about it is I jumped the fence last night um and played a few holes because I was I loved watching the Ryder Cup and I loved watching um the last two Charles Tours events at Mount Mongu and Titango. So that’s the cool thing about golf is when it inspires you or if you watch it and it inspires you, you can go and take action. Like I watch the All Blacks but I don’t want to go and play rugby. um you know whereas I can go and um play a few holes and yeah I guess play my version. So, I think hopefully that’s a cool flow on. Um, and then I guess watching the Charles Tour events was pretty cool. And I guess if we just flip to that now, you know, Josh Gary 29 under par for four rounds around Tadonga. And that’s changed from a par 71, which the members played at to a par 70 with a par five changing to a par 4. Um, that is some absolutely phenomenal golf. I know it’s not the hardest golf course in the world, but he won by 13. So at 29 under tournament record, I mean the tournament’s been going for probably 20 years. Um, so that was impressive. And that inspired me to go, “Oh, that’s cool. I, you know, like I want to jump on and have a hit and see if I can shoot 2900.” No, I didn’t, Scott. Yeah. So the last couple of weeks we’ve had the Mount Open and the Tong Open and about a month out I decided that I’d make a little documentary on following a few of the players. So picked six players and had an interview with them a month out and sort of followed them along leading up to the tournaments and then spent quite a bit of time out on course videoing them to put a little documentary together. And fortunately for me, one of the players was Josh Gary. So, I got to see him hit a lot of shots and actually recorded quite a bit of it over the last two weeks, which is which was cool. And said to you sort of during the week, I haven’t actually watched a lot of golf as just an observer. I play with other golfers, but often I’m worried about my own game and I see them hit the ball, but I’m not really sort of noticing how they’re behaving or their language too much as much as sort of as a as an observer. It was really interesting to see and yeah, it was it was pretty impressive. But after this after the first round where he shot six eight under eight under the first round was at 62. He said he didn’t hit it that well. And I’ve heard that a few times from players who have good rounds. I didn’t hit it that well. But I recorded probably 12 or 13 holes of him and none of them sounded that great and he didn’t actually hit it that well and he probably has quite high standards, but there was nothing that was really pure out of the middle and flush, but he does such a good job of just keeping the ball in play. If I don’t hit the ball well, there’ll be some in the race course and there’ll be some lost up trees and it’ll be three fairways over. That’s my version of not hitting it well. But his version of not hitting it well is still keeping it in play and and never shooting himself out of out of a hole or out of a tournament. I think he only made two bogeies all week. And it’s just it was really impressive to see a player who didn’t have everything that day but still get his ball around the golf course. Yeah. One thing I think is impressive as well with that is that that sec the second hole at Tonga for those that aren’t familiar um most of the players in the field especially given a wind um that number two played downwind for most of the week most players can comfortably get it on with driver some even threewood par four and double tier green uh with the instead of a front to back tier a right to left tier the gap between the trees to get on the green about 35 mters. Uh, and with data now, like players would know how often they can hit it between that 35 m window. And I suspect for most of those players, it’s it’s probably around about 40%. And I think it was you telling me that Josh went, “Oh, look, to a right pin, I’m willing to take that risk on cuz if I hit in the trees, I I can feel like I can still manage par, but to a left pin, um, or a back left pin, maybe.” And so I think in the second or third round he hit six iron off the tea and and a wedge onto the green and I stood on the back of that green and watched a few. I didn’t see many birdies. I didn’t see anyone lay up and I didn’t see many birdies and I saw a heap of bogeies. So you know just that clarity and giving it some thought and not just saying oh 280 m par four I hit driver cuz he did hit driver sometimes um but then other times obviously hit the six iron and he had deep understanding of his game. So I asked him about that. So I was standing behind the green and the group in front were on the green. So the they were on the tea waiting and two of them hit from the tea and then they walked off. And I thought, “Oh, I must have missed Josh. He must have laid up.” Which I thought was quite surprising. And asked him about it. He said the wind was off the left with a tuck left flag. And he said, “Yeah, I that that wind direction didn’t suit me for the shot that I wanted to hit. And if the flag was on the right, I would have been willing to take it on. But I sort of just thought the the right play is this. And this at this stage he probably had a three or four shot lead in the second round. He said the best thing about that was actually sticking to that decision because quite comfortable around the golf course. He knows he’s going to make plenty of birdies. But he was still happy to go, no, this is the right decision. I’m not just going to hit driver for the sake of it. which I think a lot of players get up there and they go, “Oh, I’m not going to win the tournament or I’m three or four shots inside the cut line, it’s fine.” Rather than actually, no, no, this is my plan. This is the best way to play the hole, which I’ve already determined, and they sort of go away from that. And also, what are the boys going to say if I lay up? you know, like you get that um you get the sort of ego hit or a bit of abuse, but obviously Josh is he’s the Koma tour of the of the Charles tour, so no one’s going to give him any so he probably can give away. But there is that ego piece as well, I think, which plays a part. The other thing mate with that golf course and I would take Josh out of it. Um if you play it as a par 71, so 17 as a par five, the majority of those players in the field cuz it’s so short can get to nine of those greens in under regulation. All things it’s probably a bit of a stretch cuz for a couple of them you probably need some wind assistance. But if you then thought what would a good what you know what would I mean 29 under is remarkable but I wonder if you had and I don’t think the best players in the world would it’s hard to go much lower than that but the next was sort of what 15 under no might have been 16 under you know what I wonder what par really is for those guys that can hit it that far and the conditions relatively benign most of the week. Thoughts? Yeah. Yeah, it’s a great question. Um had this conversation as well before, but the first 10 holes there’s three par threes, but the other seven you can get on and under regulation, but you also have the other side of that and go in five of those. You have either out of bounds or penalty area right on your backside on the left hand side. So equally, you can just pull a couple or just get a couple of toe strikes and you’re hitting either three off the tea or um or sort of struggling to make your bogey. So that can happen to it. But if you’re driving the ball well, there is an opportunity to to get under regulation on seven of those first 10 holes. And yeah, kind of play them as as really long path threes if you have some wind assistance. sort of really long par threes where it might be a par three and a half but seven of those holes. Yeah. And you alluded to it at the start. Josh had a pretty impressive last round. Like five shot lead going into the last round. Was he five ahead going into the last round? Um tell me your thoughts like what you know what are you thinking of? Not sure if you’ve been five ahead going into the last round. I certainly haven’t. But I’d imagine it would be pretty easy to play quite defensively on a course like that where you can like Josh could probably shoot 68 left-handed. Um what do you reckon his strategy was or what even knowing what he did? Yes, I caught up with him quite late. It was on the 15th. So there were five other players I was following in the field and was kind of watching them knowing Josh had a nice lead and I thought I’ll follow him for the last couple of holes. But when I joined him on 15, he almost hold his approach shot made birdie and then hold a really nice part on 16 and then he needed a birdie one of the last two for for 59. I asked him about it afterwards and he said it was on 14 where he got up and down for par and he realized that there was an opportunity and it was nice to have that because he was so far ahead. there was no danger of losing the tournament, but it kind of allowed him to refocus and and sort of stay in the moment and go, “Okay, I can still chase 59 and that it also be 30 under.” He he said he became aware of that on about 14. And yeah, gave himself a pretty good opportunity to do that. Um, and going circling back to what we talked about with the the putting, he hit it to a back right flag on 18 and he said he kind of wish he hit a 50 degree rather than his sand wedge and try to take a little bit of the spin off to get it away all the way back to the the flag cuz he kind of hit a sand wedge as soon as he hit it. He knew it was landing sort of 15 ft short and it just spun all the way back. So, probably had a close to 45 50 footer for 59 on the on the last. But he he said he was he was well aware of what it was. He took a little bit extra time reading it and he said, “Whatever you do, just make sure this gets past the hole. Don’t be the guy that leaves it in the jaws in front of all these people.” He said, “I was prepared to for putt it for the opportunity to to get it to the hole and and give myself an opportunity to to sort of ram one in the back of the hole.” Yeah, that’s pretty cool, eh? Um but I think it’s impressive to have a five shot. Pretty good, too. Yeah. Yeah, I’ll be keen to see on I assume you got that on your footage. Yeah. Yeah. Um but pretty impressive, I think, to have a five shot lead and go out and put the hammer down and shoot 10 under in the last round. Yeah. Shoot 60 when you’ve got a five shot lead when you know that 68 would have done it anyway. Yeah. Or it turned out even par would have done it. Yeah. Um, did you know I think that’s I think there’s been three 59s in Charles Tours um at Tonga Golf Club. That would have been the first one teeing off the first hole to do it. Wow. The other three. No, neither did I. David Mangan, who’s uh Golf New Zealand tournament championships director, manager. I’m not sure what his title is. Probably should know that. Uh he told me that if he gets it, he’ll be the first one to do it off the first TE. So next time you play a Tonger and you think you’ve drawn the shorts draw cuz you’re playing off 11, it’s actually could be your chance to shoot 59, brother. It’s nice to hear that because I often say to players it’s I I prefer to tee off 11 because it kind of gives me eight holes to hang in there and figure out what’s going on and then I go all right I got an idea of how I’m rolling the ball or how I’m striking it or where my miss is going today on the getable holes which I feel like are 1 to 10. Yeah, cuz like you said before 1 to 10. I remember Josh Gary years ago. I mean is that what the sixth time he’s won that event? Is it six he’s won? I think it’s six. Yeah, I think it was six. Yeah. Um and that’s cool thing like Caris has sponsored that every year since day one. It’s the longest running um it’s the longest running Charles Tour event in the country and we’ve had one sponsor the whole time. So massive shout out to Caris because obviously with um tournaments they can’t go ahead without some pretty cool um people. Um Sir Paul and Lady Cheryl Adams and their son Scott Adams. That’s been massive. Um, and call it a local lad and and Josh Gary won it. Um, forgot where I was going with that. Scott, what was I saying? He won six times. Talking about 10 off 11. 10 off 11. Oh, yes. Sorry. I remember years ago Josh said, uh, he goes, I just try and go I try and be 10 under through 10 and then just hang on for grim death. Um, so just go for it on those first 10 holes and then just hang on because the back nine is a longer, it’s not long, but it’s longer. And after you’ve played all these drivable path fours, all of a sudden when you’ve got a wedge in your hand for your second, it feels like you’re playing um the longest course on the planet. But there’s OB left the whole way pretty much coming home. So um yeah, what’s that? There’s OB left and right for some of us. Bloody 17th hole. Um, so there were two events. Young Cooper Moore won at the mount. His first Charles tour victory. You’ve had a little bit to do with Cooper. It’s pretty cool for him to get his name on the board against a pretty tough field. So Josh Gary was in that leading up to round one, maybe midway through round two. Sam Jones was right in the mix before he had a disaster in the early in the last round. But that was pretty cool for Cooper to get his name on the board there. Yeah, really cool. and he played with Sam for three of those rounds too. And yeah, think about that. Sam Jones DP World Tour play last year, challenge tour, what do they call it now? Hotel Planner Tour this year. Um, so for Cooper to be able to be with him and playing with him and see firsthand and ask him a couple of questions, Cooper’s a gun. He’s only just turned 17. Won the Aussie Junior. Uh, won the Asia-Pacific Junior up in Hong Kong earlier in the year. Uh, he played in the Asian Amina last year in Japan. came top 10 in that which you know like those those guys are pretty bloody good when you get to the top players in Asia but really well organized young man like he does everything really well he’s diligent he’s a good learner um strikes the ball beautifully Josh Gary reckons he’s the best he’s seen out of New Zealand in sort of 20 years so that’s a that’s pretty nice and and you know Sam Sam equally is impressed with with his game. Um he’s off to the Eisenhower Trophy next week in Singapore. Um which will be awesome for him joining Zack Swanwick and Robbie Turble with the New Zealand team. Uh one of the cool things I was watching obviously the Rder Cup this morning and the the gap between the amter golf now and professional golf is so small with the top amters. Ludvig Arberg I mean he played Ryder Cup last time in 2023. He played in the Eisenhower trophy as an amateur in 2022. Like he played when we were in France. Um Victor Hovland and Hoyard and Moricawa they played the year that Dan Denzel, Dan Hillier, Denzel Edmir and Kerry Mount Castle played. Um John Ram and Scotty Sheffler played before that. So you look through those teams. Actually, I should do it and I’ll I’ll let you know. But I suspect a little bit harder for the Americans. I know Bryson played a little bit harder because you only get three players to choose from every two years. Um but it is the Eisenhower trophy is literally a who’s who of golf. Josh Gary played two for New Zealand which is no mean feat because it’s as I said it’s bianual event. Um but yeah going back to Cooper he’s uh he’s got that next week. Um, so they’re playing the mount and Tadonga quite nice like gets the win at the mount didn’t go didn’t I mean I think he finished fifth at Tadonga maybe. Um, so not you know no mean feat for a 17-y old kid but um quite nice that he still has that little bit of edge to go h some guy just beat me by 14. Um so he doesn’t go all to the Eisenhower all Billy big bananas you know he’s still got that bit of edge which Cougar wouldn’t anyway to be honest. Did you watch much of him? Uh, he was in in one of the groups of the players I was watching, I think, at the Mount. So, I saw a little bit of him. I do feel quite good, though, because I had a mate turn up on the Thursday morning of the Mount Open and sort of said who to look out for. He’s a member of the Mount. Doesn’t really know many of the players, kind of only Josh and Sam. And I just said to one of the players, there was a there was a short list and one of them I said, “Just look, keep your eye on Cooper as well. Pretty good name for the future.” And he obviously ended up winning. I didn’t pick him to win it, but I said, “Keep your eye on Cooper.” And he saw me at the end of the week. He goes, “Oh, that’s the guy you told me to keep an eye on.” So, that was pretty cool. Yeah. Nice. I think one of the cool things about watching Cooper and and Josh alluded to this and you mentioned it earlier. He said he didn’t play his best um last week which we all kind of you know that freaks you out a bit to go 29 under. Um but you know like Tong is a golf course where you can get away with stuff and I’m certainly not saying that Josh did but watching Cooper he’s middle of every fairway. He’s on he’s on the smart side of pretty much every flag. So you could almost I think you can sometimes watch a player um and I’m not saying again I’m not saying this was Josh but you could sometimes watch a player shoot 64 at a course like toer and go yeah well done but you would have been found out on a you know on a championship test of golf cuz you missed you hit it on the next fairway on a championship course and you’re chipping out sideways not hitting a wedge over the trees but Cooper doesn’t do that so Cooper you could almost pick his game up and transplant it and I had this conversation um with a few people cuz Kazuma when he comes up we’ll often go and play kinlock cuz he loves the challenge of kinlock and we play one day down there in a breezy conditions off the black te’s and he’s not very long or certainly by standards he hits it past me which I’m not very long so but you know like it’s not like he’s a muppet um but he shot 66 we went down there breezy conditions I had probably 83 um I think he was giving me 12 shots so he won um but what I’d say to people is if I picked up that 83, if I could somehow put that into AI and say what would I have shot at Tonga hitting it like that, I reckon I would have shot probably 72. So let’s say 11 shots better. There’s no way he’s going to be 66. He’s not going to be 11 shots better. He may have shot 64. In fact, sometimes you can play worse. And so that’s where those championship courses, I think, become levelless. And and then probably that’s how Cooper would reflect on his game. it would be around his own standards of what he’s trying to achieve rather than necessarily um what a score is or what how the course presented and I think I’m not sure if you noticed that but he doesn’t miss too many shots e that was pretty impressive to watch. Yeah, like I said, he was he was in the middle of most fairways and I watched a little bit of Jaden Ford the first day. So, he shot seven under at Tonga and he was in a few left and right fairways and as they say, you can get away with it. And it may have been a slightly off day for him, but he he got away with it and managed to still score pretty well. But maybe that was why he didn’t find himself at the top of the leaderboard come the end of the week because it’s pretty tough to do that for four outs. Yeah, I think he was third in his defense. Jaden, um, yeah, uh, you did say at the start of this chat that you had a surprise for me, which I’m a little bit nervous about, but I feel like now’s the time for the surprise. All right. Um, have you ever seen the trend of blind ranking something? No. Okay. So, I am going to give you five players. I think five. I’ve got a bigger list here. That how I’m going to frame it. That if you turned up at your home course, oh, to play around with um would be your top five. So, you got to rank them in order of best to worst players to play with, famous golfers to play with. Yes. So, I’m going to give you the names in in a random order, and you have to you have to list them one to five, but you it’s blind rankings. You don’t know who’s coming next. Oh, right. Okay, that’s good. I like it. Right. I think I like it. So, your first player. Um, the first I’m going to give you is Alex Norin. Hold on. Have you done this yourself? Have I done what? I’d like to know at the end of it. I’d like to know what your actual rank what your rankings would be for this group. You can’t do it because it’s blind. But so I didn’t mean that more. Oh, these at the end I would like to know your rankings. Right. Sorry. Who was the first one? Okay. Um so I didn’t hear who you these are these are these are targeted for you and who I think might be tough decisions for you potentially. Right. So the first player is Alex Norin. So one, two, three, four or five. One. One. Yes. Because do you know what? Before the advent of social media, Alex Norin used to write a blog and I would read his blog. Though the people who I used to coach of that era would know that I was a massive Alex Noran fan. You may have even been aware of that. It’s just why he’s on the list, Jay. Yeah. Yeah. So he he’s number one. Okay. Yeah. Alex Noran. love him. All right. And this is this is when the this is the player in their prime as well, by the way. So, okay. Wood is next. Um, your next player is Toby Fleetwood. I’m going to say three because again, I love him. Yeah, three. Okay. Uh, next player is Bryson to Shambo. Five, maybe six. Your next player is Ludvig Oberg. Oh, this is good. Now I’m nervous. I want to say two, but um because I’ve seen him play as a kid. Well, not as a kid. I saw him play um in Paris. Uh, and I think Sweden may have won that year or they might have lost by a shot. In fact, here’s a fun fact for you. I think Sweden lost by a shot in the Eisenhower. And if you remember, the the golf course was Golf National in um France and Lydia where she won Olympic gold. And the 18th green and the 15th green are quite close to each other, but they’re separated by water. One of the Swedish players in one of the earlier rounds took dead aim at the 15th green while he was playing 18. Um thinking I don’t know what he was doing. Brain explosion. Um hit it to the wrong green. Made six. They lost by one. Uh they’re quite a long way apart. If you have a look on if you have a look on um Google, it’s it’s a it’s a miss. Um but so I’m going to put Ludvig at two. Okay. And your last player is the legendary Sevi Baseros. Ah, gutting. At number four. Number four. You’re such feels like a mistake. J feels like feels like a setup. My dog was named Cy. You know that. I know. Welcome to blind rankings. That is cool. Thanks for playing. Do you know the only difference would probably be CV would go to one um and everyone else would shift down one. Yeah. I feel like you’ve done pretty well there. Yeah. Yeah. What would your um Well, so do I get to do this to you next week? Yeah. So you can come up with a a sort of surprise game next week. Yeah. Nice. So you Yes. All right. Um, but honestly, I wonder if it’s still on the internet. Alex Norin, uh, he used to write this blog and blog and vlogs. He’d do video things. Um, I loved his his videos were so good. Yeah, him and Nicholas Lumpkkey. Um, I followed him. I went to the Irish Open a few weeks ago with um, Kazuma and I saw Nicholas Limkkey and I was like, “Oh, I want to follow him, man. He’s a he’s a legend. I remember him from the Alex Norn videos.” Um, so I followed him for a couple of holes, which is pretty cool. But yeah, before his time because Yeah. There was no social media in those days, I don’t think. Yeah. I think we’re talking gone absolutely viral. Yeah. Yeah. Too good. Cool. Good. Scott, it was all right. Should we end it there another time? Yeah. I’m excited. And I’ll do the blind test on you. Let’s do it. Cheers, brother. Say it.