Ryder Cup fallout: Unruly fans, the “Envelope Rule”, future captains! | Golf Channel Podcast

In this week’s edition, the guys break down what’s been a busy few days of fallout from the Ryder Cup, including discussion about fan behavior, what to do with the “Envelope Rule” and who should captain both teams for 2027 in Ireland. #Golf #RyderCup #GolfChannel

Chapters:
00:00: Welcome to the podcast!
01:00: PGA of America CEO Derek Sprague details what went wrong at Bethpage Black
14:00: Reaction to the interview, and our confidence level moving forward
22:00: Paul Azinger says Rory is “hypocritical” for criticizing the vulgarity and dishing out some of his own
28:30: Should the “Envelope Rule” be amended for 2027?
39:00: Leading candidates to lead the U.S. and European teams at Adare Manor

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Ryder Cup fallout: Unruly fans, the “Envelope Rule”, future captains! | Golf Channel Podcast
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Hello and welcome into this edition of the Golf Chill podcast with Rex and Lav. Well, we’re back again, folks, because quite frankly, there is just too much to unpack from the 45th RDER Cup, the fallout, the envelope rule, future captains for the Ryder Cup, but also the fan behavior. And Rex, you had an opportunity earlier this week to speak with Derek Sprag, the CEO of the PJ of America, who talked about what went so wrong at Beth Page Black from a crowd control perspective and why we should be confident that this won’t happen again. Here’s that conversation now. All right, we’re joined now by the CEO of the PG of America, Derek Sprag. Derek, thank you so much for joining us and let’s get straight to it. I spoke with a member of the PG of America this morning who said he was quote disgusted in some of the fan behavior last week at Beth Paige. What would be your message to your membership about what happened last week? Well, certainly it’s not the the values of the PGA of America or 30 plus thousand PGA golf professionals that that work every day in this game to bring joy and and laughter and fun to to golf. And c certainly we did not witness that uh last year. Uh there’s no place for it in the in the RDER Cup, no place for it in the game of golf and uh we certainly uh are not happy what happened uh last week. What was your plan, the PG of America’s plan for crowd control and how did that evolve as the week went by? Yeah, I mean we we’ve been planning for a number of years uh going into this event like we do all our uh major championships of planning with the law enforcement and other uh security agencies and we certainly did that here for Beth Paige with we knew the RDER Cup is is the biggest event in in golf and and transcends many sports and we worked closely with the New York State Police. They were the lead agencies and then agency and then we had several layers of security including private uh security companies to deal with the with the uh amount of fans which is typical of a Ryder Cup. It’s not like we had any any large increase in numbers um or not. And uh we worked with them and with a plan and and like any live sporting event, we made sure we adjusted uh as the days went on and we reacted to fan behavior including removing uh a number of fans from the event um or you know moving them away from the players that they were uh being abusive to and heckling. Um, so we dealt with it swiftly and efficiently uh as we as we as it was made known to us, right? It’s a big golf course out there and and uh we had plenty of law enforcement with the players both sides of the fairways. Um, and when you’re looking in a large crowd, it’s it can be challenging to identify, but uh when they were identified, they were dealt with uh very quickly. Seems like the worst of it, Derek, happened on Saturday afternoon with Rory Maroy in that fourball pairing. specifically when was the call made to increase security around Rory and what was your level of concern when you started hearing reports from the golf course? Yeah, of course, as the CEO, you know, I let our team uh deal with that, you know, in in the moment, let them do their job. I have an incredible amount of trust and confidence with our security consultant and our team. He was working very closely with our ops team and our New York State Police and all the agencies. And and that’s an example, right? When we heard those things going on in Saturday, we immediately redirected uh more of the the security forces um to those matches that whether it’s Rory’s match or other matches or fan behavior and parts of the golf course. And then certainly going into Sunday, we made sure that uh we we kept that amount of security in place and made sure that it was um you know what we felt and our security consultants felt was the right amount of people to make sure that that one the players were safe, the fans uh would be dealt with swiftly if they got out of line. Now, Beth Paige is set to host the 2033 PGA Championship as well as the KPMG Women’s PGA in the future future based on what happened last week. Is there any thought right now? I know it’s still fresh, but of moving those championships because of crowd concerns. No, there’s no no thought of that. Uh Beth Paige Black is just a a great championship layout. Um you know, we have our 28 women’s PGA championship there, KPMG Women’s PJ and 28. And then certainly as you referenced the 33 PGA championship, we will take all all our debriefs from from this week. Everything from logistics. We were not perfect on logistics either. And we will be looking at that as well for the next two championships over the next eight years there. Uh as well as as uh making sure that we have the uh the right plans in place. That’s one thing I think that we we uh do well is that we will just learn from this event like we learn from all of our events and we try to make the the next PGA championship or the next RDER Cup the best uh it’s ever been and that’s what we intend to do here and carry from what we learned this past week into those championships going forward. Does the PGA take any responsibility for the pre-event messaging that crowds were going to be large and loud and difficult for the European team? Well, I think we take responsibility for for the the uh fan behavior, but the the message, right, New York fans, we knew going on going into this that they’re passionate, right? They love their sports teams here. Um, and I think, you know, and that’s what sort of makes the RDER Cup special is that they’re passionate on both sides. Rex, I’ve been to, this was my ninth Ryder Cup, so I’ve been to a number of them overseas as well as here. and um you know they are passionate on both sides and certainly we had a a a small number of fans that crossed the line here uh this past week. Uh so I don’t think it’s indicative of every fan there. Uh I’ve received emails and text messages. Fans had great experiences uh this week and sending thank yous and so whether they weren’t in the in the heat of the battle with those particular matches that may have had some some people uh cross the line. Um, so it’s been it’s been mixed, but certainly we we want to improve and and we do uh uh you know know that the fans are very passionate in that market and uh but there are no plans to change the venue. It’s just a great venue. Well, and to be fair and to weigh both sides here, why is Beth Paige Black as a venue for the PG of America, whether if that’s for the women’s championship or the PGA or even maybe a future Rder Cup, why is it important enough to maybe offset some of those? And you pointed out it was a pretty small minority of the crowd who was over the top. But how do you weigh that? Well, as far as selecting Beth Page as a venue. Yes. Yeah. Again, I think this is a great example when we announced 28 and 33 major championships. Um, you know, it’s just a great example of a private and public partnership and having five great golf courses at Beth Page and Beth Page Black obviously standing out as a great championship venue. Um, you know, it has a lot of space there, has a lot of space for our vendors and corporate hospitality and and this past week we had, you know, helicopter pads on one of the golf courses and the polo field was the staging area. I mean, it just has a and that’s one thing that when we select sites, uh, Rex, when people ask me, you know, privately or or publicly in this forum is that the golf course is just one one checkbox, if you will. We want to make sure it’s a championship golf course, but we also have to look outside the ropes. And we need a lot of space today for TV compounds, our vendors, corporate hospitality. I think you saw the layout there. And that was just on one side of the golf course, right? I mean, where brown swamp road was, uh, we had a lot of a lot of infrastructure and we just need a lot of space. So, that’s why Beth Paige Black lends itself so well to a major championship like the PGA or the KPMG Women’s or like last week’s REDRE Cup. Looking ahead a little bit, why should fans on both sides, Europe and on the United States, be confident that there won’t be similar episodes in Hazeline in 2029? Well, I think in in any championship that we want run uh Rex, whether it’s the Ryder Cup or any of our other majors uh on all the tours and with our partners at Ryder Cup Europe and talking to their leadership there, there is no place for this type of behavior that crosses the line. Our discussions will uh leading into a dare manner in two years time we will be talking with the leadership as we did this year right of how are we they had some you know they we had meetings in advance what are we going to do about the crowds if they get and we explained all the uh protocols we had in place and the New York State Police and they had a level of confidence that uh it would be dealt with and and we’ll do the same thing going into 2027 in Ireland to make sure that um you know we we uphold hold the integrity of the of and the sportsmanship uh of the RDER Cup, right? That’s when it started in 1927. It was it was about sportsmanship and the integrity of the game and the and and that’s what we want it to be and continue to be and uh it’s unfortunate that people cross the line last week and I hope it doesn’t take away from the brilliant play of both teams uh that we witnessed last week. I haven’t had a chance to look at the scores, but I’m hearing some just incredible scores like eight and nine under and forsomes and, you know, five under after six holes or six under after five holes. Um, I can’t wait to do a deep dive and look at how and I and I hope it doesn’t because these were the 24 best players in the world and I think they gave golf fans around the globe um just an incredible uh event to to tune into and we saw that with the ratings uh when the Americans were making a run on Sunday afternoon that people were tuning in and and uh that’s what the Ryder Cup should be remembered by and un unfortunately some people are going to had a bad experience, you’re going to remember it for the fan behavior or the long bus lines or or the traffic jams. Um, but uh let’s not take away from the great play that they had. Now, and to go specifically to someone that probably didn’t enjoy the process very much was Roy Maroy. He was clearly on the wrong end of a lot of comments coming from the crowd. I’m not sure if you’ve had a chance to talk with Rory or anyone from the European team, but if you did, what would your messaging be to them? Yeah, I talked a little bit to Paul McInley last night. I was at an event with him um and and some of your colleagues uh last evening. But look, I I know Rory and Erica. Eric used to work for the PJ of America. She’s from Rochester, New York. I’m from Malone, New York. I feel like I have this this New York bond with them, although it’s not New York City or Long Island. We’re we’re in the more, you know, we grew up in the rural areas of New York. And and we didn’t have any big sports teams near us to to get passionate too passionate about anyway. But um no, I haven’t spoken to Rory or or Eric. I do plan on sending them an email with my heartfelt um you know, apologies of what occurred. There’s no place for that in in the RDER Cup or in the game of golf. And I think Rory said it. I I heard a snip, right? We’re better than that in golf. And that’s one thing that our game uh has always sort of portrayed right around the around the world when you compare to other other sports is that golf is a is a great game and and people enjoy the game because of the values that the game of golf has and and uh I can’t wait to reach out to Rory and Erica and really quite frankly the entire European team although they as you mentioned they might have been a a target uh because of how good he is. Um, but you know, the whole European team should not be should not have been subjective to that and and uh because of that I you know I feel badly and I plan on apologizing to them. Now looking ahead and you this probably isn’t quite a fair question. You’re still in New York City. You’re still unpacking what happened last week. But how do you keep something like this from happening again in the future? Well, you know, uh, Rex, as you probably recall, uh, you know, I I was the co-chair of the RDER Cup task force back in 20 when we started in 2014 after Glenn Eagles, and Pete Bevak with the CEO then was the other co-chair, and we we talked about, you know, really the team and the captaincies and the vice captains and sort of asked more on the on the competition side. Uh but certainly we will um be doing a debrief internally from our ops team and all our our incredible employees at the PG of America. And then the writer cup committee will also talk about I’m sure they’ll be reflecting on on this and how we you know need to be able to that task force was was designed to how we can put the team in the best position to be successful and to have wins. And I think we did that in 14, we won in 16, we won in 2021. Um, so I think it showed some success um, coming out of that and uh, like I haven’t been involved in the last number of years, but I look forward to as a as a new CEO um, getting back on that task force or that Ryder Cup committee and seeing what we can do to not only make the, you know, competition to reflect the values of the RDER Cup, but also to give the American team I got to put my American hat on here for a second to give our our team the best chance of success. And I look forward to doing that in the near future. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time. I know it was a crazy week last week. So, thank you very much, Derek. Thank you, Rex, and thanks for everything you guys are doing to promote the game. And many thanks to Derek Sprag for joining us. I believe Rex, that’s the first time uh he’s done an interview since the Ryder Cup, and hopefully that was instructive for all of you who are watching and listening. You conducted the interview. What was your biggest takeaway from that conversation? I think first and foremost everybody just not in the PG of America but everybody in the universe of professional golf is is was pretty mortified by what happened and I I don’t think you can overstate this enough. The idea that this should not have happened not at the RDER Cup, not at a major sporting event, just in society in general. That’s no way to treat another human being. Certainly Roy Maroy endured the worst of it. His wife endured enough as well. So that’s the starting point. There is no apology apologizing for the fans in New York. I I think what I go back to when we sort of left New York and Monday morning I reached out to Ted Bishop who was the president of the PG of America in 2013 when they decided to take not just the Ryder Cup but obviously the PGA Championship in 2019 to Beth Paige Black and they knew what was going to happen. They decided to go to Beth Paige Black because of the crowds, because of the atmosphere. This didn’t come out of left field. This was not a secret. We all knew this was coming from the day it was announced on 2013 until Sunday afternoon when it sort of sunk in. The idea that this is sort of mainstream sports. And I guess the question going forward and Derek sort of touched on it a little bit. They PG of America has two more championships scheduled to be played at Beth Page, the KPMG Women’s PGA and the PGA Championship in 2033. And I asked them point blank, do you intend to to still go there? Is there any thought maybe of not going back? And it’s clearly it’s not. And it’s always going to be a trade-off with this specific venue because if you want to have the highest profile RDER Cup you possibly can in the United States, I’m not quite sure you could find another venue between the crowds, between the location, between uh in proximity to New York City. Everything that goes into it makes it the perfect venue. And it also makes it the imperfect venue. So the question now is are we okay with what happened over the last three days of the RDER Cup or is it time to sort of reassess or is this just the status quo now that we’re going to move forward with this sort of rockus rowdy atmosphere? Yeah, you kind of know what you’re getting with Beth Paige, right? Like Sergio got heckled to death in in 2002. Uh who knows what would have happened with Luke Luke if with Lucas Glover if it wasn’t such a deluge of rain having the Monday finish at the US Open in 2009. Remember Brooks Kepka, a runaway winner at the PGA in 2019. But he even he said when he was walking down the hill at 2019, fans were literally screaming in his face like you’re choking as Dustin Johnson among others was making a charge of him. So it come sort of comes with the territory. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, but the PGA willfully knew that this was the case and they still opted to go to that venue. It’s pretty clear listening to Derek Sprag though, Rex, like he feels badly um about what happened. It was a it was a terrible experience for the European Rder Cup team. It was a terrible experience for those who were on site who wanted to watch and appreciate great golf. Like, I would have been mortified if I brought my six-year-old to that venue just wanting to watch the 24 best players in the world and all of a sudden he was being inundated uh by vulgar, crude, disrespectful chance. Like, that is no example um that you should be setting. Particularly the first T announcer, the the comedian who was brought in by the PGA. Like, that’s just absolutely insane to start a chant of fu Rory to kick off the day. It was a terrible experience. I had a bunch of friends who went. Terrible experience for many spectators with the viewing options. They couldn’t really see anything. That’s not atypical for a Ryder Cup, but I think it was exacerbated at a golf course like Beth Paige Black, which was spread out over such a large property. So many uphill greens. There was long lines. There was traffic. It was a little bit of a mess logistically as well. I think all of that goes to say, and again, it was a 13-minute conversation with with Derek Spra, and you guys covered a lot of ground. It does make you wonder if the RDER Cup has gotten so big, so powerful, and so important that it’s essentially outstretched the capabilities of the PJ of America, who, keep in mind, their sole mission is not to put on a major championship or a Ryder Cup every four years at home. Their primary mission, Rex, is to look after the 31,000 PJ professionals around the world who are doing yman’s work and really trying to improve the game at a grassroots level. There was a viral clip, not from Derek Bragg, but of the president, Don Ray, who said that he somehow had not heard the abuse lobbied at Roy Moy, and he said that quote, “Golf uh is the engine of good.” It just it just makes it sound so out of touch with with reality and what’s actually happening on the ground. When you sort of fast forward to what could potentially, you know, how could you improve this situation? Quite frankly, the PJ tour has billions of investment dollars to spend and you wonder if they’d want to make a play for these RDER Cups at home, maybe for the PGA Championship as well, even in like a revenue sharing sort of agreement, just seizing operational control of the Ryder Cup. They know how to run events. They run events almost every single week of the calendar year. Big events as well as it relates to the President’s Cup and the Players Championship. Let them cook. Let them do the right thing because it seems like the Ruter Cup might have gotten a little bit too big for the PGA. And to be fair, and Derek Sprag addressed the logistic issues as well. If you take the crowd out of it, you just look at the logistic issues that went into this Friday with the president on property. certain certainly complicated things, but again, you kind of knew what you were getting. You knew this was going to be a Ryder Cup unlike anything we’ve ever seen in the past. And you can work your way around there. I see where you’re going with this. I’m not quite sure if the PG of America or even I’ll I’ll take it a step further and this might be blasphemy. Even if Augusta National was running that event, and we can all agree Augusta National pulls off the best event of the year more times than not, I’m not quite sure they could have pulled that one off seamlessly. I mean, the crowd was going to be what it was going to be. So, I apologize for the cliche. It was always going to be gross. Could you have made the atmosphere a little bit better? Could you have made the logistics a little bit better? Absolutely. But it goes back to, and again, I’ll give you an anecdote that Ted Bishop going back to 2013 told me that the day after they made the announcement that the 2019 PGA in this Ryder Cup was going to Beth Page. Ju just so happens that the PG of America closed its media rights deal with NBC Sports, which we all know we’re we’re a part of right now. And it was a multiple factor increase over what they had. The way it was explained to me by Ted Bishop is it was a it was a deal that they did not anticipate they could pull off. It was beyond their wildest dreams. And he said it was solely based on the idea that NBC realized that having two major championships in the New York area at Beth Page were going to be off the charts. that this is the kind of content that you can only get out of sports. It’s must mustwatch TV. You can’t just put this on pause and circle back around to it anymore. So, if you want to maximize what the PG of America does for its members, and you’re right, it’s a member organization trying to help all 30,000 members, you need to make sure you maximize what you get out of just not the Ryder Cup, but the PGA Championship as well. You may not have liked it, and certainly I did not like it. You did not like it. Rory must have not like liked any of it. But that’s how the PGA can maximize whatever it is they get out of the RDER Cup. It is a business. I know sometimes we want to stick our head in the sand and ignore that fact, but the fact of the matter is it made a lot of money. $700 general mission tickets, huge media rights deals. We saw it last week firsthand. Operationally, yeah, there’s certainly stuff that can be cleaned up. I’m sure Derek Sprag and the rest of his lieutenants will have that front of mind as they go through the debrief of what happened at the 2025 RDER Cup. sort of tangentially related, Rex, to the crowd that we didn’t get into on the Sunday show, but it sort of percolated with other viral clips that have come out that a lot of folks, including uh 20 uh excuse me, 2008 US Rder Cup captain Paul Azinger claimed that Rory Moy was being hypocritical because you and I were both in that press conference. talked afterward about how golf should be held to a higher standard, that there’s no room uh in this space for the vulgarity uh and just the level of dissension that we saw. But you contrast that in in Roy’s comments with clips of him yelling f you to the crowd to flipping off the crowd. How do you square that with Roy Moy specifically? Is he hypocritical? Is he talking out both sides of his mouth? or is this more of a nuance situation? As I like to tell my kids, two things can be true on this front. That behavior from the New York crowds is unacceptable. Again, not at a sporting event, just in life in general. Like, just don’t treat other people like that. I don’t care what your motivation is. I don’t care where you are in life. However, yes, Rory embraced the antagonist role to a wild degree. The way not just he was dropping fbombs back at the crowd, but the way he was pounding his chest. It makes it fun. We have seen this time and time again from Roy Moy, especially in these settings where it’s so one-sided and you have these home team crowds that just want to lean into it. I’ll go back to the idea, and we did touch on this on Sunday night’s podcast. Tommy Fleetwood didn’t suffer that level of slings and arrows. I’m sure he heard his share of bad things said from the crowd, but it’s because Tommy Fleetwood does brilliant stuff on the golf course. May fist pump, but no, he’s not engaging with the crowd. I would say the same thing about Justin Rose. There are plenty of players on the European team that played brilliantly that didn’t do what Rory did. That’s not justifying what the crowd did. And I don’t know what the tipping point is here. How much abuse should one person take before they snap, before they start pushing back? We saw that firsthand with Shane Lowry. I’m not even quite sure he was taking the majority of the abuse. He was just tired of hearing what they were saying to Rory. I saw him having to be restrained by a New York State police officer to get an idea. So there is something to be said for how far can you push a person before they push back. And we saw that out of Rory. But yes, to be fair, if Rory’s going to stand up there and do what he did, then he has to take a modeicum of responsibility for this. Look, Rory has embraced that antagonistic role before. Like you think back to Hazeline in 2016 where, you know, he was bowing to the crowd, he’s waving to the crowd. There was a there was a playfulness to that and I think we we we saw that all week at Beth Paige Black among the other players whether it was a Bob McIntyre, a Justin Rose, a Tommy Fleetwood, a John Rom, just sort of like I hear you. You’re booing. You don’t like it, but I’m going to show you how good I am. And there’s just a little bit of a showmanship to that. And I think Rory uh thrived in that sort of atmosphere in 2016 specifically where I think this is in where I think this is different. And I don’t want this to sound like I’m a Rory Stan here is that I think it’s one thing if he’s instigating it, right? And and and what Rory has done over the past two years, whether it was him pounding the table in Rome and guaranteeing victory, it’s it’s showing support for his guys and his team, showing confidence in himself and his team. That’s what you want and expect from a team’s emotional leader. what he was doing at Beth Paige Black, in my opinion, was simply reactionary where here’s a guy who’s getting dumped on and he was pushed to the to the breaking point. And look, I I sincerely felt for him. Like the vile stuff that was hurled at him, his wife, his family, you could stomach that in spurts. You can try and block that out for an hour or two, but over the course of 3 days and over the course of an entire week of practice, like there’s just only so much that one man can take and he occasionally snapped. And I’m sure he regrets some of the things he did. Singling out the the fans on 17, Fu, Fu, FU. Like, that was a pretty regrettable moment. But I still think overall the way that he played going 3-1 and one with so much attention on him, so much vitriol directed at him was still like the second most impressive thing that he’s done this year outside of weathering the storm that was the second night at Augusta National trying to complete the career grand slam and win the Masters. I’m not necessarily excusing his behavior, but I think his behavior was understandable. If he was going out of his way to single out fans and and shouting FU at them, then I think, yeah, that he’s instigating the behavior and is antagonizing a crowd that has a history of being hostile and being very vitriolic. Instead, this was basically him just being reactionary. And that’s why I think this is different. And that’s why I think overall I’m giving him a pass on the behavior. I and I think that’s absolutely fair. And at at no point did he initiate any of those exchanges. It was always, you’re right, just the barrage of things that were being said to him certainly is going to push a man to the breaking point and he got there. I think the only point that I would fall back on is when he gets to that breaking point, no one leans into it more than Rory. And I understand I I can imagine being in a similar situation where I’m not going to be restrained either, but that doesn’t help in a situation where it’s so explosive. Friday afternoon was just a volatile situation and there’s nothing he could have done to turn down the temperature in the room, but there were were things he could do to turn it up and he did those things. Yeah. I think there’s I think there’s like a limit to it, right? Like I think you can be fueled by it. It can make you hungry. It can it can increase your level of performance, but over the course of three days, that’s really hard to sustain and and and block that out and use that as fuel. And I think that’s why Roy MRO is the first to admit that he had nothing left on Sunday. He’d given all of himself on Friday and Saturday to either shield himself from the insults or basically ride the the wave of adrenaline and momentum in doing what he did over the first couple days. and he had a pillow fight with Scotty Shuffler and frankly had nothing left. Another topic, Rex, that you and I we alluded to on the Sunday, Bob, but we never we never actually got in. Who who could have imagined that having what 24 report cards were eventually going to take 20 to 25 minutes of the 52 minutes that we had allotted. One thing that we did want to get to which is still a topic of conversation even a couple days after is the envelope rule. The little used rule which it’s one of the unique cute little quirks of the Roder Cup. It was implemented the envelope rule was in 1979 but has not actually been used in the matches since 1993. why it was instituted this year and implemented was that Victor Havlin of course could not go for Sunday singles because of what was described in an MRI confirmed was a bulging disc in his neck. To counter that, the Americans then had to put a player in the envelope who in the case of injury or illness would not play and would then have a receive a half point. That player uh chosen by Captain Keegan Bradley was Harris English. And so Victor Havin got half a point for not playing. And Harris English got half a point for the Americans for not playing. A lot of fans Rex are saying this is stupid. This is outdated. This is no way to crown a potential winner of what is a significant event in the world of golf. What do you think? We I always use my son, my middle son, he’s a senior in college. Uh, we’re going to go with um Trevor right now because he has long hair like your hero Trevor Lawrence does. And as a litmus test, when I got home on Monday, the first thing he asked me is exactly what that meant. And when I told him envelope rule, he looked at me, I might the words coming out of my mouth might have well been, they put Harris English in the elevator to the moon. like that that would have been the equivalent of whatever it is he was trying to wrap his mind around because he also to to be fair he also didn’t know which which countries were part of team Europe yes wildly disappointing but sepra is playing for Australia last week that was news to me but Australia so close whatever he was so close beyond that I will say he has no idea what an envelope is because he never has to send a letter in this day and age we don’t send letters so that’s where the first stumbling block is I walked away from that Sunday press conference with both teams the most disappointed because Captain Keegan Bradley was asked about the envelope rule and he was very stridened. Yes, I do not like this at all. Do you have a fix? I’ve got some ideas. Would you share them? No. I want to hear what could possibly fix this because you and I have batted this around now for a couple days. There are a couple of scenarios. The Sooulheim Cup just gives a full point to the team that doesn’t have the player that can’t play. So then essentially the player who the team that has the injured player loses a whole point. I’m not quite sure how comfortable I would have been with that on Sunday night at Beth Paige because Victor Havlin can’t play now the United States gets a full point. I I don’t know if that’s the fairest way to do it. Someone said maybe you have some sort of alternate and there’s a couple of different scenarios. Maybe the highest ranked player on both teams that that didn’t get picked sort of just stands by. That to me seems silly though. What what was Brian Harmon going to spend all week driving around in a golf cart just waiting for his opportunity on Sunday afternoon? So, I don’t know if there’s a good fix. I will go back to the idea that everyone who seems to be upset about this, by and large, the vast majority of those people didn’t have a clue what this was to begin with. And those of us in the game that have been around this and and sort of understand exactly what it meant to go inside the envelope, I I don’t I didn’t see where the problem was. If I’m being quite framed, this is the rule. I’ll fall back on what Luke Donald said. We we went by the rule and that that’s the way it turns out. Now, you can argue that yes, it was a bit of a gut punch for the American side to start the day with the Europeans only needing two points instead of two and a half points. Doesn’t sound like much, but it certainly feels like, you know, a mountain if you’re on the wrong side of that. I just don’t know what the possible fix could be. Yeah. Look, it it did sound a little bit like sour grapes from Keegan Bradley on Sunday night. Like, this is part of a captain’s agreement and he signed off on it. He agreed with it. He probably thought just as every captain since 1993 has has thought that like, okay, I understand the rule, but it’s highly highly unlikely that this is going to need to be implemented. And I do think it’s sort of a a fun little quirk, you know, like it’s a it’s an homage to a different era of the RDER Cup back in the late ‘7s, you know, one filled with sportsmanship and honor and integrity. And it’s it’s really just an exhibition. And the general thought back in 1979 was that you don’t want a player to risk further injury by having to subject himself to potentially 18 more holes if he’s not physically fit enough to do so. And so in an exhibition, sure, just give each team a half a point. Obviously, the RDER Cup has evolved into something else, but I’m not sure that you should necessarily abandon that. Where I think a lot of fans lie is that it’s a little bit suspicious, right? Like the European team was suspicious of what happened with Steve Pate in 1991. A lot of folks uh even on the US team, Justin Thomas’ reaction was captured on video of Victor Havlin not being able to play in Sunday singles, knowing again that a half point on the European side puts them much closer to their goal of 14 points. Had Victor Havlin tried to go out with an injury, he likely would have been unable to compete and all of a sudden the Europeans, if given the choice, say, “Do you want to have the potential of zero points or when you’re two and a half points from retaining the cup? Do you want to get just a half point?” And so I understand the level of suspicion even if I think in this case it wasn’t warranted. Like Victor Havlin clearly had an injury. Victor Hofflin could not play in Saturday fourballs and he had to get an MRI and uh according to his doctor he could not move his neck left to right before teeing off like yeah he is legitimately injured and has bothered him for the past couple of months. I would be fine as we look to sort of like potential fixes. I would be fine with the Soulheim Cup rules you mentioned it’s the exact same during team play where if it happens you know um during forsomes you have to forfeit. If it happens during four balls, that player can go solo. If it happens before the match, then someone who is not already playing can be subbed in as we saw with Terrell Hatton and Victor Hoff in that Saturday afternoon fourball session. In singles, as you mentioned, the full point does go to the other team. But even that has happened on a very, very rare occurrence. 2011 was the last time that happened. It was actually our our colleague at golf channel Karen Stuples who took advantage of Christy Kerr’s WD Europe actually went on to win uh that week by two points. What I do think is untenable is the idea of the substitute because we just talked about suspicion and whether you know there’s a there’s a valid reason why both teams should be getting a half a point. There’s a lot of suspicion if all of a sudden you have the option to use a substitute. What if, I don’t know, a Harris English or a Kawa Morawa are not playing well at the RDER Cup? Could all of a sudden they feain an illness? Could all of a sudden they feain an injury and you bring in All right, let’s let’s let’s bring in the right-hander for Saturday afternoon fourballs and and sort of steady the ship. All of a sudden, I think that level of suspicion rises again. And so, I’m fine with keeping it. I’d also be fine with the Soulheim Cup rules as it relates to Sunday singles, but I I honestly don’t I don’t feel strongly either way. I just think the substitute rule, the 13th man, like is is absolutely not an option. That’s a non-starter. Yeah, it it just didn’t feel good. Although, I’ll go back to my previous argument when it comes to the crowds and things getting out of control at the RDER Cup. If you want to inch closer and closer to something closer to a mainstream sport, which is what really the PG of America wants. It’s what the USGA wants. It’s what the PGA Tour wants. And no other event can probably do it like the Rder Cup can. We saw it last week. Even with a blowout, you saw the level of interest in in the New York era. I mean, it was sold out. It was a mad house every single day. It’s not as though even a blowout was going to soften what this meant to be. I’ll go back to the idea that if you want a mainstream sports, it’s sometimes there’s gamesmanship involved. So yeah, maybe if a Harris English is not playing great in your in this universe, in this scenario that you’re throwing out there, they do it in every other sport. We see offensive linemen fall down all the time, faking injuries to stop the clock or whatever the case may be. I I don’t know that I would be entirely against that if we want to move in in that direction. But you’re right. I kind of look at what we’ve had now for a few decades and realize that it’s clearly never been taken advantage of that no one has ever sat around and screamed about it like we see we like we seem to do be doing it now and you’re only doing it because you didn’t know about it to begin with right and like Victor Havlin was was devastated like I think we’re we’re overlooking that anyone who was suspicious of what happened like Luke Donald said that Victor Havlin was nearly in tears when he decided that he couldn’t go Victor Havlin I was walking out there with a couple groups with him. Like the dude looked absolutely devastated that he was not able to compete, not able to put on the team uniform and not able to try to win win a full point for his team as they were trying to win the RDER Cup. Like I think everyone legitimately feels bad. I don’t think I mean these are these are huge ego some of the best players in the world. Like the thought of of faking an injury or an illness so you don’t play in Sunday singles is is just asinine to me. And again, this has rarely been used. First time since 1993. I don’t know that we necessarily need to overhaul the rules because of what has been a statistical anomaly. I kind of like the the quirk of having a a half point, but I also wouldn’t be fully opposed to surrendering the full point either if if that’s what the captains feel is the is the best course of action. But again, I don’t know, maybe it’s just a little bit of sentimentality. I kind of like having the half point. Good hot take. I don’t know. Screaming in. I don’t know. I’m certainly straddling the fence on that one. I don’t feel strongly either way. I do think this substitute though is an absolutely horrible, horrible idea. All right, spinning it ahead to 2027, Adair Manor in Ireland. In the future captaincy discussion, Luke Donald did not necessarily shoot down the idea that he would not represent team Europe as the captain for the third consecutive Rder Cup. What do you think the chances are, Rex, that we see Luke Donald run it back again? And if not him, who you think makes the most sense? I I think it’s probably a statistical probability now that he’s going to be the captain next time around, he probably needs, if you look at what happened after Rome, they waited until January, the European tour, to approach Luke to try to get him to convince him that give it another shot. They’ll probably do the same thing. and give him a couple months to sort of decompress and to think about what happened. But I don’t know that they have a better option and it just kind of depends on if he has it in him to go another two years. We have seen how this has taken it out of him like now that we know what a brilliant captain he is. He’s a brilliant captain because he leaves nothing to chance and that’s not easy. That’s a consuming job. And now granted he his day job is playing golf and he doesn’t seem to be interested in that at the moment. But it is still a consuming job. If he wants it, the job’s going to be his. If not, I think it opens up a possibility for a lot of interesting conversations when it comes to exactly what the DP World Tour wants to do because the DP World Tour much more so than the PGA Tour has at least cracked the door open for the Europeans who went to live golf to come back. We certainly saw John Rom and Hatman on the team. They were embraced. They produced. They’re a huge part of that team going forward. Could you imagine a similar scenario with some of the players who would have been in line to be captains had they not gone to live golf? I’m talking about Ian Palter and Sergio Garcia and Lee Westwood and even Graham McDow given how it’s going to be in Ireland. I don’t think that’s out of the realm of possibility if Luke Donald decides not to go. Isn’t the arbitration panel though set to weigh in on the Terrell Hatton and the John Rom uh rulings which have already if we’re using precedent from a couple years ago like they’re very likely to uphold those sanctions by the DP World Tour. Then it feels like we’re we’re back at square one all of a sudden they’re going to need to rewrite some regulations. All those are the signs that it’s not as draconian as it is on the PGA tour. On the PGA tour it’s it’s a non-starter. there is no pathway back other than I I guess Hudson Swafford would be the example right now. So essentially Hudson Swaffford wanted to come back to the PGA Tour after he was re relegated off of Liv Goff and it was essentially a two-year suspension and so that at least sets some sort of precedent. If you were to have a player Dustin Johnson being the primary example here had Dustin Johnson not gone to live golf, you would imagine he’d be a captain on the US side eventually. But if he’s going to do it, it’s probably a two-year process. Whereas on the European side, I think it’s much cleaner. Selfishly, I mean, I’d love to see Grant McDall as the captain in in 2027. I don’t know if the landscape of golf has shifted enough over the year to make that a a tenable situation. I’m with you that that Luke Donald does feel like a good bridge to the next generation. The team itself would already be a massive favorite competing at home. like the the days the days of the European underdogs are are are long gone, particularly when they’re playing on home soil. I think the only counter to that though and and why Luke Donald may not want to do it is what else does he have to prove, does he really want to sacrifice two more years of his life? And what happens if all of a sudden his team does not look as strong? is all of a sudden his his legacy as perhaps the greatest RDER Cup captain of all time. Is that somehow tainted if the Americans for the first time since 1993 come over and defeat the Europeans? Like I don’t think there’s necessarily much for him to improve or prove in that respect. And so in the absence of Luke Donald again I think the betting market has Luke Donald as a prohibitive favorite at this point. Justin Rose makes some sense. Franchesco Molinari makes some sense. Alex Norn who is a late addition as a vice captain the European side makes some sense as well. I think you can nitpick with all of those potential suggestions which is why I still think Luke Donald should run it back. But those three players uh are sort of top of mind for me that if if not Luke who those three guys make sense and those are all valid points when it comes to Luke Donald because you’re right. What does he have to prove? You’ve already won one home and away. It should not get any better than that. Do you want to dedicate another two years of your life being consumed by this thing? All of those things make sense to me. But there has there been anything that Luke Donald has done over the last four years that lead you to believe that this is a selfish pursuit on any level? And I’ll go back no and I’ll go back to Sunday’s press conference when he was pressed for what exactly makes you a good captain. He was really quick to dismiss it to the point that even Roy Maroy had to maybe cough cough off a little bit and be like, “Come on now. Now you’re you’re downplaying this too much. He is a brilliant captain.” And I think it’s because there has been no unselfishness whatsoever. Justin Rose um would be 47 years old when the Rder Cup rolls around uh in 2027. Quite frankly, he’d have to make that decision pretty soon. The European side typically announces their next captain, so it will be for 2027 uh in January or February at the latest. Justin Rose like literally just went two and one in in the RDER Cup. He just won a Fetus Cup playoff event. He’s going to have full status on the PJ tour in 2027. I don’t think Jay Rose is quite ready quite yet, but I do think as you look to Hazeline 2029, like it’s hard to imagine another player at that point who would be more in line for a spot uh than Justin Rose. Well, in my guess, the DP World Tour watched really carefully what happened with Keegan Bradley this cycle about the idea is to have younger and younger captains because you can connect with your team. You’re out there on a regular basis with them. The danger of that is what we saw with Keegan. you end up with a captain who faces an impossible decision. Should I play? Should I captain? Should I try to do both? So, I’m sure they want to try to avoid that as well. Yeah. And I mean, like, credit to Justin Rose. He’s 45 years old, still doing it at a very high level. Would not surprise me at all if he sustains that level of form and is sort of a a late captain’s pick for that 2027 squad. How about on the American side, Rex? They they obviously went uh out of left field with the Keegan Bradley selection, picking him as the captain despite never having a conversation with Keegan Bradley about whether he wanted to do the captaincy. So, who do you think is the line for 2027? And is it Keegan Bradley? There was an interesting part of the interview we just ran with Derek Sprag towards the end of it where I’m sort of asking specifically and the interview was clearly just focused entirely on crowd behavior and and how you keep it from happening again. and he followed with what felt like a question more about the state of the US team sort of talking about being on that radicup committee that was born from the task force from the disaster that was Tom Watson and the idea of trying to look ahead trying to come up with a better way of doing this you’re absolutely right Keegan Bradley was a left field pick and I think right now we’re going to spend probably the better part of the next two years trying to find ways to justify that I don’t know if you possibly can I will go back to our conversation I think it was yesterday when I called you about something else. But I was really quick to start the conversation with, “Buddy, you see who the uh betting favorite is for the American captain.” And I st and you stumbled a little bit and said, “Obviously Tiger, and Tiger is the obvious choice here, but no, the betting favorite right now is Brandt Snedeker, which is interesting to me.” So it’s Tiger Woods decision. It’s his job if he wants it. So was this job. This time around was Tiger Woods. He kind of kind of drugg his feet a little bit. So we ended up with Keegan Bradley. I would lean towards Tiger taking it next time around for a couple of different reasons. He didn’t do it this time because he is waist deep, shoulder deep, maybe neck deep in whatever’s going on in the business of the PGA Tour. Between the ongoing negotiations with the public investment fund and live golf, between what Brian Rolap, the new CEO, wants to do with the PGA Tour. We all know Tiger Woods is obsessive when it comes to things that he wants to focus on. He is hyperfocused. And in that particular moment in time, he felt like he could not dedicate the time needed to both the PGA tour and being a captain. My guess is by the time they approach him December, January to do it again, it will probably be a different scenario that the tour is in a different position. I think at least in the short term, we’ve all moved on from the idea that there’s going to be a deal with the public investment fund and Brian Rolap seems to have the reigns right now. He seems to be steering the ship in the direction that he wants it. So now if Tiger Woods has some disposable time and has the interest, I think he will take the job for that reason and also the billionaire behind getting the Ryder Cup to Adair Manor in Ireland is JP Mcmanis and Tiger Woods is very close with JP. So I think all of those things factor into it. If not, I think Snedker is probably the best plan B because you will also have the opportunity to see how he handles this next cycle as the US President’s Cup captain. Look, I hate comparing these two things. They are two vastly different events, but it gives you an idea of his leadership style. So, Tiger won and Brandt a distant two. Yeah. I mean, Bran Sedker 2026 President’s Cup captain. Does he have the dual roles and do it again for two entirely different organizations, for two entirely different competitions, for two entirely different formats, sets of rules, etc., etc. Maybe some potential better cooperation, uh, better cohesion between those two events would be in the offing, particularly if the conspiracy theory that I they trotted out about 20 minutes ago, uh, plays out. A couple other names, Rex, that I would throw out like Stewart Sink. I know Tiger Woods was the favorite um, to land the job. He he ended up turning it down. It seemed like it could potentially go to Steuart Sink before they went again out of left field. Maybe he gets another run. He was sort of the task forcian um you know playbook call where he was the vice captain then you he saw how it went then you elevate him to a captaincy makes a lot of sense in that respect what doesn’t seem like a good idea is to go really random again that did not work for Tom Watson it clearly didn’t work for Keegan Bradley so a couple other players like a a Justin Leonard I think makes a lot of sense who’s the vice captain captain last year for the 2024 President’s Cup team, a Router Cup hero on the European, excuse me, on the on the US side. I have seen some ideas, Rex, uh even even when that was trumpeted by Phil Mickelson who who to be clear said his involvement with with Team USA is over. He’s happy doing what he’s doing and just sitting on the sidelines and rooting for the Americans. I’ve seen some ideas that they should go like the whole Team USA route. bring in, you know, motivational speakers, leaders of men, a a Coach K type who was so heralded for his work at Duke. Phil Mickelson actually trotted out the name of of Lou Holtz, uh, who Wikipedia tells me would be 90 years old when they play the 2027 Ryder Cup at a Dare Manner. To me, I don’t understand this line of thinking at all that you need to go outside the golf space and find like a a a team sport coach. How can American golfers be so devoid of leadership skills that you have to go completely outside the sport and completely outside the realms of of what is an individual pursuit in golf? Just find someone like the Europeans do. over and over and over again. Even in the ones that that don’t work out, like they at least come from the same mold. They come from the same style. They come from the same playbook. Those people are organized. They’re professional. They’re data-minded. They’re good communicators. How can no American golfer have that set of skills? That’s that’s mind-blowing to me. I was texting with a colleague of ours. I’ll save you from calling him out on this one. To that point, I think we get lost sometimes in the aftermath of these Ryder Cups and become just ultimate prisoners of the moment because it’s important to point out that yes, it seems like every European Rder Cup captain is just a genius on Mensa level. However, Nick Nick F was an awful captain. I I think you can go down the list and pick out a couple more, but just to name Nick Fo, there’s also something to be said for the idea that Luke Donald is a brilliant tactician. Everything he does seems to work out. I think history will show that at least as of now he faced probably two of the weaker captains in the US lineup and Zack Johnson and this time Keegan Bradley. And look, I’m not here to do the postmortem on Keegan Bradley yet. I think there’s still plenty of that story to be told and to be learned. However, I think at first blush you can make the argument that yeah, he he was not the best. And you look at some of the decisions that Zack Johnson made in Rome that we have since broken down. Clearly not the best. I don’t want to take anything away from Luke Donald, but the idea that we don’t have our version of our version, I’ll pay the fine. That the United States doesn’t have their version. Apparently, we don’t have to do that anymore because we have a booth that fully embraces the idea of patriotism. Um, the idea that we don’t have a Luke Donald is ridiculous to me, but the US hasn’t found him yet. Oh, they certainly haven’t found him. Why I trumpeted the idea on the Sunday podcast of giving Tiger essentially a four to sixyear term as the head of of team. You sure he’s going to be that good of a captain? A that good of a Ryder Cup captain. We know he was a good President’s Cup captain. That’s kind of where I wanted the conversation to go because we don’t even really have proof that he would be good at the job, right? Like you look at his playing record in the RDER Cup, he was 13, 21, and three. Uh he has never historically played well with others. Uh keep in mind in his one stint as captain already when he was the playing captain in 2019 at the President’s Cup, they nearly lost that one. That would have been just their second defeat ever in the President’s Cup would have been a humiliating defeat for Tiger who was the playing captain that week. Instead, uh he played phenomenally well and led an inspired comeback in Sunday singles. But I do think uh for 2027, three things are working in Tiger’s favor. One, as you pointed out, he now has the time. He’s no longer a full-time player. He’s going to be over the age of 50. He’s not going to need to be devoting himself, you would think, to the politics and the bureaucracy of the PGA tour as he apparently was doing last year when the announcement was made. Number two, he’d be able to give it his all. Tiger Woods does not want to be viewed as a failure. He typ he he in if anything he wants to be viewed as a hero and as a savior. He is still beloved by all the tiger babies who constitute these US teams. He would have the respect of them. He would be able to dictate sort of directions and what he wants them to do. I think that was one of the one of the issues with with Keegan Bradley, right? Like he he he made a poor choice in having K Morawa and Harris English to begin with. So he sent them out. It was a disaster. I think Keegan Bradley, if he was looking inward, would have I think he would admit that he had a hard time telling Kyle Morawa and Harris English, who are peers of his on the PJ tour, you guys are not playing well enough, you need to sit out. That is a very uncomfortable conversation to have peer-to-peer, playerto player on the PJ tour. Tiger Woods because he’s now removed from the everyday go comingings and goings of the PJ tour I don’t think would have that problem and I think there would be a a a level of of respect that he would command that potentially a player like a Keegan Bradley did not. And three, Tiger Woods fancies himself as a top tier stratician, excuse me, a strategist and a statician who would turn over every stone. Did you just did Did you just Yes, I just combined two words. Yes. Tiger Woods is a top tier strategist who would turn over every stone because if you’re looking at the Americans like they really need to look at their data team because either Keegan Bradley was willfully ignoring Scouts Inc. or he was given really horrible information and I tend to think that it was the latter. In any case, they got lapped by Eduardo Molinari’s team roughly 10 and eight in that regard. And so Tiger Woods potentially overhauling that as well. So I think for those three reasons, it makes a lot of sense. Even if again to your point, we don’t have any tangible proof that he would actually be good at this gig, but I you think he would like I’m not sitting here saying that no, I don’t think he’s going to be a brilliant captain because I do look at what he did in Australia and you’re right, it was close. However, I remember going into those matches thinking to myself that if the international team is ever going to have a chance, it’s got to be here. It was as close to a home field as that international team is going to get. It seemed like the captains were pulling all the right strings. It seemed like their team was in form. So, I think Tiger being a playing captain proved that he at least has the capacity to to wrap his mind around the team concept. Is he going to be Luke Donald? We’re going to have to find that one out. Well, we did it, Rex. We did 52 minutes for the Sunday recap podcast, but an hourong debrief on the entire Rder Cup. Fallout is the gift that keeps on giving. That’s why we pour so much of ourselves into covering it all year long because it is so interesting. There is so much strategy and there is so much secondguing which always makes for a lot of fun in an individual sport like golf. All right, that is going to do it for this edition of the Golf Show podcast with Rex and Lab. You guys know the drill. mupports.com/golf akaolfch channel.com which is set to undergo a new launch soon. In the meantime, thanks for listening. Thanks for the support. We’ll talk to you guys next week.