What Makes a Good Match-Play Golf Course? | Designing Golf

What Makes a Good Match-Play Golf Course? | Designing Golf

The writer cup at Beth Page Black is approaching, so I thought it would be a good time to talk about the intersection between match play and golf course design. This is a topic I’ve been thinking about for a while. What makes a golf course well suited to match play as opposed to stroke play? How do you go about designing a matchplay specific golf course? Does it require something different from an architect than designing a course that will primarily host stroke play rounds? In this episode, I’ll dig into those issues with two architects. First, Andy Staples, who has actually designed a golf course intended for match play. Then, Brian Schneider, who’s a little skeptical of some of these ideas. Finally, I’ll wrap up with some of my own thoughts on Beth Page Black and its suitability for the matchplay format. I’m Garrett Morrison and this is Designing Golf. [Music] Andy Staples, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for being here. Hey Garrett, great to be here. Thanks for having me. So, we’re talking today about whether there are certain things that make a golf course well suited or poorly suited to match play as opposed to stroke play. And you’re a good person to tackle this topic with because you’ve actually designed a golf course expressly intended for match play. It’s part of the PGA National Resort in Florida and it’s called, appropriately enough, the match. So before getting into kind of the the philosophical ideas of what makes a good match play course and so on, why don’t you just tell me a bit about the specifics of this project and and how you thought through it? So what was the concept of of the match and where did it come from? How did you come up with the idea? So PJ National, as many might know, uh hosts a PJ tour event on the Champ course. They had four other courses. Now they have five courses. And so uh I was hired to look at what was called the squire course at that time. It’s 18hole non- returnturning nine. A non-returning 18 which meant means you would go out and come back. There’s no real connection to the clubhouse. A little bit disconnected from the clubhouse which kind of gave it a little bit of charm. It was kind of out at the edge of the Everglades. 1981 George and Tom Fosio. And so it was tired and and they were looking for the owners at at the time, Brookfield Properties were looking for an option for how to kind of diversify the user group. They had the Champ course which is known as being very difficult. They’ve got a Fazio and Arnold the Palmer. And so I started looking around of what was happening in our industry with the resort courses and such. seemed like a natural fit to try to play a course that targeted the maybe not so serious golfer, maybe the more fun golfer, the golfer that maybe was coming in to play the the the champ course and maybe wanted to hang out the afternoon, play with their buddies, so forth. And so, uh, what people maybe not don’t know, 1983, uh, BJ National Golf Club hosted the Ryder Cup. And so we kind of had this kind of natural tie-ins like wait a minute the history of this place is actually kind of cool. And so uh when we started to think about what we could do to to reimagine the Squire which was kind of a tired old 6,500 yard golf course nothing totally special surrounded by homes and things like that typical for Florida golf course. We took the first uh and 18th hole non- returnturning uh 18 109 made a par three course and then we were left with essentially 16 holes for the rest of uh you know whatever we wanted to do and and and at that time of course we needed to make sure it was 18 holes. And so the the remaining 16 holes became our focus on how do we actually create something here that people might want to make an effort to come play. certainly want to make it as casual and and fun and engaging knowing that people may have just gotten off to playing the champ course the day before or even that that morning. And so we were able to take one course, the square course, and break it up into two courses. So a par three, nine-hole par three course that’s now called the staple and then an 18hole uh uh maybe about a 5850 yard golf course uh short by many standards in Florida that we called the match. So, uh, that’s that it was kind of the tie-in. We were really just trying to find something that was really reaching out across, uh, the golf sector and to try to bring people here that that don’t necessarily need the, uh, you know, go ahead and play the champ course if you want the hard difficult stuff. But here, let’s come have some fun over in this course. First of all, the par three course, the staple that’s named after you. Well, I kind of I I I kind of joke it is called the staple. They wanted it to be the staple of the resort. I’m like, “Well, my name is Staples with an S at the end.” Uh, so so it’s just a coincidence. No, I mean, it was it was a play on words. The the Sugarloaf guys helped us with that, and they’re geniuses, so they they they let that kind of fly. But yeah, nine-hole staple course. Yeah. You’re just like Jack Nicholas naming every course the bear of of of some sort or another. Yeah. Um, huge ego. That’s right. Exactly. All right. Well, I had to give you a hard time about that, but it it both the courses obviously look really cool. I haven’t been to them. I I’m very curious about the match course and you know the the idea of of building a course specifically for match play and and how that was different from how you might have approached the stroke play courses that you’ve designed. So, did you have a different approach? Was there something essentially different from the ground up about how you how you designed this course? I would say yes, absolutely. And I think you know obviously we live in a country that’s you know fairly focused on stroke play and every uh you know every time the RDER Cup or the President’s Cup or something come back there’s some match play discussion but for the most part it’s uh it’s stroke play. But I I’ve always felt that the game of golf, the things that we try to try to promote in our game, you know, let’s let’s not have to make every golf course 7,000 yards. You know, does par really matter? I we talk a lot about is great golf course some great golf courses that are 70 par 70 or less. And so by nature of breaking the squire course up into two courses, we we were left with a finite piece of land. And I felt there needed to be something here creatively that gave us the ability to say, “All right, if I was going to squeeze out at that point, we’re trying to get over 6,000 yards, but if we’re going to squeeze out as many yards as possible, how do we get people here to come play golf? And why do we make it some, you know, not your typical executive style golf course as many people might call something less than a certain yardage?” And so, yeah, it certainly gave me the ability, I think, when par doesn’t matter, when length doesn’t matter, you focus on halfpar holes, you you focus on dramatic uh T-shots, you focus on on perhaps a a very uh you know, execute a shot to get onto a putting surface. The putting surface doesn’t have to be fair. The the the word fair doesn’t come into play very often on match play. It’s they’re bad breaks, right? they’re not they’re it’s not fair or or not. It’s a bad fact fact that you had a bad break. So, it really it it from my standpoint, it gave me the opportunity to think of things uh without par, without length and make an engaging golf course that really put a pressure on uh the golfers to hit golf shots. And by, you know, I at the end of the project, it was, you know, the Brookville properties were were very engaged and involved, but many of them weren’t really golfers. And so I got in the habit of saying, you know, my my five will beat your six. And that’s really the essence of a of a match play of a match and what I wanted to basically make out of the match at this at this at PJ National. Well, there are a couple of interesting things there. First of all, the origin story of this course kind of comes out of a constraint. You had 16 holes of an old course and you really didn’t have enough room to create a typical regulation golf course. So, what do you do with it? Well, one option is a is a matchplay golf course because it seems that golfers are more ready to accept an unconventional course if it is for match play and not for stroke play. So, why do you think that is? Well, I think there’s a certain novelty to it and there’s a lot of lot of folks down in Florida that might argue with that point. Uh there there’s a traditional uh uh customer base down there that you know, one of the other things that we don’t have is we don’t have traditional T- markers. We have a beginning and we have an end. So, we have kind of a minimum and a maximum. You know, the horse concept. And then we we to this date have still not rated and sloped the golf course. So when you play the match, you don’t you can’t record a score. So So that start that’s begun a whole another discussion, too. It’s like, well, why not? Let’s let’s let’s rate it. So and and I’ve resisted rating the course cuz it’s like in my mind, this isn’t a course that you want to go post a score. There’s there there are holes out there that are the length of a par4, but as you play them and if you get into a certain angle or a certain part of the fairway as you approach the greens, you know, there’s some there’s some shots there that that expect execution and so and accuracy. And I think to me when when you actually break down what match play is all about, it doesn’t matter about the enjoyment of the course. You want to beat your opponent. And so at the end of the day, I I wanted to put a diverse number of golf shots and place a premium on on approach into these greens that because I didn’t have length, I I I tried to defend it in different ways. We’ve done a couple of episodes recently on the concept of fairness, and you’ve used the F-word a couple of times in in describing what you did at this course, the match. And I I think it’s so interesting that once you’re separated from stroke play that fairness in golf course design doesn’t seem to play as big of a role or at least players don’t seem to care as much about fairness because our idea of fairness in golf is so often connected to the idea of par. And when you’re playing a match, the idea of par or the idea of your handicap as related to the the slope rating and and whatever other numbers are relevant there, those those notions kind of constrict our our um acceptance of different kinds of golf courses. So once you say it’s a matchplay course, then you’re kind of freed up, right? Yeah. Yeah. You can make unfair you can create unfair features. You don’t have to constantly be, you know, hiding from fairness. That’s right. That is exactly right. And I will tell you that that was that was one of the more freeing parts of this. Now granted, I think we took some risks on the on the side slopes of the greens and the slopes of the greens. We since we didn’t have a lot of length, we knew a lot of people players would play that core of course that could hit the ball, you know, a pretty good length. But if you were an average or even below average and and played all the way back on the at the match, you still had a legitimate golf course. I mean, 5,800 yards for a lot of players is still a pretty good golf course. There’s a lot of par fives out there if you want to start start talking fives. But, you know, when you think about match play, anybody who’s who’s been brought up in the game that played any type of competition, you know, at least that’s the way I was brought in, you know, we still had uh match play where I grew up and and that was part of the the the golf the state golf association. There’s an emotion around winning a hole. There’s an emotion about being two up. There’s an emotion and a and a and a memory of having that final putt on the last hole for for whatever number to win. And very rarely do you ever remember what you shot that day. You you end up you end up making sure that you beat your your partner or your your opponent. And so and I have uh buddies here. I’ve told this story a number of times. I have buddies that are all different types of golfers. Really good golfers to poor golfers. And we have a game when we go play. there’s there’s four of us or even six of us and we’ll start out the first six holes and play a scramble, you know, two on two on two and then the next hole the next six holes we’ll play an alternate shot and many of the guys that I play with have never ever played an alternate shot before. They didn’t know what the portions was and then the final six holes are six holes of of of of best or or or stroke play, but still straight up match. And so to me, I was thinking about that as I built the match. It’s like, okay, if I had, you know, six of us out here playing and we didn’t really care what we what we shot, how am I going to enjoy the shot? I could just remember. I can just think about the some of the greens. Like, I can see them saying, “Staples, what’d you do here? I’m I’m on the wrong side and here I am on the right side.” And so, I think to me, you know, you can call it whatever you will. I I think that that this was an excuse for me to get into a creative mode that I don’t know that I necessarily would have done on other courses. And I think that is what gives the match the charm that it has. Is there a specific feature at the match that you could tell us about that you might have hesitated to build at a conventional golf course that you would expect people to play stroke play at? Yeah, I think yeah, I think there’s a there’s I I had a coffin bunker that there’s one in the backside of the 12th hole of my my kind of Sahara template, if you will, where you can actually, you know, drive it up to the green. If you miss the green, you’re in this big entire hole like it’s I tried to cut it as low as I possibly could. It’s probably 12 ft low right next to the green and then you go up on top of the green and there’s a sliver of a bunker. And now granted that those are becoming more popular. Certainly Pete Dai made a living making making those types of bunkers, but I don’t know that I would ever had to sign off on on something that you actually had to kind of climb in and out of, which was really cool. I use railroad ties, you know, so the idea of of hitting something into a feature that, you know, and I safely angled them and tried to do my best that didn’t have to worry about any ricochets and things like that. But, you know, that you’re in a you’re in a a feature and you just have no shot at going sideways. So, I think those are things that that I think, you know, you play that golf hole next time, you’re like, I’m not hitting it over there or I’m going to make sure I I I select a club to make make sure I avoid it. So, of course, those are the things that I think were, you know, were so cool about the course. Yeah. If people make double bogeies or triple bogeies just because of one feature, then that doesn’t affect them the same way in a match as it would if they were tallying up their score. And so I think a big part of the freedom that a match play course concept offers is the ability to build features that that exact a real punishment. And what you get from that is not just punishment, not just the uh whatever the sadistic pleasure that a golf architect feels in punishing players, whatever that might be. It’s it makes the course exciting because avoiding the feature, playing around the feature, ending up in a hazard that is truly punitive creates excitement and tension. And that’s that’s something that can sometimes be missing from modern courses that we saw a lot at courses built in that golden age of the 1910s, 20s, and 30s. I think people would be shocked by how savage some of the hazards that the the great architects of that period would build. Yes, of course. And and and so I I’ I’d be remiss by saying I mean that the matchplay course isn’t about the savage features. you, you know, but you go to the Garden City Golf Club and see what Walter Travis was doing to make that golf course more difficult for the USM came through there, like he was toughening it up. You see those features like there’s no way you can get away with half those features he built. But it is about the flow and and the the the rhythm of the routing. So there there was a certain expectation of creativity and and pushing the limits on actual individual features. But you know and and we’re about ready to you know see match play again here in a week or so at Beth Page. You know I think what makes a truly a good match play is the flow of the routing, the flow of how holes come together and then certainly the closing of of the routing. So many matches don’t make it to the 18th hole. So you can really start to focus on 14, 15, 16, 17 and know that those are holes that maybe become a little more difficult. I love and I’ve only played Beth Page once, but I it’s a memorable course in my mind. It starts a little slow, maybe a little bit in front of you. You know, be wary of this match. Like if you’re if you’re not up in the match after the first couple of holes, then by the time you make the turn, then it’s a dog fight and it comes down to the finish, which is one of the reasons why I think Beth Paige is so such a good matchplay course. You know, I think the the the routing and the the way that holes are presented, which I I feel like we were a bit constrained. We were only we’re only available to to whatever land was available to us uh at at at the match. But I did think of things in terms of starting, you know, it’s right in front of you at the beginning, but then starting to kind of, you know, cinch it up or tighten it up and and I think as you get to the match, there’s a there’s a somewhat reachable par five if you want to put a par on it, but it’s it’s a very short hole that that if you don’t reach it close to the green end in two shots, you’re going to be disappointed. Uh the uh the the 16th hole is this little short maybe 290 yard kind of null hole with the with the green sitting up and it all falls around. So you can go for the green and it falls everywhere around the green or you just lay up short. 17 is very narrow. 18’s a a big huge long par three with a Britz kind of style green in in the middle of it. So to me, I think a match play course truly thinks in terms of how people are playing matches, how golfers are competing against each other, and know that, hey, if you start fast, get up high, get up quick, but then you got to hold on to the end. And I think you’re going to see that a lot at B. Yeah. And it’s it’s not always the uh, as you mentioned earlier, the 18th hole that is the conclusion of the round. So maybe there’s an extra pressure on a matchplay course to have something really cool on 15 or 16 or 17. And that’s why I think, by the way, Cypress Point is such a sensational matchplay course. As we saw at the Walker Cup, if you end on really any of those holes in that closing stretch, matches are obviously most likely to get to at least 15. There are relatively few matches that end before that. But if you end on any of those holes, 15, 16, 17, or even 18, I would argue it’s a pretty satisfying ending in in a way. All of them are unique holes and they offer something distinctive for a match that might have its concluding moment on it. Yeah, I was actually very surprised that so many matches made it to 18 and there was such a focus on the the the accuracy off the tea and that big overhanging Cypress from the left. I thought I thought that again, you know, people, you know, say what they want about the you the best 17th hole 17 hole course in the country, but that 18th hole gave gave a challenge that was very exacting off the tea and you saw a lot of a lot of play underneath a tree, around a tree, for whatever the you worth you whatever you want to say about the value of trees. It was still it didn’t matter about the the design of that golf ball. It was about getting the the ball in in the least amount of strokes. And you know, there was a lot of matches that were called there. So, I think to me that’s the essence. I’d say Cypress Point, the finish of Cypress is is by far the the quirkiness, the quirkiest and the example of what we tried to do at the match. Now, granted, a little different location, but it’s certainly a great example. I’m glad you brought it up. You know what it is with Cypress is that that 18th hole is kind of like McKenzie saying to the players in the match, okay, you couldn’t figure it out on 16 or 17. Let’s give you something completely different. Let’s see you guys finish your match on this hole. And and he creates this opportunity on that hole for very different scores to be made. Anybody who’s played that hole knows that it can go sideways if if you don’t hit a great T-OT and you’re stuck behind a tree. Well, look, you’re you’re stuck behind a tree. Your opponent finds the right part of the fairway to hit that approach up. You’re not getting to the green and so you have to scramble. You have to, you know, fight to the death to stay in that match at the end. And that’s that’s something that’s that’s cool about any concluding match play hole. It offers an opportunity for real variance. I think that’s the that’s the big thing, right? You can you can make a birdie or you can make a triple bogey and both are relatively common outcomes. I think that that’s something in a especially an 18th hole, like a deciding hole. You couldn’t figure it out on the 17 other holes. Here’s one that’s going to do it for you. That’s there’s something compelling about that. I totally agree and I would say there was there was no mention at all about, you know, whether a tree was overhanging too much or if there was uh some area that needed to be cleared out. every player played had the same playing field and so they still had to hit the the the shot in the in the fairway to get some some angle around that tree and it was very exacting and it was a very good premium place on accuracy and I think that is the essence of you know the the match play course has to reward accuracy execution and nerves and I think to me if you put it under that kind of pressure I thought Ciphers did an incredible job of that. Do you wish that these features of an ideal match play course that we’ve been talking about were more common on regular courses? I would have to say I wish more golfers were more open to those types of features on more golf courses because I think we can all we can all build them quite easily. It’s still we have we have owners and members to have to uh to have to to to get it passed. And so, uh, yeah, the fair police in in the in the renovation world certainly comes out. But yes, I absolutely do. And I think that this sense of adventure and sense of emotion and memorability and uniqueness is lost when you’re when you’re kind of handcuffed from from building those types of features. Andy, thanks for coming on the pod with me. That was great. We’ll have you back back again soon, I hope. Yeah, anytime, Garrett. I really appreciate the time. Appreciate it. [Music] This episode of Designing Golf is brought to you by Goodwalk Coffee. Goodwalk Coffee is fueling the team here at Fried Egg Golf, and it’s fueling me specifically. My go-to blend is the Fried Egg Golf Blend, which is a medium light roast. My usual approach is either to use an arrow press or a French press. I just like a a straight up cup of coffee in the morning. No cream, no milk. And for that reason, I really need quality beans. I need the flavor to come from the coffee itself. And the fried egg golf blend is so delicious. It includes naturally processed beans from the Americas and Ethiopia. And it has flavors of milk chocolate and notes of berries. A little touch of sweetness there. It’s exactly what I’m looking for. Now, you can get the fried egg golf blend or any of our special blends delivered to you either every week, every two weeks, or monthly. I love not having to think about reordering my coffee beans myself, and I like just knowing the house is always stocked with what I need in the morning. Head to goodwalk coffee.com/frieded egg to subscribe. Use code fried egg at checkout to save 20% on your entire order. If you order a subscription, you’ll save 30% off your first order, then 10% on all future shipments. Again, that’s code fried egg. So, check out Goodwalk Coffee. It’s really good stuff. All right, let’s get to my quick chat with Brian Schneider. [Music] All right, Brian Schneider, thanks for coming on the podcast. My pleasure. It’s great to be back here. So, we’re talking about what, if anything, makes a good quote unquote matchplay golf course. And I’ve put those scare quotes in there just for you, Brian. Uh, I know you have some interesting thoughts on this subject because back in 2022, you uh tweeted the following. You said, “I’m calling BS” on the design for matchplay marketing angle. Can anyone explain how this is different than simply creating fun, interesting golf? The best architects have done exactly that for over a century. So, I wonder if you could explain a little further why you think designing a golf course for match play is is kind of an empty concept or I don’t know if you would put it that way or just uh you know, not not something that actually changes the way somebody might design a course. I think there should be a statute of limitations for how long you can use a tweet against me. Three years is probably about the boundary. Um I I thought you might enjoy that. you know, ex I don’t in in any way discount the idea that that some golf courses are better suited than others for match play. Um I think match play is a superior way to play the game in general and jo enjoy the game versus stroke play. Um but some golf courses are certainly better suited than others. Um, my, you know, to what I was calling BS on was the notion that certain architects might do different things if match play was the goal of the club versus the things that they would normally do trying to design the best golf course for some other purpose. And you never hear about people designing for stroke play. They just design the best golf courses they can on a given piece of land. And I guess I just assume that, you know, interesting, compelling holes, which are interesting in match play or stroke play are the goal of any architect. And and it’s my, you know, I guess I would frame the idea of a match play golf course as gimmick’s not the right word, a tool to help an uncomfortable client more easily grasp something that might be unconventional or severe because, you know, I think or quirky, you know, I think the best match play holes are those that, you know, offer kind of riskreward. Um there are kind of stark lines to be drawn and and severe penalties to be paid. You know, the idea that somebody might make an eight on this hole, but it only cost you one hole in the match, you know, kind of frees you up to create something more severe. And it to me it’s a shame that architects don’t feel always feel free to create those sorts of interesting questions and present those sorts of interesting compelling hazards. And you know the idea that well this this course is for match play so we can do something different here. It feels more like an angle to convince a client as opposed to actually intentionally doing something different that you would normally do. Yes. I mean I think everybody including architects who have designed matchplay specific golf courses would acknowledge that it is that kind of angle to get not only clients but also golfers comfortable with unconventional ideas. And it sounds like you wish that those unconventional ideas were more acceptable to people on quote unquote strokeplay golf courses, if there is such a thing. There really isn’t such a thing. It’s just a a a regular golf course where people are expected to play any format, usually stroke play, I suppose. But the the interesting point here is that I I think what you’re saying is that whatever features might be compelling for match play would be just as compelling in stroke play. Do you Is that what you think? Exactly. Yep. Exactly. Yeah. It feels like an angle to make people more comfortable with the idea of creating something that’s a little more severe, a little more outside the box. Um, and you know, the the two kind of the two courses I know that were specifically designed for matchplay in recent years, a hoopy and uh Andy Staples course in Florida, the match, there’s both super talented architects that are already doing really compelling stuff and aren’t afraid to be, you know, to be building severe features, you know, and I think all of their work that I’ve seen makes for a great matchplay golf. Um, I don’t think there’s anything unique about Fhoopi necessarily that makes it a better course for match play than Castle Stewart or Boston Golf Club or all the other great places that Gills built. And the work Andy’s done that I’ve seen is also really creative and really compelling. Um, and you know, it’s it’s my understanding that that golf course in Florida is a little shorter. And the average client may not go for, you know, something just marketed as a conventional 5,500 yard golf course. So the angle of, oh, this is something different. This is designed for match play is kind of a hook to get people in on a course that is unconventional in terms of length and and space and whole composition and I’m sure it turned out really well. One of the courses that you have designed uh alongside Blake Conan Old Barnwell in South Carolina comes to mind for me when I think of a course that could be really fun in match play. Now, it’s really fun in stroke play as well, but there are some features at this at that course that would make for exciting moments in match play. Exactly. Because of their quirkiness or or severity and their their tendency to separate um in in a in a clear way good shots from slightly less good shots. And so you might have situations in matches where one player might be on one side of the feature and another player might be on the other side of the feature and there’s a big difference in their ability to score well on the hole. Is that something that you think about when you’re uh designing golf courses uh in in general? Like I want to create features that that kind of uh you know manufacture these situations where um there might be very different outcomes for for two different golf shots. Absolutely. Absolutely. Whether it’s off the tea, you know, if you’re on the left edge of the fairway versus the right edge, you should have a very different shot coming into the green and and whether you miss the green to the right versus the left, your recovery should be entirely different. And and those things should change based on whole location for day-to-day. Um yeah, you know, different consequences for for dramatically different shots I think is really important. if missing right or left feels equally challenging to recover from, there’s less thought that goes into the execution of that shot. Um, so yeah, I do think it’s really important that in any given day there might be a favored angle into a certain green, which it could depend entirely on your preference as a golfer where you want to be coming in from. It doesn’t necessarily have to, you know, maybe not every golfer today wants to be on the right side of the 10th fairway because that’s the easiest place to access a pin. There might be people that want to be left versus right, but there should be very different consequences and different challenges faced by the position from which you’re approaching the green or or trying to get near the hole. Yeah. I mean, if there’s any critique that I have of a lot of modern golf courses, it’s that while there is often a sense of riskreward strategy and a sense that yeah, things are a little bit better on this side of the fairway versus that side of the fairway, the distinction isn’t quite big enough. And because of that, the golf hole might lose a little bit of of tension. And so I guess it’s just a matter of trying to persuade clients or you know discuss things with clients and golfers to an extent in a way that that allows them to see that it’s okay for two very different outcomes to proceed from two shots that are actually technically in the fairway. So, I wonder, you know, if you’re not using the matchplay course angle to persuade clients and golfers of the virtue of of those kinds of u design features, then how do you go about those discussions? How do you bring clients and golfers along to accept bold, quirky golf architecture? Yeah. With the example of old Barnwell, we were very fortunate to have a client who appreciates and enjoys the type of golf that Blake and I enjoyed and and essentially gave us free reign to do what we wanted and and he likes severe greens, which I think are an important component of kind of what we’re talking about. There has to be something something severe or something compelling um consequential on the green end of a hole for every preceding shot to matter. Um and he was also okay with blindness. you know, there are certain fairways at Old Barnwell and on some of the best courses where if you miss it on the right versus the left, you may not be able to see as well and vice versa. Um, and he was okay with all those things and and I’m fortunate to be in a place where I don’t have to spend too much time trying to convince clients that what I want to do is going to be cool. So, I think client selection has something to do with that. um because it’s it could be hard to change someone’s mind, especially before something is built. You know, that can be really hard. You know, once it’s built, it’s easy for people to understand, appreciate, but if you’re talking about things theoretically or even in the dirt, that can be hard for for clients and golfers to understand. Um but I, you know, there are, you know, there are hundreds of examples of great golf courses and great golf holes. You know, most of the very best courses in the world have a level of severity that the average golf course doesn’t have at certain ways. Um, and oftentimes around the greens, Augusta, Pine Valley, you know, the old course, there’s there’s something really interesting and pretty unique going on going on around those greens that make them wonderful golf courses. So, it’s easy enough to point at those examples, I think, and, you know, just try to clarify. and that not every golfer has been fortunate enough to go to all these great places, but um but I think exposing clients to great architecture is an important part of that and helping them understand why this course might be interesting, more interesting their home course or the places they have in their neighborhood. Um I think that’s an important part of it. One thing about classic or golden age architecture is this severity that you’re talking about that people seem to accept because these are accepted classics of golf course architecture. But it seems like owners and golfers these days are hesitant to embrace exactly that kind of severity that they enjoy at those other golf courses. And and that’s always been kind of funny to me. And I wonder if the the rise of stroke play in, you know, postworld war ii America essentially has something to do with that that smoothing out of the severity and boldness that seemed to be so much a part of architecture before World War II when stroke play was not as ingrained in golf culture. Yeah, I think that the American and it is pretty uniquely American obsession with stroke play as the not just the preferred style of playing golf but almost the unanimous way to play golf is is detrimental to architecture. Um, that said, I mean, the tastes have certainly changed in large part to, you know, kind of a small group of architects that have taken a different approach to their work and and certainly platforms like yours and, you know, popular figures in the podcasting and media world that have beaten a different drum and helped golfers become more accustomed to things that are different, you know, as opposed to it’s people are taking golf trips to places that are different than what they can find at home, you you know that that’s why you travel to play golf so you can see something you can’t get in your backyard. Um fortunately there are more and more of those places being built these days and I think golfers are more and more in tune with accepting that and and embracing and pursuing that. Um so taste of change in architecture and I think it’s easier now than it was 20 years ago to maybe get away with something that’s quirkier, a little more severe than what might have been acceptable a few decades ago. And maybe we don’t need to call it a matchplay golf course in order to uh introduce some of those features. Well, a lot of great golf courses have been built without that moniker and both clients and and uh consumers seem to enjoy them and and recognize that they’re fun places to play. Thank you for coming on the podcast, Brian. I’ll have to have you back on for a longer discussion at some point, but I appreciate you uh uh joining me for this uh short segment here. My pleasure. Look forward to it. here. [Music] This episode is brought to you by Club Champion. We’re excited to have Club Champion as a partner again in 2025. And if you’re looking to improve your game this year, Club Champion has the most highly trained fitters in the world. They have an in-house university that trains every Club Champion fitter. They get continued education from manufacturers to stay upto-date with all the newest innovations. These are career fitters who fit all day, every day. This is what they do and there are no distractions by accessories, lessons, or anything else. What they do is fit you to golf clubs. Every Club Champion store has over 65 brands, which equates to nearly 70,000 different head and shaft combinations. There’s equipment for every golfer and every swing. If you’re tall, if you’re short, if you have a faster swing, if you have a slower swing, if you’re a junior, a senior, a beginner, or a pro, Club Champion can fit you to the right clubs because they have the freedom to use any brand and any head and shaft combination. Whatever they want. They’re not pushing a particular agenda. you go to Club Champion when you just want to find the golf equipment that is right for you. You can get a free driver or iron fitting with a club purchase if you use the code fried egg at clubchion.com/fried egg. Again, that’s the code fried egg. clubchion.com/fried egg. Check it out. [Music] All right, just me now. I wanted to wrap up with a few thoughts on match play golf courses and Beth Paige Black in particular. So, a couple of takeaways from my chats with uh Andy Staples and Brian Schneider. For Andy, from the architect’s perspective, the big benefit of designing a golf course for match play is just the freedom to pursue unconventional ideas, right? It’s not as big of a deal if the course isn’t 7,000 yards long from the back tees or if the par doesn’t hit 70 or above. You can have a lot of halfpar holes. You can have severe or quirky greens. you can have some really punishing hazards because the course’s relationship to par doesn’t matter as much when the golfer isn’t playing stroke play. The way that a lot of golfers judge fairness is if I play this hole really well, I can make a birdie. If I play it just well, then I can make a par. If I play it slightly less well, I reliably make a bogey. Right? It’s it’s all kind of based around this concept of what’s the par and and is it feasible and you know then at the end of the round if I’ve played more or less to my average standard have I recorded a score that matches my handicap. All of these expectations come from the format of stroke play and they tend to really limit what an architect can do with a course. If the player expects a consistent adherence to par and handicap, the architect has to smooth out some rough edges that the course could potentially have. Now, what Brian Schneider argues is that yes, those pressures on the architect do exist, but they don’t change the fact that what makes a compelling matchplay course is basically the same as what makes a compelling stroke play course. We shouldn’t accept the premise that a course where stroke play is the main format should be more conventional or less bold and quirky. You know, halfpar holes are fun in stroke play, too. Variance is fun in stroke play, too. That said, I don’t I I don’t really see Andy and Brian being on opposite sides here. I don’t really think they’re saying terribly different things. Andy in fact acknowledged in our interview that he wishes golfers were more accepting of quote unquote matchplay design on regular golf courses. Where Andy and Brian may be a little different is just in the messaging of their work to clients and players. Andy is saying, “Let me help you adjust your expectations by branding this course as a matchplay venue and then I can do the kind of design that I would really want to do anywhere and everywhere.” Brian is saying, “I want clients and players to accept bold, quirky design on every type of golf course.” I think these are both legitimate approaches, both trying to push golf architecture in a more creative and innovative direction and that’s the important thing. Okay, so with those ideas in mind, let’s talk about the Black Course at Beth Page State Park, the venue of course of uh next week’s Rder Cup. This is a great golf course, but it’s not great, I don’t think, for reasons that will be immediately important on TV or in any format of professional golf, whether match play or stroke play. For me, the biggest strengths of Beth Page Black are its land and its routing. It’s just a gorgeous, varied piece of land and a pitch perfect, masterful outand back routing. If you want more detail on those subjects, little plug for Friday Golf Club in the club for our membership. I wrote a course profile on Beth Page Black in collaboration with my colleague Matt Rius where we go into some more depth on the details of the black courses land and routing. But as a matchplay venue and for that matter a stroke play venue, right? I’ve got I’ve got Brian Schneider’s points in my head right now. I do think Beth Page Black has a couple of weaknesses. The biggest one is a relative lack of interest on and around the greens. So those bright line distinctions between a moderately good approach and a moderately poor approach which Brian I Brian and I talked about a little are not as present at the black course. The greens are fairly simple guarded by rough and bunkers. And I think that volatility um that that is a big part of what can make a tournament course compelling to watch isn’t really there at at Beth Page Black. Augusta National could be seen as being on the other side of the spectrum where you see incredible volatility on and around the greens. I’m not sure that you’re going to get that at Beth Page Black. Now, we’ve also talked about how riskreward scenarios can really pop in match play. You can have one player take a conservative route, another player take an aggressive route, and in match play, you can see them battle it out. You can see those strategies go head-to-head. The design of the hole in those cases is enhancing the story of the competition. It’s raising the stakes. There are some holes at the black course that do this. You have the fourth hole, a par five along the lines of AW Tillingast’s signature great hazard template. Um, now for these guys carrying the great hazard, which is a huge bunker cut into a ridge, is not going to be a big issue on the second shot. That is kind of the point of the design, but you know, we’ve we’ve gotten where we’ve gotten with regulating golf equipment and and you know, the hole just doesn’t play for professional golfers like it uh at Tilling has to imagine that it would play. But what should be fun to watch is what happens when players go for the green on their second shots. There are a number of different outcomes possible, including a very scary one behind the green where there’s a big runoff. So, that should be pretty cool. We we we’ll see whether players go right at the green, right at the pin, or maybe bail out a little bit to the right to avoid that possible bad outcome behind the green. I think there will be some strategic variety there. Then the very next hole, the fifth, is an excellent riskreward par4 with a big diagonal hazard off the tee. There should be a major advantage given to those who make the long carry on the right side. Then the sixth and ninth holes are solid dog leg par4s where you can choose between cutting the corner and laying back. So overall there is some strategic riskreward design out at Beth Page Black, but in general the fairways are pretty narrow. Some of them have been widened since the 2019 PGA, namely the 10th and 11th, but for the most part, I don’t think the fairways are nearly wide enough to create different angles. Players will just be trying to hit the fairway, any part of the fairway, not necessarily thinking about riskreward positioning. So overall, Beth Page Black, great golf course, but does have some weaknesses that limit its appeal as a match play venue. I will say though, as a Ryder Cup spectator venue, I think the Black Course is going to be fantastic. And this is partly because of how the routing works. Andy Staples made a a kind of similar point to the one I want to make when he said that the course builds in difficulty and complexity as it goes on. 15, 16, and 17 are very tough. Two long par4s and a 200y par three, an appropriate finale for a hard test of golf. What I’d add to that is that 15, 16, and 17 all sit in a kind of natural arena below this big ridge. 15 plays up onto the ridge, 16 plays off of it, and 17 green is benched into it. And this area, I think, is going to be absolutely electric in the RDER Cup. Most of the course travels through the woods. a lot of the holes somewhat isolated from each other. But then with 15, it just bursts out into this open area. The holes aren’t bordered by trees. There’s a natural amphitheater effect and that place is going to be crazy when the when the matches get there. Hopefully the fans will be respectful. We we’ll see. You know, there’s a I think a lot of people are assuming that that might not be the case, but whatever whatever the attitude of the fans might be, it’s going to be very very loud and intense in this part of the golf course. And it makes such a great contrast with where holes 2 through 14 are. Those holes are in the woods one and then 15 through 18 are all out in this kind of open area. it it’s going to be spectacular. And I think that’s an important feature of a venue for an event like a writer cup. Not all courses have this dynamic on those closing holes. And so enjoy that part of it. Try to pick up on that. If you’re watching from home, try to pick up on it uh on the telecast. If you’re on site, you know, stay safe. Uh it’s going to be pretty crowded in this area, but uh that’ll be a fun place to be. All right, I think that’s it for match play golf course design and for Beth Page Black. Enjoy the writer cup. [Music] This episode of Designing Golf was produced by Will Balsam. Thank you, Will. So, a couple of bits of business here. First of all, we are running a whole design contest that actually involves Andy Staples, one of my guests for this very episode. Andy is building a par three course in Minnesota. And one of the holes on this course will be designed by a Friday Golf Club member. To find out more details about this contest, go to the fried egg.com. And if you haven’t yet become a member of Fraggolf Club, go to the fried egg.com/membership and see everything we’re offering there, including this design contest. All right, second bit of business is that we’re releasing a coffee table book. We’ve been putting this together for a while. We’re really excited about it. Uh been working on this for for several months now. The coffee table book essentially compiles some of the course profiles that we’ve been writing for Friday Egg Golf Club. We’ve refined those course profiles. We’ve uh introduced some new imagery illustrations by Matt Rius and Cameron Herdis that that are absolutely fantastic. So, if you’re interested in a coffee table book, then go to the Fried Egg Pro Shop and um and see what that’s all about. But yeah, we’re we’re very excited to to get this out into the world. And if you would like to actually bundle a Friday golf club membership with the order of a coffee table book, we’re offering a pretty good deal there. Okay, that’s it. Thank you for listening and we’ll be back again soon with another episode. [Music]

With the Ryder Cup approaching, Garrett asks a question that has been on his mind for a while: what, if anything, suits a golf course to the match-play format? Garrett talks to two different architects: first, Andy Staples, who recently designed a match-play course called The Match at PGA National Resort; second, Brian Schneider, who is somewhat skeptical of the notion of a “match-play course.” To close out the episode, Garrett discusses his takeaways from his chats with Andy and Brian, and he offers some thoughts on Bethpage Black’s design and suitability for the Ryder Cup.

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