Ed is joined by long-time USGA Rules Official Christie Austin, who made the initial Sam Burns ruling during the final round of the U.S. Open that stirred up a lot of heated discussions!
Christie, a Colorado Golf Hall of Famer, served on the USGA Executive Committee from 2007-13 and as the first female chair of the USGA Rules of Golf Committee, in 2012.
If a player cleans his ball during play of a hole, except on the putting green, he shall incur a penalty of one stroke. That’s a rule, Jerry. But it’s just a friendly game. Why do you always have to be such a stickler? Because that’s the way I was raised. [Music] Welcome to Spirit of the Game, brought to you by the Colorado Golf Association. Now, here’s your host, Edmate. Okay, welcome back to another edition of Spirit of the Game. I’m so excited, as I always say. That’s what I always say to start these. I because I am. I really am. So, a very special guest uh this month for our September issue uh or offering. And that’s our She’s back again. This is like Saturday Night Out Live when they come back for the third or fourth or fifth. Christy Austin, welcome. Good to have you. Thank you. Happy to be here, Ed. Okay. So, some of you may recall last time we had the the the uh what do we call you guys? The first lady and first man of rules in Colorado. Okay. Christy and Bob Austin. This will be nice because you don’t have to compete for the mic today. Exactly. You only have to compete with me. That’s okay. I I like that competition. Okay. Well, I like to talk. So, um All right. So, let’s sort of uh I’m going to get into this just to kind of we’re going to circle back, but the the focus of today is a very uh well-known ruling that was made at this year’s US became well known with Sam Burns and the quote unquote temporary water on what what fairway was that? 15 on 15. But we’re gonna that’s what we’re going to talk about. And I’m going to tease this by saying I have talked to a lot of golfers about this ruling. And I was playing just the other day knowing you were going to be on and I said by show of hands and it was four other people. I guess it was three other people. How many people think that should have been temporary water? Should have been relief. And every hand went up. Yeah. Um, and then I did my level best to explain the definition of temporary water and uh I’m not sure I convinced them. So today we’re going to we’re going to at least [Music] interpreting the rules and applying the rules. If you have a problem with the rule, well that’s another matter, but we we definitely want to, you know, discuss the facts. So before we do that, just remind our listeners your background with the USGA, with the rules of golf, and why you get invited to even be there to give rulings. Well, I’m always honored to be invited because it’s, as you know, it’s a select few that um at our level that are invited. It’s mostly paid professionals that officiate at the US Open. So, it’s always a a wonderful invitation. So my background I I have an unusual background in that I started rules of golf when I joined the board of the USGA in uh 2007 which is an unusual way to step into the rules but that’s how I did uh my first rules assignment was at Augusta for the masters which was frightening but I got through it and then I quickly became certified in the rules of golf knowing that we were going to officiate at every major championship and that the uh USGA puts on conducts. So I started in 2007 I’ve done um over I think I’m at 75 USGA national championships and with NCAA championships I’m over 100 total. So I’ve done it a lot uh over the 19 years I’ve been at it and really enjoy it. And every year I do it I think this is so fun. It’s just it’s a great group of people. It’s fun to test your knowledge at at rules and make sure you’re certified. So, you have to sit through a three and a half day class and take an exam and make sure you get the number to get the the best invitations. Yeah. So, I continue to do it, Ed, and I’m telling you, it’s it’s a thrill every time. That’s awesome. Um, so you weren’t born in 2007? No, I was. You had a life. I was not. You had a life before this. I did. So tell our listeners what professional background you have. Why would the USJ even think to invite you to Well, I’m and I know you’re so humble you’ll say, “Well, I don’t know. They shouldn’t have.” But I sort of know. Um I was a CPA by trade and um my my last career was CFO of Mars Capital, which I loved. I was there 10 years. But when I was asked to join the board and I think when I was asked to join the board, I interviewed in 2006 was was uh nominated and um joined the board in seven in 2007. They were looking for women and I think I was just fortunate to fit the box. They wanted uh women that had some skill and I had I was a competitive player. So I’d played in a number of championships, USGA championships and I was vice chair and had worked many of the championships at Cherry Hills. So I met USGA folks at the 2005 women’s open that we chaired. Okay. And so that’s where I met the executive committee and the women’s committee and I think that’s how I got on the radar. So when I uh when I joined I retired because this is a it’s a full-time volunteer position is how I tell people I gave up a lucrative career to go volunteer and it’s been uh we’ve never looked back. Bob supported me in that. I was I think the fifth woman in 114 years to be a member of the executive committee and now there’s many women. They’ve really uh they’ve really changed their ways and have many women involved now. But I was kind of unusual at the time. Yeah. But you also went on to chair the rules of golf committee during that time as well. I did. Yeah. Yeah. I my last year on the board in 2012, I chaired the rules of golf and that was when we were working through banning the an anchoring of the putter and that was a tumultuous time, shall we say, and I had many meetings across the pond and many Zoom meetings and I mean it was it was it was a crazy year but we got it done. Yeah. I want to come I want to make sure we don’t forget to talk about that. I don’t want to get sidetracked now, but um and talk about the roll back of the ball and kind of some other bigger bigger I wouldn’t say bigger, but just uh um more more uh widely known or widely impacted than one single ball in the fairway on 15 at at Oakmont. Um so let’s see. Um, how do invitations for the USJ championships work? How do they decide now who gets invited to? I mean, the USJ conducts a lot of tournaments and you don’t only work the open. You work Yeah. US girls and so many. So, Walker Cup coming up. Yeah. Cypress Point. You’ll be there. Yes, I’m working it. I’m fantastic. Talk about exclusive invitation. I don’t know how I got on the list, but I’m I’m going. And you know, you like to say that, but if you work 75 USJ championships, I would hope um that elevates you into the radar. Thank you. Yeah. So, how does it work? How do you get Well, it’s interesting. They put out now they, you know, the process has changed over over the years, but now they put out a questionnaire sometime in the fall that says, “What championships are you interested in working?” Now, they exclude the opens. Mhm. That’s not on the questionnaire. It’s every other championship, you know, women’s am all the all the all the emitters. So, you just sort through your calendar and say, I’d love to work these three or these two or what you know, whatever ones you want to work. Then, they will invite you and say, you know, we’d love to have you. You they invite you sometime late December, which is great because it used to happen at the last minute. Now, you have some time to plan your calendar and actually go. And then the invitations for the open go out shortly after that. And I don’t know, Ed, I just know that sometimes I get invited and I’m But But do you How many did you check? Do I mean the ones that you just the ones I want to work? I Why do you What What What do you choose? Why and why? Okay. Um Bob and I always do the girls junior. It’s one of our favorite championships. Okay. And we do that together. And we usually get either a semi-final or final match. And so it’s just a it’s just a thrill and it’s a wonderful talk about getting to see the upandcomers. Oh my goodness. Well, that’s exactly you get to see him young and before. By the way, did Lahi W ever make a splash in the in the girls junior? I mean, she’s she’s taking She made a splash at the NCAA’s and now she’s making a big splash, right, as she’s turned professional and she’s a sweetheart. Yeah. Um, so I I usually pick two or three because Okay. And and the reason I I say that is because I I usually do get an open, either women’s or or an open. And you know, I like to do other things. I like to play golf. I like to travel. And and so I I don’t fill up my entire summer working championships. Um and I typically get what I request, which is really nice. Do you usually get more than one of the opens? Like they only give you one open. Oh, really? Mhm. There’s just so many people that want to work and open. Yeah. And I I I get it and I actually agree with that that we need to spread the wealth because it’s such a it’s such an honor and a privilege to work those national championships that we need to have everyone that’s qualified get a chance to do it at some point. Yeah. And I’ve done 13 US Opens. Have you been on a run of consecutive US Opens? You know, it’s funny you asked because I I worked uh seven consecutively from seven to one, two, three, four. Yeah. Seven consecutively till 13. And then they they sort of wanted you take want you to take a year or two off after you roll off the executive committee. And I did I’ve done one, two, three. I’ve done six since I rolled off, but I’ve done the last three. So that is that is a run. I suspect that they’ll roll me off again. Probably next year I’ll probably sit out a few. I wouldn’t be surprised. Particularly after you screwed up the Sam Burns. Yeah, for sure. Well, we’ll talk about that. Yes. Yes. Decide if I screwed it up. No. No, you definitely did not. Like we’ll get to that. Yeah. Um Well, that’s really cool. And by the way, you know, when you listen to podcasts, they’ll always say back after the break and then they do a little inter. We don’t do that here. we will when when we become more famous and we get the sponsors. So, we’re going to we’re going to just interject here that you’re also on the Colorado Golf Foundation board, which is uh the board that supports youth golf in Colorado and uh I want to thank you for that role and you’re very active on that board. So, that’s our little our little plug. Oh, okay. For the Colorado Golf Association for you. Uh the foundation board has what eight nine member board members and you’re among a great group of people that are fiduciaries over now four four and a half million dollars that we have in the in the bank. And in addition to supporting CGA programs for STE chapters, we have a grants committee that’s always looking to support worthwhile causes that uh focus on youth golf and youth development through golf. So, well, and I’ll put a plug in for Ryan and Tim who are doing an amazing job at um identifying, administrating, you know, all the work that goes into running that foundation. They are just stellar and you’re you’re fortunate to have them. We’re forunate to have as as board members. Totally agree. Okay, so let’s get into Oakmont. So, uh you got the call um and you were invited to go to Oak. Had you officiated there before? It’s funny because that was my very first open in 2007. Okay. So, you had a little experience that probably changed quite a bit. Well, we used to walk with the players back then. Well, not only that, the golf course is totally different. Well, the golf course is totally different. It was treelined and right back in 07. Um Oh, actually, no. They had removed they hadn’t removed all the trees, but they had the process. Yeah, it was. Yeah. So, when do you arrive uh in US Open week? Um and do you get to do you they expect you to work all four days? Can you choose to work just a short week? How does that all work? Yeah, they um they request if you’re going to work that you work the entire you work the four days. Yeah. Again, because the invitations are are Yeah. Um there’s just not very many of them. They want they want you there. Although some people will request a half day off. I always feel like, hey, I’m there to work. If you need me all day, I’m there all day. Mhm. And so, um, you go you usually go, um, you fly in Wednesday so that you’re there for a Thursday rules meeting and a Thursday, uh, TIO demonstration slashme, temporary immovable obstructions for those that are unfamiliar, although people listening to this podcast know exactly. Yeah. So, so TIO’s typically, especially at these championships, are all the buildout that’s normally not on the golf course, right? grandstands, you know, microphones, cameras, concessions, restrooms, all this stuff. All these people, there’s a lot of stuff. Right. Yeah. Right. And balls go weird places. They sure do. So anyway, we do that and then we have a rules dinner, rules meeting and dinner. But by then you’ll know your assignments. And so they expect you, as they should, to go do your homework, go out to the hole, walk the hole, become familiar with potential areas where you’re going to be needed. Um, so we do that on Thursday as well. I’m sorry, on Wednesday. Am I getting the date screwed up? I’m You said that makes sense. You fly on Tuesday. The rules meeting. Um, Wednesday. Yeah. And the walk. It’ be tough to do it on Thursday. Yeah, Thursday would be tough since that’s day one of the championship. So I was a day uh daylight on that. But you get the drift. I mean we go in and do our homework, have meetings, and then we’re ready to rock and roll when the first te So you know that really resonates with me because I’ve worked a couple US Opens and when we were when we were walking with players, I’ve never worked the US Open since when the we’ll call it the bedside man or the officiating approach u went to zones or holes or whatever. Uh, and I found it to be very daunting to get there, to get the hole by whole notes, to walk the entire golf course, and to feel this sense of overwhelm. Uh, it’s like cramming for a final. And I found that to be, you know, frankly, very stressful. And I learned not to worry about it. I just said, “Okay, I’m going to do the best I can. If I’m in a situation where I’m over my head or I don’t know what’s going on, I’ll just get on the radio.” And then I when I had the chance to work the masters, it was it was really nice to be on a whole and really get out there early and understand what’s going on. So, how does your approach with the change in terms of how you prepare based on the uh the different styles now? Well, I think you’re exactly right. I think that before you sort of needed to be familiar with the entire golf course, right? And that is that’s a lot of that’s a lot. There’s a lot of things on every hole. So, I think being an expert at your hole is probably more more useful and calming because you you know you know what you’re going to potentially see. And as you as the hole plays out during the day, you’ll know pretty quickly. Yeah. Do they change your assignment every day? Yes. Okay. So, you What holes were you on this year? So, and I actually went back and looked at some stats. So, I was on the 10th hole and I had the entire hole. Um, I had three rulings, so not many, but total rulings on Thursday were 76. 76 rulings across the course. And you know that because because we keep stats. Yeah. And every rule every rule that you every ruling that you do, we now input it on our device and explain what it was. No more written cards. No, no, no. It’s so It’s so much better. Oh, good. And you do it real time. Well, just think when AI comes along and he won’t need you anymore. Yeah. I don’t know. Robot rules officials. You know that that’s not going to happen, right? Because there’s too much to subjectivity and too much nuance every situation. Exactly. So, and then on uh Friday there was 58 rulings. I had five. I was on 18. Okay. On Friday. Were those were those TIOs? No. No. Uh, no. They were not ti. In fact, Oakmont is unusual in that we didn’t have that many TIO rulings because the buildout was far enough away so big from the green complexes and the rough was incredibly long. So, the ball never got there. Yeah. So, we I mean, we had a few, but typically you showed it on TV, too. You could see that. Oh, it was brutal. Yeah. So, Saturday there was 36 rulings. So, the rulings actually went down. Yeah. Which is Remind me the weather. What was the weather? That does make sense because you cut the field in half, right? Or more than half. So, and and the play gets better. So, you’re going to get fewer fewer offline golf, but it was still wet. Um I had seven green. I had I had no rulings. I kept thinking I might have on Saturday. On Saturday, I had I had the seventh green. Just the green. It’s par three. Okay. No rulings. It’s a par four. What am I saying? But I had just the green. So, I had nothing. Yeah. Um, Sunday is a big question mark because they didn’t fill out the stats for Sunday. Oh. So, I don’t know how many total rulings there were, but I was on 15 fairway, which I thought would be quiet. Oh my gosh, this is going to be so great. I’ll see every player come through and yeah, hit their drives, hit their approach shots to the green, and it’s going to be a great day. Well, the weather was uh c it was calling for lousy weather, which right, if you watched the open, you saw spurts of very bad weather. And we actually had to call play probably 3/4 of the way through Sunday where we were off the course for over an hour. I think it was hour and a half. Was that for lightning? Was it for rain? It was for unplayable condition. It was It was rain. It was down. The greens were puddling and Yeah, but there was lightning, too. I mean it was everything. It was really really tough. Um so so typically uh my rulings on Sunday I can tell you were mostly about temporary water, right? Because there was the the course because it had gotten so much rain before the championship and then during the championship it still got rain overnight. We were getting, you know, inundated with rain. So the course to say it was saturated is probably an understatement. It it was very very wet. You know, I the one of the two opens I worked, the first one was a Beth Page. It was the year Lucas Glover one and exactly the same kind of conditions. I think it was 09. Were you at that one? I was not. Um, and I learned a lot by being at that championship. And I’m sorry, I was there. See how you forget them? Yeah, you were at Beth Page. Yeah, I was at Beth Page. It was the green the whole golf course was so saturated. It was like a somebody described it perfectly. If you take a sponge and you soak it and you don’t squeeze it, right? You just so it’s full of water and the the surface of it is you kind of playable. But the moment you get any more rain, it just it just it just oozes water, right? And that’s kind of what it felt like. And it seemed like that’s what you were definitely dealing with this year at Oakland. Yes, we were. Um it in fact I had Scotty She This is a perfect example of what happened with this temporary water. So Scotty Sheffler comes out. He’s in a few groups after play resumes. Yeah. Sopping wet. And and as people saw on television, if you took a practice swing and you’re hitting the grass, you’re spraying water because I mean there’s definitely it’s the course is saturated. So he did have temporary water. He was early on coming out. He did have temporary water. So, we walked through, took us a few minutes to try to identify where his nearest Yeah. uh relief would be. And guess what? It was going to be in the rough. What did he decide to do? He was going to play it. He’s going to play it. He’s not going to drop it in that long rough. So, so I want to get right into the meat of this this now. And but before I do that, talking about temporary water, the definition of temporary water, um was there discussion about calling it for the day? No. No, because I on the on the sitting on my comfortable couch, I was like, hm, I wonder if they should be playing. And it’s so easy to sit there and be smarter than everybody in the, you know, in the lion’s den they’re dealing with. The pressure to finish I know is immense on a Sunday because of all the infrastructure and all the just the economics of finishing on the and I just it do you feel like that and again this is this isn’t I’m not asking you to second guess the decision. Did the weather hold out after you resumed or did it I kept trying to remember. It seems like there was umbrellas again. Did the conditions of the course get worse is what I’m saying after the resumption. No, they did not. No, in fact, they got a little better. Okay. Because I’m sure bringing me to Sam Burns. But but um no, it was uh it was it was very much time to time to quit when we did when we called it to you know, lightning and rain and just unplayable. But and there was chatter during the break. You know, like I said, I think it was an hour and a half. We were off the course. And just to be clear, when you say chattered, so everybody knows, you’re not making that call. Who is making the call on resuming? Who is who’s ultimately? It’s it’s really the is that John Bowdenhammer making that call or is that a Craig Winter? That’s a that’s a Thomas Pagel Winter and also the staff. Yeah. at Oakmont who were out there trying to get the course in shape to play again because we were squeegeeing fairways. We were squeegeeing greens. Yeah. And at the end of the day when we got the got the guys back out there, it was playable. Yeah. Yeah. Um there’s no doubt it was playable. It was wet. Yeah. It was saturated. No doubt. Yeah. But you know, these guys are professionals and they’re used to playing in lousy weather and it probably played in worse. But it is the US Open, so there’s a lot of pressure. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, let’s talk give us the definition. So, you’re out there, play is resumed, the course is saturated but playable, and now you as a rules official on 15 are having to be the adjudicator. I’ll have to be able to use that word. The the person deciding whether there is a ball is uh if there’s interference, try to be exacting in our language here from temporary water. So, what is temporary water? Okay. So the definition of temporary water is any temporary accumulation of water on the surface of the ground such as puddles from rain or irrigation or an overflow from a body of water that is not in a penalty area and can be seen before or after the player takes a stance without pressing down excessively with their feet. That’s pretty key. It is not enough for the ground to be merely wet, muddy, or soft, or for the water to be momentarily visible as the player steps on the ground. An accumulation of water must remain present either before or after the stance is taken. Yeah, it’s amazing how that definition says it all. It does. Um, you know, and this isn’t I don’t know where I picked this up. the the rules um define the game and the definitions define the rules. And if you read the definitions and do if you’re interested in becoming um a certified rules official or just have an interest in them, read the definitions. The other thing that I think is key in that definition that I was listening for is on the surface. And this is where I have to say uh I I can see the logic uh of somebody trying to poke holes in the in in the ruling or in the whether or not there was interference because if you think about stance lie area of intended swing. Say your ball is in deep grass and near the deep grass there’s a sprinkler head and your ball is not sitting on the sprinkler head. your ball is not you’re not standing on it, but it’s going to interfere as your ball makes impact. Particularly kind of an explosion shot near a green side where the grass, we all know you play that like a bunker shot. So, you’re going deep. So, as you follow through, you may impact that sprinkler head. That’s your area of intended swing. So, and again I I can see somebody saying the ball hit club hits ball, you know, you then where’s my area of intended swing? Well, it’s going down beyond the surface. It’s now bringing up water. Why is that not my area of intended swing? And I’m not asking you to rewrite the definition, but right, you sat on the rules of golf committee and as we, you know, unpack this, do you think that there is what would happen if the definition was expanded to in to address this and so that the the balls that you were ruling on because your ruling was it’s easy to sit back and say the ruling was wrong. That’s casual. No, it’s not or temporary water. was you made the right ruling and I want to come back to the ruling in a minute to talk about how you exactly walk through with Sam Burns, but what would be the problem in saying we’re going to expand it to include the subterranean uh water because that’s subjective and I I think what you get into then Ed is well how deep I mean and how can you measure that and how can you define that so then it becomes very difficult to determine if temporary water exists if you’re talking about subsurface right Um, I I think the way it’s written is pretty darn good. Yeah, I think it’s Well, you just said that it becomes pretty darn subjective. And I think there’s a strong comparison to divots and fairways. When is it, you know, because now every single lie of every ball somebody’s going to say, I have temporary water because it’s right there and they’re going to take a T and they’re going to Yeah. So, it’s to say that’s a slippery slope. The same would be true for divots and fairways. If you say you get re from relief from divots and fairs, well, everything’s a divot or everything’s something less than perfect is going to be uh somebody’s going to make that claim. Yeah, we would I would love to talk about divots at some point in our not today, but you know, that that argument if you ask anybody what rule they’d like to change, that’s always number one. Oh, I know. We need to get relief. It’s and I think you can I have had enough of those conversations that I think you can fairly fair fairly quickly persuade people if they’re willing you know if they’re even remotely logical. I mean it just when when is a divot no longer a divot. Okay. So let’s get right into the so so the players are now coming through. They’re coming through. Scotty Sheffler asked for relief. He didn’t like he was actually in temporary water. Had interference from temporary water. He didn’t like it. Who else did you have the same conversation with? Well, I had I had another interesting really right before Let me just explain this one. Uh Carlos Ortiz. So now, meanwhile, the players are coming out. It’s, you know, it’s miserable conditions. If you hit it in the rough there, typically the the players are just chunking it out. And guess where it always lands when they chunk it out? In the crosswalk, which is where they do get relief, right? Right. Okay. So anyway, so Carlos Ortiz, poor guy, I think he was in a group one or two in front of Burns. Um, the ball spotter stepped on his ball when we were searching for it. Oh, wow. So, and you know, went into the ground. So, obviously his his lie had been impacted. So, uh, he was very happy to know that he could drop it. Oh, yeah. I mean, so I’m sorry, placed within a club length. So, um, got him out. He was so so sweet. And by the way, every person you deal with, every player, they’re just golfers and they’re very respectful and they’re um they they I’ve never had anybody snap at me, right? It’s it’s it’s very professional. So, we got him going. But, you know, Mark Leechman, Victor Havlin, Max uh Grazerman, who he asked for temporary relief, too, and he didn’t have it. So, he wasn’t afraid. So those others you mentioned, were they all the same asking for temporary water relief? No, crosswalk. Uh Mark Leeman and Victor were in the crosswalk and then Max chopped out and he was in the crosswalk after he was denied um temporary temporary relief. Yeah. But you know, going to going to So here’s comes the last group, you know. Phew, the day is almost over. Great. Yeah. And he’s in the fairway and so I just don’t even think a thing about it. I’m looking and several of the balls had been there previously. They hadn’t called me over. same area. Same area. And he’s him and his caddy are chatting. He’s taking practice swings, of course, spraying water everywhere. And he waves me over. And I thought, “Oh, this is interesting. I bet I know what this is.” So I I I go over there and say, “How can how can I help you, Sam?” He says, “Well, I think I’m I think I’m in uh casual water.” Because that’s typically what players still call it. I think I’m entitled to relief because of all this water around my ball. And when I take a stance, I said, “Well, let’s let’s look at that.” And I said, “There has to be visible water around your ball, and there’s not.” Um, and so I had him take his stance a couple of times. Mhm. And of course, when he stomps down, there’s a little bit of water coming up, but it’s not visible once he takes his stance. Right. And I explained that to him. I said, you know, unfortunately, the rule is very clear on what is defined as temporary water, and you just don’t have it. his caddy gets involved and says, “Well, wait, look at the ball. Isn’t there water?” Right? I mean, they’re trying to tell me that there’s water there. I said, “You know, I just don’t see it.” So, he said, “Thank okay, thanks.” He was fine. He was like, “Let’s move on.” Mhm. So, uh, Bones is right there. So, I I deny relief. Uh, Bones Mai, yeah, is there on the microphone. I back away. Bones backs away and he goes, “So, you just denied Burns relief from temporary water?” I said I did and he turns away from me and he’s still 2 feet from me and he says, “Well, Sam Burns was just denied temporary water relief.” And I just can’t even believe it. Oh my gosh. So, he make Now, he’s not talking I I figured out he wasn’t talking to the broadcast live, but he was talking to the booth telling these people what what was transpiring. And I looked back over at Sam and his caddy and I looked at the putting green. They’re still hacking away around the putting green. It hadn’t cleared yet. That hole was the hardest hole. It was just brutal. Lots of bogeies and doubles and others. Yeah. Anyway, so I thank goodness something popped in my head and said, you know, Sam, I’m happy to call over a rover if you’d like a second opinion and you know, it just takes a minute. I’m happy to do that. He says, okay. But he didn’t say, let’s do it. So I I backed away again. Another probably 30 seconds goes by and he’s talking to his caddy and he’s he says, “Yeah, you know what? Let’s let’s do let’s call over the rover.” I said, “Perfect.” Get on the radio, call over my rover. Who was that, by the way? It was uh Ben. He was Shade. No, no. Head of the DP World Tour. Oh, okay. Good. Head rules official. I mean, this guy was brilliant and wonderful. So obviously as you know when you call in for a second opinion there’s no discussion between you and the person who is going to give the second opinion you walk away right because you want them to be it’s a fresh a fresh start a fresh look at the situation. So Ben comes over and goes through the exact same steps that I had gone through. Sam let’s you know let’s look at your let’s look at your ball. There’s no temporary wire. Let’s look at your stance. asked him a couple of times. Um, same same answer. There is no temporary water here. And and again, Sam was okay with it. Now the green had cleared. And I think he just hit a bad shot. I mean, his lie did not dictate that awful shot that he hit. He, you know, the nerves he’d already started um imploding, I guess, because I wasn’t watching the telecast, but it from what people have told me, and I did go back and watch a little bit of it, he was struggling. Yeah, he was just struggling and uh it was really unfortunate that that happened. Um his relief, by the way, had we said, “Yeah, you know, there is temporary water,” his relief would have been one foot away in the rough. Yeah. And he would not have taken that because the lies there were impossible, right? So, at least where his ball was, he could get the club on it and advance it to the green, right? Not so with the rough. That’s an interesting there’s a lot in a lot of interesting things there. Um I think you were brilliant personally to ask for that second opinion not for him but for you just because you would have if you hadn’t done that and you then you guess would have been that much more weight on your shoulders and um why why wouldn’t you have gone ahead and said I’m asking this because and I think I know what you’re going to say by the way Sam your nearest point of relief if is going to be in the rough is there is that crossing the line in your opinion of giving the player advice just saying and the reason part of the reason that kind of got me thinking is Andy McY who you remember was a wonderful human and a wonderful rules official. We were talking over lunch one day at one of the opens and he said there’s nothing wrong with leading the player a little bit and letting them know where the outcome might be without in his in his opinion without you know violating the advice rule. Um did that ever cross your mind? It didn’t. It didn’t. Certainly, I could I could have. What has what has crossed my mind since then is I know one thing, every time I’m in a ruling, a high-profile ruling or a difficult situation, I will always call for a second opinion, even if the player doesn’t ask for it simply because I don’t do this for a living, right? Most most of the guys out there do it for a living. The players know the guys that do it for a living or, you know, for the most part, at least the American uh rules officials. And I just think it’s a good way to well it’s a good way to make sure you a you’re doing it right but but just to protect yourself. Yeah. Yeah. So well I totally agree and I I kind of best practices reminded myself when I was in that situation and I never had one didn’t put myself as often there as often as you do. Um, but I always said if I ever get in that situation, I’m I’m going to ask for unless it’s like the most obvious, ridiculously easy, but if there’s any interpretation, I’m just going to cover my wise advice. Yeah. I mean, there’s, you know, taking penalty relief from a there’s certain things they’re not going to question at all. Right. And you probably won’t even get call over anyway, although I don’t know. Um, okay. Okay. So, the group goes through the and by the way, you know, one thing we have to say about Sam Burns, he I was really anxious to hear his interview afterward and he was the consmate gentleman about it and he was a gentleman with me. Yeah. And not not a snarl or I mean he was No, but he owned his he just took responsibility. I hit a bad shot, you know, I I didn’t hit the good enough good shots and yeah, it stings and he didn’t blame anyone. And we all know that. Um, and I’m really happy to hear what you said earlier about how in your experience that’s always been the way it is. These guys are very respectful and professional. But I thought not I’m not sure every professional in that situation wouldn’t have chosen that opportunity to say, “Yeah, I kind of got a bad ruling or I don’t I don’t know, I disagree with it.” Or I disagree. He didn’t say a word. He totally took full responsibility. And then of course, I mean, look, JJ Spawn hit some of the most amazing golf shots down the stretch that you’re ever going to see. I tell you, I was standing on the 18th green watching him. That final putt was truly unbelievable that it went in. It was just, you know, it was just his day. Let’s just put it that way. So, did you get any surprising um do you get hate mail? Did you get any like Well, okay. So, here’s what happened after. So, I I go back to the hotel. Bob is well actually he’s texting me and of course you know I’m not looking at my phone when I look at well he answers questions for the USGA Zindex questions right that’s the system that they use I guess it was blowing up so he’s texting me pictures of the questions that people are sending into the USJ and they’re cursing and they’re wow she should never be allowed to rule you oh my god oh just just awful and so then I thought well that’s interesting and so then I start googling and reading social media always dangerous. Oh mg I I will never do that again either. I mean it was it was unreal. Even trying to convince my best friends male golfers. Oh you that just that’s just wrong. It should you know it was just it was amazing the the the feedback. Of course people were rooting for Sam Burns which I love him too. I think he’s just a swell guy. But the fact of the matter is we got the ruling right. He hit some bad shots. He didn’t win. But um it’s just, you know, some people thought we shouldn’t have been playing. Like you questioned that that was it unplayable. Right. Well, this you know, not that it’s kind of like when the somebody gets accused of some horrible thing and it’s on the front page and then the redaction is like, you know, page 50. And that’s kind of what this podcast is, you know. It was like, but no, I mean, I think people who are informed uh get it, but let’s be honest, lot a lot of pe most people are not informed, and that’s the point of Spirit of the Game is to give you a chance to explain the facts and how you uh applied those facts to this situation. I’ll tell you what warmed my heart more than anything was receiving texts and emails from the top dogs at the USGAA uh in including Craig Winner and Jeff Hall and some people that had been watching the telecast going on and on about how what a great job I did and you handled it well and so when you look I’m just curious were you nervous? No. Yeah. Um, and I I’m not surprised to hear hear that because I I know you, you know, well enough to know that you’re very you don’t ever seem nervous. I mean, you don’t you have a very composed way about you. And I think like you said earlier, these are just golfers, you know. Um, but we all know you’re on a stage that’s so much bigger and then you look at just a little bit of peeking behind the curtain of social media and you’re like, whoa, I don’t know if Yeah. So, luckily my picture wasn’t the one that got broadcast all over social media. It was Ben. So, oh yeah, he got to be the fog guy. Yeah, cuz nobody was saying, “Well, who was she?” Because it really wasn’t me getting I was there was somebody did find one picture. But, uh, well, we all know if they could have blamed a woman, they would have. Absolutely. Right. But the picture that that Bob somebody sent to Bob was close enough that you could see there wasn’t temporary water around. Yeah. So, it was kind of a good picture. Anyway, it it was u let’s just say it’s probably my most famous ruling I’ve had to date. Now I have a new one. That’s right. That’s awesome. Another funny thing about temporary water is that and I’m sure you heard the same thing that some people still or still as if it ever existed. It has to be over the sole of the shoe. Do you hear that still? Yeah. I don’t know where that came from. That wives tale that I don’t know if you see it. Just to be very clear here. So I people who are listening this deep into the podcast are very clear. You have to see it. And you have to see it while the player is. So if I’m trumping around and I’m not putting extra weight down and so you’re as you’re exploring the action area of this shot, the water needs to be visible, you know, but is it just I just want to be super clear. Um, was there a clearly there? So, in Sam Burns’s case, there was no visible water really anywhere near the I mean, what if it’s, you know, just a little bit of ways, but it’s not in that area infected by his stance lie or intended swing then. Yeah. Yeah. No, it’s not, it just wasn’t there. And and what people saw on the telecast was practice swings where water was spraying everywhere. Right. Well, that was happening all over the golf course, by the way, to every player. But what this telecast is just, you know, the leaders on the, you know, the 15th hole. Yeah. Denied relief and then, you know, then it kind of blows up. Okay. Well, um, just we have a few more minutes here. Just I wanted to go back. I made a note to go back to talk about anchoring um, which um, I thought we were done with this and it still feels like it pops up now and again when somebody gets accused of their anchoring. How did that decision as as you were chairing the rules committee when that was happening? How did that play out? The what what is your recollection of how you decided to write the rule and all that went into that? Well, there was there was months and months of discussion about how to write the rule, what words to use, how to describe anchoring, and that was really difficult because there’s several ways you can anchor, you know, depending on what you’re doing with the putter. So that was just technically it was just a very difficult um rule to write. But the it from the standpoint of why we did it. I think that uh as as we discussed how you play golf. There needs to be some free swinging of the golf club. And and as we started hearing more and more stories about kids being taught anchoring before they’re taught Yeah. from the very beginning, it it it was on the radar. It was already on the radar before I chaired it. And we were talking about it for a good 18 months before it actually ended up deciding we were going to ban it. Mhm. But I think if you think about how you play golf and this whole free swinging of the club idea concept, it really wasn’t. I mean, you were locking in to a part of your body. And quite frankly, the people that rank anchoring were doing really well, really well. And we we didn’t want to see the game become putting as that’s the only technique people are using, right? It just wasn’t we just didn’t think it right where it becomes criteria of of you know making a stroke right well and you look at what’s I I think the ruling you know who knows I mean it may be revisited but I think I get asked that question a lot and um I love the outcome and I think it’s you know you look at a Batia who’s now using and he’s his potting has benefited tremendously but he’s not anchoring there’s no doubt he’s not anchor you look at Lucas Glover who found new form just by going to I mean so the other thing is it doesn’t seem it definitely put a lid on it you don’t see people who are struggling still go to the long putter people who are putting well don’t so that tells you that probably got it right well and my husband and my father-in-law were both anchorers so they weren’t they weren’t real pleased with all this whole conversation but but at the end of the day I think it was the right right decision for sure So, do you have any personal views on the roll back of the golf ball? Um, I say personal views, I know that um it’s still a ways away. Um, but do you What is your I’m sure this comes up. Um, what are your thoughts on that? Well, I I think what and I don’t sorry to interrupt. Yeah, go ahead. Ran Jerus when he was on No, it wasn’t Ran Jarus. Who was it that I had on? Uh, and they corrected themselves in how they described it. um it’ll come to me. I think it was Mark Hill actually um or even uh it was Kevin Hammer um who’s going to be president of the USGAA. We were we were chatting at the uh senior open at the Broadmore and he corrected himself. It’s not a roll back. It’s a and he gave me a much longer, you know, because I think the term roll back has become has a negative connotation now, but basically trying to put a lid on how far the golf ball goes. Yeah. I I think what people the general public does not understand about what they’re trying to do is um obviously put a lid on it and they need to because we’re we’re having more and more golf courses obsolete with no additional land to speak of and even if there was additional land the cost of maintaining bigger and bigger golf courses is prohibitive. So something had to be done. But I my question is are they doing enough? Because the average golfer Ed will not see a difference in their yardage with this right adjustment. It will be the elite, right? The professionals and the very elite amateurs that have the ball speed, the ball the the swing speed that they have, they’ll see a difference. But you might, but I won’t. No, I definitely won’t. Believe me. you know, if I notice a yard difference, you know, it’s just not it’s not going to impact. Yeah. And I would be in that camp if it’s is it enough? Um, and that’s it’s again so easy to sit on the sidelines and the USJ has to deal with so many stakeholders. And so you have to pick a a date far enough out that allows the manufacturers to adjust. So you’re talking about billions of dollars of industry and um that you’re you’re affecting um and then you you know you you have to be compromised. you just have to keep looking at, you know, what is the right. So I think what I I think the methodology and the other thing that people tend to forget the distance study, they’ve been looking at this for a long time, really long time. And you could easily be critical the other way and say and it’s funny when you ever hear Mike Juan interviewed, he he says, “I got half the people mad at me for doing it at all and the other half are not doing it enough and more quickly.” Yeah. So I think that probably means they’ve they’ve probably picked the right center point on this. Yeah. If I find out anything, I’m going to uh over to St. Andrews for the autumn meeting and yeah, uh we’ll see some RNA guys there. I don’t know if I’ll be able to talk to the rules people, but as I get more information on what they’re attempting to do. If I have anything to share, I’ll I’ll send you an email. While you’re there, I have a favor to ask. Okay. Please talk to those RNA people, which you’re one of. We didn’t mention that you’re on the You’re a member of the RNA. Yes. Correct. Yes, I am. Does that mean you got to vote over there? Do you get to vote on stuff? What are we voting on? Well, we’re voting on changing the name or proposing an alternative name to Stableford and calling it points. So, I in my two minutes of fame on the rules of golf committee, I raised my hand, gained up, you know, summoned up the courage to make a motion. And Mark Nell said, “Ed, you can’t make motions. You’re an advising member.” you would have told me the same thing because I was sitting in the seat of state and regional golf association rep Edmate and I said I’d like to make a motion and Mark said in a friendly way you can’t make motions but go ahead maybe somebody will be persuaded to pass your motion along and I said I think we should change the name of Stableford to points I think stabled is a barrier to adoption I think more people would play it if it didn’t have this silly absurd antiquated name and if that’s not good enough then then we can at least say parenthetically also known as points because with forsomes we didn’t change the name of forsomes but we put also known as alternate shot and I think there’s a much stronger case to be made for points because if you read the definition of stable fur it says points over and over and over and over stable is a points system yes it’s stroke play but it’s a point system so the committee mo moved seconded unanimously approved went to the RNA [Music] down. That’s my That’s my sound effect. That’s the traditionalist of just been there. Why Why change? And I don’t I don’t I I really disagree with that. So, if you wouldn’t wouldn’t mind just when you have a chance over a pint over there. See if you can find out who’s the who’s the who’s the naysayer? Who’s blocking? What do you think of that, by the way? Would you support that change? You know, I’d have to think about it. This the first time I’ve heard heard of it. How long has the word stable been around? It’s been around a long long time, but so was Dormy. So was so many other wonderful words that we retired. So don’t give me that argument. No. And Dr. Frank Stableford was apparently an iconic guy and I’m sure a wonderful gentleman. But in in all seriousness, I do think in the spirit of modernization, you can still keep it there and just say also known as points. And I don’t know I I don’t know if that’s really keeping people from playing it. You also have to think about the RNA governs the entire planet other than North America or whatever the USJ in Australia I guess they play stable almost exclusively or a lot and they probably thought you know that’s going to confuse them if you change it to points because they call it stable and they’ve called it stable forever. So how does that affect the handicap system as far as playing a stable system? Yeah. Well, I again I think you can still keep your gross scores and you know make your handicap adjustments. What I love about points personally is it’s you’ve already you’ve already changed the name in your mind. No, I know. What I love about playing for points or playing stable is it’s affirmative. It’s like the worst I can do here is a zero. And that’s really the spirit of it is your whole day doesn’t go in the toilet because of one bad hole. And I love that. I love the idea that you’re you’re every you’re you’re kind of re reborn on every hole and you have a chance to to play for points once again and the worst you can it’s kind of like that’s what Jack Vickers was thinking with well that’s a lot of the concept match play too 18 individual matches really right so anyway that’s my little bed mates hill to die on if I have a chance to chat with somebody on the rules committee so when are you going over uh September do I leave do you generally go every year I try to, but I’ve mixed in some Ireland trips the last few years. I’m going to Ireland next year, so this will be my trip at least for another two years. Yeah. Have you officiated anything over there? Yeah, I I officiated in 2012 at Royal Lith and St. Ans the Open Championship. Okay. Yeah. Pretty cool. Really cool. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Christie, what time is it? 7 3:52 here. We’re 52 minutes in. That’s perfect. We always we always send that the conversation just it works out just like just like a good run of golf. No more than four hours. Thank you so much for being on. I know this won’t be the last time you join us because you’re just too good a resource for us to learn and and uh you know so thank you for being here and thank you for what you do for us through the foundation for the USGA. I know it’s a labor of love. So it is absolutely a labor of love. So, well, thanks for having me, Ed. And, uh, if your listeners want to criticize my ruling, they can contact you. We’ll share your your email address. All right. Till next time. Thanks, Christie. All right. Thanks, Ed. Okay. Stay tuned for next month. We’ll have another edition of Spirit of the Game. [Music]
