Golf: Chris Wood: My Mental Health Journey & The Open! 🤯

Welcome to This Sporting Planet: The Interviews playlist. 🎙️

In this raw and honest conversation, host Natalie Sawyer (UK) sits down with professional golfer Chris Wood (UK) to discuss his journey through professional golf and his personal battle with mental health.

Chris shares a powerful story of:

Heartbreak at The Open: The emotional toll of coming one shot away from a playoff at Turnberry in 2009, a near-miss that left him “in tears.”

Mental Burnout: His struggles with anxiety and burnout led him to take a break from the game in 2023.

The Comeback: His road to recovery, the “no more trauma” philosophy that guides him now, and the invaluable support from the European Tour.

The Big Goal: The dream of getting his card back and making a triumphant return to the Ryder Cup team.

This is a powerful segment that highlights the despair and resilience behind the scenes of professional sport.

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Chris Wood shared his valuable insights on the sport of golf. He reminisced about his past experiences at The British Open, including the emotional golf moment of finishing just one shot away from a playoff. The discussion highlights the unique challenges and atmosphere of The Open at Royal Portrush.

Well, with the open just around the corner, all eyes are turning towards Northern Ireland ahead of the tournament’s return to Royal Port Rush. Home favorite Shane Lowry emerged victorious the last time the Carrot Jug visited in 2019. And fans will be hoping for a British winner once again. Someone who played in that tournament and then finished third at the Open in 2009 is Chris Wood who joins us now. Uh Chris, hello. Welcome along to this Sporting Planet. How are you? Thanks for joining us. Hi. Hi Natalie. Yeah, I’m good, thank you. Yeah. Um, so a home major coming up and you’ll be hoping to make it through from the final qualifying stages. Just in general, describe what the Open means to to British players. Uh, I I describe it as it’s the one. It’s the one that, uh, certainly when I was a junior, um, that was the one that you hold the putt for on the putting green with with your friends and that sort of thing. it was always for the open. Um the Masters is pretty close behind in in my view. Um but I just think there’s something about Yeah, it’s played on a Lynx course. It’s played on a different Lynx course every year. Um it’s a class event and it’s just the trophy, the clar jug. It just seems like it would just fit lovely into your hands if you to hold it. And I obviously being a British player, the Open Championship, um it’s such a such a test of you the purest form of the game. Um we’ve we’ve obviously seen the US Open recently, a couple of weeks ago, where I played Oakmont a few years ago when it was last there. I love the US Open setup, but the rough just becomes a hack and gouge out. Whereas the Open, you see the ball being run along the ground. Um, you see four irons being hit from 150 yards. Um, there’s no other tournament during the year that you get to see golf like that. So, it just opens up your imagination box for all 18 holes. Sounds like it’s a true test of your game then, which we’ll come on to. We’ll come on to Royal Port Rush uh in just a moment, but as a Brit playing at an open, do you feel more pressure on you to to do well because it’s that home tournament? I actually think the support carries you. Um it I think it lifts you. Um the there’s there’s no cheer like a like an open cheer. So if you’re hitting a shot over a brow of a hill into a green and you can’t quite see the green perhaps you know what a 20ft cheer is or you know what a 5-ft cheer is or you know what it’s running running running into a pot bunker sort of groan is. So I think the atmosphere is is just so good that I I feel like I’ve always thrived on that. Um, and it I find it really inspiring. You’ve had two top five finishes at the Open in 2008 and and 2009 as well. In your first two years of competing, what do you remember most from from those two tournaments? Uh, well, the first one, 2008, I was an amateur. Um, I just competed in the European Team Championships for England and Italy and I flew to Liverpool to qualify at Hillside, which is the golf course next door to Royal Burkedale. And my dad met me there. Um, played a quick practice round. Bear in mind, I’d just come off 36 holes a day for three or four days at the team championship. So, I’m I’m pretty tired, but I think what was I 20? So, yeah, this that’s no excuse. Um, and yeah, back then I think it was 18 a day for two days. Now qualifying as 36 in one day. Um, and I can just remember the drive home from Liverpool in almost disbelief but like just on top of the world really having qualified for the Open, my first major. Um and then the tournament itself uh it’s as nervous as I’ve ever been. Um on the first te uh the first at Royal Burkeale if anyone knows it is there’s out of bangs all the way down the right um sandunes down the left and I sort of just got driver out because it was the biggest head. uh let’s just get the club on the ball and and hit a great drive and I was off and off and running. Um my dad caddied for me during the week which was pretty special. Um obviously I won the silver medal as well which was really what I was going going once I qualified that’s what my aim was to win the silver medal. Uh my coach at the time, we were sharing a room for the week and he was almost on at me every night. You can win this, you can win the open. And so like the belief grew as the week went on. Um and yeah, apart from a couple of caddy hiccups from my dad on the last round, uh I might have finished higher than fifth, but um I mean it’s amazing memories. Um so yeah, that would have been that would that was it. Burked the first one. And the following year I was a pro um at Turnbury and really my memories of that are quite different. Um like I missed the playoff with Stuart Sink and Tom Watson by one shot and I bogied the last by hitting a nine iron out of the semi-ruff 228 yards. Like a nine iron would go 160 yards. That’s my nine iron. So I hit I I got what’s called a flyer where the grass gets trapped between the ball and the club face. So it comes out with no spin. It goes miles and it bound it was right down the flag and it it bounded through the green and into sort of foot long rough with not really much of a lie. It was one of those really um bad timing to get a flyer. Um, but my caddy at the time, Dave McNeely, who’s a legendary caddyy on the European tour, um, we’ve talked about that shot several times since over the years, and he says to me, it it was never a wedge. It was never a wedge. So, we hit the right shot. like it doesn’t make me feel much better. But um that is yeah I suppose like I’m obviously very proud of getting close but to be that close is also like quite hard to accept as well. Yeah. I mean that is the nature of the beast when it comes to golf isn’t it really? that you can get so close to winning something and yet you’re talking about one one shot away from victory at times. Yeah, cuz I cuz I hit a shot which didn’t leave the pin. I mean, I’ve I’ve only seen it back once or twice over the years, but it was within sort of couple of yards of the flag, you know, going down. And yeah, as pros, distance control is a massive part of the game and something that pros are excellent at. And you, if that had come out as we had expected, I’m probably looking at a 20 foot putt for birdie, which in the end would have won it. Um, so yeah, I can remember getting home um late on that on that what it would have been Monday morning by the time I got home and um waking up and I just I was just in tears the following morning like the emotion of it all. So yeah, it was like it’s quite a tough one still now when you when you talk about it really. Yeah, and I can understand that especially when you’re an individual sports person. I think that’s hard as well because it’s only really on you. I know you’ve got your team behind you, but it all it comes down to you at the end of the day. Yeah. You’re in every shot. Um and obviously, you know, you’ve got a caddy and and a great caddy alongside me. Um but yeah, it’s yeah, it’s all on you really, isn’t it? So there you sort of think when will my next chance come? Um, and like you say, individual sport, you know, chances like that only come along so often and it’s, you sort of think you’ve got to grab it while you can. But, um, like I say, I I genuinely have no regrets over anything of that week really. Um, it wasn’t like I hit it on the green and maybe three putted or finished bogey bogey bogey. Um, I birdied 17 to give myself a chance. Yeah, I was right there. So, um, yeah, that’s one thing that, um, helps me sleep at night. Um, we’ll come on to what’s happening with you a bit later on, but let’s, if you don’t mind, if we talk about Royal Port Rush and you played it in 2019, like I mentioned, um, lots of lots of the top golfers who played in that event have spoken about what a course it is. Darren Clark has called it a masterpiece. Shane Lowry who won said everyone was raving about it. What makes it do you think so special then? Well, I think um I’m not I’m not sure how long before or whether it had even been there. I can’t remember how long like the open had been there since like it was a long time if it had ever been there. 50 odd years I think. Yeah. Yeah. So I think the everybody always knew the golf course was the at a level where it is absolutely capable of holding an open championship. I think it became about the infrastructure around the tournament. The open is just a mega event now and you know 300 300,000 people during the four tournament days come and Port Rush is a small village and town and and it was whether that was capable of hosting it. Um the first time I played Port Rush was probably two or three years into my professional career and um Darren Clark invited me over for a couple of days with him just like he sort of we were under the same management company of Chubby Chandler at the time and um Clark was great at taking a couple of players under his wing and giving them you know little bits of advice here and there come and sit with you in the players lounge have to around and and chat and how are things going and the odd text and like he’s he was amazing at that and yeah once he said come on over to Port Rush for a couple of days. So um yeah, we we went out just the two of us and a couple of his friends caddied and it was blowing a gale and I just thought this course is so hard and we got round I think a 16 a par three. I can’t remember the name they call it, but it’s it’s an evil name they give it. And it’s because it’s like say about 220 yards and it just drops off all the way down to the right and like I think maybe the prevailing wind is in out the left. It’s just a horrible hole. Um that sounds about right. Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. And uh yeah, that stands out that stands out quite vividly that hole. Um and then they changed the I think they changed 17 and 18 because we played the Irish Open there. I think maybe in about 2015, a friend of mine, Jamie Donaldson, won that. And um they changed a couple of the finishing holes ready for the Open. And the course is spectacular. Um it’s it’s a tough venue, but again what we’ve experienced playing events in Northern Ireland or Ireland, the Irish Open over the years, the support is just you cannot beat it. Um, and like you say, the open not being there for 60 years, it was always going to be a spectacular open. And I think it came as a bit of a let’s see how we go at Port Rush and you know, six years later the open’s back there. Um, usually it’s sort of seven, eight, nine years before you go back to to a venue. So yeah, it was a it was a huge success and obviously given that Rory’s coming back as a Grand Slam winner this year is going to make it, you know, just as just as good if not better. Yeah, you’re right. I mean, normally it does take a while for an open to go back to a course other than St. Andrews that has the prestige of of hosting it, you know, in terms of years in in lesser time. Um the atmosphere I imagine in 2019 was pretty electric especially when it became clear that Shane Lowry was on course for victory. Yeah. Um well I think how they designed it from the putting green like most players would finish their warm up on the putting green for five, six, seven minutes before their tea time. hit a few putts and then I think it was a bit of a tunnel they built and you walk in under the stands around the first tea and you come out surrounded by the stands and you’re faced with just a dead straight path four out of bounds both sides. It’s just like like that. And it it was all right if it was into the wind or downwind. But if you got a crosswind, you’re now having to hit a two iron or if it was really blowing, maybe a little peg down driver, you’re having to hit it towards an out of bounds sort of thing. It’s the first shot of the open. Um I went with the two iron every day just to make sure. And uh and uh yeah, and then obviously Shane, I think Shane had a four shot lead going into Sunday, which is a challenge in itself to to sleep on a lead like that because yeah, I think Shane’s a year or two older than me, but we grew up playing amateur golf and that brings its own challenge where you you can’t help but think of this time. Yeah. your mind will drift. It’s to to what if. But it’s that’s the challenge then is to be able to get yourself back to a point where you can go out and be present in the day ahead and and and get get over the line. Um Tommy pushed him I think a bit and then I think I remember the last few holes he had he had a little bit of a cushion and and um he could as they say he could enjoy the walk up the last and um you know Shane’s a class player and very natural and um yeah an open is very befitting for his game. Yeah. Uh you mentioned Oakmont and we saw some of the very best fall victim to the challenges that the US Open uh came up with for that one. Um, you’ve mentioned how Royal Port Rush has those chasms and elevations and also the dog leg holes for example. So, what type of golfer when you’re also bringing in the Atlantic Ocean and the unpredictable winds that that comes up with as well, what type of golfer should do well at a course like this? Oh, I I I definitely say somebody who can control their ball in wind because like you mentioned there are some dog legs around there and if you get some crosswinds those fairways then become so narrow and then throw a dog leg in. You’re hitting it down a corner. This sometimes I get it in my home club. There’s a few dog legs and if I if I’m trying to hit driver, I’m you’re hitting it down such a narrow line to your middle of the fairway is so much different to just playing the hole as the dog leg. So I can remember one I think it’s nine. It’s a really tough par four. Um left to right dog leg. All the way down the left is gorse bushes and then as the dog leg turns it’s just knee high rough uh lost ball sort of stuff and um yeah if you get a crosswind on that sort of hole then yeah all of us it’s almost it’s almost a five is a good score you’re probably not losing much to the field so I would definitely say as in any open but around there with with dog legs that they have being able to control your ball we’ve had a quite a dry spring haven’t we and summer so far. So, I’d imagine the ball would be rolling nicely on the on the fairways, running a bit, but yeah, that would be that would be my number one number one thing to point out. Obviously, we’re hoping you’re going to qualify for it. So, you don’t have to say yourself, but who should we be looking at as a as a player in form to win this one? Every golf event now, you just go to Scottish Heffler, don’t you? He’s got to be he’s got to be the favorite. um on on I mean he’s not he wasn’t quite at his best at the US Open and he finished in the top 10 uh the following week. I think he played the following week. Um, and he finished fourth. Um, and it’s just Rory Rory is obviously the home favorite, but he’s the the things he said over the last couple of weeks, particularly at the US Open, are I’ve taken everyone by surprise. I think um they’re genuinely felt like after he won the Masters that the world could be lifted off his shoulders. He how how many years has he been waiting to win the Masters and your game is perfect for Asterori and and it’s almost seems like the opposite has happened where he’s achieved what he’s always wanted and he needs to reset. Um but then I just thought well why doesn’t he just go and see Tiger? Like how did you do it Tiger? like you’ve he completed the grand slam within three four years of being a pro and then went on to win 15 or or or NovakJovich. Rory’s got Rory can get in touch with these people like I I just think maybe someone like that can give him no psychologist go and talk to a player who’s actually achieved it and uh and and take try and take something from that. That’s what I would do. Um because if Rory finishes on the majors he’s got now, Rory should be at double figures for major championships by the time he finish his career. And um yeah, so we’ll see what Rory turns up, but Sheffller’s obviously not won an open. I would imagine now he’s he’s obviously halfway there with the USPGA and and the Masters he’s won, but I’d imagine he’s got the Grand Slam in his sights um you know over the next couple of years. So obviously he needs to win the Open to to get to that stage. And but it’s interesting what you’re saying about Rory Mroy and actually you’re absolutely right speaking to those that have done it have completed what they want to complete as in as you say a career grand slam and then gone on and continues to pick up major wins as you said with Tiger Woods with Novak Jovovic plenty others as well in in tennis and golf but um do you think getting it done at Augusta like he finally did after all of that pressure that had been building and building on him that maybe he’s just used up all that mental energy and he does need that pause. He does need that break. He’s now talking about taking that two weeks off as he said with his family back in the UK just to have that break and you do need it sometimes. Yeah, 100%. Um he, you know, obviously the media tension Roy has, it’s a very intense week and I’m sure he manages it. Sean is manager. I’m sure they managed the load and turned things a lot of things down, but he would have been thinking about Augusta since July last year after the open finished. Yeah, that’s the the open’s the last major of a season. The August is the first. Um, so yeah, I I mean obviously moving back to the UK, he’s he’s moving to to Wentworth, I think, and um that’s going to be a change for him, but perhaps perhaps he needs it just to get out of America for a little bit and and lock himself away in England or and and just live a little bit quieter for a little bit maybe um to to allow his golf to come back. But I was I’ve listened to a podcast um Dan Carter, the sort of All Black legend was talking about it and the culture that the All Blacks team set and they were the number one team in the world for quite a long time and then they broke the record of how how many weeks and that’s exactly what they did. They they wanted to maintain their levels but how do we do it? we’ve we’ve not got I wouldn’t know who it was South Africa or Australia their we haven’t got their record to beat anymore. We’ve passed it. And they used Tiger as like a benchmark of well Tiger Woods has been world number one for 570 weeks or whatever it is. He’s now our level. So it’s taken it away from their own sport, but they’re still using someone as inspiration. And um I hope Rory can do that because he’s so good to watch. and uh he deserves to be a grand slam uh grand slam major winner. Yeah. Um golf as we’ve touched on already is such a mental game and rewarding but tough as well and you took a break in in 2023 and I know you’ve been speaking about mental health and your own game as well. If you’re happy to are you able to tell us a little bit about the journey you’ve been on with all of that? Yeah, I mean I yeah I um since 2019 really I I really struggled on the course. Um I was working with coaches from 2015 to 2018 where I had a year of playing the best golf career and I and I won the BMW PGA. I won in the Austrian Open. I got into the RDER Cup. Um, and towards the end of 2016, I could start to feel things in my swing that weren’t familiar. Um, the ball flight I was hitting became very weak. Um, but I knew where the ball was going, so I was, you know, I was playable. Um, 2017, I don’t think I had any standout results, but I was, I think I finished nicely in the order of merit. 2018 I had three runners up finishes, but I knew this doesn’t feel right. Something’s not right. And I and I went to see another coach and and um yeah, ended up hitting seriously destructive shots with my driver in particular that led me to not have the driver in the bag. Um which when you’re competing on tour, you’re just giving up so much over the course of a week. Um, and then obviously on top of that, the the extra sort of pressure becomes on your three-wood or at the other end of the game, you you having longer putts for birdies, longer putts for par. And I was practicing and practicing and hitting worse shots and feeling like, well, I’m with a great coach. Keep doing what he’s saying. Keep doing what he’s saying. And I got further and further away really from what I feel was my golf swing. So that led me to a point of complete burnout in 2023 where losing my card on tour was what made me stop. Um during COVID the tour froze all categories. Um so you didn’t actually have to play and I I didn’t because of those reasons I was already riddled with anxiety. um and couldn’t I didn’t want to put myself in that situation. So yeah, it sort of took to the point where my I lost my card for me to actually stop. Um and I went and played a couple of events in South Africa early 2023 on the challenge tour because you know you feel like you should play and I was on the phone to my parents. I just after one of the rounds and I just broke down and I was in absolute bits and um I came home straight away came home and uh that was it. And the first time back on the golf course in the summer that year my coach who’s sort of more than a coach like a really good friend was like right let’s get back on the golf course but we’re going out with a six iron and a putter for nine holes. So I didn’t have any trauma attached to those clubs. So it was a it was a light way to step back into the into the game. But weirdly I was watching a lot of golf like I watched it all on the telly and I’m just sat there thinking I can hit that shot. I I can feel how I can hit that shot. And I suppose that’s what’s kept me in it really is I my inner belief has never left me. you have really difficult really difficult times and um you but inside I’ve never ever felt like I want to stop and that’s what’s kept me going um to the point where I am today where I’m still working towards getting my card back. Um, but each day I practice, I feel like I’ve like we’ve got a little saying amongst my team that I work with, like every day we want to make the boat go faster. Like I’m the boat. How do we make the boat go faster? So the foot’s down every day to try and to try and get better. And um it’s become so much more about no more trauma for me. um which is very refreshing to hear from coaches rather than golf swing technique and keep hitting balls and that going down that road again. So so yeah, this has been a difficult period but um you know I’m lucky I’ve got a great great home life. Um busy with four kids but um I’ve got a trooper of a wife who who takes a lot of the hit on that side of things. So, uh, yeah, we’re, um, yeah, I’m in a much better place. Yeah, kudos to Mrs. Wood then. Um, but I I read that you said a few years ago that you wouldn’t have been able to to talk about your struggles, but now you are. Is that because one, it helps you, and two, because we just need to normalize mental health? I Yeah, I mean, like, I think a lot of that is probably to do with my upbringing. like there never seemed to be like my life and my my home life growing up was very sort of flatlined. there wasn’t yeah there wasn’t much in terms of like emotions up and down and that sort of thing which I suppose is is lucky but I genuinely think until you’ve actually gone through a struggle or somebody very close to you like a a husband or wife or very close friend or family member I think it’s hard to I genuinely think it’s hard to understand what that person is actually battling. And that’s what took me a long time to probably understand what it was that I was feeling. And then in my own time, I think when I was ready, I felt ready to talk about things like and when you’re in my like a professional golfer sometimes, you know, you’ll get asked to do an interview and it comes out and it wasn’t like a plan to talk about things. It’s just it just came out. And then I started getting people come up to me and say, I read your art that article you did. Shook my hand. keep going and you’re like that’s nice. Like all of a sudden you’ve got support from outside and you’re aware that actually it’s really helped me and I feel really good about offloading a little bit and yeah, you feel lighter and then you you don’t feel like you’re hiding anything really. So, I would say when I was ready, it felt the right time. And since I’ve done one, I’m I’m proud of myself to be able to talk about it. And I and I think um I’d encourage it in your own time. Um because you’re right, it’s has become a a thing. And certainly within golf, I’m not the only one. Golf, like you say, individual sport. You’re on the road a lot of weeks of the year. You’re in a hotel room miles away from home, missing cuts sometimes and staring at the ceiling of your hotel room and, you know, how do I get home? It’s, you know, it’s that side of the game is hard. Obviously there are within sport the rewards are there but the tough times are dark and um you know you that’s where you have to be strong and um have the right people around you I suppose. Yeah I was going to say it sounds like you’ve got a great support network but I also wanted to know about how the tour did they help you were they good in giving you any guidance or people to contact? Yeah, the tour the tour doctor was the first person I went to speak to really at the Italian Open. Um, you know, just shows how long I was bottling up all this. It was only my wife that knew really. Um, but 2022 at the Italian Open, I went and saw uh our ex rugby player, mass 6’6 lump of a doctor. the sort of guy the sort of guy you think can I really go and speak to him about how I’m feeling um Tim Swan but he’s he’s a legend and uh he was the one who started this the sort of the snowball of putting things in place for me and the tour have got the European tour are very conscious from the medical department to the physio unit we have they’re all very aware of certainly my situation and other players and we’ve got protocols in place we’ve But we have a physio truck, but we now have a a a training and recovery truck alongside that where we’ve got a gym, but you’ve also got a dedicated room where doors will shut, where we’ve got books to read. It’s like a quiet zone. You can put compression legs on. You’ve got six reclining chairs where you can just go and switch off. And that’s like that’s all been driven from the medical department. So, um, they’re right on top of things and, uh, yeah, it’s, you know, things like that are what make players so attached to the deep well, it’s the DP World Tour now, isn’t it? But the European tour, it what once you’ve played it for so many years, it’s sort of like it’s like in your heart like like the RDER Cup, the European Rder Cup team, like when I played it feels like it’s in your in your blood and you just want more of it. So, um, yeah, they’re in a good place, the tour. I love that. I love how they’re thinking about the well-being of players, like you say, having that special room that you can go into and just relax and and chill. Um, how then would you describe where you’re at right now? Um, it’s I would say I’m lacking tournaments to play. Like I I I’ve can get in a a few that I’ve won like on a previous winners category, but that’s not enough. Um, I managed to get an invite last minute to the Turkish Open six or seven weeks ago. Uh, I got a phone call from the tour on the Tuesday night, the week before and then I flew out on the Sunday and and I managed to finish seventh, which to me is like validates the work I’m doing at home because I’ve not played golf for three months like competitively yet the practice I’m doing at home is right on top of it. and I can go to an event, be competitive. That got me into the next event. A top 10 will get you into the following event if you’re not exempt already. Um, where I showed signs of good stuff again for four rounds. Um, and then I played in Austria where I’m a previous winner, which I played okay and missed the cup by a shot. And then I got an invite into Holland. Very similar. Missed the Cut by a Shot. And now I don’t know when I’m going to play again. Um I’ve got hopefully hopefully some positive sounds coming out in August for a couple of events. And then obviously I’m playing open qualifying uh which is Tuesday. So uh yeah, obviously qualifying for the Open would go a long way to try and get my card back. But um yeah, it’s a difficult position because I sort of feel like I’m very close to being ready to come on, I need to play, I need some golf and I I I I’m struggling to to play really. So difficult position, but um you know, we have the Q score at the end of the year which I have to go back to again and and try and get through the hard way. Yeah, I saw after you mentioned that finish at for the Turkish Open how emotional you were when you gave your interview afterwards. And I won’t ask for the secrets of how you’ve been able to remain game ready because I know you don’t want to give that away to anybody else. Um, but just finally then the sort of long-term goals, get that card back, get yourself competing in as many tournaments as you can. Rider Cup, is that something as well that you’ve still got on the horizon potentially? I Yeah, I’d love to play a home one. I played in the States and obviously the crowd is 98% of them are absolutely hating you, totally against you. I’d love to hold a part and feel that European cheer and um there isn’t going to be many better than a Dare Manner in 2027. Um, and like right now when you not got a card, that can seem a million miles off, but like I said, I feel like I know I’ve got the shots there. And um, you know, that would be that would be an absolute mountain climbed if I was to get anywhere near to to to get to that team. But um, there’s a long long way to go. But yeah, th those sort of dreams are what still keeps you going. So why not? Um, I know I’ve done it. That’s the beauty of this. I’ve been there. So, um, yeah, I I still feel like I’ve got that in me. Yeah, you’ve definitely still got the game, Chris. And look, we appreciate you being with us on this sporting plant. Thank you. Thanks very much.